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Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Posted by nikoleta (My Page) on
Thu, Nov 21, 13 at 14:41

While the administration and supporters have been dismissing the loss of insurance by folks buying their own policies as just a "small percentage" of the market, and call what they purchased "junk policies," the howling from folks losing employer paid plans is yet to begin. Just wait until they learn what is in store for them. The politicians (ALL Democrats) who wrote, passed and signed Obamacare haven't seen anything yet.

FTA: "Dozens of times (that we know of) over his campaign to pass ObamaCare and to win re-election, President Obama lied to the American people about being able to keep the health insurance they like. But that lie has only been replaced with another: the lie that these cancellations will be limited to the 5% of Americans in the individual marketplace -- when the truth is that these cancellations have only just begun.

Over at National Review, in a piece appropriately titled "Lying About Lies," Michael Tanner reports that the same ObamaCare formula currently wiping out the individual market is about to rain hell on the employer-based market. The result will be that tens of millions of policies will be wiped out.

This is a secret that is and always has been hiding in plain sight.

As far back as last March, the media dutifully reported that the CBO reported that these cancellations were coming. So the media knew Obama was lying during the campaign but never said a word to spread this truth -- oh, except to call Mitt Romney a liar for telling the truth.

All these Democrats and members of the elite media now pretending they don't or didn't know. Please.

Just as the media knew Obama was lying about people in the individual market being able to keep their insurance, the media also know that the same apocalypse looms for the employer-based market. It is not conservatives making this estimate, it is the Congressional Budget Office.

But the same conditions that are causing the cancellation of individual policies will eventually result in the cancellation of millions of employment-based policies as well. The only reason that hasnt happened yet is that the employer mandate was postponed for a year, so employer plans dont yet have to be ACA-compliant. But they will. Even the Congressional Budget Office estimates that as many as 20 million workers will lose their current employer-sponsored plans. Combine that with those losing individual plans, and more than 30 million Americans cannot keep their current insurance."

FTA: "In order to buy time, Obama, Democrats, and the media are trying to con the American people into believing that the rolling ObamaCare catastrophe is compartmentalized to just 5% of the population. This conspiracy of silence is all about trying to contain through a lie of omission what is a legitimate reason for the public to panic as soon as they realize that they are next.

Obama is not sorry for lying. And the media are not sorry for covering up that lie for three years.

The phase we are in now is nothing more than a 2.0 version of that exact same lie."

Here is a link that might be useful: Other shoe to drop soon


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

I don't know why anyone would call it a secret nik. Why in the world would anyone believe he extended the employer mandate for a year. He knew that people were going to be tossed off their private policies. He had to know that people were going to be tossed off their employer policies too....someone has to pay for this boondoggle.


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"Why in the world would anyone believe he extended the employer mandate for a year. He knew that people were going to be tossed off their private policies.

At the time he was making those empty promises, a lot of folks still believed was being straight with them.

But then he came out and said "I am sorry that they are finding themselves in this situation based on assurances they got from me."

But he wasn't sorry enough to say that they were just the first group of Americans destined to "find themselves in that situation." It's going to happen again, but to far more people. He knows the truth. I don't understand why he is so unwilling to speak it. He underestimated what would happen to the trust people had in him. Not sure he has learned anything, though. He's still not being straight with us.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

I'm linking this Forbes article since I bothered to find it in the first place and because it doesn't border on hysteria.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wait on the I told you so's


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I know at my sons business, all employees lose their insurance as of June 1 2014. Also the John Deere dea;lership (5 large stores)has cut 50% of its workers to part time and they no longer have insurance.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

MMM MMM MMM


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

  • Posted by rosie NE Georgia 7A/B (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 22, 13 at 7:11

It was never a secret that employers have taken a real dislike to paying even part of the skyrocketing insurance costs for their employees. OF COURSE, many are going to grab the first chance they can to get their financial noses out of our personal health.

