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Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 12:51

Republicans spend a lot of time picking on Obamacare, mostly pointing out problems with the federal website and lately focusing on Obama's statements that they could keep existing policies.

It is now clarified that keeping existing policies is not always possible because insurance companies are exiting some markets and also changing existing policies. Insurance companies are responding to profitability issues for themselves, a perfect example of capitalism at work as they adjust their offerings.

The website problems will be fixed. In states that have state-run exchanges there is already significant evidence that people are enrolling and finding policies that work for them.

All of this will get worked out, I have no doubt.

In the meantime, Republicans offer no solutions of their own. Rather than proposing alternatives or changes to the ACA, they offer only criticism - and all or nothing proposition.

They are obviously hoping that no one will notice that they are sitting on their hands. I hope the American people are taking note of their inactivity. Republicans have nothing to offer the American people in terms of progress on this issue that hits every American.

That is the real shame. Republicans would rather finger point than help.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Not only do we not hear positive ideas on how to extend and improve health care insurance but they also have their heads placed firmly in the sand with regards to an "exit" strategy for the ACA should the GOP ever regain the WH.

They are being lied to just as much as they claim the Dems were lied to...maybe even more.

The GOP is not likely to repeal the ACA. They certainly can't win an election on that platform , proved that last election, and especially given the fact the ACA will be well entrenched .

Are they going to run on a platform that says they WILL TAKE AWAY plans you like? Don't think so.

Are they going to tell people with preexisting conditions that , hope you liked your coverage while you have but we are taking it away ? II don't think so.

Oh and all you folk with your young adult kids on your policy..they are officially uninsured. I don't think so.

Unwinding the ACA will be costly and hugely unpopular and they aren't going to do it. Instead they will change it...

So why not be honest and tell the truth now? Why are they lying and saying they will repeal it.?

They will before the next federal election but in the mean time... they are hoping this does some little thing for them in 2014....I suspect that once again they are misjudging the American MAJORITY


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

None, None absolutely none! There is that plan a lot of them like to sign their children up with you know to get them on their own insurance plane I think it's called the AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.

Before the law, dependent children often "aged out" of their parents' health plan at age 19, or 22 if they were full-time students. Last year, an estimated 7.8 million adults between the ages of 19 and 25 were able to either join or stay on their parents' plans, according to the Commonwealth Fund's 2013 annual tracking survey. The figure includes 3.3 million young adults between 19 and 22 who were not full-time students and 4.5 million young adults age 23 to 25.

Idiots on other websites saying that I must be getting a subsidy in order to get such an affordable plan with dental! Nope will be paying it myself. Zero deductible Platinum plan.

As the rethugs say I GOT MINE!


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"Last year, an estimated 7.8 million adults between the ages of 19 and 25 were able to either join or stay on their parents' plans, "

And all of them of voting age........


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by chase z6 (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 13:26

"Last year, an estimated 7.8 million adults between the ages of 19 and 25 were able to either join or stay on their parents' plans, "

And all of them of voting age.......

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ROTF--talk about short sighted!

Don't count the votes so fast.

Does anyone think these people are going to be so happy when they no longer can be on their parents' policies?

Next year, the year after, three years out these people will be over 26 years old and stuck with EXTREMELEY HIGH, mainly unaffordable premiums to pay for Obamacare.

The model DEPENDS ON IT.

And with Obama's promise to get jobs back being one tired old failure to materialize, well, things look pretty bleak.

I guess having a generation of bright and talented young people unable to find employment, depending on the welfare of Medicaid or paying so much in premiums that can't afford housing, food or transportation is just the fast track to Socialism, so I'm sure Obama and the Democrats are happy to see this happen.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 13:39


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Except that a whole bunch of new young voters will be covered by their parents policies. You gonna just drop them?

As far as the contention " these people will be over 26 years old and stuck with EXTREMELEY HIGH, mainly unaffordable premiums to pay for Obamacare. "

That is NOT the experience my 28 year old niece had. She got a much better plan for a better price...she is a very happy camper. Not sure why she was able to find a good plan at a good price and others can't ...maybe she is just special.

The ACA cannot realistically be repealed...they are lying to you.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Any law can be repealed.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by chase z6 (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 13:40

Except that a whole bunch of new young voters will be covered by their parents policies. You gonna just drop them?

As far as the contention " these people will be over 26 years old and stuck with EXTREMELEY HIGH, mainly unaffordable premiums to pay for Obamacare. "

That is NOT the experience my 28 year old niece had. She got a much better plan for a better price...she is a very happy camper. Not sure why she was able to find a good plan at a good price and others can't ...maybe she is just special.

The ACA cannot realistically be repealed...they are lying to you.

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I have no interest in repealing the ACA.

It's affordable because that word is in the name, right?

I guess the question is, affordable to whom?

Certainly not the ones footing the bill, but those getting free health care at the expense of others, of course it's "affordable."

Nope, don't want it repealed.

The efforts to repeal it were defeated, that's the way it goes, this is the pinnacle of Barack Obama's efforts and that of the Democrats--let's live with what they have produced and bragged about.

No repeal, let's let it play out.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

demi writes: "Does anyone think these people are going to be so happy when they no longer can be on their parents' policies?"
Would you prefer that they be permitted to remain on their parents' policies even longer? Why do you assume that "bright and talented young people" will be unable to find jobs? And how do these prophecies connect to Socialiem?

My questions are merely rhetorical, demi, though that won't stop you from sputtering at me.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by pidge z6PA (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 13:47

demi writes: "Does anyone think these people are going to be so happy when they no longer can be on their parents' policies?"
Would you prefer that they be permitted to remain on their parents' policies even longer? Why do you assume that "bright and talented young people" will be unable to find jobs? And how do these prophecies connect to Socialiem?

My questions are merely rhetorical, demi, though that won't stop you from sputtering at me.

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Pidge, if you had not been so rude as to suggest than when I post I would be "sputtering" at you, I would gladly answer your questions.

Posters who are polite and don't make nasty comments like you did are worthy of an answer, and I respond to those posters whenever I see their posts asking for clarification or explanation.

You, my dear, do not make the cut in that regard.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

I created this thread so that conservatives could demonstrate what Republicans have to offer instead of ACA.

I haven't seen anyone demonstrate anything yet.

conservatives - got anything to share?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

One of the things I always find very amusing about you, demi, it your insistence on replying to a poster while telling the poster that he or she is not worthy of your response.

Even more amusing is your referring to me as your "dear." As if.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

And when the 26 year old turns 27 and doesn't buy insurance, then what?....What's your solution then?

BTW, a 26 year old on parent's policy does not have any effect on premiums. It's a family plan, not an individual plan.

Do more research.

Everybody needs to pay their own way. Everybody. That means public employees, teachers, union employees, corporate employees, politicians, ...everybody....everybody.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by pidge z6PA (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 13:59

One of the things I always find very amusing about you, demi, it your insistence on replying to a poster while telling the poster that he or she is not worthy of your response.

Even more amusing is your referring to me as your "dear." As if.

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Thanks, dear.
Bless your heart.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 14:06


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Everybody needs to pay their own way. Everybody. That means public employees, teachers, union employees, corporate employees, politicians, ...everybody....everybody.

Public employees, teachers, union employees, politicians - most of these have employer-provided policies. It would seem that anyone with such a policy is, in fact, paying their way through their employer.

Did I misunderstand?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

When I say pay your own way, I mean 100% of out your pocket. That's the fair way.

Unbundled health care from employment.

A 5% to 12% premium contribution is hardly paying your way, it's the taxpayers paying their way.


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So brush am I to understand that you support the elimination of all employee based health insurance, and the elimination of Medicare and Medicaid........

"A 5% to 12% premium contribution is hardly paying your way, it's the taxpayers paying their way."

Is that how you feel about the military too?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Part of an employee's insurance payment is out of pocket insofar as it is considered part of a employee's salary.
I know that the insurance premiums that my employer pays for me are part of my compensation package, not separate from my salary but part of it.

I am not touting employer insurance here, just saying how it works for me.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by pidge z6PA (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 14:29

Part of an employee's insurance payment is out of pocket insofar as it is considered part of a employee's salary.
I know that the insurance premiums that my employer pays for me are part of my compensation package, not separate from my salary but part of it.

I am not touting employer insurance here, just saying how it works for me.
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For these people, is that part of your salary included in your tax return as income?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Medicare and Medicaid?

Wage earners pay their own Medicare. I pay 2.9% because I'm self employed. The medicare premium is levied on every penny earned. It's not a handout. I will also pay Medicare premiums when I subscribe.

I'm not alone. Most sane people know that health care should not be bundled with employment.


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It will be taxable soon, then the whining will begin.

The tax free treatment of health care insurance benefits is a whopping $180 billion tax break to employees. We need to fix that, soon.

This post was edited by brushworks on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 14:48


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I absolutely agree it should NOT be bundled with employment. No argument there.

I do however think that , even though you contribute to your Medicare, the tax payer is still picking up part of the tab. Unless you are going to tell me that you could get the same coverage on the open market.


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I had no idea the employer contribution wasn't taxable. It's a taxable benefit here...and if it's considered part of compensation it should be.


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Multiple mortgages are also deductible Chase! I bet that seems insane in Canada .
Point was of all those millions added on to their parents Insurance once again it's a large number of Republicans going out for it. Once again the obvious is being ignored in a crappy little ideological shell game.
If they are being covered by insurance they aren't sitting in emergency rooms at the last minute.
What is the republican Plan?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Next year, the year after, three years out these people will be over 26 years old and stuck with EXTREMELEY HIGH, mainly unaffordable premiums to pay for Obamacare.

