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I Have A Question...

Posted by magic_az (My Page) on
Wed, Nov 13, 13 at 15:28

What happens if the hundreds of thousands of people whose insurance is being cancelled through no fault of their own, are unable to get insurance through the exchange by the end of the year and on January 1st, they are uninsured.
On January 2nd, something horrific happens and they are completely unprotected, can they sue the US government?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: I Have A Question...

Couldn't something untoward happen on the first?


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RE: I Have A Question...

Well, okay. Something untoward happens on the first, the third, fourth,etc. Pick a date. They are uninsured through no fault of their own.

The question is can they hold the government responsible?

My guess is yes.


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RE: I Have A Question...

You can't sue the government unless the government says you can sue them. Look up the phrase "sovereign immunity".


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RE: I Have A Question...

An individual attempting to sue the government?

The government enjoys "sovereign immunity" and isn't likely to waive it so a suit could go forward. It's a throwback to the king being beyond suits or prosecution.


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RE: I Have A Question...

I read something about that recently... though I can't recall where... there will be an extension put in place due to the fact that a lot of glitches experienced were not foreseen.

I'm sure someone could find it if they did a quick search... I'm baking cookies at the moment, and they are time sensitive.


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RE: I Have A Question...

Oh, you can sue the government, it's just more difficult that it would be a private person.

"Under the Federal Torts Claims Act, you can sue the federal government if you suffered injuries due to the actions of certain government employees. The FTCA dictates that a lawsuit is a potential remedy in cases of:

“injury or loss of property, or personal injury or death caused by the negligent or wrongful act or omission of any employee of the Government while acting within the scope of his office or employment, under circumstances where the United States, if a private person, would be liable to the claimant in accordance with the law of the place where the act or omission occurred.”

I would think that if you lost everything you own because you were uninsured because of an act by the Government, that qualifies for the above circumstances.

That said Jodik, I have searched and searched but could not find where that circumstance is addressed.


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RE: I Have A Question...

Get on the ball and get your ACA insurance now. Then you won't have to worry about such scenarios.

You don't have to use the web site, you know. Try the phone.

Besides, the fine (if that is what you are worrying about) doesn't start until March 2014 and isn't really that large. No one is likely to go bankrupt because of it.

Most of us already have insurance--the insurance we get at our jobs or Medicare, so we don't need to apply for insurance. Don't you already have some insurance?

Kate


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RE: I Have A Question...

I'm sure the ACA enrollment period will extend beyond the current March date - I'd wager into June 2014 or so. The problem would be/will be with current insurance contracts expiring on December 31, 2013. If one doesn't sign on to a policy the company is offering at higher rates, or doesn't enroll in one of the exchange offerings - the person will not have insurance. An extension won't cover someone with a lapsed policy.


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RE: I Have A Question...

magic: Again, you can sue the government but the government has to agree to be sued.


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RE: I Have A Question...

My question is: why didn't the health insurance companies tell people some time ago that their current policies were not going to be renewed?

Why didn't they say so when they issued them, or when the legislation passed?


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RE: I Have A Question...

The American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) is going to challenge government if it tries to levy penalties on citizens who can't comply with the law before the enrollment period ends. They take on government all the time. So does the ACLU. It's a great question!

FTA: "The administration is on the verge of imposing tax penalties on millions of Americans for their alleged failure to obtain insurance policies they can’t actually obtain. With the recent leak that less than 50,000 Americans have “enrolled” in the federal exchanges (a number that apparently includes thousands who haven’t actually purchased insurance), it is a sad fact that the majority of Americans who want to purchase insurance " either because they need it or want to escape the tax penalty " cannot purchase it, and there’s currently no assurance that they’ll have a satisfactory opportunity by the time the penalty applies.

At the ACLJ we’ve drafted a complaint that we’ll be ready to file the very instant the enrollment period ends, if the exchanges aren’t fixed with adequate time for citizens to enroll. Imposing tax penalties when the government itself " through its own incompetence " makes compliance impossible is, quite simply, unconstitutional."

Here is a link that might be useful: ACLJ prepares challenge


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RE: I Have A Question...

I got my app finished the other day, through the MA interface.


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RE: I Have A Question...

david, could it be that everyone believed the president?


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RE: I Have A Question...

