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Big Game Backlash

Posted by silversword 9A (My Page) on
Tue, Nov 19, 13 at 15:55

From the link:

More than 250,000 people have signed an online petition demanding that South Africa deny future entry to Melissa Bachman, a big game hunter whose smiling photo with a dead lion has sparked considerable outrage.

The petition, launched by Cape Town resident Elan Burman, includes a letter addressed to Director General Mkuseli Apleni and other South African officials.

"She is an absolute contradiction to the culture of conservation this country prides itself on," Burman wrote. "Her latest Facebook post features her with a lion she has just executed and murdered in our country. As taxpayers we demand she no longer be granted access to this country and its natural resources."

According to Change.org, Burman's petition has 257,753 supporters. A Facebook group called "Stop Melissa Bachman" has more than 148,000 "likes."

"Stop the murder of wildlife for the sport," a message on the group's Facebook page reads. "Stop Melissa Bachman and people like her from pulling the trigger.

"An incredible day hunting in South Africa!" Bachman, a Minnesota native, wrote on Facebook and Twitter Nov. 1. "Stalked inside 60 yards on this beautiful male lion ... what a hunt!"

Big game hunting in Africa has long been criticized by animal rights activists, but proponents say the money hunters spend during their trips boosts the local economy, and supports conservation projects.

According to Grind TV, Bachman killed the lion during a guided hunt facilitated by the Maroi Conservancy. And according to Maroi, the hunt was perfectly legal.

End Quote


My personal thoughts on this are that I don't like wanton killing. But, they say this animal was free-range - which is better than we can say for the animals we torture and kill in America. Thoughts?

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Big Game Backlash

Very disturbing. I think I can safely assume she did not intend to eat the lion.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

I'm not so sure what "Free Range" lion means in the South African Game management / game farm situation, which is generally fenced-off acreage where the animals are carefully managed. At the link is the outfit she was hunting with, and you can click through and get a .pdf for the prices of various animals, I don't see lions. But it isn't cheap by a long shot.

Anyway, this sort of 'conservancy' hunting is big business in South Africa, and a major part of the economy. Arguably, it helps protect the animals and keeps them at a healthy population.

There has been some recent (15-20 year old studies) on lion hunting that many people didn't know before - kill the dominant male in a pride, and the next male up kills all the off-spring of the one who was killed - and that can be 10-20 cubs. So the guides now try to have their hunters shoot the single, solitary males and leave the pride male alone. I dunno if thats the case here.

Anyway, my thought is why the uproar over this person, now? This stuff goes on all the time. And watching the hunting shows on TV, there are some really awful people out hunting and filming themselves - drunk, shooting from the back of trucks, and I watched one show where I'd swear they drugged some lion out of a zoo and stuck him 10 yards from the road so the guy could shoot it - not a scar on the thing, just staring like a fool at a truck drives up next to it.

Here is a link that might be useful: hunting outfit


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Give me a break - rich folks do this all the time. Go to the websites of safari hunting hosts - they have photo galleries of whole pleased families sitting smugly while they touch their large trophies.

How is it different from the daily slaughter-house holocaust? Or from how the pioneers extirpated nearly every wolf, bear and cougar from north america south of the Yukon territory?


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RE: Big Game Backlash

"Anyway, this sort of 'conservancy' hunting is big business in South Africa, and a major part of the economy. Arguably, it helps protect the animals and keeps them at a healthy population.

There has been some recent (15-20 year old studies) on lion hunting that many people didn't know before - kill the dominant male in a pride, and the next male up kills all the off-spring of the one who was killed - and that can be 10-20 cubs. So the guides now try to have their hunters shoot the single, solitary males and leave the pride male alone. I dunno if thats the case here."

Good information, david. Why the outrage? Well, I hope it's not because her name is Bachman (sounds/.looks like Bachmann) from Minnesota.


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The outrage probably derives due to the fact she is a good looker, she works very hard at what she does and she is damn good at it. The meat from these animals goes to the natives, a source of protein they may not otherwise get. + its a very good source of income for those countries with those game animals.
Good for her.


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Ah. More information. Sometimes things are not quite as outrageous as they seem at first blush.


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I saw that this morning, Silver... plus, another trophy kill, this time an elephant, with the proud hunter standing over it, and the picture's caption tell us that it's "the Executive Chairman (former CEO) and Founder of GoDaddy.com, Bob Parsons on his trip to Africa in 2011. Not the first one he has killed according to him."

As you know, I'm okay with hunting... FOR FOOD. I'm okay with managing the populations of animals that we hunt for food, because otherwise, there would be an overpopulation, and deer and such would die from starvation and disease, etc...

When we hunt deer, or whatever animal is in season, we utilize as much of it as we possibly can.

I'm NOT okay with hunting what are, in many places, endangered animals for the sheer thrill of the kill and the trophy to hang on the wall! In my book, that's wrong. It's wasteful, it's disrespectful, it's obnoxious, and it's just wrong.


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"I'm NOT okay with hunting what are, in many places, endangered animals for the sheer thrill of the kill and the trophy to hang on the wall! In my book, that's wrong. It's wasteful, it's disrespectful, it's obnoxious, and it's just wrong."

Ditto to that. I thought that went without saying in this crowd, jodi. I seriously doubt anyone will disagree with you on that.


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Most people don't have a clue about hunting Africa and other exotic locations. There hasn't been much indiscriminate big game hunting in many years now. Its all well managed and expensive, and hard work. Some hunters prepare for a year and more for the trip. One woman, who killed a Cape buffalo, An elephant, a jaguar and a lion, the big 4 dangerous game, with a bow, worked for over a year just to build up her strength to pull the string. She is a very serious hunter. Youd have to be to go aftter those 4 critters with a bow, albeit a 90 pound draw.
My gr Uncle was a big game hunter, all over the world. his trophy room was beyond belief. He, unfortunately, hunted before there were restrictions. I don't think he was a game hog but his stories told of some stuff I would frown upon. He hunted with an emir who saved his life when he was left for dead after a tank battle with Rommel in N Africa.

I could kill almost anything but no tiger and no elephant.


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"One woman, who killed a Cape buffalo, An elephant, a jaguar and a lion, the big 4 dangerous game"

I didn't realize that a jaguar was part of the "Big Four."


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According to Wikipedia, ff is close:

"In Africa, the big five game animals are the lion, African elephant, Cape buffalo, leopard, and rhinoceros.[1] The term big five game (sometimes capitalized or quoted as "Big Five") was coined by big-game hunters and refers to the five most difficult animals in Africa to hunt on foot. Subsequently the term was adopted by safari tour operators for marketing purposes.[2] The term is used in most tourist and wildlife guides that discuss African wildlife safaris. The members of the Big Five were chosen for the difficulty in hunting them and the degree of danger involved, rather than their size.[2][3]"

Here is a link that might be useful: Big Five


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Yeah, he is only a continent off (and an extra species).

This post was edited by frank_il on Tue, Nov 19, 13 at 22:52


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Actually the jaguar (South America) could be mistaken for a leopard or vice versa. Big cat, spots.

And you're right; he missed the rhino. Don't send him to Jeopardy!


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"Actually the jaguar (South America) could be mistaken for a leopard or vice versa. Big cat, spots."

Not by anyone who knows animals.