Sounds good if you want to scare some people. But, it's not what the reality is showing. People are finding affordable health care on the exchanges.

Doesn't reality suck when you have an agenda?

This post was edited by jillinnj on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 15:58


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And the really strange thing is, the ACA was a Republican plan before the name and a few details were changed... and it went from a fine plan to a sudden catastrophe because of that name change?

Seriously, where are the Republican suggestions to replace the ACA if it's that much of a catastrophe?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

See demi's post above. They don't want to replace it. They are downright giddy because they think it will fail and will win them the next election. And if it were to fail, and millions of Americans were hurt by that, they'd rather have that happen than do anything to work with Obama and the democrats to improve it. At least demi was willing to outright admit it. Unlike nik that won't even answer a simple question.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"Any law can be repealed."

Works for me. Unfortunately, Obamacare's victims have no choice but to live with the law of the land right now. On the brighter side, they will learn a great deal by living under a law that was imposed on them by their betters and "for their own good."

Justice will have to wait for next year. That's when citizens can finally "thank" the dictatorial nannies in the US Senate for throwing them into the obamacare pit without insurance and without the $2,500 savings they were expecting.

Do remember these friends of obamacare next November. You won't be alone!

Senator Mark Begich (D-Alaska)
Senator Cory Booker (D-N.J.)
Senator Chris Coons (D-Del.)
Senator Dick Durbin (D-Ill.)
Senator Al Franken (D-Minn.)
Senator Kay Hagan (D-N.C.)
Senator Mary Landrieu (D-La.)
Senator Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.)
Senator Mark Pryor (D-Ark.)
Senator Jack Reed (D-R.I.)
Senator Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.)
Senator Brian Schatz (D-Hawaii)
Senator Mark Udall (D-Colo.)
Senator Tom Udall (D-N.M.)
Senator Mark Warner (D-Va.)
Senator Michael Bennet (D-Colo.)


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By then it will be working well and they will be heroes. Wonder what the GOPers are going to offer instead?

By then they will be wanting to play ball and work to make the ACA better...or I guess they could run on taking away the health insurance benefits people have and like.


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The medicare premium is levied on every penny earned.

I hope that you're not personally preparing your tax returns because the above statement is not true.

Surely your wife is preparing Schedule C and Schedule SE properly.

I will also pay Medicare premiums when I subscribe.

And you will be allowed to deduct those premiums from reported income.

Mrs. Brush needs to give you some lessons in tax preparation. Or else muzzle you so you don't embarrass her professionally.


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Now In Nik's State there are thousands of people who don't qualify for medicaid because they make too much & can't afford insurance..
So Go Screw!


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Unfortunately, Obamacare's victims have no choice but to live with the law of the land right now.

Where are the victims? You even started a thead just for them. Seems you had a party and no one came.

On the other hand, some of the HT posters told of their experiences which were contrary. That said I am not saying there isn't anyone who will have a problem but the percentages are very small compared to those who will benefit,


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Same BS form the same crow who don't need it. The same ignoring the same & million youn people already signed up for it accept for a whats gonna happen when they ain young any more. Really?


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Nancy, I sincerely hope that you are not preparing your own tax returns. Brush is correct. All earned income is indeed subject to Medicare taxes. Earned income subject to Social Security is the one with the ceiling. Earned income includes amount other things wages and self employment income. Earned income does not include interest, dividends, gains from sale of stock, net income from rental property, etc.

From the following link to a tax topic on the IRS website:
There is no wage base limit for Medicare tax. All covered wages are subject to Medicare tax.

The withholding is not tax deductible.

You can deduct Medicare Part B, C and D as medical expenses on Schedule A. However, you must itemize in order to do so. So first you must have medical expenses that exceed 10% of your adjusted gross income starting in 2013. (That increase was part of Obamacare) Second, your medical expense, qualified mortgage interest, allowable taxes, contributions, casualty losses, investment interest and other expenses should exceed your standard deduction.

Edited to add - self employed taxpayers may qualify to take an adjustment to income for health insurance.

Here is a link that might be useful: Social Security and Medicare withholding rates

This post was edited by jlhug on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 19:33


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Brush is self-employed and not "every cent" of his self-employment income is subject to medicare tax as he claims.

He pays on his net self-employment income -- Schedule C -- which is not very likely to be every cent he receives from his business. Net income transfers to Schedule SE for calculation of self-employment FICA and medicare.


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The same ignoring the same & million youn people already signed up for it accept for a whats gonna happen when they ain young any more. Really?

Yeah, you caught that too? That's their argument against the ACA? Someday those young folks will have to get their own policy, so the ACA sucks. I call that grasping at straws.

"Any law can be repealed."

Works for me

Looks like we finally have nik's answer. Repeal the whole thing. More of the I got mine, so screw you attitude from those compassionate conservatives.


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I understand what you are saying. One doesn't pay taxes on gross receipts or sales. And I can understand why you called gross receipts or sales, earned income.

However, the IRS defines earned income as net earnings from a business, not gross income. When I talk about earned income, I am talking about the amount that is the bottom line of Schedule C that transfers to Schedule SE and the 1040. I'm pretty sure that is what Brush was calling earned income as well. Bush did say every penny earned, not gross receipts.

I understand the confusion but I do not believe that Brush misspoke.

Here is a link that might be useful: What is earned income.


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Hold the presses. Obama plans to make an end run and exempt the unions from taxes on their insurance plans. But of course.

The American Health Care Reform Act....republican plan..

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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From what I can see, we will be better off if my 20 year old son applies for his own policy. He is making below poverty level wages and therefor will be eligible for Medicare or with huge subsidy's that will be almost free . FREE. That is $200 less I have to pay.

It seems that a large number of those in his age group will also be in that category.

More drain on the taxpayers if that's the case. Also, having all those young people get insurance was the base for this whole plan to work but not if they get it for free.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

I do not believe that Brush misspoke.

I believe that Brush tried to portray himself as a victim of injustice in that he pays the full rate on medicare [and FICA] as opposed to those who receive a W-2 form, and who *also* have employer-supplied health insurance. He has ways of reducing his income subject to medicare contributions that are not available to those who are employees.

And while Brush is lashing out at those who do have employer-supplied health insurance and don't have to pay as much for coverage as he does, it should be noted that it was his choice to be self-employed rather than an employee.


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esh: "I created this thread so that conservatives could demonstrate what Republicans have to offer instead of ACA."

Um, search your conscience; I think you had an ulterior motive here. Like starting a contentious thread. Good job.

I do not have a better plan; that is way above my pay grade ;-)


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

No, you're wrong elvis. If the conservatives are so determined that Obamacare is the wrong path, I think they should be telling us what the right path is.

This is the place to say that.

Thank you for admitting that the Republicans have no plan.


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  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 19:06

"any law can be repealed"

Your right, but the republicans will not repeal the ACA (aka obamacare).

And you can take that to the bank ...


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

The American Health Care Reform Act


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

me: "I do not have a better plan; that is way above my pay grade ;-)"

you (esh): "Thank you for admitting that the Republicans have no plan."

What are you, 12? Read the above carefully, and don't make assumptions.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by jillinnj (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 16:04

See demi's post above. They don't want to replace it. They are downright giddy because they think it will fail and will win them the next election. And if it were to fail, and millions of Americans were hurt by that, they'd rather have that happen than do anything to work with Obama and the democrats to improve it. At least demi was willing to outright admit it. Unlike nik that won't even answer a simple question.

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Not true.

I didn't admit that I want anyone to be hurt--that is a lie.

But I do want Barack Obama's Brainchild to be given a chance--just as it is written.

Put up or shut up Democrats.

Let's see what you've got, it's supposed to be so wonderful.

So, let's see what happens when you hold all the cards and your best effort has arrived and is here to make life wonderful for everyone.

We owe it to Barack Obama--he won, he owns it.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

I think you had an ulterior motive here. Like starting a contentious thread.

Or perhaps she started ths thread simply to get an answer to a question that has been asked but never answered which is not contentious unless one finds asking a legitimate question contentious.


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But I do want Barack Obama's Brainchild to be given a chance--just as it is written.Put up or shut up Democrats.Let's see what you've got, it's supposed to be so wonderful.So, let's see what happens when you hold all the cards and your best effort has arrived and is here to make life wonderful for everyone.
We owe it to Barack Obama--he won, he owns it.

President Obama does not "own" healthcare in the United States and he does not own this legislation. The American people do just like we own every other law. It is the law of the land, not the law of Obama.
And when you use "we" in this context you are referring to a group of sore losers and Obama haters that have done everything they can to achieve their right wing ideological and political ends. They would rather see healthcare reform fail than work with others to make it better. This is like climbing in a lifeboat and rowing away, then laughing as others drown. It is a sickening and sarcastic strategy.


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started ths thread simply to get an answer to a question

Exactly.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Yes they have. How could you miss this.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"Put up or shut up Democrats.Let's see what you've got, it's supposed to be so wonderful."

Yep. This is not the GOP's problem. Democrats chose to create their hideous "baby" exclusively with Democrat DNA. When you have "parents" like Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Dick Durbin, Al Franken and Kay Hagan, you simply amplify their grotesque spawn. Obamacare eats money, kills insurance policies, and has spread nothing but noxious gas and manure on the American people since the day it was born.

It's hilarious that once Americans started "finding out what is in it" Democrats started demanding "alternatives" that would HIDE what's in it! LOL! Heaven forbid an informed electorate head for the polls next year.

Democrats did non need any Republicans to help them pass their legislation. They own it.

The only "alternative" is for the president to keep his word.
If he won't do that, Democrats who made the decision to participate in spreading that lie about people keeping their plans must be held accountable for the suffering they've caused and that he refuses to end.