Those who are complaining about "secrets" really should have figured this continued evolution of healthcare reform out for themselves long ago. It is, after all, inevitable (and IMO, very desirable). Failing that, they could have read the predictions and estimates of industry watchers in intelligent journals at any point.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

This is a good thing?

There are people who work at low paying jobs solely for the insurance benefit. Eliminating or reducing this benefit would be disastrous for these folks.


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Too bad we just didn’t go to single payer in the first place. At least we are on our way there despite hysterical Replublican opposition to anything that smacks of justice to ALL citizens.


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I doubt there will be enough dems left in the house and senate to pass any kind of single payer plan. The republicans can address health care as they have wanted to from the beginning. Piece by piece instead of one monstrous government takeover of 1/6th of our economy.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 22, 13 at 7:59

I doubt there will be enough dems left in the house and senate to pass any kind of single payer plan. The republicans can address health care as they have wanted to from the beginning. Piece by piece instead of one monstrous government takeover of 1/6th of our economy.


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We can hope, mrskjun.

When do the employer based policy cancellations start?

Isn't it so strange that Barack Obama "allowed" businesses to be exempt from the LAW and stuck it to individuals first?

Strange my foot.

Politics, power grab, arrogance.

What happened to transparency, fairness, hope and change, and a different kind of administration?


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

In Duluth's link,written by a doctor, not an economist,

"The authors eloquently explain why health insurance makes so much sense for big companies. Because of their large size, these companies are able to negotiate lower premiums with insurance companies, because they have enough employees to reduce their actuarial risks. If a company employing 10 people is unlucky enough for one of their employees to experience a serious cancer diagnosis, for example, the insurance company offering coverage for this company will lose money on that company’s business. By contrast, there is not much chance that a company with 5000 employees will have 500 of their employees develop cancer over the next year. Big numbers reduce risk. And reduced risk means lower insurance premiums."

That simply is not the case. It's like the stock market. I can get rid of that kind of individual stock "risk" in the stock market by buying a diversified portfolio. In the same way, the insurance company can do the same thing by insuring many different groups of small companies.

There are other reasons why big companies can do this. Economy of Scale is one big reason.

Hay


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"Isn't it so strange that Barack Obama "allowed" businesses to be exempt from the LAW and stuck it to individuals first?"

From the standpoint of insurance, businesses ARE people. Businesses are the insureds. And we're having it stuck to us through continually increasing costs.


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Yes.


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I think Duluth's article does point out one reason why McDonald's and other low wage companies might be, in a business sense, forced to eliminate what little health insurance they already provide.

Looking at what's been happening over the recent years...

As for the decline in coverage over time, the Michigan team did not speculate on what caused this trend. But a second picture from their article might offer an explanation. That picture, shown below, illustrates the percent of companies offering health insurance based upon how well these companies pay their employees. The Michigan team finds a huge difference in health insurance coverage, with low-wage companies --- those paying the majority of their employees less than $11.50 per hour--- being much less likely to offer health insurance to their employees, unless these companies have 100 or more employees:

Why this drop in coverage in these lower paying companies? To understand that, it helps to think of health insurance coverage as part of an employee’s overall take-home pay. Suppose I am your employer, and am willing to pay you $50 an hour. Now imagine that you express interest in receiving health insurance coverage. I could offer you such coverage by reducing your take-home wages a little bit, and offering new health benefits in place. In fact, both you and I will get tax breaks for the money we spend on health insurance coverage, so the subsidy means that your overall take-home pay--- wages plus health benefits --- will be greater than if I only offered you wages and asked you to buy health insurance on your own. That is a large incentive for me to offer you health insurance coverage.

Now suppose instead that I’m paying you to flip burgers for me at minimum wage and that you want health insurance coverage. I cannot--- repeat cannot --- lower your wage any further to make up for the cost of offering you healthcare insurance. That means any money I spend on health insurance coverage is costing me, creating a big incentive for me not to offer you insurance coverage. The end result is a double whammy for you --- lower pay and fewer benefits."

What a mess we create.