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Keep in mind that among conservationists, eg those that wish to preserve open space, access to public and private land, wilderness areas, and diverse, intact ecosystems and habitat, hunters and fishermen are way ahead of everybody else I can think of. They put up their money and time in the US and Canada via ducks unlimited, elk unlimited, trout unlimited, turkeys unlimited and other similar organizations.

In Africa, if it wasn't for high-paying clients coming in to hunt trophies, most of the game would be gone within a few years and the land used for something else.


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"Jaguar vs. Leopard

The leopard is found across Africa, Asia, and the Amur region of Russia. Jaguars are found in all of south and central america, and in recent years, north to the U. S. border with Mexico in Texas, as well. The jaguar has a shorter, more stocky build than the leopard. Also, the jaguar tends to have larger rosettes with spots in the middle; the leopard has plain rosettes with no central spot in the middle. In addition, jaguars have a much broader forehead and wider jaw because they kill their prey differently than leopards. Unlike other big cats, jaguars kill prey by crushing the spinal column and must have a much stronger bite in order to do so. This means that the shape of their skull is unique among the cat species. As a result, they have the strongest bite-force of any member of the cat family--even stronger than lions and tigers.

The jaguar weighs twice as much on average than a leopard."

Hmmm. Looking into its eyes just before it struck, I don't know that I would notice. If I had to pick, I guess I'd rather be attacked by a leopard; you, frank?

Here is a link that might be useful: Jaguar vs. Leopard


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Jaguar, they generally are not man eaters.


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The hunt I would pay to see is let this b!tch loose in an enclosed area with free running lions. Would love to see them rip that smirk off her ugly face!


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Wow! And would she be running bare aspirin?


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Actually, as long as there is no poaching... animals aren't taken illegally... and there's no danger of extinction, and the game is managed well in areas, hunting is not a bad thing... as long as the meat and anything usable is donated to those who need it.

But just to kill something for the sheer thrill, take the trophy part and leave the rest to rot... and most especially when poached, taken illegally... or taken from an area where the population is in danger of becoming extinct... this is the wrong part. This is what most people object to.

Yes, David... there are several organizations that help manage and maintain wildlife for hunting... which is a good thing.

Generally speaking, animals don't attack unless they feel threatened, or are sick or wounded, or starving... or are protecting their young. It is we, humankind, who have encroached upon their territory, and have threatened their survival in many cases. If we use logic, caution, and common sense, it's unlikely we'll be attacked by any large wild animals. It's very helpful to know the animals within an area, and have a decent knowledge of what to do in case confronted or startled by a large, dangerous animal.

It's not really fair to demonize any animal for biting or harming humans if the fault is clearly human... and in most cases, it is our fault... as in sticking one's hands through a fence or just reaching out to pet an unknown dog... or climbing into an enclosure or getting too close to a fence at a zoo to take a better picture... or owning and keeping a large wild, non-domesticated animal as a pet... and most especially breeding animals indiscriminately, without thought for temperament or discretion, or other important characteristics, and not following through in utilizing a decent breeding program aimed at maintaining all these important things.

Common sense should tell us to maintain a safe distance, or to ask an owner if it's okay before assuming it's fine to reach out and touch a dog or other animal one does not know. Even docile looking livestock can be dangerous to a stranger or someone unfamiliar with the animals and their individual habits, temperaments, and personalities.

As top of the food chain, we have a certain responsibility to the other inhabitants of our planet, and for benefit of us and them, we should take the responsibility of stewardship seriously.


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Dave is spot on. Rich hunters are probably the main force behind conservation in Africa, without them the people driven into starvation by neocolonialism would have eaten the big game long since.

How about you shocked folks, would you kill an elephant if your village was starving to death?

Maybe switch some of your outrage to your investments with interests in Africa.


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A couple of other things to consider - the massive influx of Chinese into Africa has opened up a flood smuggling, everything from ivory to emeralds to precious rainforest lumber.

Elephants are being slaughtered at a rate not seen since the ivory trade was banned. The motive behind all the carnage, of course, is money. An African poacher can get $80 for a kilogram (2.2 pounds) of ivory. That’s $800 for the 10 kilograms of ivory carried by a typical elephant. That’s a lot of money in most African countries. But the big profit is made in Asia. Thai Customs recently evaluated smuggled ivory as being worth $1,800 per kilogram - $18,000 per elephant - wholesale. The “street value” retail price of 10 kilograms of carved ivory now runs about $60,000. In fact, the price of ivory is increasing so rapidly that some people apparently are buying it as an investment commodity.

The poachers are equipped with automatic weapons, communications, even air support. The last bastions of major concentrations of wild elephants (not in parks, reserves) were the rain forests of Cameroon and Congo, those have just about disappeared. The wild area where Southern Sudan, Central African Republic, eastern Chad and the Northern Congo meet - where the Lords Resistant Army operates - they too now in the ivory poaching business and the elephants are just about gone.

Then we can talk about rhino horn, which is worth $350,000 a kg. The poachers go right into the parks and kill them.

Point being that outside of these professionally managed, trophy hunting preserves, things are going downhill fast.


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So in fact it is the opposite of what it appears to be, people like this Bachmann are saving the big African game while the rest of us are doing nothing.


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Are they saving game for the sake of game or for the sake of hunting? The biggest problem with hunting in most of it's permutations is the disruption of the balance of powers and the family unites of the animals hunted.


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You see that disruption of powers and family units particularly with elephants and lions, but many of the other species that are hunted don't seem to have that kind of social structures - I can't think of any of the game animals that have something similar.

That doesn't mean it can't exist, its just that it either hasn't been studied, or the social structures are completely different.

Re social structure - as an aside, we used to live about 3 hours north of the Masai Mara, and would often take off and spend weekends there. We hit it once at the very start of the wildebeest migration, more hurried than usual because of a drought - Its impossible to convey the magnitude of it all. We parked the SUV in the road, at the bottom of a valley, we could see maybe two miles of horizon. Every 10 - 20 feet, headed towards us, was string after string of wildebeest cantering along - across the entire horizon. Tens of thousands of the things all headed that-a-way, all at once, cantering along, oblivious to anybody and anything in their way. Bonking into the car, they'd get up and go around. We watched this for hours.


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Quite an experience, Dave. Imagine when one could see something like that on the great american plains, buffaloes.


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people like lily aren't interested in facts, they just sput, like knee jerks do.
Ya know, it took 3 arrows into that elephant to put it down. 1 to the left side of the heart, 1 to the left side of the heart, and the final was a head on shot to the heart. All arrows were totally into the animal. That last shot must have been a scary ordeal at less than 40 feet!
I used to shoot crows, I quit when I discovered that they were so intelligent. Now when they become a problem I shoot only the scout crow. When he/she is killed the others don't com back around for 3-4 years.


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"Are they saving game for the sake of game or for the sake of hunting?"

I don't see the difference. Game animals are hunted animals.


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FF...If that's the criteria I would venture a guess that all the animals you live to and love to kill are more intelligent than you

I wish the lion would have ripped her face off.


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Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 2:22

"The hunt I would pay to see is let this b!tch loose in an enclosed area with free running lions. Would love to see them rip that smirk off her ugly face!"

Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 17:22

"FF...If that's the criteria I would venture a guess that all the animals you live to and love to kill are more intelligent than you
I wish the lion would have ripped her face off."

Hm.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

And the purpose of you repeating what I clearly said is what, Elvis? To inflame? You're such a little trouble maker, aren't you?