The GOP should stand back until every American knows who to "thank" for lying to them and passing legislation that they KNEW would upend their lives.


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That's right Nik!

Republicans and Conservatives now know their place--because they didn't have one in crafting this law and their input was not needed or welcome--neither was that of the citizens of this country, contrary to the President promising that they would have input and see it all on CSPAN and he would have the most transparent presidency.

So, they know better, this is their baby and no one was welcome to have anything to do with it, so they own it all.

No one should amend it or haul any fat out of the fire.

Let's give it a chance to work just like they wrote it.
They've have YEARS to get this right.

We're sitting back and watching.

So far not many people are interested in the exchanges, only in sighing up for Medicaid and continuing to ignore the law and just show up at emergency rooms when they need it. Of course still not everyone can get on the website to see about the exchanges, and some are finding out they were happy with their plans and it was a bald faced LIE told to them they could keep them and now they are losing their plans and having to take the time and trouble to get new policies--especially people already sick and suffering and in the middle of treatment--and finding out they have to pay a lot more when they were happy with what they had.

Republicans should have addressed health care when they had the chance and they hear that from me anytime they call although I've repeated ask them to never contact me by mail or phone.

They did not.

Democrats did and we see what we've got.

So, it's the law of the land let it roll.

I'm ready.
I sure hope the economy and sick middle class working Americans are welcoming Obamacare.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Republicans should have addressed health care when they had the chance

And since the GOP decided not to participate in writing the Affordable Care Act, they really have no standing to criticize it.

But that won't stop them, will it?

Oh, and don't forget Benghazi.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Yep. This is not the GOP's problem.

The fact that the GOP is not putting forth an alternative is certainly not a problem FOR ME.

Continue to just bash and duck the issue of what you've got to offer. Works for me.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

The American Health Care Reform Act


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

The deformed creature called the ACA is in fact what it is in an attempt to get the GOP to recognize their own child-their own creation which they disavowed the moment the Democrats took it up and tried to actually pass a bill based on the GOP ideas. That is isn't something better is the result of putting together a bill that was filibuster proof. Any one remember this?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

The American Health Care Reform Act

Fully repeals President Obama's health care law, eliminating billions in taxes and thousands of pages of unworkable regulations and mandates that are driving up health care costs.

Spurs competition to lower health care costs by allowing Americans to purchase health insurance across state lines and enabling small businesses to pool together and get the same buying power as large corporations.

Reforms medical malpractice laws in a commonsense way that limits trial lawyer fees and non-economic damages while maintaining strong protections for patients.

Provides tax reform that allows families and individuals to deduct health care costs, just like companies, leveling the playing field and providing all Americans with a standard deduction for health insurance.

Expands access to Health Savings Accounts (HSAs), increasing the amount of pre-tax dollars individuals can deposit into portable savings accounts to be used for health care expenses.

Safeguards individuals with pre-existing conditions from being discriminated against purchasing health insurance by bolstering state-based high risk pools and extending HIPAA guaranteed availability protections.

Protects the unborn by ensuring no federal funding of abortions.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Obviously the conservatives aren't willing to talk about whatever they have. So I guess it's just not that good.

mrskjun, do you have something specific to share? If it's great - tell us about it!!


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

LOL. mom just posted it esh...I've answered the question at least three times on this thread and I believe on another. What more do you want?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posting the name of the proposal does nothing in terms of discussion. If you truly believe in it, believe that it is better, let's talk about what parts are better and why.

What I read about it elsewhere (not in the above description) says that people get big tax credits to pay for their healthcare. $7500 tax credit? Sounds like taxpayers are indeed paying for other people's healthcare in that case. How are we going to pay for the military if we're giving away tax money for healthcare?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Here's the link.

I'm not too impressed. It really doesn't deal with the elephant in the room - people with no jobs and/or no money. Does the GOP not know they exist? Are they still expected to use the Emergency Room, like Mitt Romney suggested?

Millions and millions of Americans can't get health insurance because they can't afford it, tax credits won't change that.

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the whole point of this "reform" is to criminalize abortion. Will birth control be next? Because I'm sure they will be so many exemptions available to exclude women's health care, that women won't be able to get any care. Will miscarriages be criminalized, too, like they are in many Latin American countries?

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 13:57

I created this thread so that conservatives could demonstrate what Republicans have to offer instead of ACA.
I haven't seen anyone demonstrate anything yet.

conservatives - got anything to share?

I did. You didn't qualify that it must meet liberals approval. Your question has been answered.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"Will miscarriages be criminalized, too, like they are in many Latin American countries?"

I doubt that; but I have read about the legal difficulties with miscarriages in some Central American countries, and find it incomprehensible.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"What I read about it elsewhere (not in the above description) says that people get big tax credits to pay for their healthcare. $7500 tax credit? Sounds like taxpayers are indeed paying for other people's healthcare in that case. How are we going to pay for the military if we're giving away tax money for healthcare? "

Esh,That is exactly what Obamacare is doing! Giving tax subsidy's and credits to pay for their healthcare! And if you make more money than they allow, you pay an exorbitant amount for your insurance so you can help cover someone else's insurance.

"Millions and millions of Americans can't get health insurance because they can't afford it, tax credits won't change that."

Again, how is Obamacare any different?

Here is a link that might be useful: Subsidy Calculator


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"Safeguards individuals with pre-existing conditions from being discriminated against purchasing health insurance by bolstering state-based high risk pools and extending HIPAA guaranteed availability protections. "

That is the best way to handle the Pre existing condition issue. In fact, they have had a program like that in effect for over 2 years. The premium was supposed to be $500+ but after a few months, so little people had signed up for it that they lowered the premium to $250. HALF. Just to get people to sign up.

They already have a program for the poor, it's called AHCCCS.
They could simply expand that program.

I also think they should highly regulate the insurance companies to keep them honest. IMO, they are legalized extortionists.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"I also think they should highly regulate the insurance companies to keep them honest. IMO, they are legalized extortionists."

Agree. They put the cart before the horse with the ACA being implemented before regulating costs.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Again, how is Obamacare any different?

The point is - How is the Republican plan any better then? And by the way, thank you magic for engaging in discussion on specific points.

I did. You didn't qualify that it must meet liberals approval. Your question has been answered.

Oh good grief, mrskjun. Do you not know how to have a discussion?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 9:27

Sure the Repubs have a plan, it's called tort reform, that'll fix everything.
Or they could adopt Romney's "Self Deportation" plan and morph it into a "Self Medication" plan, and all will be well. Or they could continue to do what they do best - Nothing, except gripe, complain, and BS their way to the next election.


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Reporting a miscarriage - go to jail

If a woman in Virginia has a miscarriage without a doctor present, they must report it within 24 hours to the police or risk going to jail for a full year. At least, that’s what would have happened if a bill introduced by Virginia state Sen. Mark Obenshain (R) had become law.

And he is within a few votes of becoming the Virginia Attorney General.

And this in Georgia, in 2011. Georgia State Rep. Bobby Franklin - who last year proposed making rape and domestic violence "victims" into "accusers" - has introduced a 10-page bill that would criminalize miscarriages and make abortion in Georgia completely illegal. Both miscarriages and abortions would be potentially punishable by death: any "prenatal murder" in the words of the bill, including "human involvement" in a miscarriage, would be a felony and carry a penalty of life in prison or death.

These bills have been, and will continue to be proposed by REPUBLICAN MEN. How any self-respecting woman can support ANY Republican is beyond comprehension.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

My question is, Mom, do any of these Republican male representatives even know what a miscarriage is or what one might entail?

And if they are intent upon making any and all abortion illegal, are they wiling to step up and pay for the consequences, which can be myriad?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 12:04

My question is, Mom, do any of these Republican male representatives even know what a miscarriage is or what one might entail?

It doesn't matter what they know, the problem is WHAT THEY DO. Their attacks on women are as dangerous and traumatic as an assault in a dark alley.

And yet, women vote for them over and over again. Have we lost our minds? How can a woman justify, to themselves, and other women, voting for someone like this. No matter what "good ideas" they may have, the fact that they are willing to attack women, and criminalize our bodies, is just unbelievable. And women vote for them.

Men like these won't stop with abortion or miscarriage, they'll move on to other facets of women's health.

These men represent the worst, most false, characteristics of their so-called Christianity, and their goal is to marginalize, subjugate and isolate us, to make us irrelevant.

The three great monotheistic religions preach just these ideas - and these American politicians wholeheartedly embrace these ideas.

It's sickening.

Oh, and please hand them their little blue pill.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"Provides tax reform that allows families and individuals to deduct health care costs, just like companies, leveling the playing field and providing all Americans with a standard deduction for health insurance."

Key word is "level the playing field". Millions of people are going to get subsidy's to help pay these astronomical premium hikes because it is the law that they buy insurance. I am not eligible because I make a few thousand more so therefore I am responsible for the full amount. My circumstances may be much harsher than my neighbor but that is not taken into account. I am a small business owner, I have a kid in college, I have parents with issues to take care of. In other words, I have twice the financial responsibility than my neighbor which is not taken into consideration. How is that fair? Why am I being punished for working hard and being responsible to me and mine? After all, they are not paying for my son's education or my parents healthcare costs now are they? Depending on which calculator you use , My premium will double, to between $1200 to $1500 per month. Does anyone really think that is okay?

If you give one person subsidy's to make it affordable, then you should give everyone subsidy's to make it affordable. Blindly saying "you make to much money" is unfair when they (the government) has no idea what my out go is.

"Safeguards individuals with pre-existing conditions from being discriminated against purchasing health insurance by bolstering state-based high risk pools and extending HIPAA guaranteed availability protections."