Hay


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

  • Posted by rosie NE Georgia 7A/B (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 22, 13 at 10:27

Hey! Agreement! I have to go to work so just grabbed the first graph I came to. Of course, the sticking-it-to-us gap became MUCH, MUCH, MUCH larger after 2009. But a picture's still worth 1000 words, right?

Source: Towers Watson Health Care Cost Survey 2010 (active employee data) and Bureau of Labor Statistics, seasonally adjusted data from the Current Employment Statistics Survey August to August, 2000 ��" 2009


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Keep in mind that McDonalds, as well as other low-wage worker, mega-million CEO compensation companies, have been passing off as health insurance "mini-med" policies that cost the low wage employee $14 a week and have a total benefit payout of $2,000 a year. Thats if you bring your receipts and send them into the company and they agree that its covered and all that.

Some might call this a blatant scam to further ripoff the low wage worker. You know the kind who get upset over this stuff - they have beards, wear berets, and drive old beater Volvos with bumper stickers that say "Workers of the ……… Unite"

/ "World" is too faded to read.


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"Of course, the sticking-it-to-us gap became MUCH, MUCH, MUCH larger after 2009."

So how do you expect folks (who don't yet know they're being dumped into exchanges next year) to respond when they find out obamacare gave their employers an incentive to dump them?

Do you think they will care who lost insurance BEFORE obamacare? Or will their focus be on the fact that they lost theirs AFTER obamacare?

And don't forget, after the president promised no such thing would happen.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

  • Posted by rosie NE Georgia 7A/B (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 22, 13 at 14:52

Disingenuous, Nikoleta, when the typical exchange policy is significantly better than what most employees are currently offered, especially employees at that level.

I do my homework, I shopped, and I'm actually changing my work hours and job specifically to LOSE employee insurance and qualify for purchasing from my state exchange, or as you put it, I'm self-dumping myself.

As for their focus? It's going to be on insurance, and we all know most will be quite happy with the change. That's why ALL Republican leaders believe Obamacare will be permanent come January 1.


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"I do my homework, I shopped, and I'm actually changing my work hours and job specifically to LOSE employee insurance and qualify for purchasing from my state exchange, or as you put it, I'm self-dumping myself."

You lost me, rosie.

"I'm actually changing my work hours and job" is awfully vague, since changing your work hours could mean the number of hours you work is changing, or it could mean your work will be done during different hours of the day, as in shift work. What are you trying to say here? Are you going to work more or fewer hours? Or just a different shift?

Also, does changing your job means you changed employers? Or did you drop down below 30 hours so you don't have to take what your employer offers? I get that you wanted to lose your insurance, but you didn't explain what makes buying insurance yourself more attractive to you than getting it from your employer. Is it because the employer insurance was not very good to begin with? Or is it because you now qualify for a generous taxpayer subsidy? I can't imagine anyone with the kind of employer provided insurance I've always had going out of their way to lose it. The president was eager for people with good insurance to believe they could keep it. Those are the folks Democrats have to worry about. They're not worried about folks like you who aren't losing much and stand to gain in the exchanges.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

  • Posted by rosie NE Georgia 7A/B (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 22, 13 at 19:12

Well, this is all personal business for to pick through for ammo, but I made the comment, so I'll explain.

Although not labeled as such, my insurance through my (large) employer is close to catastrophic. I had to change physicians when my employer went to this company because our physician won't accept BCBS, but I was the only one fussing about losing an excellent doctor because of insurance policy change at that time. He does accept Medicaid, though, so DH still goes to him.

My work policy has a very high deductible, a 70% coinsurance rate (leaving us to pay almost 1/3 right there), and has "usual and customary" rates that are anything but. It hasn't paid out a penny in the years since we were switched to it.

I've had an HSA for the past 3 years and put in the maximum each year, but I'm old enough to expect health problems, and have recently been diagnosed with an autoimmune condition that is mostly asymptomatic but could become very serious at any time, making the amount put away look as inadequate as it is.