I do not believe the Government has to agree to be sued Under the Federal Torts Claims Act. I am not a Lawyer, but that's how I read it.

I am really not asking about the tax.

I am saying that my insurance is canceled as of December 31st. If I am unable to buy insurance because the government makes compliance impossible, and something catastrophic happens to me on January 6th, is the government responsible for all my bills since they are the ones who caused me to lose my insurance?

On the other hand, if my premium has literally doubled and I simply cannot afford new insurance, something happens, I have to declare bankruptcy, is the government at fault? After all, I had insurance that I could afford and because of this new law, now I can't.

Is it constitutional for the POTUS to give a years extension to businesses with more than 50 employees and not to everyone else? Don't you think that will be a huge legal issue when they try to penalize anyone?

These are just questions that I have been pondering.


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RE: I Have A Question...

"Get on the ball and get your ACA insurance now. Then you won't have to worry about such scenarios."

i thought "gun to the head" scenarios were frowned upon on this forum.


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RE: I Have A Question...

I am saying that my insurance is canceled as of December 31st. If I am unable to buy insurance because the government makes compliance impossible, and something catastrophic happens to me on January 6th, is the government responsible for all my bills since they are the ones who caused me to lose my insurance?

Actually, the government is us so if you need to be hospitalized on January 6 and you don't have any insurance, we will all be paying for it.

When you say the government makes compliance impossible what do you mean? You may not be able to sign up on the web site but you can certainly pick up the phone, right? If you really can't afford it, then you will qualify for a subsidy, right? I don't see how any of these scenarios makes the government negligent or liable.

Also if you are in a state that chose not to participate in the ACA, perhaps it would be more appropriate to sue the state since they neglected to provide what other states are providing to their residents.

The bottom line is this; if you lost your insurance because it didn't quality, then the insurance was crappy and you would be paying hefty bills anyway (or we would be paying your hefty bills).

Here is a link that might be useful: Info on the Federal Tort Claims Act


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RE: I Have A Question...

The above was a "what if" scenario. Nothing more.

Obviously you and several others here do not have to deal with this so it's very easy for you to say "just do it".

I have been trying for weeks to "just do it". It doesn't work. They do not return phone calls and I have left several messages.Based on this years income I don't qualify for subsidy's but that doesn't mean that I can automatically come up with an extra $600-$700 dollars per month.

Can you?

Fortunately, they are basing it on 2014 ESTIMATED income. Hmmm...

If the government passes a law that is forcing me to purchase something I can't afford, punishes me when I don't and then makes it impossible to get, I call that negligent.

I am self employed with bills just like the rest of you. The difference is, I don't have someone (employer) paying half my premiums. I also have a child in college full time, who by the way, doesn't get any monetary school help either because he is white, his parents work very hard and pay taxes, and are legal citizens of this country, so, no help for you.

And no, my insurance was not crap, as you say. No matter how many times you repeat that, it doesn't make it so. It is way better than what I am being offered for MY family and half the price. It is obvious that some of you really don't understand how this is affecting some people because you got yours, right?


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RE: I Have A Question...

Why do you even bother to argue with each other........


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"It is obvious that some of you really don't understand how this is affecting some people because you got yours, right?"

That's right, magic. You're talking to a Medicare bunch here, for the most part, with enough supplemental income that they are here instead of standing at the end of the checkout line: "paper or plastic?"


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RE: I Have A Question...

Yes, nothing wrong with my insurance status:

SINGLE PAYER INSURANCE SYSTEM (with a bit of added coverage supplied by Anthem Blue Cross, for the time being.


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That's right, magic. You're talking to a Medicare bunch here, for the most part, with enough supplemental income that they are here instead of standing at the end of the checkout line: "paper or plastic?"

Well since I've been paying into the system for the past 50 years I think I deserve to get something out of it. It's really not too much to ask.

Elvis, You do realize that people can draw Medicare and also hold meaningful jobs, right? What you said was really insulting and offensive. I consider you an ageist because of your intolerance toward older people.

This post was edited by jerzeegirl on Wed, Nov 13, 13 at 23:05


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RE: I Have A Question...

" I consider you an ageist because of your intolerance toward older people."

That's fine. What you think of me is really none of my business, but thanks for sharing.


