Return to the Hot Topics Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Operation Pillar of Defense

Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on
Thu, Nov 15, 12 at 9:08

Rafah Border Crossing, Israel (CNN) -- Strikes flew across the Gaza border in rapid succession Thursday, as Israel responded to an onslaught of militant rocket attacks by targeting "terror sites."

The sudden increase in violence has raised fears of a widening conflict that could lead to an Israeli ground assault.

At least 196 rockets fired from Gaza have hit Israel "since Operation Pillar of Defense began yesterday," the Israeli military said. In response, the Israel Defense Forces said, it has targeted "156 terror sites."

Sources with Hamas, which controls the government in Gaza, and Palestinian Islamic Jihad gave similar figures, saying more than 140 strikes have hit Gaza and that more than 160 rockets and shells have been fired into Israel.

At least three Israelis were killed and four were wounded when a rocket struck an apartment building in the town of Kiryat Malakhi on Thursday, an Israeli police spokesman said. Thirteen people, including two children, were reportedly killed in airstrikes in Gaza on Thursday, said Dr. Asraf el-Qdra of Medical Aid for Palestinians. Of the casualties, nine were Hamas militants, he said. More than 120 people have been wounded since the Israeli strikes began this week in Gaza, the officials said.

The violence comes after months of rocket attacks on southern Israel by Palestinian militants, Israel said.

The U.N. Security Council held an emergency closed-door session late Wednesday about the crisis.

International diplomats hope to stave off a repeat of Israel's widely condemned 2008 assault that saw its forces go into Gaza after a similar spate of rocket attacks by Palestinian militants.

I am terrified at the thought of how this could escalate. Our thoughts go out to Batya and her family during this time.

Here is a link that might be useful: CNN


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Thu, Nov 15, 12 at 9:41

Thank you. My son is down there now.

You all should know that your media, especially CNN, rarely shows anything but Palestinian wounded. Our hearts go our to those families, who mostly only want a quiet life, same as us. They are the same as us, but you out in the world never see all the pictures.
The situation is complex in the extreme, with Iran and Egypt and Qatar and the US and Britain all involved. No good guys and bad guys here, people. Each side, and there are always more than two, have asked for more than half of their/our troubles, and the Other Side is both right and very, very wrong.

The south looks to be the hot spot "this time", and here in the north we probably won't go through what we went through in 2006, with over a month of daily bombs. This is because Hizbollah has no interest in escalating the northern border, as they are a bit busy with Syria and trying to control their power base in Lebanon. Hamas, on the other hand has a vested interest, as does the current Israeli government, in making sure that there is little progress, as both of them would lose their hawk power base. Sound familiar?

The Hamas rockets have been pouring into southern Israel for months, with nary a peep from the world. An Israeli border tank on the Israeli side was blown apart last week and 4 wounded, and no international outrage. The Occupation, which is wrong on every level, gets all the coverage, and the smaller stories, the ones with people in them not governments, never get airtime. We, all of us, the people, are very tired.

If you ask me, let's put the crazy Isamil Haniya in the same room with the crazy Netanyahu/Lieberman group, and let them duke it out, and please leave the rest of us alone. The propaganda on all the local(both Palestinian and Israeli) is god-awful and inflammatory, as usual. There is no good news yet.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

I've found the best English coverage so far on AlJazeera, fwiw.

Here is a link that might be useful: aljazeera middle east


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

I've been thinking of you, Batya.

And yes, in all this it will be the civilians- on both sides- who are going to be the ones suffering and dying as it always is.

Humans will have to learn one day that when you fire off rockets or drop bombs from planes, the majority of people who are hurt or killed are civilians... the ones who want nothing to do with the stupid conflicts of powerful men who want OTHER people to die for their cause.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Thu, Nov 15, 12 at 9:52

Not always, cp. Sometimes, yes. For an Israeli newspaper with a healthy dose of criticism of the current government and its policies, try Ha'aretz English edition. You can read 10 free articles a month, after which you have to pay for an online subscription, but there is quite a lot of anti-current gov't writers who show the other Israeli voices. Al Jazeera is somewhat better than most Middle Eastern sources, however. Again, it's hard to be non-partisan here, mainly because no one will listen to you if you're not frothing at the mouth.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Thanks Batya and good point, I'll check it out.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Hi Batya I hope your son is safe Iron Dome is intercepting a good number of the rockets I hear!