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Oh, don't get me started on this stuff.

I'm so glad that they are not even considering euthanizing that male lion that killed the female.

I am still outraged - cannot get over it - that they killed the tiger those kids were shooting at with sling shots. Those kids should have gone to jail. Wish the tiger had killed them.


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A lot of hate there lily! A lot.
Do you feel some sense of empowerment coming on message boards and spewing that hate, ya know, kinda therapeutic? Im sorry for you actually, it must be painful. I really don't think the therapy is working tho, looking back your hate runs deep?

By the way, I don't love to kill anything, if you were referring to me? Its actually easier to kill another human than any animal.


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My problem, FF, is I love too much. My love for animals is so deep that I find this act so despicable that I could cry. I am NOT alone. There are 100 of thousands signatures on petitions against this senseless killing of this gorgeous animal to fuel some idiot's ego. I wish the worst kind of karma for this person . I won't even call her a woman, because I don't want to be in the same gender . Women are nurturers.

And I don't buy the fact you don't like to kill anything. Why do you then? Why did you shoot crows? I had a pet crow once. This bird was so incredibly smart. Was it a thrill to watch it drop from the sky? If I remember correctly, you used to kill your neighbor's cats. Still doing that?


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She's a liberal lily, she voted for Obama. Now, all is forgiven right?


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Weird thread.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

There are many variables to consider within this issue... legalities and permitting of hunting, animal populations, health of the animals, availability of food source for those animals, use of the animals, local culture and traditions, etc...

To poach and take one or two parts for illegal sale while leaving the rest of an animal to rot would be considered wrong, in my opinion. To hunt indiscriminately, as in not managing population and forcing extinction would be considered wrong, in my opinion.

Some animals have been hunted to the point of near extinction, especially in areas where government corruption is not unusual, and there are not enough park service agents or rangers available to police the large reserves. These are sometimes tough issues in poverty stricken countries.

But most safari type hunting is highly regulated, guided, with expensive permits required. The money goes toward managing the populations of game within the reserves so certain herds and populations can be maintained, or rebuilt.

It's mostly poaching that we read about or the illegal import/export of certain animal parts. Though some people don't understand any hunting, regardless the circumstances.

There are even those persons who don't understand that the meat they buy at the supermarket was once on the hoof, live... they don't understand that it wasn't "manufactured" in the back, behind the meat counter. These persons are so far removed from their own food source that they have no idea of the origins of what they're consuming and how it was grown or produced.

I will even modify my original statements to include that legal trophy hunting is okay IF the meat and other unwanted parts of the animal carcass are donated to charity, helping to feed struggling families.



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I shot crows as a kid hunting with migrant potato pickers, they ate them. Then I hunted them bexause they aren't easy game. I became aware of their societal structure and quit hunting them. I do shoot one now and then so the others of the tribe will stay away. They are very hard on the crops, destroying many, many seedlings.
Yep, I have shpot a couple cats. They were over running the area. The ones I shot were whizzing on our porch and stored fire wood. ever small THAT when ya bring it in to the wood box nest to the stove! I like cats, I was a catr breeder, Persians, with my wife for years. I have barn cats(3) and they follow me all over the [place. The wife is jealous of me cause her 2 Persians seem to like me more than her. I am an animal lover and am a very good husbandman, people actually come to me for advice on several species. Im not bragging, its just what Ive done well forever.
Killing is just a part of living. I don't get high on it, I do believe some people do enjoy the kill more than the hunt? I don't consider them top sporting individuals.

Lily can be as liberal as she wants to be, doesn't bother me one iota. I do think its kinda sad, how she seems tormented by something enuff to say some of the things she says, that's all. Ive never felt that kind of hate for anything, not even those guys who were shooting at me.


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Don't let it get you ff...let a liberal be accused of animal abuse and she is just as quiet as a mouse.


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"Don't let it get you ff...let a liberal be accused of animal abuse and she is just as quiet as a mouse."

That horse has been beaten to death; let's not go there.

It was those 2 visceral posts concerning violence against humans that disturbed me also. It is what it is.

_________

I think jodi & david summed the subject up well.


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FF, crow is a wonderful meat... moist and all dark meat, as in dark meat on a chicken. So, don't ever mind "eating crow"! :-)

I also believe there's an actual season on crow, now... though, one used to be able to shoot them at any time because there were so many and they were such a nuisance. I do believe that has changed... at least in IL.

I can't even imagine what America looked like before its natural wild herds and abundance of animals and prairie and forest were overtaken and just about destroyed by humankind and his push across this continent, committing genocide of indigenous peoples and native species along the way. It must have really been something special... though, special hardly seems apropos. Extraordinary, unparalleled, exceptional... majestic, captivating... enough to make one stop dead in his or her tracks, jaw slack, just staring as each new vista unfolded... I can hardly imagine it!

But I can see some of it on a much smaller scale... there is a local farm that keeps a small herd of buffalo. They are really something! The calves are so adorable... and the adults are huge and so powerful looking!

And at night, we are privileged to get a view of a pair of the largest owls I've ever seen, and hear them call to each other and to their young. They are very large, mostly brown in color... and when they perch on the fence or in the oak outside our window, I swear they stand at least 2 1/2 - 3 feet tall!

Then, we get to see the pair of Harris Hawks that live in the woods across the road, and watch them teach their young to hunt... and we recently got to see a cougar as it passed through our pasture, down a game trail that runs through the property...

And of course, there are tons of deer, raccoon, coyote, red and gray fox, opossum, skunk, groundhog, rabbit, squirrel, muskrat and beaver, giant snapping turtles, and oddly enough, long nosed gar and alligator snapping turtles that aren't supposed to live this far north. There are huge bull snakes that emulate rattlers, though they're fairly harmless... pheasant, wild turkey, turkey buzzards, dove, pigeon, red tailed hawks, chicken hawks, screech owls, barn owls, and all manner of song birds and beautiful finches, orioles, and hummingbirds... and the seasonal nesting of Canadian geese, and the different ducks.

Even the moles found in the gardens grow huge, and there are shrew, mink, weasel, field rats and mice... and insects galore! I like to hear the rush of water in the creek, see the little crawdads and minnows in the shallow pools of calmer water... hear the bullfrogs in the slough.

And that's just a partial list of the fauna I am privileged to view and hear, and watch... the flora is diverse, also... and I actually got to try the fruit of the native paw paw this autumn! Delicious!

And that doesn't even include the domestic animals I get to interact with... the horses, goats, dogs, cats... or the feral animals that roam the countryside, like the coydog packs, other feral canines and felines... or the hybrid plant materials I get to work with!

I couldn't imagine living in a jungle carved out of steel and concrete, crowded with humans and lit artificially... a constant noise of civilization and industrialization humming in the background... a layer of man made haze sometimes eliminating the stars at night, blocking the Milky Way from view.

Some people like city life and the conveniences and the busy crush and rush of life... but it's not for me. I enjoy hearing the tree frogs sing at night, the crickets call to locate mates, and the owls talking to one another. I like looking up and clearly picking out the Big Dipper, Orion, the swath of sparkle that is the Milky Way. I want to be able to hear the coyotes and coydogs, our dogs if they alert... and I want to watch the bats come out at dusk to chase and consume mosquitoes and other flying night insects.

I much prefer the slower pace, watching grass grow... breathing fresh air with the scent of curing hay and roses... being alone with my thoughts...