This and expanding Medicare to people who can't afford insurance would IMO accomplish the major issue that they say they want to accomplished but without punishing everyone else. Obamacare is eliminating the high risk pools. That makes no sense. This would make insurance affordable for people who need it the most.

First and foremost, they need to go after the insurance companies. They are crooks and this AHCA is just a huge gift to them. They make billions in profit every year and now with people being forced to buy certain coverages that most will never use just to cover some who might, they are going to make billions more.

I think that we need health care reform, I just think the AHCA is not the way to do it.

And I never said the Republicans way was better, just had different ways of going for the same goal that IMO is fair to everyone.
When this becomes less about Republicans VS. Democrat then maybe there would be a solution.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Republicans and Conservatives now know their place--because they didn't have one in crafting this law and their input was not needed or welcome

Your memory must be failing you. They could have had a very big part in crafting the ACA. They refused. Why did they do that? They said why. They were very clear. They would do anything they could to make Obama's presidency a failure. Even if it meant hurting the people they are supposed to represent. And their followers, like you, support that strategy completely as evidenced by your repeated posts here. Shameful.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a mid-MI (My Page) on
    Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 14:12

Everyone goes forward as though the Federal Govmt has permission to go into the "free" health care business. It doesn't .... and it WON'T be free. If each of our representatives gave even a little consideration to their oath of office, Obamacare would have been dead in the water and a non-issue from the go. Obamacare is simply another socialistic wealth redistribution scheme, shoved down our throats, that will end up costing the country trillions of dollars it does not have and saddling us with more debt and much more oppressive, freedom-sapping regulation.

Of course anyone who voted to withhold funding from the Trojan Horse monstrosity was right to do so, and should be applauded for not ignoring their oath of office. Do (the collective) YOU have any idea what lurks in the bill?

I'll have an attorney draw up a contract that offers each of you free health care, and I'll pay for it out of my own pocket - all you need to do is sign the contract w/o reading it. How many takers are there? The folly in arguing that Obamacare is a good thing is like arguing about which one of a hundred suitcases (w/o prior knowledge) is full of goodies. You simply don't know what you're arguing for, and that borders on lunacy. You took the free health care hook w/o any idea of what comes with it. All you've seen so far is the tip of the iceberg.

The words of Thomas Sowell:

"Even when it comes to something as basic, and apparently as simple and straightforward, as the question of who shut down the federal government, there are diametrically opposite answers, depending on whether you talk to Democrats or to Republicans.

There is really nothing complicated about the facts. The Republican-controlled House of Representatives voted all the money required to keep all government activities going - except for Obamacare.

This is not a matter of opinion. You can check the Congressional Record.

As for the House of Representatives’ right to grant or withhold money, that is not a matter of opinion either. You can check the Constitution of the United States. All spending bills must originate in the House of Representatives, which means that its members there have a right to decide whether or not they want to spend money on a particular government activity.

Whether Obamacare is good, bad or indifferent is a matter of opinion. But it is a matter of fact that members of the House of Representatives have a right to make spending decisions based on their opinion.

Obamacare is indeed “the law of the land,” as its supporters keep saying, and the U.S. Supreme Court has upheld its constitutionality.

But the whole point of having a division of powers within the federal government is that each branch can decide independently what it wants to do or not do, regardless of what the other branches do, when exercising the powers specifically granted to that branch by the Constitution.

The hundreds of thousands of government workers who have been laid off are not idle because the House of Representatives did not vote enough money to pay their salaries or the other expenses of their agencies - unless they are in an agency that would administer Obamacare.

Since we cannot read minds, we cannot say who - if anybody - wants to shut down the government. But we do know who had the option to keep the government running and chose not to. The money voted by the House of Representatives covered everything that the government does, except for Obamacare.

The Senate chose not to vote to authorize that money to be spent, because it did not include money for Obamacare. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says that he wants a “clean” bill from the House of Representatives, and some in the media keep repeating the word “clean” like a mantra. But what is unclean about not giving Reid everything he wants?

If Reid and President Obama refuse to accept the money required to run the government, because it leaves out the money they want to run Obamacare, that is their right. But that is also their responsibility.

You cannot blame other people for not giving you everything you want. And it is a fraud to blame them when you refuse to use the money they did vote, even when it is ample to pay for everything else in the government.

When Obama keeps claiming that it is some new outrage for those who control the money to try to change government policy by granting or withholding money, that is simply a bald-faced lie. You can check the history of other examples of “legislation by appropriation,” as it used to be called.

Whether legislation by appropriation is a good idea or a bad idea is a matter of opinion. But whether it is both legal and not unprecedented is a matter of fact.

Perhaps the biggest of the big lies is that the government will not be able to pay what it owes on the national debt, creating a danger of default. Tax money keeps coming into the Treasury during the shutdown, and it vastly exceeds the interest that has to be paid on the national debt.

Even if the debt ceiling is not lifted, that only means that the government is not allowed to run up new debt. But that does not mean that it is unable to pay the interest on existing debt.

None of this is rocket science. But unless the Republicans get their side of the story out - and articulation has never been their strong suit - the lies will win. More important, the whole country will lose."

Al

This post was edited by tapla on Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 15:51


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"And I never said the Republicans way was better, just had different ways of going for the same goal that IMO is fair to everyone. "

Magic you write well, are obviously well informed perhaps you could help me understand what that plan was/is.

I am not being argumentative I simply have not found anything anywhere that clearly articulates the GOP policy and strategy vis a vis Healthcare.

I'll go back and re read this thread, I have only scanned it so maybe I missed something.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

When this becomes less about Republicans VS. Democrat then maybe there would be a solution.

I agree completely. All I have ever wanted is for my elected officials to work together to craft something that would improve the situation.

Years ago, I don't know who started it, but someone made it political. But I do know that with this go round, the Republicans have made sure that it stayed political. And that's a problem.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Welcome Tapla, good post. I hope you contribute more here in the future.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"My circumstances may be much harsher than my neighbor but that is not taken into account. I am a small business owner, I have a kid in college, I have parents with issues to take care of. In other words, I have twice the financial responsibility than my neighbor which is not taken into consideration. How is that fair?"

Good question for Democrat Senators and House members who voted for this abomination. Are either of your senators or your house member guilty? Then they owe you an explanation.

Hang on to the reply. It may come in handy next year to candidates who understand who works for whom.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Good question for Democrat Senators and House members who voted for this abomination.

And a good question for the Republican Senators and House members who have not lifted one finger to help Americans by identifying tweaks and improvements that can be applied to ACA (without repealing the whole thing and starting over) but instead spend their time voting for a useless repeal and even voting to shutdown the government over it.

Anyone who thinks that the Republican approach to the ACA has been at all useful to the American citizen is just plain obstinate.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on
Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 14:35

Good question for Democrat Senators and House members who voted for this abomination.

And a good question for the Republican Senators and House members who have not lifted one finger to help Americans by identifying tweaks and improvements that can be applied to ACA (without repealing the whole thing and starting over) but instead spend their time voting for a useless repeal and even voting to shutdown the government over it.

Anyone who thinks that the Republican approach to the ACA has been at all useful to the American citizen is just plain obstinate.

*

Who wants to tweak a train wreck after the fact?

Democrats have ALL the answers as we have been told, and Republicans don't care about anyone.

So now we're seeing just how much Democrats care about hard working citizens and those who try to do the right thing and were paying their bills and had insurance they liked and wanted to keep.

Democrats and Barack Obama OWN this legislation all on their own, and they deserve the opportunity to show us all what they have done.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a mid-MI (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 15:09

If "Anyone who thinks that the Republican approach to the ACA has been at all useful to the American citizen is just plain obstinate", what do we label a person who thinks it is the proper function of our government to provide health care by taking "From each according to his abilities, [and giving] to each according to his needs"? There's a big hint in the later quote.

Al


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Think what you want, but personally I expect my elected officials to pitch in and help Americans regardless of whether it was their idea or not.

Anyone who thinks that the Republican approach to the ACA has been at all useful to the American citizen is just plain obstinate.

Raising your hands and saying "Hey, wasn't my idea!" is just childish. I would much more admire (and re-elect) someone that says "You know, I think that if we did this and adjusted here that it would help more Americans ...."


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a mid-MI (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 15:53

You see, that's a problem. You EXPECT. You expect all your representatives to just join hands and unabashedly ignore the fact that the constitution doesn't provide them permission to give you free health care. You expect free health care, why? Because you're entitled to it?

How would you feel if the next time you take your family to a really swank restaurant and order steak & lobster, they bring you each a small burger? That would be bad enough, but how would you feel if they brought you the steak & lobster tab along with the burgers, and explained that they decided to open the doors to 3 dozen people passing on the street and serve them burgers, too. That way, a lot more people could be fed.

Sound like a good plan? Sounds fair - right?

The first thing I would do if I was king for a day, would be to ask for a show of hands to see how many people think it's proper to take from one, under threat of force and to redistribute the spoils to another. How would you vote?

Al

This post was edited by tapla on Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 16:05


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 16:01

the constitution doesn't provide them permission to give you [with] free health care.

And you know this because......................


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

..."who have not lifted one finger to help Americans by identifying tweaks and improvements that can be applied to ACA(without repealing the whole thing and starting over)...

In this case, I think Demi has the answer for you:

"Who wants to tweak a train wreck after the fact?"

I've been trying to find a way to say something like that.

It's such a mess, I don't mind admitting I have no idea how to even start "fixing" it.

With my cars, I buy them and then run them into the ground. At some point I realize it just makes no sense to try fixing them any more. I send them off to the junk yard and buy a new one.