HSAs were actually designed by the GOP to function as additional tax dodges for our physicians, but I don't expect anything I've been able to roll over into investments to be there long enough to matter. Any typical hospitalization, tests, minor procedure would leave us in debt after the insurance limit was paid and the HSA was emptied.

After that, we'd have to turn to retirement investments, and then to our home to pay for medical care.

My state does did not form its own exchange or accept the Medicaid expansion, and I'm in an older age group, WITH A NEW DIAGNOSIS THAT BEFORE NEXT JANUARY 1 WOULD MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO PURCHASE NEW INSURANCE, but nevertheless for only about $20 more a pay period I can purchase a platinum-level policy through the federal exchange with more and better coverages than I have now, a lower deductible, and coinsurance rate of 90%; i.e., we pay 10%, instead of 30%.

I do qualify for a subsidy, as does almost everyone, but only a small one; apparently we're better off than we feel these days when I think of what our first real illness is going to cost. We buy Medicare supplement insurance for DH, just in case, but once the illnesses start, there will still always be unpaid balances.

Courtesy of Obamacare, I expect there to also always be our home, though, which hadn't been the case for a very long time.


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Rosie, it sounds like you want to work fewer hours so you no longer qualify for your employer's insurance. That will allow you to go to the exchanges to purchase better insurance for slightly more money and receive a subsidy even though it may be small. Or have I misunderstood something?

This post was edited by jlhug on Fri, Nov 22, 13 at 19:51


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  • Posted by rosie NE Georgia 7A/B (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 22, 13 at 19:54

Yup. I work at home and will keep the same hours and basically make the same income, but neither job will offer insurance. With so much at stake for people facing the possibility of being broken by medical bills, I imagine others are also thinking of this.

I'm not interested in taking early retirement to qualify, but for some that will seem to make sense, especially those already unwell.

There'll be at least some state-to-state migration. Besides seeking an affordable insurance deal, many who haven't been able to move, "back home" or otherwise, will no longer be tethered to one job by the need to maintain present insurance at all costs.

I don't know which states currently have brief residency requirements, and what they'd be to qualify for medical programs specifically, but our little vacation home is in a state with a 5-year residency requirement. I checked.

BTW, I read just a little while ago that Florida is in secret talks right now to accept the Medicaid extension.


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"I do qualify for a subsidy, as does almost everyone"

I don't understand why so many peeps keep repeating this. Nobody I know qualifies for subsidy's and we are all, for the most part, small business owners. All of us have laid off at least one employee, some more, in order to be able to afford the increased premiums that we have to pay for ourselves. We are not rich and we are getting more "not rich" by the day. The government is taxing us to death already and this is just another tax to the middle class, small business owners.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Can you get something through your small business? There should be at least some kind of tax credit.

"A quick summary of what ObamaCare means for small businesses:

• ObamaCare creates the Small Business Health Options Program or SHOP, a part of each States Health Insurance Marketplace, where small businesses with under 50 full-time equivalent employees can shop for group health plans starting October 1st, 2013. In 2016 those with 100 full-timers or less can use the SHOP.

• Taxes and tax credits are based off of the number of full-time equivalent employees (FTE) and their average annual wages, not solely on the number of full-time employees.

• Small businesses with fewer than 25 full-time equivalent employees with average annual wages below $50,000 can get tax credits (as adjusted for inflation beginning in 2014) to help pay for employee premiums."

I'm not at all versed in the small business aspect, but there are two people I know, a plumber and a tile setter that each have few employees, that are happy as larks, pretty much buying better insurance for half of what they used to.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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pretty much buying better insurance for half of what they used to.

Really? Show us a comparison of their past and present plans. Are they buying bronze, silver or platinum plans? What are their ages? Deductibles? Out of pocket?

I purchase through COSE and nothing on the exchanges are close, not even close, to what our Anthem plan offers. Maybe CO is different.

Many well informed industry scholars agree that the premiums for comparable coverages are doubled.

Let's hear from more people who don't use the taxpayer subsidy or aren't on Medicare. I'd like to hear from some working couples with MAGI of $180,000+, age 63 to 65, not retired.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 23, 13 at 10:40

Not to worry, the repubs are on it.....