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RE: I Have A Question...

Whatever. Just as long as we all know what kind of person you are.


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RE: I Have A Question...

Magic, I pay over a thousand smackeroos a month for my health insurance, not including copays and a small employer kick-in for spouses. It is not changing at all under the ACA.

It's hardly a case of "I've got mine". It's more a case of "welcome to the club."

What are the actual differences between what you had and what you're now being offered, in price and coverage?


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RE: I Have A Question...

Like everybody else, I am being forced to pay for Maternity coverage, pediatric dentistry, pediatric vision, birth control, etc. All the stuff that the government is saying must be provided but I don't need.
Joe down the street from me has 16 kids and can't afford them so MY premium and MY deductible increased 3 times in order to pick up the slack from Joe down the street.

I don't really understand how some here can't see the injustice and unfairness of this law to so many people. I personally think it's because they choose not to.

I also have been paying into the system for 35 years, don't I deserve something back too?? Or is it only for people over 65 at this point? And I am not intolerant towards older people but I am intolerant towards the attitude that some of you here have about this whole thing.

Once again. It's the "I got mine and the rest of you younger peeps should just suck it up and pay more to support what I deserve" or "what I think I deserve".

Who's the ageist now?

Chase is right, this is dumb. You won't see what you refuse to no matter how I try to explain. The way this thing is playing out, it probably won't matter anyhow. Even the Democrats are backing away at this point. It's just a bad way plan to do a good thing.


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RE: I Have A Question...

It is obvious that some of you really don't understand how this is affecting some people because you got yours, right?

*

Sure looks that way, eh?


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RE: I Have A Question...

I don't know about you two but I have worked hard all my life to achieve what I have and I am still working, unlike some of you.

The fact is that nobody has "got theirs" because nobody knows what is around the corner. Today you're fine, tomorrow you might have a catastrophic accident or illness that wipes you out even with plenty of insurance.

The difference between you and me is that I don't have a problem helping other people obtain healthcare for themselves and their children. I think it's a good policy for this country to pursue and I am willing to sacrifice to make sure everyone can have this basic right.

Oh and by the way, in case you think that people on Medicare "have it all", for your $104 premium, it pays only 80% and you are responsible for the rest. If you want to buy insurance to cover the gap, it costs upward of $350/month in my area and more in other zip codes. That's a hefty sum for, let's say, someone who is drawing only a social security check and doesn't have a steady income.

I don't know why you two are saying these things. The fact that you two think this stuff makes me kind of despair for this country.


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RE: I Have A Question...

Like everybody else, I am being forced to pay for Maternity coverage, pediatric dentistry, pediatric vision, birth control, etc. All the stuff that the government is saying must be provided but I don't need.

I honestly don't understand this objection. I don't have any kids, but I've been paying for all YOUR family's pregnancies via my insurance policy my whole life. I've been paying for others' prostate cancer (I don't have a prostate), emphysema (I don't smoke), stomach staples (I'm in shape), insulin (I don't have diabetes), etc etc etc. That's how an insurance pool works.

Magic, what are the actual differences between what you had and what you're now being offered, in price and coverage?


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RE: I Have A Question...

magic -- Are you not angry at the insurance companies that have jacked up their premiums? After all, they are the ones demanding more money.


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RE: I Have A Question...

Why not look at why health care is so expensive in the US in the first place, instead of ripping at each others' throats while the greed heads make off with $$$billions?

Why can't Medicare negotiate the price of drugs?
Why do we just shut up and pay what ever Amgen asks for some new cancer drug?

Why does it cost $9,000 to have a baby in the US?

At the link, use the mouse to scroll over and see the actual prices.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to chart of comparative costs per proceedure


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RE: I Have A Question...

david52 -- Yup. That's why I posted about Americans held hostage for thirty years while other nations have government controlled health costs.


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RE: I Have A Question...

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 14:27

The rats fight among themselves while the keepers look into the box from above.

It's not the corporations, it's the big family down the street, the Mexicans coming over the border, any other "different" people that make easy targets for blame.


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RE: I Have A Question...

Now its pregnant females with 17 children and...

No, the blame game will continue, as long as the curtain remains over the Wizard of Oz Insurance Companies.