What a tangent... but a nice one, I think.

Discussing big game hunting isn't that much different than discussing what has become an entire industry devoted to exploiting the breeding and sale and feeding and medicating of those animals we call our beloved pets... and how dishonorable and unscrupulous it has become... and the attitudes born of propaganda and misinformation which swirl in and around it all, much like a fog... it's misty fingers playing upon emotions and turning selflessness unknowingly into selfishness.

If humankind can manage the populations of those animals we hunt, whether as sustenance or for the skill of it... then surely, we should have no trouble properly and responsibly managing the animals we domesticated as our companions and helpers... but, as we can too easily see, this is not the case. Why?



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"Extraordinary, unparalleled, exceptional... majestic, captivating... enough to make one stop dead in his or her tracks, jaw slack, just staring as each new vista unfolded... I can hardly imagine it!"

You don't have to; get out there. Our "extraordinary, unparalleled, exceptional... majestic, captivating" landscapes draw visitors from all over the world. It used to be better; now it's accessible. ;-)


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Just go to Alaska--plenty of jaw dropping frontier.


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Demi, if you've seen "The Gray" you'll never go there!


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That wildebeest migration runs around 2 million animals, plus or minus depending on the success of the calving season. - some 80 % drop their calves during a 10 day period. Lots of interesting evolutionary things to think about. Anyway, picture this, cantering north in some huge cloud of dust, hour after hour after hour.


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Lily, you went way overboard, imo. Such hateful words don't help you make your point or support your cause. The hateful words are the only thing remembered, not the point behind them.


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So the lion killer voted for Obama? Well, then please disregard everything I said. SARCASM!!! MrsK that was probably the most inane comment ever on HT. I don't care if this b!tch is Obama's sister, I stand by every word I said.

As an animal rescuer and advocate for years, I sign and support every animal rights legislation passed and I signed all the petitions against this person

My wish is since the hunt thrills her so much, let her loose in lion country without any weapon, no gun, no bow and arrow, and let her really feel the thrill of the hunt. What's fair is fair. I'm sure the pride would have a tasty dinner. But maybe not, she looks kinda stringy.

Sorry my words offend , mylab. Animal rights is my main passion in life.


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"Demi, if you've seen "The Gray" you'll never go there!"

I know that was a joke, but that movie is the most unrealistic, anti-wolf tripe that I have ever watched.


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Yeah right lily...I've seen your passion at work on this forum. You need a new audience.


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"I know that was a joke, but that movie is the most unrealistic, anti-wolf tripe that I have ever watched."

"Cry Wolf" was a better depiction of wolf behavior, I know. I'm talking about the scare factor. I'm pretty sure most St. Bernards are not like Cujo, either.


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Agreed Mrskjun.

But to be perfectly fair, Lily gets admonished for using the B word, while on the 'Hawaii' thread, someone else proposes sodomizing a man to get even for his smashing of a shopping cart. Now that's offensive, yet not a peep.


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"But to be perfectly fair, Lily gets admonished for using the B word..."

That wasn't it, hostafrenzy. As I posted at 12:53:

"It was those 2 visceral posts concerning violence against humans that disturbed me."

I missed the sodomy remark you mention: "...on the 'Hawaii' thread, someone else proposes sodomizing a man to get even for his smashing of a shopping cart."


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I lived in Alaska for almost 7 years. Without a doubt, it was our favorite place out go all the places we were stationed. Beautiful place and some of the best people I've had the pleasure to know.


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Admonishment at 16:58 Elvis and you'll have to reread the Hawaii thread.


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I don't think your words offend lily, as much as they create cause for concern. You need help, seek it out. You must have had some real trauma sometime in your life, your words just aren't normal! Do you really mean those horrible things, or do you just lash out because the internet is so impersonal and it makes you feel safe?

Ive gotta do some big game hunting tonite, it seems a coon has designs on my pigeons. From the size of its tracks it must go 14- 16 pounds. If I get him, ought to fetch around 20 bucks for the hide, enuff for a bag of pigeon feed.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

FF, didn't you say you have go-to-ground terriers? Or am I mistaken? They work nicely above ground, too. 14-16 pounds is a little raccoon. It would barely be a workout for them.

One night, back in the day, two of our little working dogs tag teamed a 30-35 pound coon that had the misfortune to drop from a tree onto the roof outside my sons' bedroom window. They did a wonderful job working together. The boys didn't even wake up.

Alaska might have been nice back in the day... but everyone and his yuppie brother is heading toward "the last frontier", and I'd just as soon stick around an area where the winters aren't quite so harsh, the summers aren't quite so short, and any needed supplies weren't twice the price due to logistics and necessary shipping methodology. Alaska? No, thanks...

if anyone took "sodomizing" away from the post in the Hawaii thread as the intended meaning, they should study more closely things like context, reading comprehension, and sarcasm... just to name a few things.

I wrote the post in question, and that's not anywhere near where my mind or meaning was when I wrote it. Perhaps a re-reading is in order.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

•Posted by hostafrenzy none (My Page) on Thu, Nov 21, 13 at 18:34

"Admonishment at 16:58 Elvis and you'll have to reread the Hawaii thread."

Re lily: Yeah, I know. I figured it was the whole violence thing; the two I mentioned and then the tirade against ff.

RE Hawaii: Reading jodi's post just now, I'll see what she says about that before I comment, that's for sure.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Jodi, the yuppies don't stick around for long because of the reasons you aren't interested in going to Alaska - cold winters and short summers. However, there are many hippies that time forgot. My doctor had long hair and wore jeans, flannel shirts and birkenstocks in the office. It is a pretty laid back place.

Where we lived (an island that was only accessible by plane or boat) the winters were relatively mild. I suspect that your winters are more harsh than ours typically were. Summers were short but lacked the heat and humidity of many places in the lower 48. We grew great veggies due to the many hours of sunlight.

People don't go to Alaska for the weather. They go for the lifestyle. I've never lived in a community that was as active as the place we lived in Alaska. There was a small library that was had more patrons on a daily basis than the libraries here in a much larger city. There was an active community orchestra and theater group. People were generally active no matter what the weather was doing. Rain and snow didn't stop people from going for a hike. You just learn to dress for it. There are many people who don't buy meat. Between the fishing and hunting, the only thing we ever bought was some chicken occasionally. There is nothing better than king crab that you pulled out of your crab pot a few hours before. The stuff you buy in the stores in the lower 48 just doesn't compare. Halibut, salmon and venison stuffed our freezer. Our original tour was for 2 years. We stayed for right at 7 and spent the rest of DH's military career trying to get back. Strangely enough, the other place DH was stationed that we fell in love with was New York City.


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jhug - you might enjoy the book at the link about small town life in Alaska -

"If You Lived Here I'd Know Your Name" by Heather Lende

which I received as a gift and very much enjoyed.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to amazon


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I used to have a couple terriers Jodi. I used them mostly around the barn and going to ground for woodchucks. I had 1 treeing until I had it go to ground, never wanted to tree again; I was warned! I loved those little buggers. Out hounds were for coon or fox. Man, a 35 lb coon is one big coon! I have seen a 505pounder but it was a house pet which was either eating or sleeping anytime I ever saw it. It was freekin HUGE.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

I imagine a 505 pounder would be "freekin" huge, even if it was a house pet.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Posted by elvis 4 (My Page) on
Thu, Nov 21, 13 at 14:14

Demi, if you've seen "The Gray" you'll never go there!