Zimmerman is a light weight when it comes to "knowing how to play the game". The repubs are even so bold as to call it their "Playbook". No solutions, just complaints, it's what they do best....in fact, it's all they do.

For those who think that Obamacare and/or the so-called Nuclear (or Nucular) Option will win them the Senate and WH, dream on. Some repubs may survive in their own pretzelized gerrymandered districts combined with new voter ID laws but too few really want them back in the drivers seat again. Their purely obstructionist ways, do nothing but get back into power agenda, combined with past and future Tea Party antics will eat them alive.


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Brush, these are small businesses with 3-4 employees, and these guys pay < $20 an hour, so qualify for tax rebates. I don't know what they did before, except complain.

At the link is a 'calculator' for small business.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

"For those who think that Obamacare and/or the so-called Nuclear (or Nucular) Option will win them the Senate and WH, dream on."


You can gloss over the details, but I'm guessing the voters won't.

What do you think the act of writing a check you can't afford to write, to satisfy a dictatorial regime does to the folks writing those checks? Have you considered it might reinforce the anger and mistrust they already feel toward Democrats who voted to put them in that situation?

Have you considered that the size of the pool of folks forced to subsidize the others is by necessity much larger than those on the receiving end? How do you think they're going to feel about paying their own freight along with somebody elses? My observation, thus far, is that the sacrificial lambs are not going quietly. They were played, and now they know it. And the cancellations for the employee paid plans will pick up speed in the next few months.

How do YOU respond when you find out you can't trust a person or a business...or a politician you mistook for having integrity? Do you really think the middle class will allow itself to be conned again, by the same bunch of liars whose dictates are costing them money they don't have? I don't.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

The ACA can be compared to this.

If my gross is $90,000 per year, I should pay twice as much for a Honda Accord than David.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 23, 13 at 13:28

"How do YOU respond when you find out you can't trust a person or a business...or a politician you mistook for having integrity? Do you really think the middle class will allow itself to be conned again, by the same bunch of liars whose dictates are costing them money they don't have? I don't.

What makes you think voters trust the repubs more than the demos? Obama has at least 30pts over the repubs in job approval (approx 39 to 9) while the TP drags them down further and further as time goes on. The public is well aware of the repub's tricks with more tricks coming down the pike. The ACA will help more people than it hurts by the next election, meanwhile the repubs will be stuck at 9% approval....and falling if the TP pulls more antics come Jan/Feb when budget and debt ceiling come back to haunt.


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Posted by brushworks Zone5-Ohio (My Page) on Sat, Nov 23, 13 at 12:40
The ACA can be compared to this.
If my gross is $90,000 per year, I should pay twice as much for a Honda Accord than David.

Versus the pre-ACA, where those with a gross of $90,000 can chose between an Accord, Civic, CRV, Fit, Odyssey, or Pilot, and David is refused because he was involved in an accident, not his fault, 15 years ago, but if he waits in line for a year and pays 2X what anyone else does, he can get a beater 1992 Civic. :-)

I think we need single payer, and I think we need to negotiate prices with medical suppliers and pharmaceuticals, and we need to change a system thats 'pay for service' to something that pays for outcomes.

They were saying this morning on the radio that something over half the people in this country over 90 years old had surgery this past year - in spite of some significant evidence that people over 90 shouldn't have any surgery because it kills so many of them.

But in my shoes, its now a year to year struggle to survive, and if the ACA lets me have health insurance I can afford for a few years before it tanks, I'll gladly take the two years. Which is way better than without it.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

  • Posted by rosie NE Georgia 7A/B (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 23, 13 at 17:19

SO agree we need single payer -- as an option.

The interests of profit-seekers in medicine and patients are diametrically opposed; and this being the world it is, profiteers will always be looking for ways to increase their profits -- any way they feel they can get away with it (i.e., the rare fine for illegal activities hardly anything to be feared). They always do.

