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A better definition of pro-life

Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on
Mon, Oct 29, 12 at 18:01

Is the pro-life message spoken by many not the best representation of how they feel?

In my world, you don't get to call yourself "pro-life" and be against common-sense gun control - like banning public access to the kind of semiautomatic assault rifle, designed for warfare, that was used recently in a Colorado theater. You don't get to call yourself "pro-life" and want to shut down the Environmental Protection Agency, which ensures clean air and clean water, prevents childhood asthma, preserves biodiversity and combats climate change that could disrupt every life on the planet. You don't get to call yourself "pro-life" and oppose programs like Head Start that provide basic education, health and nutrition for the most disadvantaged children.

"Pro-life" can mean only one thing: "respect for the sanctity of life." And there is no way that respect for the sanctity of life can mean we are obligated to protect every fertilized egg in a woman's body, no matter how that egg got fertilized, but we are not obligated to protect every living person from being shot with a concealed automatic weapon. I have no respect for someone who relies on voodoo science to declare that a woman's body can distinguish a "legitimate" rape, but then declares - when 99 percent of all climate scientists conclude that climate change poses a danger to the sanctity of all life on the planet - that global warming is just a hoax.

The term "pro-life" should be a shorthand for respect for the sanctity of life. But I will not let that label apply to people for whom sanctity for life begins at conception and ends at birth. What about the rest of life? Respect for the sanctity of life, if you believe that it begins at conception, cannot end at birth. That radical narrowing of our concern for the sanctity of life is leading to terrible distortions in our society.

Are you really pro-life? Or are you just pro-birth?

If you are pro-life, then ACT like it.

Here is a link that might be useful: source


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: A better definition of pro-life

I saw that. I thought it was excellent.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

I'm sorry, but an assault weapon could be a slingshot. It's not the weapon, but rather the purpose for which it's used. There are literally THOUSANDS of military style weapons in the hands of private citizens that have never ONCE been used as assault weapons. You don't punish those who DON'T break the law and expect that to have a POSITIVE effect on those who do. The person who wrote this is as moronic as they come.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

You don't punish those who DON'T break the law and expect that to have a POSITIVE effect on those who do. The person who wrote this is as moronic as they come.

Nor should anyone write laws to punish me because I was raped.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Agreed


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Excellent, Esh, thank you.

The Great America Cherry Pick is on, and the Great American Hypocrisy is running neck and neck! It's gotten peculiarly ugly. Not only are people picking and choosing bits of the bible they feel compelled to use in the control of others and to assuage their own comfort, they're also picking and choosing their own definitions for different words and phrases, out of no dictionary I've ever read, that they'll use to the same ends. Where does this stop?

Pro-life, by rational definition, DOES mean respect for the sanctity of life, all life, at whatever stage!

Pro-choice, on the other hand, seems to be defined well.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

I suspect those who consider themselves "pro life" have never been in the position where they or their girlfriends have had to consider abortion.

I used to be pro life too, until I was a terrified teenager, sitting on the bathroom floor in my dorm room with a positive pregnancy test in my hand, 2 weeks away from first term finals.

I guess ignorance truly is bliss.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Amen, steph.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Posted by stephf 5a (My Page) on
Tue, Oct 30, 12 at 10:56

I suspect those who consider themselves "pro life" have never been in the position where they or their girlfriends have had to consider abortion.

I used to be pro life too, until I was a terrified teenager, sitting on the bathroom floor in my dorm room with a positive pregnancy test in my hand, 2 weeks away from first term finals.

I guess ignorance truly is bliss.

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I don't suspect, but know that you are wrong, when it comes to all pro life supporters.

That very reason is why a lot of people ARE pro life.

Both sides of the fence, you know.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Really Demi? Why don't you share your "maybe I should get an abortion" story?


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

What a pathetic and crass suggestion, steph.

You're barking up the wrong tree and being very defensive--I support abortion rights up to three months gestation, and perhaps later under certain circumstances.

I still think it is morally wrong, though.

There's a reason young people shouldn't have sex until they're able to be responsible for the consequences.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Stephf, there are just some things not worth poking with a stick...