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Glad to hear you and yours are well. Keep us updated as you can.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

The Hamas rockets have been pouring into southern Israel for months, with nary a peep from the world.

800+ rocket attacks from Jan to October alone. Then last week Hamas racheted it up. Then the inevitable retaliaton, then more rockets today, over 275, this time some near Tel Aviv. Now 30,000 reservists are being called up. There are no words that are good.

If you ask me, let's put the crazy Isamil Haniya in the same room with the crazy Netanyahu/Lieberman group, and let them duke it out, and please leave the rest of us alone. The propaganda on all the local(both Palestinian and Israeli) is god-awful and inflammatory, as usual. There is no good news yet.

The Occupation, which is wrong on every level, gets all the coverage, and the smaller stories, the ones with people in them not governments, never get airtime. We, all of us, the people, are very tired.

Amen. I agree, but I am also sorry you and so many others have to live like this. Many of my friends express the same sentiments. They are weary and don't want to send their sons in harms way or want anyone else's there but at the same time they don't want to have to live in fear -- that goes for both sides.

.

Batya thinkig of you and your son - stay safe.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rocket attacks


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense


It's elections time, no wonder the timing.

That said.

The problem is that there is no justice. Once there is justice there will be peace.

Uri Avnery's take -- "Operation Short Memory":

Netanyahu counts on people not remembering that four years ago Israel went to war in Gaza, killing 1300 civilians in three weeks - which otherwise did not make any significant change in the situation. Netanyahu counts on people failing to remember that just yesterday morning the media reported on people in the communities of the South heaving a sigh of relief at the complete cessation of missiles from Gaza. .

"Binyamin Netanyahu and Ehud Barak have taken the decision - for the second time in a row the State of Israel will conduct general elections under the shadow of war in the Gaza Strip. The cease-fire which already started to stabilize had been broken and shattered to pieces. The inhabitants of te communities of southern Israel, who just started to breathe freely, are sent right back to air raid alarms and the running to shelters.



Did I get this right...it was Israel that broke the ceasefire?



 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

I wish for peace in your area, Batya, and around the globe. There's no reason to murder each other en mass. And for what, really? The greed and hatred of a select few.

Stay safe...


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 16, 12 at 6:39

No Maddie, it's not cut and dry like that, and you really can't point to one "side" as who broke the cease fire.

Around here cease fire is a relative term. There have been Hamas missiles flying into Israel on the Southern border for months, being launched off of the back of mobile trucks. The fact that you don't hear about them in the international media doesn't mean they aren't there - and they've been landing and exploding for months. The Israelis have been waging the exact same (albeit different) small scale, under the radar fight, all the while each saying it's the Other's fault. As to the timing, well, first be aware that I am the last person to be understanding or an apologist for Bibi and his ilk, but let's just set the record straight: The Israeli government has broken as many promises as have the Palestinian leadership. I'd say that's about the only thing they're even on! Both sides of leaders are masters of secret deals, talking out of both sides of their mouths, and promising one thing in private and another, often diametrically opposed, in public.

You'd do well to check some of the more balanced news sources. One can always find fodder for partisan frothing at the mouth finger pointing, and one can always unfortunately find "proof" of the Other's perfidy. In this case, perfidy is rampant, no one is a boy scout, no one's hands are clean. Being able to see this - however it may upset your personal belief system - makes for more rational, fairer and ultimately more productive discourse.

So, no, you did not get this right.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Did you miss the questionmark at the end of my sentence?


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

The problem is that there is no justice. Once there is justice there will be peace.

Simple as that.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

What will it take to being stability to the region? Will it ever happen? My hearts go out to ALL the people in the area and a pox on ALL their "leaders"


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

God bless you Batya.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Well anyway, it is time once again for Israel to use disproportionate force and for the World to remain silent. Let's see, 4 Israeli's killed should mean that Israel will kill a few hundred Palestinians, at least.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 16, 12 at 9:24

I don't even know how to start to respond to your tone, much less your comment.

Let's just say that the World remains silent on a great deal, every day, no matter who does the doing, and who it gets done to.

And please forgive my cynicism, but if god would bless me, she/he'd give my son wings, to fly him out of danger, and let politics be damned. If god had a lick o' sense, he/she'd make sure that no government had the hubris to claim ownership of the Divine, and use it as holy bullets to shoot at our children. And they are all our children.