*

I will have to look it up, but I don't know what "The Gray" is.

I have been to Alaska three times, different locales.
I love it.

None of them on a cruise (ferries but no cruise)


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Movie; Liam Neesen. Very good but suspenseful and scary.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Movie; Liam "Neeson". Horrible but ridiculous at the same time.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Many years ago I had a pet raccoon named Rascal. He was rescued as a young orphan and lived with us for a few years. He rode in the car with me sitting on my head rest, . One day as I was walking down the road to the nearby lake for him to play, a car screeched to a halt and a guy yelled,"lady ,there's a raccoon after you!!" He followed me everywhere, always two steps behind me. He loved to play on the kids swing set and would go down the sliding board. A sight I'll ever forget , one moonlit night I was tucking my daughter in and looked out the window. It was a warm summer night and Rascal was sitting on top of the sliding board just looking around.

The crazy thing was he went to my five year old's kindergarten show and tell. Can't imagine that happening today. He was loose and ran all over the room and then sat on teacher's desk and played with her paper clips. One of the sweetest most gentle pets I ever had. Kids hauled him around, and daughter put him in her doll buggy and drove him all over.We bought him a snow cone every day when the truck came by.

Four decades later, and they still talk about him. As a result, they and their two kids are huge animal people like me.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

David, thank you. I'm always looking for books to read.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Sounds absolutely wonderful jlhug. I'm also going to check out David's book recommendation.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Jlhug, I can fully appreciate the kind of people that Alaska is really comprised of underneath its more recent popularity boon... and I know I would love a lot of things about the state... but I think the trade off list might contain too many items in the "it's just not worth it now as opposed to 30 years ago" list!

At one time, eons ago, my husband had wanted to take off toward Alaska, stopping in Colorado on the way through to set up a huge manufacturing plant for a guy he knew... which would have earned him a nice bankroll to keep for a snowy day, as opposed to a rainy day! But his ex, which would have been his wife at the time, wouldn't budge from the Midwest, and did not want anything to do with either opportunity.

Me, I would have jumped at both opportunities... but I am a different kind of person. 30 years ago I was in different physical shape, and I could have gotten used to the changes. Today, I couldn't do what it would take to survive in the type of environment we'd be talking about.

We wouldn't be talking about southern Alaska, around the islands or the very popular Matanuska-Susitna Valley area.... we'd be talking a lot farther north. And I just don't think I have what it would take to survive the temperatures or the amount of snow and ice. I've never been much of a "winter person", preferring spring and summer over autumn and winter.

Besides... there are a lot of other places people haven't settled and overpopulated or over popularized yet that aren't quite so far north, where the winters aren't quite so extreme. Alaska is beautiful, but there are easier places to survive off the grid, so to speak.

FF, maybe it was the composition of the particular terriers my husband bred... but they did so much more than your average go-to-ground breeds. He was never happy with the idea of having to "mine" his dogs while hunting, and some of the other characteristics of the more well known breeds bothered him, so he worked on putting together a "better" hunting terrier of small stature. He wanted to combine the better of breeds like the Jack Russel, the Rat Terrier, and other breeds... and without getting into any specifics, the American Tunnel Terrier was born.

You won't find a lot of information on this breed, with the exception of a general standard, some pictures and stories... and a few pros and cons... the pros given by people who have owned and worked these special little dogs, and the cons the result of talk by a few miffed breeders who couldn't pry the recipe out of my husband, and failed at recreating it, themselves... or people who simply don't have a clue about go-to-ground terriers, or anything outside of "AKC thinking". In the world of canines, if you haven't made an enemy or two, or pissed off someone at some point, you haven't stood for anything worthwhile.

We were just as surprised about the size of that raccoon as you are! But it was big! Who thought two little terriers could bring down something that large, and do the job without incurring any major injury to themselves?! But there it was... the body was on the roof that next morning. The boys came running downstairs yelling, "Dad! Dad! You gotta come see what Sledge and Wiggie got last night!" I'll never forget it!

Lily, a raccoon can make a wonderful pet... and rescuing an orphaned youngster is a noble undertaking. I'm glad you had such a wonderful experience. :-)

Though, I wouldn't recommend that anyone go out and specifically look for one for that purpose. It is still a wild animal, which means it's instincts will override any solid idea that you can domesticate one. Once they reach sexual maturity, they can become unpredictable and dangerous pets to keep.

My kids had one for a time... an orphaned baby, though I can't recall how we came by it. Someone found it and brought it to us, I think. It was a comical little thing they called "Bandit", or something like that... it got into everything, and was hilarious to watch in it's curiosity! But as it got older and reached a more mature state, it became more unpredictable in it's behavior, and it was time to release it into the wild. The kids were sad about letting it go, but that's another of life's lessons we learn about respecting the creatures we share the planet with.

They kept putting food out for him for a while after that, hoping he would return... but eventually he stopped coming to nibble and went off to find a mate and live his life... as he should.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

That's exactly what we did Jodi. We loved this little guy so much, but we did eventually do as you did, released him to the wild. We just put him in a little out building we had and left him come and go as he wanted . We put food out and gradually he came less and less ,and then he was gone. I told the kids , he found a wife and got married. Hope that's what happened because people left traps around. He got caught in one a year before. So I'd walk around the area and throw every trap I saw in the lake. Such cruelty should be outlawed, as it is torture for innocent animals.

You're right Jodi. Wild animals should not be sought out to keep as pets. We lucked out because ours was gentle and sweet, reflective of the way he was treated by us, but once they reach sexual maturity, wild animals belong in the wild unless they can't survive there. Then they should live in a preserve or wildlife sanctuary. Each has it's own special personality


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RE: Big Game Backlash

A word of caution re raccoons. They have a very high rate of infection with Baylisascaris procyonis as well as other nasties that can be transmitted to humans via direct contact with their feces, dust from their feces, etc.

As well as being pretty nasty predators on chickens, rabbits, ducks, geese, and domestic pidgins.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Big Game Backlash

I'm quite aware of this, David, and would not have one as a pet today. I realize all wild animals can transmit disease. I was very lucky back then, because my raccoon never saw a vet,and I had a dog and cat then as well. He never even snapped at my little kids when they rough housed him playing on the swing set. He was totally sweet and docile and more gentle than a cat can be when played with.

That said, I would not do it again. I stick to raising orphan birds and squirrels, then releasing them.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

David's right... there are certain nasties out there we have to be careful of...

"I told the kids , he found a wife and got married."

How sweet... what a cute way to put it to little kids. :-)


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Jodi, one didn't have to go far out of town to be completely off the grid and have acres between one's house and the closest neighbor. About 20 miles out of town would do it. As I said, winters are worse in many parts of the US. You don't have to go into the interior of Alaska for the quasi isolation you are seeking. About 10 miles from town, there was a community that was on the grid but lot sizes were typically around 1 to 5 acres.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

505 pounds, LOL. 55 pounds is what he weighed.

I know lots of people who've had pet coons, mostly coon hunters. We caught a albino once, white with red eyes. The mask and rings were peach. When he died my buddy had him stuffed and he has resided for the last 35 years in his den beside his stuffed Doberman.
Coon are always wild no matter how long they have lived in captivity. I know a few who were tore up by their pet coons.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Raccoons will also prey on domestic cats. They will work as a group and literally tear them apart-very unpleasant.