Hay


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Yes, I expect ... I expect my elected officials to work TOGETHER.

I don't expect free healthcare. Have I said that I do?

I expect cooperation to help the American people, to solve problems and find solutions. Not to sit back and point fingers and laugh.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

i don't know what deciding not to fix an old car that has given many years of service has to do with the Affordable Care Act.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

The constitution was written in a time and place and under circumstances that no longer exist. It defined slaves as 3/5 of a person and denied the vote to anyone but white males. What is awesome about the constitution is that it is open to amendment, the first 10 of which are referred to as the Bill of Rights. No, no health care in that first 10, but the 19th gave women like me the right to vote. Should I throw in the towel and forgo my right to vote because it was not in the original document?

And what makes anyone think that health insurance is suddenly "free" under the Affordable CAre Act? Utter nonsense.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

There is that General Welfare clause in the Constitution.

We pay twice what anybody else in the world does for health care, with often worse results. I don't think the Constitution ever envisaged armies of highly paid lobbyists shoveling millions of dollars in campaign contributions to pass laws so that we prohibit the government from negotiating drug prices for seniors, resulting in paying 2X to 5X what anybody else in the world does for the same drug.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a mid-MI (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 17:07

You can bet that to a large fraction of our population, this plan will be free, and it will come at the added expense to those with the means.

In it's original form, the SC ruled Obamacare unconstitutional as a legitimate exercise of Congress’s power to regulate interstate commerce. With Justice Robert's help, it was rewritten as a TAX (which Obama swore up and down it wasn't). As a TAX bill, written for raising revenue, it had to have originated in the house. It did not - it originated in the senate.

The above is a secondary point. Even bills that are constitutional aren't necessarily good. Obamacare was a fraud on the people from the outset. We were told it was something it was not; many promises were made that are obviously not going to be kept; we have no idea what is scheduled to "kick in" as full implementation takes place, and that is extremely frightening to me as a person who jealously guards his freedoms and privacy. The promises. sweetheart deals/pork, and undoubtedly blackmail that accompanied this contentious legislation should in itself be enough to make a person want no part of the trillion dollar plus spending monstrosity. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and this one's gonna cost the working man dearly.

All those who believe the people are entitled to another monstrous entitlement should feel completely free to fund it on their own. That seems pretty reasonable to me. If that suddenly became the case, there would be a large number of people who suddenly decide it's not fair to make 'me' pay for all this health care when 'they're' not paying; but what a good way it would be to show us how strongly you believe in this plan to forcefully take from one to give to another.

Al


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"i don't know what deciding not to fix an old car that has given many years of service has to do with the Affordable Care Act."

i know you don't

Hay


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 17:16

FYI - the Affordable Care Act doesn't offer free health care

The US Government is pretty much alone in the world in not offering health care to all citizens.

We should be ashamed of ourselves.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Healthcare, like education, is a basic human right in a free and forward thinking country....and like education it is funded through the tax base.

Of course it is not "free" but , other than education, what better way to use the common purse for a common good?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

You can bet that to a large fraction of our population, this plan will be free, and it will come at the added expense to those with the means.

What is the definition of a "large fraction"? 60% of Americans get their health insurance from employer-provided plans. Another 25-30% use Medicare or Medicaid. So what fraction does that leave you to say that "this plan will be free"? 10%?

And if so many people will get it for free, who are all these people talking about their insurance going up?

You don't make sense, man.

Do you prefer the Republican proposal that people get a $7500 tax cut (that's right, the government will get less revenue from each taxpayer, that's like you are paying for it too if you understand how that works) so they can buy health insurance? Either way, money is coming out of the government's pocket.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Since when did the government have a pocket? It never was and never is money that belongs to a separate entity called the government. It belongs to the people who earned it, who send it to a certain place to be dispersed to take care of the security of the citizens and give aid to those that cannot care for themselves.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

But its ok to have, as the only option for health care, to give our money to health insurance companies that pay their CEO's with $800 million golden parachutes, and annual salaries north of $100 million, that give bonuses to their employees that refuse payments for cancer patients because they once had acne and didn't declare it on their applications.

Known in the Constitution as "providing for the general welfare". Because the Supreme Court just decided that corporations, and that includes health insurance companies, are really people and we should look after their welfare.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 18:15

Whoa there mrskjun........................

It belongs to the people who earned it, who send it to a certain place to be dispersed to take care of the security of the citizens and give aid to those that cannot care for themselves.

That sounds kinda socialistic


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by david52 z5CO (My Page) on
Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 18:08

But its ok to have, as the only option for health care, to give our money to health insurance companies that pay their CEO's with $800 million golden parachutes, and annual salaries north of $100 million, that give bonuses to their employees that refuse payments for cancer patients because they once had acne and didn't declare it on their applications.

*

You're darned right.

It's our money and we should decide how best to care for our own needs.

If we want to pay more to an insurance company (which won't happen, people like me will be paying MORE for people that do not pay their share) than letting the government have control it's OUR BUSINESS.

It's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS how I want to spend my money or anyone else.

It's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS or Barack Obama's or Nancy Pelosi's or Harry Reid's business what kind of insurance policy I have.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a mid-MI (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 18:48

If health care was a basic human RIGHT, it would be such everywhere, whether the country is free and forward thinking or not. It's an entitlement that is ONLY possible by taking "From each according to his abilities, [and giving] to each according to his needs"? That is Marxism, pure & simple.

That someone would believe it to be a right is illustration of an entitlement mentality. The general welfare clause appears twice. Once in the preamble and once in the section that itemizes restrictions on the Government's authority to tax. Read more about the clause below.

Esh - if you were assigned a fraction of your near neighbors' lawns to mow, would 10% loom large?

Al

Here is a link that might be useful: More on


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

So you're saying you can't answer the question?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

It's our money and we should decide how best to care for our own needs.

That time has long passed, and there are laws in force, other than the current health care reform, that do restrict our choices on what we can do with our money.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

And once again, the deadliest germs don't give a rip about the Constitution, and are happy to pass from some uninsured, untreated sod to the most stalwart, healthy Constitution and freedom lover. Just like they cross borders on air planes with business travelers, those nasty germs show up at everywhere from gun clubs to operas, on buses and planes, in taxis and the more uninsured, untreated people, the better for them.

But, freedom and liberty will stop them. Sure they will.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin attempted on Monday to explain her alternative proposal for Obamacare on the "Today Show."

-snip-

"The plan is to allow those things that had been proposed over many years to reform a health-care system in America that certainly does need more help so that there's more competition, there's less tort reform threat, there's less trajectory of the cost increases, and those plans have been proposed over and over again," Palin said.

snip

"And what thwarts those plans? It's the far left," she said "It's President Obama and his supporters who will not allow the Republicans to usher in free market, patient-centered, doctor-patient relationship links to reform health care."

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Can someone please translate that into English ........


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

usher in free market, patient-centered

How can the phrase "free market" be seriously used in conjunction with "patient-centered" and not have a chorus of laughs and hoots.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"That sounds kinda socialistic"

Well, we DO live in a society. I think there are degrees of "social;" socialism being one of those degrees. I also think "socialism" has many shades and means different things to different people.

Pretty sure someone will set me straight so that I can see it her/his way. ;-)


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 12, 13 at 9:19

"Can someone please translate that into English ........"

That's easy Chase...

"bla bla bla, bla bla....tort reform...bla bla bla, yada yada..."

...but she does do a really good impression of Tina Fey


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

The derp continues to amazes me in its blind misunderstanding of how our current insurance schema works.

1. Newsflash! President Obama is not sitting behind a desk signing health insurance policies. Every policy issues from a for-profit insurance corporation, all free-markety-licious 'n' everything.

2. We ALREADY pay for all these freedom lovers who pack our emergency rooms when they invariably get sick, and already pay more through our policies and taxes when the uninsured prices of catastrophic illness deplete even the savings of monied middle-class patients.

3. The fine is an attempt to maintain a semblance of national fiscal responsibility in the face of these patriots. You want to determine how to spend YOUR MONEY and go without health insurance? Groovy! But the rest of us paying customers now ask you to put a pittance into the kitty against the time you will cost us all hundreds of thousands for that bankrupting bone cancer treatment you'll be demanding in 10 years.

4. Just by the by, I can think of few things more atavistic than claiming that human health is a frivolous entitlement. You want REAL free-market healthcare? Move to Bangladesh.



How can the phrase "free market" be seriously used in conjunction with "patient-centered" and not have a chorus of laughs and hoots.

lol Nancy! :)


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

circus, that is the best rebuttal of common anti-Obamacare myths that I have ever read--most concise also (which is probably what makes it so effective ).

Now, if certain anti-Obama-ites would just take the time to actually read what you said and give it a few minutes to soak in. But I bet within another handful of postings, we will hear the same myths repeated--or at least on the next thread posted here.

Kate


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

What was stopping the health insurance companies from upgrading existing policies to meet the new criteria? So, if I have a policy that doesn't cover maternity, they could tack on $2.98 across the pool and take care of it.

I find it interesting that so little scrutiny has been given to the rapacious nature of the insurance industry and their clear effort here to dump questionably unprofitable current policy holders. United Health Care, Aetna, etc - with their well-established track record of scum dealings, I wouldn't trust 'em with a nickel.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

#3....what fine?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Meanwhile, it's good to keep tabs on what is happening in Venezuela.

"CARACAS (Reuters) - President Nicolas Maduro's government announced arrests of both store managers and looters on Sunday as part of what it calls an "economic war" in Venezuela between the socialist state and unscrupulous businessmen.
In a major pre-Christmas campaign reminiscent of the late President Hugo Chavez's dramatic style, Maduro has sent soldiers to "occupy" one chain of electronics stores and inspectors into scores of others to check for price-gouging.
Thousands of Venezuelans have been flocking to electronics stores, hoping to take advantage of new "fair prices" the government is imposing, sometimes half the previous cost."