So heri, if you wish to get a rise out of me, or goad me into defending the foolishness of this or that side, I'm not in the mood.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Stay safe, Batya. And may both sides care more for their civilians than for war.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Batya, you have a right to your cynicism. I can only send good thoughts your way and hope that a miracle will bring a permanent cease-fire to your part of the world. Hearing about the innocent civilians' deaths is heartbreaking.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Thought this one seemed a bit balanced....

snip " To understand how we got here, why tension turned into confrontation, and why at this moment, we need answers to two questions. First, why did Hamas allow Gaza once again to become a rocket launchpad, given that it has successfully imposed quiet during various periods since 2009? And why did Israel choose to get tough now, given that it has been willing to respond more mildly to such provocations in the past?

Start with Hamas. One reading assumes that Hamas was punished for its weakness, that it had proved itself no longer capable of reining in the more bellicose groups - Islamic Jihad and others - which operate on the territory it rules. The Haaretz editor, Aluf Benn, put that view starkly when he wrote that far from being a feared enemy, Israel's Osama bin Laden, Ja'abari was Israel's "subcontractor" in Gaza, charged with enforcing the de facto truce. When he stopped doing his job, he had to be removed: "The message was simple and clear: You failed : you're dead," wrote Benn, quoting a favourite saying of defence minister Ehud Barak: "In the Middle East there is no second chance for the weak."

But it's equally possible that this was no accidental escalation by Hamas, born of incompetence, but rather an act of strength by the Islamist movement. A senior Israeli official told me that Israel had long been aware of Hamas's burgeoning military capacity, its hoard of rockets growing - before Wednesday - to some 11,000, closing on the 15,000-strong arsenal amassed by Hezbollah on the eve of 2006's Lebanon war. Much of this arms supply had come from newly lawless Libya - a "goldmine" says the official - the rest from Iran, before relations between Tehran and Hamas cooled. (Iran was angered when Gaza's rulers broke from Tehran's number one ally, the Assad regime.) Hamas's arm is now more muscled and with a longer reach, as it graphically demonstrated last night, when rockets landed perilously close to Israel's central city, Tel Aviv - the first missiles to do so since the Gulf war of 1991.

But Hamas's new strength is diplomatic, as well as military. The Arab revolutions have redrawn the regional map, much of it in Hamas's favour. Once a pariah, Hamas now sees its own movement, the Muslim Brotherhood, ruling Egypt. Where Hosni Mubarak played broker between Israel and Gaza, often seeking to stay Hamas's hand, Cairo's new rulers feel a grassroots pressure to stand as the ally of Hamas. Witness the Egyptian president's swift despatch of his prime minister to visit Gaza on Friday.

What's more, the Gaza-based leadership has been engaged in a power struggle with the Hamas politburo outside the Strip. Taking the fight to Israel, becoming "the tip of the spear," as analyst Hussein Ibish puts it, is Gaza-based Hamas's way of asserting its pre-eminence.

What, though, of that second question: why did Israel hit back now? The Hebrew press immediately assumed the key date was political, not military: 22 January, when Israelis go to the polls. There are plenty of precedents for outgoing governments taking military action, hoping to create a wave of national unity that will carry them to victory: Cast Lead itself fits that pattern. Binyamin Netanyahu may well have wanted to push aside his Labor rival and prevent his predecessor, Ehud Olmert, making a planned comeback - forcing both to fall into line as patriotic cheerleaders. Similarly, Barak found a way to remind voters of his supposed indispensability. snip end quote

My question would be where do these figures of how many missiles are in Gaza come from. I don't doubt the figures on how many have been fired, its the supposed stockpiles.

Is this just Israel making them up to justify their assassination? And just how did 10,000 missiles get smuggled in / manufactured w/o Israel taking any preventive measures? Seems a bit of a stretch.

Here is a link that might be useful: full column at the link


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Well anyway, it is time once again for Israel to use disproportionate force and for the World to remain silent. Let's see, 4 Israeli's killed should mean that Israel will kill a few hundred Palestinians, at least.

So... when those drones your government sends several times a week are dropping bombs, killing a few hundred Pakistani or Yemeni civilians, that's not disproportionate force because....??

a) It doesn't count if it's America killing people
b) Because Obama's bombings are not to be discussed
c) Because Israel should do as you say, not as you do
d) Pakistani "collateral damage" is not as important as Palestinian "collateral damage"
e) Jewish media and Jewish banks are trying to steal our children
f) All of the above


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

It's so unfortunate that Batya's input was requested and she's subjected to snarky, biased comments.