Ignorance is bliss... you got that right.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Pathetic and crass huh? Okay, if you say so.

I apologize if I misread your post. I thought you were suggesting that those who consider themselves to be pro life HAD been in the position where they needed to consider abortion, and despite this, were still pro life.

I didn't end up getting an abortion. I picked myself up off the bathroom floor, wrote my finals, and had my baby. And despite being young and broke and terrified, I felt okay about it because I CHOSE her, she wasn't forced upon me. We struggled though, a lot. My relationship with her dad almost didn't survive. Actually, all around I think we turned out a lot better than most teen parents. We were both able to finish school and stay together, most don't get even that. Perhaps most importantly, I stopped judging people for choosing abortion or thinking about it (and trust me, I used to judge A LOT before this). I had been there, I knew what it was like, and I knew that the decision is not one people take lightly.

I agree that young people don't think of the consequences, hell, I didn't, but they're still going to do it. Nothing will change that.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Well, steph obviously thinks making crass suggestions about my personal life are worth poking.

The fact is, steph was careful with her words (which I certainly appreciate, I try to be, too) when she said, "I suspect those who consider themselves "pro life" have never been in the position where they or their girlfriends have had to consider abortion. "

I know that that is definitely not the case with all conservatives who are pro life.

Here is all I said in response to Steph's post:

"I don't suspect, but know that you are wrong, when it comes to all pro life supporters.

That very reason is why a lot of people ARE pro life.

Both sides of the fence, you know."

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A respectful, thoughted post to inform that there are indeed others who have been through unwanted pregnancies and are today pro life.

And what do I get back from Steph for that innocuous, reasonable post?

A taunting nasty question about my personal life, insinuating I needed an abortion.

Then YOU Jodik come in and tell her it's not worth poking me with a stick?

"Ignorance is bliss?"

The ignorance is you not knowing what you're talking about.

The shame is the crude and defensive response to me, personally, and your need to interject yourself to pile in on me for my reasonable response.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Words of wisdom and insight from steph--who had to learn the hard way, but did learn and did make a success out of her life. Kudos to you, hon.

You are an excellent example of what "pro-choice" means--having the freedom to choose to have an abortion OR to NOT have an abortion.

Too often the anti-choicers think "pro-choice" means "pro-abortion." They are so wrong. It means being "for" choice.

As the great puritan writer John Milton said long ago (I'm paraphrasing), there is no true morality unless there is a true freedom of choice. To say "no" is not virtuous if you have no choice except to say "no." Only if you are free to say "yes" or "no" can you engage in a moral activity.

And steph is right that young people (and I'll add, lots of older folks also) don't always think of the consequences. Nothing will change that--so true, steph!

Kate


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Thank you for sharing your very personal story, steph. I am happy everything worked out for you. I agree with Kate -- you had that choice to make and you made the choice best for you. That's exactly what pro-choice is.

It's too bad that everyone cannot be as open minded and not judge others, as you learned to do by your experience.

I agree with you that a lot of the people (of course, not all) that claim to be pro-life have never had to make that decision. Or they claim to be "pro-life" because that's what their political party tells them to say. We see it in our politicians -- those that claim to be "pro-life" while telling their mistress to get an abortion.

As to the OP, wonderfully said! It is always amazing to me how those that are pro-life are so able to get us involved in unneeded wars. Or be for the death penalty. Or for not taking care of the poorest of the poor. This really does say it all:
But I will not let that label apply to people for whom sanctity for life begins at conception and ends at birth.

We see that all too often in their attitudes and policies.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

I apologize if I misread your post. I thought you were suggesting that those who consider themselves to be pro life HAD been in the position where they needed to consider abortion, and despite this, were still pro life.

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I am saying that I personally KNOW of several people who WERE in the position of whether to have an abortion or not--some made the decision to have one, some made the decision to have the child--and this was before it became "cool" or socially acceptable to have a child outside of marriage, as so many celebrities now do.

Different decisions and most of the people are pro life.

If you don't believe me, consider Norma Jean McCorvey, who last I heard just a few years ago, was an active opponent of abortion.

She was "Jane Roe."