... annual inflation has hit 54 percent ...

.....................

"i don't know what deciding not to fix an old car that has given many years of service Venezuela has to do with the Affordable Care Act."

i know you don't

Hay


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"I find it interesting that so little scrutiny has been given to the rapacious nature of the insurance industry and their clear effort here to dump questionably unprofitable current policy holders."

That's because people know what they were promised, and who broke that promise, hence they know exactly where the scrutiny belongs. What did you think would happen when the president went out dozens of times and told Americans they could keep their insurance and nobody could take it away from them?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"1. Newsflash! President Obama is not sitting behind a desk signing health insurance policies. Every policy issues from a for-profit insurance corporation, all free-markety-licious 'n' everything. "

Well, of course health insurance has not been free market since before our lifetimes. It has been regulated for a long time now. In that regard, it has never been a consumer-driven, free market product.

And it's certainly not free market now, in that people can't pick the product they want, the services they want, nor the price they want. There is very little choice going on here.

"2. We ALREADY pay for all these freedom lovers who pack our emergency rooms when they invariably get sick, and already pay more through our policies and taxes when the uninsured prices of catastrophic illness deplete even the savings of monied middle-class patients."

It seems that all the claims of the poor over-utilizing emergency rooms may have been overblown to serve a purpose (no surprises there). The percentage of uninsured who used the ER at least once has stayed pretty consistent at about ~15% since 1996.

Most emergency room users are insured, middle class (> 400% of poverty level), and have a primary care physician. They use ERs for convenience:

- Availability during non-work hours.
- Quick answers - you don't have to wait a day to see your primary care physician.
- One-stop shopping. You don't have to go to 3 or 4 different places to get tests done.

The middle-class insured are the big drivers in the increase of ER utilization since 1996.

So, no, the problem is not the uninsured who are using ERs.

"3. The fine is an attempt to maintain a semblance of national fiscal responsibility in the face of these patriots. You want to determine how to spend YOUR MONEY and go without health insurance? Groovy! But the rest of us paying customers now ask you to put a pittance into the kitty against the time you will cost us all hundreds of thousands for that bankrupting bone cancer treatment you'll be demanding in 10 years."

This would be true if these were some sort of medical savings accounts, but nothing is being accrued for future use. It's kind of dishonest to sell it as such. There is no credit being accrued towards the future. If you don't use it, you're losing money. Then you start all over again next year. It's pretty straightforward. What you pay this year reflects the best estimate of what will be spent this year.

Yes, people get to decide how to spend their money. If something is not affordable, they are simply not going to buy it. If you have to spend a significant portion of your disposable income on a product you aren't going to use, then it's cheaper to pay the penalty. You also may not have enough disposable income to cover the cost. If you can't afford it, you can't afford it. That's pretty straightforward too.

Just because the gimmicky word "affordable" is in there doesn't make it so. Subsidies drop off precipitously after a certain point, so it does become quite unaffordable rapidly, depending on which plans and pricing are available in your state.

4. Just by the by, I can think of few things more atavistic than claiming that human health is a frivolous entitlement. You want REAL free-market healthcare? Move to Bangladesh."

And, of course, Bangladesh is a poor country with a state religion (Islam) and not great at protecting private property rights, so they are not free market in any usual sense.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 12, 13 at 18:37

If health care was a basic human RIGHT, it would be such everywhere, whether the country is free and forward thinking or not.

Surely you jest.

Almost every country in the first, second and third world offers it's citizens national or universal health care.

Except of course, the US. We are pretty much the only country that doesn't.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Bill Clinton has a plan. The president keeps his word. That's my plan, too!

Where do liberals here stand on that idea?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

On what idea?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

And it's certainly not free market now, in that people can't pick the product they want, the services they want, nor the price they want. There is very little choice going on here.

Well, sure -- although that isn't entirely correct, because of course people can still pick the product and price they want, if they're purchasing independently of their employer -- but this matter of "choice" hasn't changed at all with the ACA. We could never pick and choose which services we wanted - either you paid less for a policy covering fewer services, or more for a policy covering more; despite Nik's hysteria over men having policies that cover maternity care, we were never able to select from an la carte menu. We could pay more for additional dental or optical coverage, but that's not the same thing.

It seems that all the claims of the poor over-utilizing emergency rooms may have been overblown to serve a purpose (no surprises there).

Exactly. To hear Nik or Demi tell it, you'd think the ERs are filled to the brim with the poor (and their teeming toothless clans) and/or illegal aliens stealing away health services from righteous 'Muricans. Our real financial dilemma has been the federal requirement for the subsidization of the high cost of these services -- exponentially higher than if folks went to their GP -- we have ALL been paying for that via taxes and our own inflated insurance policies.

The middle-class insured are the big drivers in the increase of ER utilization since 1996.
And we must take into account the number of medical bankruptcies that have been climbing alarmingly, precisely among those middle-class insured. I really have no problem eradicating the junk policies that falsely lured people into a sense of safety -- I now know three families that have had to declare bankruptcy because of medical crises and the attendant costs, despite being insured. Statistically I'm not alone.

Yes, insurance is insanely expensive in this country. It is a moral crime that for many Americans, simply protecting one's family's health requires half one's monthly salary or more. THAT is where the reform emphasis must lie, not on trying to cajole the feds into allowing junk policies again. Those policies, the ones that appeared to be reasonably priced, simply cost us all too much.

"But the rest of us paying customers now ask you to put a pittance into the kitty against the time you will cost us all hundreds of thousands for that bankrupting bone cancer treatment you'll be demanding in 10 years."

This would be true if these were some sort of medical savings accounts, but nothing is being accrued for future use. It's kind of dishonest to sell it as such. There is no credit being accrued towards the future. If you don't use it, you're losing money. Then you start all over again next year. It's pretty straightforward. What you pay this year reflects the best estimate of what will be spent this year.

I'm not sure I'm clear on what you mean - I was talking about the penalty imposed by the ACA upon those who decide not to purchase healthcare. Perhaps I confused things by talking about the future needs of one sole citizen -- of course there's no "kitty" per se, since the ACA penalty will presumably help cover this year's subsidized expenditures, instead of coming out of our taxes. Insurance has never functioned as a "medical savings account" -- I think I must have misunderstood you here, Lion?

Look, it's pretty thin, I didn't vote for it, but something HAD to change in how this country approaches healthcare. I believe it's our ethical duty as a civilized nation to make healthcare available to all citizens -- this isn't the way I would have gone about it, because in end effect all the ACA does is make incredibly expensive profit-oriented healthcare available to all citizens. But the Congressional Budget Office believes the ACA will work and save us money -- so I too have little choice but to make the best of it.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

I saw this quote from Hay
"With my cars, I buy them and then run them into the ground. At some point I realize it just makes no sense to try fixing them any more. I send them off to the junk yard and buy a new one."

This sounds like the philosophy of the Koch brothers- and I can't help but think of coal miners being used up and then left to suffer and die. The company owners are even buying doctors off to say that the miners do not have black lung.

So I get your metaphor Hay. Let's just junk these humans- "decrease the surplus population" (snip from Charles Dickens)

“What then? If he be like to die, he had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.” Scrooge hung his head to hear his own words quoted by the Spirit, and was overcome with penitence and grief.

“Man,” said the Ghost, “if man you be in heart, not adamant, forbear that wicked cant until you have discovered What the surplus is, and Where it is. Will you decide what men shall live, what men shall die? It may be, that in the sight of Heaven, you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man’s child. Oh God! To hear the Insect on the leaf pronouncing on the too much life among his hungry brothers in the dust.”
(end snip)

And back to old cars:
The announcement that General Motors was pulling the plug on Pontiac, the 84-year-old brand whose sales peaked in 1973, drew gasps among some Venezuelans.

“I find it hard to believe that the Americans would let Pontiac expire like that,” said Oswaldo Valdes, 21, a university student who owns a 1970 Pontiac Grand Prix. “In this country, this great automobile has decades of life ahead of it.”
--------------------------------
.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"Our real financial dilemma has been the federal requirement for the subsidization of the high cost of these services -- exponentially higher than if folks went to their GP -- we have ALL been paying for that via taxes and our own inflated insurance policies."

So does that mean that we'll be getting rebates because those costs will be going down? Maybe the subsidies are meant to act as those rebates, but for those of us who don't qualify for subsidies, are already subsidizing the poor, and aren't affluent, the ACHA in its present form is a very disappointing turn of events for many.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"So I get your metaphor Hay."

No, you don't. What you get is an award for the weakest attempt to link something I said to some nonsense that you spouted off.

Esh:

..."who have not lifted one finger to help Americans by identifying tweaks and improvements that can be applied to ACA(without repealing the whole thing and starting over)..."
....

Hay:

"In this case, I think Demi has the answer for you:

"Who wants to tweak a train wreck after the fact?"

I've been trying to find a way to say something like that.

It's such a mess, I don't mind admitting I have no idea how to even start "fixing" it.

With my cars, I buy them and then run them into the ground. At some point I realize it just makes no sense to try fixing them any more. I send them off to the junk yard and buy a new one."

That's quite a leap to get from what I wrote to what you wrote.

Maybe Pidge can help us out in trying to understand the connection.

Hay


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Reading about Venezuela, I see so much that reminds me of what we see on this forum.

Commie talk. So much sounds like what we do in this nation.