That is not altogether fair because the insurance companies are only trying to maintain double-digit profitability while struggling with health industries trying to maintain double-digit profitability while also paying for millions of uninsured and under-insured customers using those health facilities. What could go wrong with such a system?


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bboy said:
The rats fight among themselves while the keepers look into the box from above.
It's not the corporations, it's the big family down the street, the Mexicans coming over the border, any other "different" people that make easy targets for blame.

That is the entire GOP&T party platform in a nutshell and it is oh so easy to sell to very receptive minds.
Initially this was just a Southern Strategy. Since President Obama was elected the Southern Strategy has expanded to include immigrants, the poor, the unemployed, teachers, government workers, Unions and primarily President Obama as the symbol of who and what they hate.


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RE: I Have A Question...

"I have been trying for weeks to "just do it". It doesn't work. They do not return phone calls and I have left several messages.Based on this years income I don't qualify for subsidy's but that doesn't mean that I can automatically come up with an extra $600-$700 dollars per month."

Do you have a Republican Senator or House member? I would call their office for help right now. If you have to rely on a Democrat, that may be OK, too. They're bailing on the president. This is not a minor problem, and you need to bring the adverse impact this law has on you to the attention of your electeds immediately. You might be surprised at how concerned they are, now that the ACA has hit the fan. Don't stew about this for another day. Get on the phone.


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Well, the Republican House has decided to take the rest the year off, so good luck.


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Is this the GOP's last stand against President Obama?


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They seem to be acting that way. Last stand at the GOPalamo,


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"Is this the GOP's last stand against President Obama?"

Nope. What makes you think the president matters? He's on automatic self destruct. They don't have to do a thing.

Besides, they work for an electorate that is done being pushed around.

Who do you think prevails? A president and politicians who exempted themselves from obamacare, but arranged special subsidies for their pals, just in case they need them? Or an enraged electorate who won't forgive the president and the Democrats for passing a law they knew would strip them of the plans and doctors they chose for themselves?


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You should step out of that bubble.


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Think out side of the FOX, as it were.


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David Frum is seeing the same "page" of twisted narratives in the Right Bubble:

"
On Fox News' "The Five," moderator Greg Gutfeld offered up this comment in a jokey yuck-yuck tone:

"Obama is now out of the closet … he's officially gay for class warfare."


Speaking of opening the closet, Gutfeld's comment exposes something important that many observers miss about this campaign and the way Fox News covers it:

It's very important to understand that for Fox viewers, Fox is only the most visible part of a vast alternative reality. Fox's coverage of the news cannot be properly understood in isolation, but only in conjunction with the rest of that system�"and especially the chain emails that do so much to shape the worldview of Fox viewers.


You cannot "get" Gutfeld's joke unless you "get" that a large part of his audience ardently believes that Obama is in fact gay, that his marriage is a sham, and that Mrs. Obama leads a life of Marie Antoinette like extravagance to compensate her for her husband's neglect while he disports himself with his personal aides.

Don't believe me? Just as an indicator, try this:

Google: obama + gay + "reggie love"

That search pulls up more than 80,000 hits."

AND:

"Thus when Fox reports on (false) claims that President Obama seeks to limit military voting, they report to an audience that has for years absorbed a fictitious narrative about systematic presidential disrespect for the military.

Eg, like this:" [another chain mailing] [[snip]]]

"You'll not hear something quite so bizarre as that on television. But Fox News is edited and reported for an audience much of which believes such stories to be true, and edited and reported by producers and on-screen talent highly attuned to those beliefs."

Here is a link that might be useful: FOX News & email chains


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RE: I Have A Question...

•Posted by chisue (My Page) on Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 14:13

"david52 -- Yup. That's why I posted about Americans held hostage for thirty years while other nations have government controlled health costs."

Yup yup. That's why I've posted more than once that until our health care costs are regulated, no system is going to work. Cart before the horse, I keep sayin'.


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Well, elvis, I think you are right. However, I surmise that any attempt at regulation would generate cries of "socialism" from the free market crowd.


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RE: I Have A Question...

•Posted by jerzeegirl 9 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 14, 13 at 18:00

"Well, elvis, I think you are right. However, I surmise that any attempt at regulation would generate cries of "socialism" from the free market crowd."