As for the impact of hunting on animal populations. First of all we know practically nothing about the social life of animals. We know that taking out the dominant male in an Elk herd leads to a sort of anarchy with reduced breeding success. In the past wild life biologist thought all big cats except lions lead solitary lives but that hasn't proven to be true. We constantly disrupt their lives and have no idea what we are doing. Our impact is so much greater than we understand.

It is like this-if you take a song bird baby from its nest just as it hatches it will never sing the proper songs it needs in order to make contact with its own kind-you keep the shell of the bird but it loses it family identity. Animals have only a contact shared history. When you take out an individual you take away what its knows and it's place in that group. Even animals that seem to be solitary share their world with their own kind in an organized way. You fool yourself when you think game preserves and zoos are preserving animal species.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Oh, ff. Can't believe you shot any cats.

I don't think I would have survived the last year without my cats.


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Actually, we know a heck of a lot about game animals. I could cite a list a mile long about studies done just by the PA game commission. My sion works for them so I get some inside info.. But its all available to the public as well.
Racoons ganging up to kill cats!!?? Come now! Maybe ya mean coyotes? I ve hunted and studied coon for 50 years so I reckon I know a thing or two about em,. They do NOT eat cats!!lol

, you need to find a new source!! I mean, Maybe your just tryin to pull someones leg?

What are ya gonna do. The lady up the road just lets cats go wild, breeding all the time, I mean its terrible, or it was. its all better now. All the people on the road were kinda ticked. I like cats actually, but, ya gotta do hard things sometimes. I can be hard when the need arises. I don't make a habit of it


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RE: Big Game Backlash

ff, you ever hear of TNR?


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RE: Big Game Backlash

"Jodi, one didn't have to go far out of town to be completely off the grid and have acres between one's house and the closest neighbor."

I pretty much have that already, Jlhug, which is why it really doesn't make much sense to pick up and move so far.

1-5 acre parcels are still fairly small... I'm not sure I'd want anything that tight up against the next neighbor. I really prefer having more of a farmette or farm type space of 5 acres or way more... preferably wooded which helps with isolation. I'd much rather spend the majority of purchase funds on land than on home structure.

FF, that's exactly so... animal husbandry of domestic animals, and stewardship of those in the wild often does call for some very hard choices to be made and carried out... that's simply the way it is. And it's the right, responsible thing to do in order to manage those populations.

I would agree that we do, indeed, know a heck of a lot about the animals we share this planet with... with the exception of the very deep ocean depths that we've only begun to explore, and some areas of jungle and forest that until recently have only been inhabited by indigenous peoples. But don't worry... Western civilization is very busy eliminating those jungles and forests and indigenous peoples in order to plunder the minerals and other resources that lie underneath.

And cats, whether domestic or feral have a very limited predator source, and those usually don't exist in an urban environment. I've never heard of raccoons ganging up on cats. Though, coons will come and steal cat feed if left where they can get to it.

Domestic/feral cats left to breed unchecked are pretty much responsible for the elimination of many song birds in many areas... the fault of which lies solely on irresponsible pet owners.

I'm not sure I'd want to perform taxidermy on a deceased pet, and keep that pet as a reminder, though... that's a little too morbid for me, FF. Once my dogs pass on, I prefer burial or cremation by way of pyre. However, an albino coon with peach areas does sound very interesting. I've seen albino skunks, but not an albino raccoon as of yet... not in person. My husband has.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

I didn't make a video-sorry about that. In this particular case the cat was rescued and survived. In the Seattle area people are told to not feed and encourage raccoons because they prey on cats. Having seen it I believe it.

Practically everything we think we know about animals is colored by our prejudices. You don't learn about what you don't look for.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

The raccoons around here will kill a dog - from what I can tell, the dog corners the raccoon, the raccoon gets ahold of the dogs' chest and won't let go. I can see them ganging up on a cat.

Luckily, the raccoons around here haven't learned how to climb up the drain spouts and get into attics. Yet.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

A big coon is 20 pounds or so. I reckon we've taken several hundreds over the years and 1 coon can give even 3 dogs quite a fight, for a few minutes at most. A very real danger tho is if a dogs and coon get into a mix up in deep water, once in a great while the coon will get on the dogs head and the dog can drown. There are lots of tales floating around, most hunters get a chuck;le out of them!
TNR? total nutrient requirement? I I don't know, what your designation?


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RE: Big Game Backlash

I think this thing about animals reveals how much our emotional take on life is the overriding determinant of our attitude.

On the one hand, we have absolutely no qualms about killing a roach, but we get all crazy about a cat or a lion or a....

We can kill thousands and thousands of innocent Iraqis with barely a blink, but God help us if we kill a lion and give the meat to the local villagers.

Think of the big lion as a big cockroach and appreciate that, if you kill a big lion, it's one life. That amount of meat might save a hundred lives of the chicken.

Hay


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Trap , neuter and release. Why would one do that when it's so much more fun killing a cat?


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RE: Big Game Backlash

One large raccoon can be a formidable foe for a house cat, or one that's been de-clawed... or a dog of smaller stature that's not bred to take on game... but I've never seen a large breed dog have a problem taking on a raccoon.

But, raccoons are not pack type animals. They do not attack in groups. We call them families of raccoons, not packs of raccoons... they do not exhibit a pack mentality.

You'd be very surprised what a raccoon can climb, and the heights they'll scale to get where they want to be.

It is my belief that someone saw something, but it's not what they think they saw. Raccoons do not "prey" on cats. What most likely happened is that the cat surprised a raccoon, and a fight ensued... or the raccoon came to steal the cat's food, and the same thing happened. But raccoons are not known to prey upon cats. Never heard of it, never saw it, never met anyone who said they saw it or heard of it, and you couldn't make me believe it.

That's just not the modus operandi of the raccoon.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

"It is my belief that someone saw something, but it's not what they think they saw. Raccoons do not "prey" on cats. What most likely happened is that the cat surprised a raccoon, and a fight ensued... or the raccoon came to steal the cat's food, and the same thing happened. But raccoons are not known to prey upon cats. Never heard of it, never saw it, never met anyone who said they saw it or heard of it, and you couldn't make me believe it."

I wonder where the event occurred; it could have been some other animal. Fishers take cats.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Speaking of raccoons, I have three chickens living free in the woods. Living on borrowed time?


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RE: Big Game Backlash

If you've got fishers, fox, coyotes or wolves, they are. Aren't we all.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Speaking of big game; my gr daughter is bear hunting this week. She got her turkey and a deer and now wants a bear. She hunts often and eats what they harvest.

Yotes are quite the problem in some areas around here. Its getting harder to hunt them with dogs as the out of towners move in and wont let their properties be hunted. Coyotes run miles, sometimes days and cover a lot of territory.Then raise a stink when their pets are 'all ate up' by the coyotes!

Friend got a fisher a couple months ago, it was killing his ducks and trying to get into his rabbitry. Too bad he couldn't have waited till the fur primed out, they are fetching 50 bucks for a good hide. Fur prices are up, Chinese are taking most furs.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Yes; fisher fur is beautiful. They are vicious creatures best left alone. Too bad our domestic animals don't get that.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Too bad we don't do a better job of securing our domestic animals so they don't run into these problems... might be a better way of putting it.