"Venezuela's President Nicolás Maduro intensified his perceived fight Monday against "bourgeois parasites" he accuses of an economic war against the socialist country by threatening to force more stores to sell their merchandise at cut-rate prices."

....

"Thousands of people lined up at the Daka stores hoping for a bargain after the government forced the companies to charge "fair" prices."

....

"tied to policies of the government, which is boosting public spending and printing money in record amounts to pay for it."

...

" But Maduro blames it on greedy business and his opponents here and abroad."

...

"They're doing this for nothing but political reasons, in time for December's elections."

...

Former president Hugo Chávez often theatrically expropriated or seized assets from more than 1,000 companies during his 14-year tenure. This, among other difficulties for foreign firms, led to a severe drop in foreign investment in the country that has hobbled its ability to produce oil despite having the world's largest estimated oil reserves.

"This is more like government-sanctioned looting," said..."

....

"President Nicolas Maduro's government announced arrests of both store managers and looters on Sunday as part of what it calls an "economic war" in Venezuela between the socialist state and unscrupulous businessmen."

...

"In a major pre-Christmas campaign reminiscent of the late President Hugo Chavez's dramatic style, Maduro has sent soldiers to "occupy" one chain of electronics stores and inspectors into scores of others to check for price-gouging."

...

"Thousands of Venezuelans have been flocking to electronics stores, hoping to take advantage of new "fair prices" the government is imposing, sometimes half the previous cost."

...

"Maduro said he would use decree powers that Congress is expected to grant him this week to set legal limits on businesses' profit-margins.

"Zero tolerance with speculators," he thundered, flanked by most of his Cabinet and quoting biblical, Koranic and Taoist exhortations against usury and materialism."

...

"At the heart of the campaign is who takes the blame for the country's economic problems: price rises that are hitting the poor majority hard despite the government's oil-fueled subsidies and welfare programs, "

...

"Former bus-driver Maduro, 50, is calculating that his attacks on private businessmen will appeal to his working-class support base.

But critics say the government has only itself to blame for the problems due to excessive state controls, persecution of the private sector, corruption, failed nationalizations and lack of foreign currency for importers."

...

""Every time he opens his mouth, he scares away the investments that create employment and he worsens the crisis."

While plenty of economists believe Venezuela is in a mess, with foreign exchange reforms urgently overdue, they also point out that the South American nation has the world's largest oil reserves with ample capacity to repay its debt.

An increasing number of Venezuelans of all political persuasions are fed up with the continued polarization of their nation after 14 years of aggressive confrontations under Chavez, who died of cancer in March."

Commie news from Venezuela. Sound familiar?

Hay


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

I'm glad to hear Hay, that you are not referring to people being used up like old cars...What is the metaphor Hay? "With my cars, I buy them and then run them into the ground. At some point I realize it just makes no sense to try fixing them any more. I send them off to the junk yard and buy a new one."

You've made the point several times that others don't get it- yet I think it's quite clear in several of your posts - that you are referring to The Affordable Health Care Act, of which only a few provisions are in effect right now. Not exactly old when compared to how the health insurance companies have been doing business.- raising rates, denying care and cancelling policies. That is getting old.

Are you talking about those provisions? Like allowing a child to say on their parents insurance plan till the age of 26.? Are you talking about the expanded Medicaid provision that will give poor people single payer health care (not insurance).

Are you talking about Insurance companies writing new plans that were not grandfathered in and then cancelling them- which they have done long before ACA?

Do you support Demi's statement about control-
"If we want to pay more to an insurance company (which won't happen, people like me will be paying MORE for people that do not pay their share) than letting the government have control it's OUR BUSINESS."

She doesn't realize that it will happen and it has happened - (should we just let her misstatement pass?) and that she has only as much control at the corporate insurance companies want to give her- which is not much- not much at all...

The control is either solely by the corporations (with their profits and huge CEO salaries and bonuses), or some control by the people of the the United States- government not of the corporations but of the people. - With some assurance that they won't be cancelled or denied care.

We know what the Koch brothers want what is good for their corporate profits. And they do want to use people up like old cars and treat the environment the same way. And they have bought the tea party and it's politicians. And they have been getting away with murder.

Is that what you want? Because it sounds like a broken down car that needs to be junked to me.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"Commie news from Venezuela. Sound familiar?

Hay"

It sure does, hay. I got the same sort of deja vu that happened while I was reading Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals." ;-(


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Do you support Demi's statement about control-
Posted by alexr (My Page) on
Wed, Nov 13, 13 at 19:15

"If we want to pay more to an insurance company (which won't happen, people like me will be paying MORE for people that do not pay their share) than letting the government have control it's OUR BUSINESS."

She doesn't realize that it will happen and it has happened - (should we just let her misstatement pass?) and that she has only as much control at the corporate insurance companies want to give her- which is not much- not much at all...

*

Alexr--this is absolutely NO "misstatement" in what I wrote.

NONE.

Try very very hard and see if you can make your point with Hay with your own words, not twisting mine.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 0:04


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Meanwhile, back in Venezuela.

(It's NPR, so you know it's true.)

It's sounding very familiar again.

"Even by Venezuela's volatile standards, it's been a difficult few days."

...

"Amid so much unease, President Nicolas Maduro has settled on radical, and some say self-defeating, solutions."

...

"The populist measures seem designed to help Maduro's party get over the hump of next month's mayoral vote, ...But while the measures apparently are popular with voters, Maduro runs the risk of cannibalizing an already damaged economy."

...

"Some analysts are now asking whether the late President Hugo Chavez's socialist revolution has reached a point of no return, where what little private investment is left vanishes completely and Maduro has no choice but to fully embrace a statist model."

...

"If this week, it's electronic stores, then the automotive sector, and you keep doing this for the four weeks until elections, you could do some real damage to the economy."

...

"Although Venezuela claims the world's biggest proven oil reserves, the nation of 30 million is suffering shortages of everything from electricity to auto parts to medical equipment.

Nearly 73 percent of Venezuelans say they're pessimistic about their country's prospects"

...

"Maduro has responded by appearing daily on TV to announce the confiscation of businesses he accuses of helping wage an "economic war" on Venezuela. Congress is expected to approve a bill as early as this week granting him special decree powers, which would give him authority to expand the crackdown."

...

"Leon said Maduro's electoral strategy of slashing appliance prices while blaming unloved merchants for gouging consumers has so far seemed to work, providing a compelling political narrative that for the first time shows him in command."

...

"So far, Maduro still wields one of his biggest assets --- the apparent loyalty of the armed forces, which for decades was the ultimate arbiter of political conflicts. Maduro has gone out of his way to court the military by dramatically expanding its role in the government and granting pay increases in excess of inflation."

...

"Still, nothing in the past week suggests he'll reverse course, as long as radical policies win elections, said historian Ines Quintero."

...

"Even Chavez, who had a lot more political muscle than Maduro did, never changed," said Quintero. "But the politics of polarization eventually exhausts itself. You can't continue in power forever offering solutions to people's problems that don't work."

Another day in the life of Commies. Sound familiar?

Statist? I had to look it up. It's another variation of "progressive"/liberal/populist/commie/socialist.

"In political science, statism (French: étatisme) is the belief that the state should control either economic or social policy,..."

Hay


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Demi wrote:
"If we want to pay more to an insurance company (which won't happen,.....

Of course it would happen - it has happened before and it would continue to happen, there is nothing stopping avaricious insurance corporations from raising your rates. NONE. NONE You have no control- you are a flea to the big insurance companies. Only government of the people, by the people and for the people can help - not government by the Koch brothers and for the Koch brothers and their corporate friends.

In fact, before Obama care, rates were going up approx. 20% a year UNTIL the impending competition from Obama care.

If we didn't have Obama care the rates would skyrocket and there would be caps on amounts of coverage and refused coverage. A bloody good system that was!- (not!) The insurance companies could go back to murdering people as they have done in the past. That's just a fact. As cold as a dead body.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Don't you get it?

Some of us don't want what YOU want or what the government THINKS WE SHOULD HAVE or dictates to us what we should have.

Some of us don't want health insurance at ALL, and some of us only want a catastrophic policy.

It's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS and none of Barack Obama's business.

Insurance companies do not murder people.

You still can't understand that you are using a word that is not applicable, do you?

You have libeled Bobby Jindal, you have committed libel against me.

You should be careful with your words.

Still waiting on you to share murder statutes to back up your heinous accusations.

But I'm not holding my breath.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

I guess that's an admission of a misstatement of facts. I on the other hand, am very careful with my words.

We have all heard or read about the horror stories of insurance companies delaying or denying care. I would kindly suggest that the victims families have considered it murder. I have, and I will again and again.

Many people have asked similar moral questions of culpability about such things as the Jewish Shoah.

Likewise I raise this question about governors like Bobby Jindel who refuse the medicaid expansion to help the poor.

edited to note : Shoah means the death camps of WW2

This post was edited by alexr on Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 13:38


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Obamacare was supposed to fix a problem.

Now we need to fix Obamacare.

I'm detecting a pattern here.

Hay


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Obama care has fixed a problem. Now we need to fix the Republican party.. I'm also detecting a pattern 'there'. (which is your ' here'.)


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Liberals were blindsided by what has unfolded tn the last 6 weeks, while conservatives saw it coming nearly four years ago. Imagine being a cheering liberal when the ACA passed. Who would have believed that we would be finding a thread here entitled "Republicans offer no healthcare alternative." ?!

Since the ACA passed, critics have been scolded, accused of racism, and told they opposed obamacare because they don't want the president to get "credit" for it. Now we're being scolded for not offering alternatives for what liberals have been insisting is a fabulous law, and besides it's the law of the land.