Nevertheless, those who want it should always be able to purchase through the free market. Once it's competing with Medicare and Medicaid, most companies will choose to offer better coverages and prices and in turn require healthcare providers to become more efficient.

As for tanking, I believe the ACA is only going to develop more toward what we need it to be. The ACA is a very large breach in the conservative fort and the numbers and needs of those pouring through will only increase.

As for who pays for all of this? Some of the older free-riders (I know a number myself), who will finally start paying in, but mostly younger people. THEY're the largest group that has to pay more now than they would have had to before in order for it to be available for them later on when their illness rates rise.


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"But in my shoes, its now a year to year struggle to survive, and if the ACA lets me have health insurance I can afford for a few years before it tanks, I'll gladly take the two years. Which is way better than without it."

David, You're not the one who should be worrying about how you'll manage after obamacare collapses. The politicians who created this piece of carp should be figuring out how they're going to make sure that doesn't happen.


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Every time I hear someone say that they believed the pres. about being able to keep your insurance and doctor, I know they're one of those low-information voters. It reminds me of the difference between rape and rapture -- salesmanship. There sure are an awful lot of naïve people in this country.


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"There sure are an awful lot of naïve people in this country."

I guess that's why the government has to decide what is best for all of us, including the naive.


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It's probably all moot anyway. According to what I heard, a radiologist will be paid 20.00 for reading a mammogram. If this is true, good luck finding any dr that will accept your Obamacare.


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"According to what I heard, a radiologist will be paid 20.00 for reading a mammogram."

Yikes, I sure hope he/she can afford to pay attention.


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"But in my shoes, its now a year to year struggle to survive, and if the ACA lets me have health insurance I can afford for a few years before it tanks, I'll gladly take the two years. Which is way better than without it."

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So what if families who HAD affordable healthcare they liked and thought they could keep because they believed that liar Barack Obama can't make payments on their home and buy groceries as long as you have two years?

"I've got mine subsidized by you to hades with you?"


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That is beside the point. A liar is a liar. It's the pres that got what he wanted and the hades with the rest of you, I believe he purposefully gauges what he says to appeal to those that wouldn't know any better -- it's observed ALL the time.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

A liar is a liar.

Gee, that's what we tried to point out about George Bush and Dick Cheney. And how many people have died as a result of their lies? They wanted to attack Iraq and they assured everyone there was justification ... over and over.


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Agree.
Over time we come to recognize a kind of anomaly that when the U S chummies up to dictators of other countries, we'll stab them in the back (since you refer to Iraq) . This present danger we're talking about included.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

"According to what I heard, a radiologist will be paid 20.00 for reading a mammogram."

Hey, that's a brilliant idea! What could possibly go wrong? Any word on how much the surgeons get paid? If they're paying radiologists a pittance, I have to wonder what the plan is for getting surgeons to do the actual, life saving work. Can you imagine how many doctors will retire before they subject themselves to what obamacare has in store for them? A retired doctor friend says he is SO glad he got out before this mess came down on his profession.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Given that xrays can be read in places other than where the patient is now, I would not be surprised if the actual radiologist is getting LESS than 20 US dollars. The term is "teleradiology" where digital scans are read by radiologists not on site.

Using an overseas teleradiology company provides many advantages, says Sunita Maheshwari, MD, a consulting pediatric cardiologist and director of Teleradiology Solutions, a four-year-old teleradiology company located in Bangalore, India.

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

"The term is "teleradiology" where digital scans are read by radiologists not on site."

Thanks for the link. I think this is appalling. What happened to informed consent? Privacy? Now our medical records are sent to foreign countries to be read by people with credentials we know nothing about. I suspect this is not widely known by the American public. But it should be!


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 25, 13 at 12:30

Our personal records, including medical, have been outsourced for years ... long before ACA. Where was the outrage when this happened?

Not a peep ...unless it was to blame the American workers, silence when manufacturing went overseas and silence when the white collar jobs left.

But ya can run down to the local "mart" and get ya a good deal on a pair of jeans.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

They've been doing teleradiology for years now. Many of the smaller rural hospitals don't have enough business to keep a full-time radiologist on staff, so they send the images elsewhere for interpretation.