Batya, I feel your posts have been accurate and fair, thank you. I will keep your family in my thoughts.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Batya, I hope you and especially your son stay safe. Just read Israel approved 75,000 ground troops. Hope Batya's son isn't among them. Anybody's son actually. Gazan death toll so far is 29.

David, I too wondered how Hamas amassed all of those weapons,especially with the blockade in place.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense +

Need to add son or daughter is not among the troops.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 17, 12 at 4:08

Thank you all. Yes, he is probably among them, but there is a "loose lips sink ships" info blackout on the exact details. That's why he has no phone it can be traced and his location pinpointed.
As you can probably tell, this is a very left wing household, and we are supportive in every way of the anti-Netanyahu government. There is a ton if info out there, nearly all of it dismissive of the Other Side. The "ground action" is cocked and ready, and the troops are waiting. There are many voices here that are trying to prevent this action, and many people are writing, especially in Ha'aretz newspaper, that they are furious at the current government for letting things get to this point.
Yes, there are many very nasty people out there who only want to see blood, and they will do atrocious things to goad Israel into be even more nasty, to set up a situation where no one is the winner except their own agenda. They are well funded, well armed and well connected to extremely well-oiled propaganda machines. There are others, here and in the States, that only want to claim every inch they can and make all those nasty Arabs go away, and will do anything they can to achieve their agenda. Both of them do it in the name of God, which is obscene.

In the meantime, our sons and daughters are expected to fight other sons and daughters. It's quite true that Hamas and all the little, extremest jihadists love to put their military offices hiding under schools, hospitals and mosques. It's quite true that Hamas cannot control these smaller cells of terrorists who shoot when and where they want, effectively scuppering any plans their higher ups would like to agree on. It's quite true that they would get no money for schools, roads or clinics, they can only get international support if it's for weapons. It's true that any other country in the world would not stand quietly by while they are being bombed daiiy for months.
It's also quite true that any agreements or freezes made by Israel have been undermined by behind-the-scenes goings on which negate any promises made. It's quite true that the new combination of Netanyahu's party with that creep Lieberman is nothing more than political prostitution to gain more power in the Knesset, by pushing the most rightist military agenda and presenting it to the citizens as "we have no choice".
I repeat - there are no good guys here. Asking the hard questions of Israel, which is demanded by others like me, must also be asked of Hamas and their patrons, and the answers are bitter and disturbing in the extreme.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Bravo, and once again, thank you.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

For Batya:

Here is a link that might be useful: franti


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Sun, Nov 18, 12 at 11:18

Why thank you althea! We met him here when he played for a benefit for young men who refused service and were jailed.

Still waiting for the poobahs to decide on a ground war. Idiots, all of them. It's clear that it's the last resort, but Hamas won't stop the rockets, they keep shelling. For a cease fire, the shelling must stop and either Hamas can't or won't stop it. Idiots all.

The boy is tired, worried, bored (the army's hurry up and wait) but we're devoutly hoping that the word won't be given. It's the last thing any of us, all of us, need.

Thank you all for your prayers, thoughts and concern.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Batya, I appreciate hearing an anecdotal perspective from a point much closer than ours. And especially a non-fanatical perspective.

The nytimes shows photos of mourners at scenes of missile strikes both Israeli and Palestinian. If only those families could view each other in real time.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

the reason the Israeli's struck back is the rocket fire increased 2 weeks before that the Hamas guy killed in first strike was responsible for the rocket fire.
As for Gaza if they did not want war with Israel they should not elected Hamas as there government. the problem is all these ceasefires if the two sides have been allowed fight properly there would have been end by now.
that is what it took to end conflict between the Tamil tigers in Sri Lanka. Wars have to have winner and loser. Or conflict is not resolved.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Israel struck the homes of seven Hamas military officials today.

They were the HOMES... the wives and children of these men are being killed simply because they are related. More "collateral damage" (AKA women and children who don't matter).

This is the same thing that happened in Libya , where western forces bombed the homes of Ghaddafi family members....killing children, wives and grandchildren in hopes of hitting (or punishing?) Ghaddafi.

Obama stated that no country of the world could be expected to sit back and do nothing while rocket rained down on their country day after day. Yes, I understand that and I agree. Israel should not have to live in fear of the constant rocket attacks.