There are several types of predator I wouldn't really want to tangle with unless I were prepared, and those include but aren't limited to some of the smaller, some fur bearing at decent price... animals like fishers, martens, wolverines, weasels, mink... and by prepared, I mean at least having some kind of weapon in hand with which to keep them from harming poultry or rabbits, or other small domestic, kept animals. Some reside in the area, and some don't.

Fur prices do seem to have risen, FF... might be worthwhile to dig out the traps and run a line during season.

Bear is something I haven't hunted as yet, and I have no real desire to. I might if the opportunity presented itself, but there aren't many bear in my neck of the woods! Wild boar is a nice score in a hunt, though... there's no pork quite as rich or flavorful.

Speaking of game, did anyone catch the fights last night, broadcast from Macau? Pacquiao schooled Rios in a 12 rounder, exacting a pound or two for the assault on Freddie Roach earlier. While it did go to scorecards without a KO, Manny's crisp, clean shots and excellent footwork made Rios look like a scene from a Rocky movie, and Rios will be one hurting guy today, I guarantee! Is Manny ready to take on Mayweather? I don't know... but I do know that the illustrious career of Manny Pacquiao is not over just yet!

And that does it for this morning's edition of sports... tune in later for what is sure to be an interesting continuation of animal news...


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RE: Big Game Backlash

So here is the scenario with the Raccoons-4 raccoons(Procyon lotor) cornered the cat(adult Tom, Felis silvestris catus) and had it by its legs and were trying to tear the cat apart. The cat was screaming and trying to escape. We intervened and rescued the cat who had to go to the vet for stitches. Having, as I do, a degree in Biology and having first studied wild life Biology- though then switching to Botany-I do recognize a Raccoon when I see one.
As stated above-we are seriously ignorant about the lives of animals. Pretty much everything people think they know about Raccoons is probably wrong. They are not solitary, they do frequently live in groups-even the males(typically groups of 4 oddly enough), they form extended connections with other raccoons who are not necessarily family. They seldom 'wash' their food. They do hunt but not as often as they gather. There are a couple of documentaries about raccoons out there that are full of the more current information about them. We still know very little about their personal lives.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

They are not solitary, they do frequently live in groups-even the males(typically groups of 4 oddly enough)

I've seen that several times. Last week when we came home after dark, there were four very large ones climbing my field fence and headed over to the neighbors' orchard.

/yes, they do climb fences.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

...and trash cans, and hold the top up for their friend to trash dive.


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Glad you were able to save the cat patricae. We have a feral cat with two little kittens that I have been putting out food for and it looks like two large raccoons have been coming to check their bowls at night, even though we live in town. Now I'm worried about the little kittens. I think I'll start picking up the bowls at night.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

I came home to this one night.

He had come in by ripping the screen that was on an open window.

So there I am, up on a chair with the broom, trying to shoo the raccoon out the door. His instinct was to climb. You'd be amazed at his climbing abilities. He basically climbed up to the top of a door with nothing more than an inch of molding sticking out to grab on to.

Time goes by and one night I'm sitting here. Literally here and look out the window at the Mock Orange.

I think Rocky just wanted to see what all the lights were about.

I got tired of all the nonsense and trapped the two that were living under my house with a big Hav-A-Hart trap. Hauled them away in the back of my car. Seeing how he clawed at the mat the whole time with these incredibly strong claws, I'd hate to have to fight one.

Hay


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RE: Big Game Backlash

What's up with the clothesline?


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They do travel in groups and are very cunning and intelligent. They DO wash their food. My pet raccoon had a bowl of water beside his food dish and every bite of food he was given , he'd wash it. I think we gave him table scraps and cat and dog food. Washed it all. He was more gentle than some cats I've had. I once walked in the garage to see my five year old saying.."Bad boy, you aren't supposed to take apples out of the crate", and she took it away from him. He chuttered to her. He was raised with kindness from the age of six weeks and that's how he reciprocated. But when he reached sexual maturity, he gradually left the nest. I loved him and will never forget him.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Such a complicated subject, I am a nature lover and hate to kill even a spider, but suspect there are many nuances and contradictions involved with human/wildlife relationships. For example, personally I do not eat meat (occasionally poultry), don't know if I could kill an animal even if I were starving, and am quite happy to eat my rice and beans for the rest of my life (and probably healthier for it). But I respect people who hunt, skillfully and humanely, to provide food for themselves and their families. This seems much more natural to me than CAFOs!

I do worry there won't be much place left for wildlife on this planet, because of the growing masses of irrational and rapacious human animals.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

They travel or live in family units during certain seasons, usually in gender specific groups, or a mother and younglings, sometimes until the young are almost indistinguishable in size from mom. But that depends, too, on the food source made available to them, logistics, and climate, etc.

Here... this may clear it up...

"Social behavior:
Studies in the 1990s by the ethologists Stanley D. Gehrt and Ulf Hohmann indicated raccoons engage in gender-specific social behaviors and are not typically solitary, as was previously thought. Related females often live in a so-called "fission-fusion society", that is, they share a common area and occasionally meet at feeding or resting grounds. Unrelated males often form loose male social groups to maintain their position against foreign males during the mating season��"or against other potential invaders. Such a group does not usually consist of more than four individuals. Since some males show aggressive behavior towards unrelated kits, mothers will isolate themselves from other raccoons until their kits are big enough to defend themselves. With respect to these three different modes of life prevalent among raccoons, Hohmann called their social structure a "three class society". Samuel I. Zeveloff, professor of zoology at Weber State University and author of the book Raccoons: A Natural History, is more cautious in his interpretation and concludes at least the females are solitary most of the time and, according to Erik K. Fritzell's study in North Dakota in 1978, males in areas with low population densities are solitary as well.

The shape and size of a raccoon's home range varies depending on age, sex, and habitat, with adults claiming areas more than twice as large as juveniles. While the size of home ranges in the inhospitable habitat of North Dakota's prairies lay between 7 and 50 km2 (3 and 20 sq mi) for males and between 2 and 16 km2 (1 and 6 sq mi) for females, the average size in a marsh at Lake Erie was 0.5 km2 (0.19 sq mi). Irrespective of whether the home ranges of adjacent groups overlap, they are most likely not actively defended outside the mating season if food supplies are sufficient. Odor marks on prominent spots are assumed to establish home ranges and identify individuals. Urine and feces left at shared latrines may provide additional information about feeding grounds, since raccoons were observed to meet there later for collective eating, sleeping and playing.
Concerning the general behavior patterns of raccoons, Gehrt points out that "typically you'll find 10 to 15 percent that will do the opposite" of what is expected."

"Diet:

Though usually nocturnal, the raccoon is sometimes active in daylight to take advantage of available food sources. Its diet consists of about 40% invertebrates, 33% plant material and 27% vertebrates. Since its diet consists of such a variety of different foods, Zeveloff argues the raccoon "may well be one of the world's most omnivorous animals". While its diet in spring and early summer consists mostly of insects, worms, and other animals already available early in the year, it prefers fruits and nuts, such as acorns and walnuts, which emerge in late summer and autumn, and represent a rich calorie source for building up fat needed for winter. Contrary to popular belief, raccoons eat active or large prey, such as birds and mammals, only occasionally, since they prefer prey that is easier to catch, specifically fish, amphibians and bird eggs. When food is plentiful, raccoons can develop strong individual preferences for specific foods. In the northern parts of their range, raccoons go into a winter rest, reducing their activity drastically as long as a permanent snow cover makes searching for food impossible."