/nothing like getting a bill for $3200 for the MRI, then a month later, a radiologist bill for $700 to read what the MRI sez.

//in Japan, this whole process would be around $350.


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To be fair, sometimes the teleradiologist (if that is a term) is in the US, but more and more they are overseas because that is how the US companies make more money (or saves us money? Ha!).


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

  • Posted by rosie NE Georgia 7A/B (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 25, 13 at 13:32

If it makes anyone happier, Medicare and Medicaid require the readings be done on U.S. Whatever the reason is, it's not quality or security. DH's MRI was read in the middle of the night by a Nighthawk radiologist a few years ago now, so probably in Australia. They were also in Switzerland at that time.


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"Where was the outrage when this happened?"

You assume people knew about it. How were people informed this was going on?


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"The term is "teleradiology" where digital scans are read by radiologists not on site."

I know it's not the actual subject, but that practice would make me just a little bit uncomfortable. I'd prefer my own doctor or specialist read the results, thank you very much.


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"You assume people knew about it. How were people informed this was going on?"

I didn't know that, either; it never occurred to me. Ignorance is bliss? Anyway, the current situation is right in our faces; of course we're talking about it, and some of us don't llike it. Outrage? Overused word, IMO; it's lost its zip.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

How were people informed this was going on?

Like everything else in our lives we seek out information and learn about the constant changes especially in medical care. We make sure we are informed by speaking to doctors and asking questions; reading, talking to others, etc.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Silly me. I should have asked my doctor "Say, Doc; been outsourcing my records lately?"


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 25, 13 at 20:33

It started in 2000 and was even "gasp" reported in the news....this article is from 2005.

"When American manufacturing jobs headed overseas in the 1990s, supporters of tariff-free trade argued that newly unemployed workers could simply find jobs in the growing high-tech sector. Yet multinational corporations soon outsourced white-collar and service-industry jobs as well, with overseas labor fielding support questions from computer users, programming software, and even examining X-rays and MRI scans for American consumers"

Here is a link that might be useful: Exporting American Jobs


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Is there really any loss of privacy in having a distant person look at a woman's current and previous mammogram scan to determine if there's been any change? You don't even have to know the woman's name to do it.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Silly me. I should have asked my doctor "Say, Doc; been outsourcing my records lately?"

Thanks OM, it certainly hasn't been kept a secret all these years. Silly to not know about the changes after all these years. Reading is a good way to keep up with the changing trends in medical care and helps inform one to ask relevant questions of their healthcare providers.

I guess it depends on the person, their own knowledge as well as their rapport with their healthcare provider that also makes a dfference. When one learns about it and then goes to the doctor it isn't absurd to ask if and what they outsource as well as other pertinent questions. Some doctors may also offer up the information if you are having a discussion.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Mon, Nov 25, 13 at 21:07


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Well the radiologist that reads my xrays is local. And he sure isn't going to read them and dictate a report for 20 bucks.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

I certainly would like to keep every job in the US if possible. But we all know that for-profit businesses are free to make business decisions that benefit their bottom line. And choosing to have services performed in other countries where labor is cheaper is one such way of reducing costs.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

"Silly me. I should have asked my doctor "Say, Doc; been outsourcing my records lately?"

Hahahaha! Given that Americans are used to signing documents giving PERMISSION before their medical records can be released, it's asinine to suggest they were worried about unauthorized release of their medical records to unknown individuals in foreign countries.

I think most Americans would be shocked to learn what HHS says about "authorization" and their Xrays. Sounds like lobbyists and politicians quietly got together to make it easier for health care professionals to disclose our supposedly "protected" medical records...without our knowledge or permission.

According to HHS, "The Privacy Rule allows those doctors, nurses, hospitals, laboratory technicians, and other health care providers that are covered entities to use or disclose protected health information, such as X-rays, laboratory and pathology reports, diagnoses, and other medical information for treatment purposes without the patient’s authorization. This includes sharing the information to consult with other providers, including providers who are not covered entities, to treat a different patient, or to refer the patient. See 45 CFR 164.506".