Most certainly I know of someone who had an abortion that does not approve of abortions as a means of birth control.

Of course that was years ago, before the morning after pill, and AFTER available sex education.

But you can't assume just because people oppose abortion that they've not been in a position to consider one, or even had one.

Your personalizing taunt to me was uncalled for.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

I might add, I am sorry Steph, that you found yourself in this position, and particularly at such a young age.

I admire your determination and I hope you and your family are blessed.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Nice to see you graciously accepted steph's apology if she misread your post. NOT! Cheesh...


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

It's fine Jill.

From what I understand, Norma McCorvey also "changed her mind" about being a lesbian in order to be accepted into the Roman Catholic Church. To me it sounds like she was just looking for acceptance, and unfortunately for her, she had to change who she was to get it.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Ignore the troll.

We hear ya, Steph!


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Posted by maddie_athome (My Page) on
Tue, Oct 30, 12 at 14:42

Ignore the troll.

We hear ya, Steph!

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Who is "the troll," Maddie?


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

I would agree with Kate and Jill, Stephf... and I, too, am glad your choice worked out in the best interest of those involved. Without knowing that choice was there, though, your life could have been so much different at the time. Having a choice is so very important.

I hope you didn't misunderstand my quip... if you stick around, you'll all too quickly learn who is who, and what's up with what. ;-)

"From what I understand, Norma McCorvey also "changed her mind" about being a lesbian in order to be accepted into the Roman Catholic Church. To me it sounds like she was just looking for acceptance, and unfortunately for her, she had to change who she was to get it."

I would say she had to hide who she was to get it, more's the pity. That's not acceptance in my book.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Don't worry Jodik, I've been lurking long enough to know who is who and what's up with what ;)


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Maddie is such a little bomb thrower and hider.

No guts no glory, cricket cricket maddie.

Who is "the troll?"


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Pathetic.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

What's pathetic is someone who constantly uses "they" in an effort to get away with accusing people of being "liars," "thieves," and "trolls" and does not possess the character to own up to their accusations.

But we've known that for a very, very long time.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

That's funny... Maddie is the first one to dig up the real facts and use credible links to bring them to us. The sad thing is... crickets usually follow those links chock full of reality.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Maddie's links are most often very partisan.

Maddie does not determine what topics people choose to discuss and in fact if I see Maddie has started a thread, many times I never even open it.

I know the tenor already and it never, ever, changes.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

I've never been convinced by the pro-lifers stance. But the anti-abortion movement has never been about life. Otherwise, anti-abortionists would have saved some of their fervor, time and money to support women and their children.
Some years ago, I attended an anti-abortion gathering, in which the headline speaker, a man, told the crowd that they would work to eliminate abortion first, birth control second.
To decrease the number of abortions, we need to make it a better world to raise children. Smug, sanctimonious judgement about those who are sexually active does nothing to help.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Perhaps there is another viewpoint besides Pro-Life or Pro-Choice. It's a simple one. Sometimes an abortion is the lesser of two evils.

Think about it. If you were tested and found that you were going to have another defective child because both you and your spouse had the same recessive gene, would you bring another badly retarded child into the world?


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

I would like to get back to the original post with which I agree whole heartedly-I also dont understand a pro-life stance in people who want to destroy the social safety net, who seem to believe that limits on how long the feckless mother of 5 kids can get welfare will miraculously cause her to look after those 5 fids. I dont understand people who want to cut money from our budget for the support of our citizens and spend it on the defense department. I do not get not spending federal dollars for cheap or free birthcontrol. I could go on and on.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Their "sanctity of life" is a fake, as is that "sacred motherhood". Because if it were in fact sacred, then all expecting mothers would be treated the same. ALL.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

patriciae, maddie I agree with everything you both have said. It is why I sat this argument out. It is to upsetting for me to go through. We seem to go over and over the same reasons and get nowhere.

Steph Kudos to you. You have proved to be an asset to the conversation both from the experience side and made this woman smile to hear such a strong woman able to make her choice.


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RE: A better definition of pro-life

Yes, and the good news is that there was a choice.

I believe that is important, at least to a certain juncture.


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