In the real world, the rolling disaster liberals supported has made the Democrat party the butt of endless jokes in popular culture, and the jokes just keep coming. * What a mess!

"It seems like everyone's still pretty upset about this Obamacare website. The Department of Health and Human Services emailed 275,000 Americans, encouraging them to give the Obamacare website another try. Then they said 'But one at a time, so it doesn't crash again.'" "Jimmy Fallon

"Yesterday at the White House, President Obama met with various leaders of the American Indian tribes. He promised them, 'If you like your medicine man, you can keep your medicine man.'" "Jay Leno

"The ObamaCare website won't be accessible at night due to maintenance. And it won't be accessible during the day due to 'it sucking.'" "Conan O'Brien

"It turns out that a lot of children could lose their dental insurance under Obamacare. So kids might not be able to go to the dentist. Parents were really upset, while kids said, 'Four more years! Four more years!'" "Jimmy Fallon

"On Monday, President Obama paid tribute to America's oldest living veteran, 107-year-old Richard Overton. Overton credits his longevity to drinking whiskey and smoking 12 cigars every day. Now there's a health plan we can all get behind." "Jay Leno

* Linked below is an article from Psychology Today, exploring how and why tragedy can evoke humor, and how humor can serve as a defense mechanism when events are out of control and overwhelming.

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Well the AP poll says 79% of Americans are pessimistic about the direction of our country...so Venezuela is still feeling better about themselves than we are.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Fixes? I don't want no stinking fixes! Fixes is what they do to dogs. Unless it's single payer- medicaid for all. - God Bless President Obama,- this is a great country.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Two stories.

From Venezuela

"Venezuela's National Assembly has paved the way to granting special powers for President Nicolas Maduro.

Under the measures the leader would be able to govern by decree for 12 months."

From Connecticut, USA

"Malloy, (the governor of Connecticut),has instructed the insurance commissioner and Lt. Gov. Nancy Wyman to review the president's decree to determine what action, if any, needs to be taken by the state."

Hay


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

I love Venezuela.

"Davila spent 14 hours in line to make her purchases after the store reduced prices by up to 70% on merchandise to comply with Maduro's crusade against the country's "parasitical bourgeoisie."

"It was well worth the wait," Davila, 42, says of her ordeal. "I saved so much money. I feel like I won the lottery."

....

" On Tuesday night, Venezuelan lawmakers gave Maduro the power to enact law without legislative approval. Maduro said he will use the authority to create a new state body to oversee Venezuela's currency controls that have led to widespread inflation and shortage of basic goods. He also said he will order that corporations slash their profit margins by up to 30%."

...

"Quintero fears that the president and his party may emerge stronger in the short term thanks to the current campaign against businessmen.

"Venezuelans don't think too much about the future,'' he says. "We live in the present. We're destroying the economy with moves like this but very few think that way. In the future, people may have some regrets but right now they're acting like Christmas has come early."

Hay


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

In the future, people may have some regrets but right now they're acting like Christmas has come early."

*

And we're marching down that road.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 15, 13 at 10:25

Obamacare was supposed to fix a problem.

Now we need to fix Obamacare.

I'm detecting a pattern here.

Hay

*

I wish Hay could be president for a month.

Succinct and accurate.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Some of us don't want health insurance at ALL, and some of us only want a catastrophic policy.

It's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS and none of Barack Obama's business.

But it IS our business when our taxes and our policy hikes are used to subsidize YOUR decisions. Do you know the staggering amount of loss our economy has had to swallow due to individual medical bankruptcies by folks who were either not insured, under-insured, or whose savings were rapidly eaten up by a medical crisis? Do you know how much money Lousiana alone takes in from federal coffers to cover the use of ERs in your state?

It's not personal, Demi. It's just good fiscal practice not to subsidize others' undue costs. You argue this in every other conceivable context - why not this one?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Meanwhile, back in Massachusetts

(It's PBS, so you know it's true.)

"PAUL SOLMAN: Indeed, insurance premiums have continued to rise since health care reform passed in Massachusetts, climbing almost 10 percent from 2009 to 2011. And health care costs more here than in any state in the country.

....

ARON BOROS, Center for Health Information and Analysis: We have a mandate from the people of Massachusetts to intervene if the market can't control costs on its own.

PAUL SOLMAN: Aron Boros, who runs the state's Center for Health Information Analysis, says government will muscle high-cost offenders.

ARON BOROS: We will use that muscle to force hospitals, other providers and plans to control costs and ultimately pass those savings to consumers."

Hay


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

So finally somebody is going to crack down on the hospitals who buy a plastic syringe for $3.29 and charge the patient for $682 are going to get pressured not to do that?


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

But it IS our business when our taxes and our policy hikes are used to subsidize YOUR decisions. Do you know the staggering amount of loss our economy has had to swallow due to individual medical bankruptcies by folks who were either not insured, under-insured, or whose savings were rapidly eaten up by a medical crisis? Do you know how much money Lousiana alone takes in from federal coffers to cover the use of ERs in your state?

It's not personal, Demi. It's just good fiscal practice not to subsidize others' undue costs. You argue this in every other conceivable context - why not this one?

*

No one has subsidized my personal decisions.

No one need to.

I will never ask anyone to.

No one should expect others to do so.

I know that's not the way it is working, but it my opinion that's the way it should work.

The government should not interfere in my business and make me contribute to them paying for other people's poor decisions.

I don't make the poor decisions.

I am happy to pay for people that can't help what has happened to them and were trying.

Case in point--I was in the grocery store on Monday and saw a woman that was probably 400 pounds in a scooter shopping cart probably mid 30s. Her teenaged daughter was with her--she may or not be of high school aged, maybe older. That girl was at least 300 pounds; she was standing and they were looking at videos (DVDs) on sale in a bin.

I know I will be judged for saying this and I asked myself this as I took my groceries and walked outside to my car, but I thought to myself--these people don't look like they have much money considering the way they were dressed (I know that is judgmental but it is an observation) and it is obvious they are having or will have health problems in the future. I truly felt sorry for them because they just don't get it, probably don't even think of their health or care about the future, or who is paying for it.

I seriously doubt the mother is employed, although she could be. So I think it is reasonable to assume that taxpayers are subsidizing this woman and her daughter in ways that many people are not subsidized, and that their health care costs will be astronomical if not now, in the near future.

While being sympathetic to overweight people, this was just indulgent. Hundreds of extra pounds are not attributable to the normal physical causes of gaining weight, it's due to indulgence.

So why should people that make good decisions be punished and pay for these people when they sit back and do what they want and take no personal responsibility at all?

I do not want subsidy from anyone.
I do not need any subsidy from anyone.

No one else that is mentally able and all but the most serious of physical limitations should, either.

Until people are made to experience the consequences of their decisions and not the people that had nothing to do with it, we are only subsidizing behavior and poor decisions and encouraging more of it.

That is the worst part of Obamacare for me.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

And if the obese mom and daughter are refused health care because they're too fat - you know, suffering the consequences of their poor decisions and all that, and since they don't work and don't have the $250 to go see a doctor or another $250 for tests, they can't go to the doctor when they run a fever and are feeling lousy from SARS or a new, deadly strain of H1N1.

But they do have $10 so they head to the grocery store and look for DVD's to watch while they sweat out the disease, and they coughed as you walked by all condescending like, spreading 2,554,550,165 germs that got all over you and the other 50 people in the store, infecting everyone, 16 of whom need hospitalization, and 8 of them die.

Boy, that sure taught them obese people a lesson in personal responsibility, huh.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

That post made no sense, David.

It just reeked of sarcasm.

Was there any point other than that?

I don't know nuthin bout whether they had SARS or H1N1 pretty much it looked like they suffered from hand to mouth disease.

It that is the case, I don't think I should have to subsidize that and my insurance premiums go up because of that.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 13:22


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

"So finally somebody is going to crack down on the hospitals who buy a plastic syringe for $3.29 and charge the patient for $682 are going to get pressured not to do that?"

I needed some nails the other day and walked into Home Depot and, without even thinking about it, paid about $3 for a box full of them.

Hay


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by demifloyd 8 (My Page) on Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 13:21
That post made no sense, David.
It just reeked of sarcasm.

Was there any point other than that?

I don't know nuthin bout whether they had SARS or H1N1 pretty much it looked like they suffered from hand to mouth disease.

It that is the case, I don't think I should have to subsidize that and my insurance premiums go up because of that.

Gee, Demi, I'd have thought the point rather clear.

Diseases such as SARS and H1N1 don't give a rip about personal responsibility, who has insurance, who pays taxes, who doesn't, who is slender, obese, any of that. Germs cross income boundaries - even rich people with lots of insurance can get SARS and H1N1 - and are more likely to do so if half the population is being 'punished' for their poor choices and lack of enough income to buy medical insurance.


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Has anyone bothered to watch the hearings? So no, the site won't be ready by Nov. 30, no, the site is not secure, no, you aren't really signed up for Obamacare because they haven't even built the part to take payments.

I felt a little bad for Sebelius yesterday. She was doing a photo op with one of the navigators and the website crashed. The navigator says, oh the website is working fine....the reporter pointed to the screen and say..."your screen says system is down".


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RE: Republicans offer no healthcare alternative

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 14:48

Has anyone bothered to watch the hearings? So no, the site won't be ready by Nov. 30, no, the site is not secure, no, you aren't really signed up for Obamacare because they haven't even built the part to take payments.

I felt a little bad for Sebelius yesterday. She was doing a photo op with one of the navigators and the website crashed. The navigator says, oh the website is working fine....the reporter pointed to the screen and say..."your screen says system is down".

*

And this is what the leader of our country and supposedly the free world has produced.

Good God help us.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 14:55


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