On this particular issue, I think everyone except the mega corporations affected would agree that regulation of health care costs, including pharmas, is
absolutely essential.


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Elvis, I wish I had your faith but experience tells me that these megacorps employ lots of PR and minions specializing in manipulating web chat and comments sites. These companies or their associations have armies of consultants/lobbyists working the halls of governments on their behalf.\


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Marshall, thanks; I realize that.


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Bingo, Marshallz... and the more exposure, however misleading and misinformed, the better... and still garners the mega number of hits on search engines and all over the world wide web that the party needs.


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And to beat my latest hugely dead horse...

Too many of us are easily convinced about the evils of programs and projects of great personal or community value if our favorite buttons are pushed so that we lose whatever common sense we might have developed.

It is better to be dead than Red (or a liberal Obama supporter, ACA supporter). When these sorrry souls and their families are dead or dying or destitute, who will they blame for the killings-by-insurance-companies? Why Obama of course, that foreign gay Muslim anti-American commie socialist fascist.


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I really don't get it... it was praised under the name RomneyCare, and the people liked it.

One name change... one particular name... and, Kaboom! It's now the most hated, most vilified, most awful thing to ever have been penned!

What gives, I ask rhetorically?


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"Too many of us are easily convinced about the evils of programs and projects of great personal or community value if our favorite buttons are pushed so that we lose whatever common sense we might have developed."

Sure; there is a lot of that. However, there are also too many of us who are easily convinced that programs and projects that should be of great personal or community value are just as wonderful as they sound on paper. The AHCA sounds like a good idea; it should be a good idea. But it's full of major flaws; many of these were pointed out long ago. Bottom line is that it wasn't/isn't ready. I'm real tired of the phrase "rammed;" use any phrase that suits, common sense tells me that if the AHCA was such a great idea there wouldn't have been this much resistance.

We all have skin in this game.


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RE: I Have A Question...

I deplore the "rammed" aspect but the Repubs refused to participate except to add budget and program killers. This bill is pretty close to the one proposed by the Heritage Institute and follows Gov. Romney's bill closely, except that it relies too much on the insurance industry and op-out opportunities for the States. Too many (all Repub. controlled) opted out, putting terrible load of program and expectations on the Federal services for enrolling not only the uninsured but anyone else wanting in.


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RE: I Have A Question...

All true, marshall. You say "...except that it relies too much on the insurance industry..." That's the other shoe dropping, and it's really BIG. Ouch.

States' rights are another issue for another thread (I'm for 'em).


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RE: I Have A Question...

Me too, but we don't have states' right for foreign policy and military matters, nor for commerce except for limited functions like agricultural products. Universal health care ought to be in the same league, coverage should be transferable across State borders.


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"...we don't have states' right for foreign policy and military matters, nor for commerce except for limited functions like agricultural products."

I know; and I think that's a good thing.

"Universal health care ought to be in the same league, coverage should be transferable across State borders."

I disagree with you there.

Sure, if I'm in another state my Wisconsin health insurance should cover me there, and pay up, and it does. I should also be able to buy insurance that has its corporate offices in another state. I never could figure that one out.


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RE: I Have A Question...

Not all insurance companies are registered to business in every state; some are very limited and offer only limited coverage beyond their area of coverage. There is rarely reciprocity among health insurers. There is no universality in such a system. More like monarchical system of fiefdoms although consolidations and mergers have reduced the number of small providers.


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RE: I Have A Question...

I think the difference is that the states regulate insurance in each of their respective jurisdicitions - so, for example, in California they may require insurance companies to cover asbestosis, and in Mississippi they don't have to. In Colorado, they require that all major med polices cover out-patient care for three months, other states nothing at all.

So United Health Care sells policies in a whole bunch of states, but each state has its own subsidiary that follows that states' insurance laws.

Likewise, if you want to complain, you go to your states' insurance people.

The push for nationwide policy issue is the same scam as credit cards - go bribe contribute heavily in South Dakota so that their laws governing credit card interest rates are sky high, then make arbitration mandatory, no law suits, and so on - everything in the card companies' favor.

They just want to do the same thing with health insurance. Get some policy issued in Mississippi, and if you don't like the way you were treated, your only option is to file a complaint with some arbitration panel in Biloxi.


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