But again I am looking at a situation where the innocents are paying their price in blood, both Israeli and Palestinian, for the warmongering of powerful men. And not white men, surprise surprise. So much for the idea that only old white men are the root of all evil.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

But again I am looking at a situation where the innocents are paying their price in blood, both Israeli and Palestinian,for the warmongering of powerful men.

Those men are probably arms merchants. They would be most threatened by a cease fire and peace.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

if there fathers are terrorists it is same if you father is mob boss soon later another monster takes the dad out or the FBI knocks down the door. When you plan terror you put you family on line.
As for ceasefires Hamas has broken more then I can count and I have not tried. but when break a cease fire you have no expectation the you opponent will hold back. what surprises me is the Israeli's have held back so long.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

what surprises me is the Israeli's have held back so long.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, cob. I admit that Israel does put up with a lot of attacks from Palestinians before it strikes back.

What I disagree with is bombing civilians as a strategy. And when they aim for the homes of these Hamas leaders, they are pretty much guaranteed to kill the innocent wives, children or grandchildren of these guys. Or when they bomb a public place that civilians will be killed on the chance that they may kill their intended target.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Batya., I have been reading and tryin to understand this conflict and I have a better understanding after your analysis.

All I can say is stay safe, and pray your son comes home safe. It has to be hard living with this constant conflict. It has gone on for too many years.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Batya, my thoughts are with you and your family. It's such a complicated situation, and I hope it's resolved without further escalation.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 19, 12 at 9:55

"What I disagree with is bombing civilians as a strategy."

Even though I am not at all supportive of Bibi/Barak et al and have vocally demonstrated my disquiet with their hawkish policies, here I must set the record straight. Remember I am not for one side or the other, but rather for the truth to be told about both (all) sides and the treachery practiced all arund.

The Hamas strategy is to hide their military offices, weapons caches and high commanders under schools, mosques and hospitals. They have been doing this for years, and so when a weapons cache, for instance, is destroyed the civilian layer of innocent protection blows up with it. There they can then cry "You kill our civilians!" This is more than a strategy, they acknowledge this and insist that they do it so it will cost Israel in the propaganda wars when the pictures come out, and drown out the fact that the weapons below were saved for bombing Israeli schools. Yes, they say this to each other quite often, it just never reaches the international press. That's so you can be outraged too, without having any left over for buses that blow up in Haifa.

The talking heads on the Israeli side have been stating publicly for days that they are resistant to giving the order for ground troops to go into Gaza specifically because they know that Palestinian civilians will be the first ones to suffer. Hamas know this, and will not stop shooting, specifically to force Israel to give that order, which will throw their own citizens under the bus in order to make the world think that they are poor, innocent victims. Worked before, didn't it?
The Palestinian people have nothing to say about this, as if they do they are silenced. Please believe me when I say that nothing disgusts me more that Hamas's behavior, unless of course it is Israel's Foreign Minister every time he opens his mouth.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

Batya, my condolences on your personal and national troubles. Hard to believe that the Palestinian Arabs and Jews and other residents have been killing each other for most of my lifetime. I cannot remember when it was not so. Nothing will change in this war of attrition.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

batya, first of all, I'm so very sorry that your family and your country Are going through this. I cannot even imagine.

My question is, if Israel stands down and does not respond, will Hamas stop the shelling of Israel?


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

The Hamas strategy is to hide their military offices, weapons caches and high commanders under schools, mosques and hospitals. They have been doing this for years, and so when a weapons cache, for instance, is destroyed the civilian layer of innocent protection blows up with it.

Batya,

I understand what you're saying and I know it's true. Hamas has no problem with using human shields for their weapons stores, etc. I wouldn't dispute that.

But the latest bombings by Israel, they hit the Hamas leaders' homes knowing full well that families live in those homes.

I'm not trying to minimize the role that Hamas plays and yes, the Palestinians also target civilians and families. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was trying to place all the blame on Israel. I condemn the targetting on innocents no matter WHICH side.

Perhaps I'm just holding Israel to a higher standard of ethics.


 o
RE: Operation Pillar of Defense

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 19, 12 at 12:45

Maybe, at least the shooters that Hamas controls. The others? Probably not, and that is one of the problems. Nearly every interviewee/talking head here is advising against the ground war, also in Ha'aretz newspaper. I can't really disagree with a lot of the news article from Al Jazeera from the other thread, but again, it's complex and no one writer has all the angles.

Israel has not responded to shelling for months, on the other hand, the military option on either side is worthless except for more fighting. I found this link, you might like it, I did.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ha'aretz article


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Hot Topics Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here