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

  • Posted by rosie NE Georgia 7A/B (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 7:40

Remember when charts used to hang on the wall outside a patient's room for anyone to read? No more. Under Obamacare, even a physician cannot read a patient's health record, on a wall or anywhere else, if he is not involved in the patient's care. It's now against the law.

The law discussed here allows physicians to consult and work with each other on a patient without obtaining specific written permission from the patient each time, which, needless to say, could be problematic. Similar provisions allow insurance adjusters and transcription companies access.

As for where a radiologist is, does anyone REALLY care outside of looking for something to be unhappy about? Who'd care if this were a GOP program with strong base support? This isn't a football game. We're not teams running a stupid ball around. WHAT an issue is intrinsically is should be what matters, not who is for and who is against.

When the technician disappeared with my last mammogram to discuss it with the radiologist, I just assumed that faceless person was on site, but he or she could as easily have been in India. Whether a person looking at my imaging is in the next room or on another continent is totally irrelevant to my care. And I do not care.

My privacy concerns are also unaffected as the same U.S. laws apply to all my records regardless of provider location. The only difference is that the U.S. would not indict a provider in Canada but would instead bring charges against the U.S. entity that hired him, in this case my local radiology lab.

And now that the ACA and its cascade of regulations is in effect, we do do just that. Patient privacy is taken very seriously and provider practices are monitored closely, with routine on-site audits of provider facilities, such as hospitals, to make sure they're in compliance. Obamacare requires everyone maintain electronic patient healthcare records, and we now know every person who accesses an electronic patient file, when, and what changes were made, regardless of where a person is, whether a surgeon who just finished up a 5-hour operation or a transcriber working from home in Montana.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Mrsk, what's your source for the $20 mammogram amount? you say you heard it...heard it from whom?


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd: subject: OBAMACARE WILL DESTROY RADIOLOGY AS WE KNOW IT!!@!!!


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

"As for where a radiologist is, does anyone REALLY care outside of looking for something to be unhappy about?"

Answering that question would require informed patients, something the language specifically excludes.

I prefer my medical records remain inside the US. However, I have no objection to yours going to Bangalore if that is your preference.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Answering that question would require informed patientsKnowing about the changing face of healthcare also requires being informed. Apparently there are some who haven't kept up with the changes or this is just more selective outrage since it has been happening for years now...long before the ACA,

I prefer my medical records remain inside the US.

Then all you have to do is choose a doctor who does just that. Simple.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Wed, Nov 27, 13 at 12:38


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

"When the technician disappeared with my last mammogram to discuss it with the radiologist, I just assumed that faceless person was on site, but he or she could as easily have been in India."

I'm guessing most women make that same assumption. Which is my point. This is allowed to take place without a woman's knowledge or consent.

Thanks again to esh for bringing this to my attention. I will be passing along to my friends that their electeds approved of sending their mammograms abroad for inspection. I want them to understand that these electeds (mostly men) specifically wrote into the law that this sneaky practice can take place without their knowledge or permission.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Nik, I have no idea what law you are referring to but hospitals and doctors are for profit , private businesses. As such I'm sure they can outsource services as they see fit. Just like any other business.

When you have a CT or any other image taken you authorize the hospital to have it read. By whom and where may be of concern to you but I suspect the only legal requirement is that the radiologist be properly licensed.


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

that their electeds approved of sending their mammograms abroad

Where is this coming from? This was a practice long before any "elected" person got involved.

And it's not just mammograms that it is done for.

And it CAN be done in a way to protect the patient's privacy. I don't know what information gets sent with the image. A simple tracking number would suffice and not reveal any information about the patient.

I don't like the practice because I'd rather keep the jobs in the US. Teleradiology is practiced in the US (that is the readers are in another state, not in the next room).


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RE: Employer insurance cancellations ahead

Not only that, one of my doctors is named Patel and he has an accent.


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