"Urban raccoons:

Due to its adaptability, the raccoon has been able to use urban areas as a habitat. The first sightings were recorded in a suburb of Cincinnati in the 1920s. Since the 1950s, raccoons have been present in metropolitan areas like Washington, DC, Chicago, and Toronto. Since the 1960s, Kassel has hosted Europe's first and densest population in a large urban area, with about 50 to 150 animals per square kilometer (130 to 390 animals per square mile), a figure comparable to those of urban habitats in North America. Home range sizes of urban raccoons are only 3 to 40 hectares (7.5 to 100 acres) for females and 8 to 80 hectares (20 to 200 acres) for males. In small towns and suburbs, many raccoons sleep in a nearby forest after foraging in the settlement area. Fruit and insects in gardens and leftovers in municipal waste are easily available food sources. Furthermore, a large number of additional sleeping areas exist in these areas, such as hollows in old garden trees, cottages, garages, abandoned houses, and attics. The percentage of urban raccoons sleeping in abandoned or occupied houses varies from 15% in Washington, DC (1991) to 43% in Kassel (2003)."

Here is a link that might be useful: Raccoon and Behaviors


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RE: Big Game Backlash

According to the article at the link, the "washing" behavior is most llikely not to be attributed to a desire for cleaner food. IMO, Humans tend to bestow human characteristics upon animals, i.e., "my cat loves to wear clothes," or "my dog can say mama," "my python loves to hug me," etc.

"Raccoon Food-washing Habits: Making Mealtime a Tactile Experience
In the previously mentioned study that first examined raccoon food-washing habits, the animals "washed" meat more often than plants, but didn't rinse off dirty earthworms [source: Burton and Burton]. Even if no water was available, the captive raccoons would move their forepaws in the same way they would if they were actually dousing the food item. To the researchers, this behavior indicated that the raccoons weren't intentionally cleaning their food before eating.

But that doesn't mean it's a useless gesture -- removing dirt from their meals is merely a beneficial by-product of the action. Initially, scientists conjectured that raccoons lacked saliva glands and needed to add moisture, making it easier for them to eat [source: Zeveloff]. Instead, study results indicate that the behavior enhances the tactile experience involved with eating.

As mentioned on the previous page, raccoons have highly dexterous forepaws that resemble hands. Raccoons actually have the same nerve grouping on the hairless parts of their forepaws as primates have, including humans, making them very sensitive to touch. Like primates, they have similar slowly adapting nerves in those hairless, or glabrous, patches [source: Rasmusson and Turnbull]. Slowly adapting nerves are responsive for both moving and stationary skin displacement, communicating to the brain, via the central nervous system, information about the weight, size, texture and temperature of whatever's come into contact with the forepaws. There are also nerves attached to underfur and longer guard hairs.

In a study examining the slowly adapting nerves in the forepaws of 136 raccoons, researchers found that wetting the skin increases the nerve responsiveness [source: Rasmusson and Turnbull]. Think about what happens when you look through a pair of sunglasses and then quickly take them off. When you remove them, your optical nerve responsiveness will likely increase because more light is flooding into your retinas to illuminate what you're looking at. Likewise, when raccoons perform their dunking ritual, the water on their paws could excite the nerves in their forepaws. That, in turn, gives them a more vivid tactile experience and provides precise information about what they're about to eat. This is a beneficial trait since the raccoon's vision isn't its keenest sense.

Like primates, raccoons employ a combination of sight and touch to reach out and grasp an object (unless, of course, they're reaching into murky water). However, raccoons often use both hands, rather than one, to grasp, and they exhibit little independent movement of their digits [source: Pubols, Pubols and Munger].

One interesting difference in tactile sense between raccoons and primates is the raccoon's lack of papillary ridges. The ridges are microstructures in our skin that help us detect friction and create our fingerprints. In the hairless areas of human skin, namely our palms and soles, the ridges are packed with Meissner corpuscles. These are individual living cells that serve as specialized mechanoreceptors, responding to sensations like pressure or tension. With all of these factors combined, a study observing raccoons' eating behavior concluded that while their dexterity is specialized, it isn't as much of an anomaly as the washing behavior implied at first blush [source: ­Pubols, Pubols and Munger].

From a public relations standpoint, that probably isn't such a good thing for the raccoon. Previously, the rabies-carrying, food-stealing animal had the distinction of at least washing its food. Now, it looks like those sticky fingers could use a thorough rinsing."

Here is a link that might be useful: rabies-carrying, food-stealing animal


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RE: Big Game Backlash

2 years ago there were 4 rabic coon about 2 miles up the road. All 3 were killed. the 1 attacked a home owner even chasing him into his house, then went after the neighbors large dog but was shot before contact. Don't shoot a suspected rabid animal in the head, use a body shot so as to not spread the brain material where the rabies seems to concentrate.

The Pittman/Robertson act provides about 300 million dollars to wildlife efforts annually, the money come from excise taxes on guns, ammo and other sporting goods. The record sales of bus & whammo has provided a real bonus to wildlife causes.
Never saw a penned coon wash food, they do sometimes roll it about in water, makes it easier to eat.
The white coon we caught actually treed on my leg when partner shook it out of the tree. That was nearly a fiasco as it knocked off my glasses and I was afraid of moving and crushing my glasses. id a never made it out of the dark woods w/o em. Weve also caught red coon and black coon.
The best bait for trapping is a marshmallow with a drop of vanilla on it. We used a 5 gallon bucket as a feeder filled with horse feed and hung from a limb in the woods. They paw out a batch and chow down. One live trap is a container with a small hole filled with bait. The coon reaches in and grabs a handful and will not let go so just waits there. Its kind of amazing, they seem so smart yet are really quite stupid. What they are is adaptable.

There are more deer, turkey, bear and elk in PA today than there has ever been. Good game management is the key.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Rabies-any body fluid is contaminated with rabies-never touch a dead raccoon with your bare hands. The brain tissue is used to test the animal for rabies, It must be fresh. We once had to kill one in Mississippi that was obviously very sick-the nit wit person I talked to with the state wanted me to cut its head off and put it in my freezer!!!! They were not actually interested in finding out that the animal was rabid so take your area's stats with a grain of salt.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Actually, that's why they wanted you to save the head... so they could retrieve it and take it in for rabies testing.

I would assume common sense would let anyone know that if you are not certain about what type of illness an animal you just killed has, you'd handle the corpse in a manner consistent with safety... you'd put on gloves to pick it up, and drop it into a trash bag, secure the bag, double it if it makes you feel better, and drop it into your freezer with a label on it.

If the proper authority asked me to save a deceased corpse for lab testing, I'd not have an issue with doing so. Of course, not everyone has access to extra freezer space, either, so that could be an issue. Distemper is another common ailment among feral or wild animals, and is often mistaken as rabies to those who are not aware of the differences.

I believe the saliva or other bodily fluid containing the rabies virus must enter our blood stream in order to harm us... but don't quote me on that... which is why people go to the ER after having been bit by a strange animal without record or proof of vaccination. That's also why they quarantine a dog that has bit a person, and does not have proof of being vaccinated.

FF, when we were kids on vacation in Florida with our parents, camping... we'd often make evening visits to the local ranger station to feed the little band of local raccoons that gathered in anticipation of the event. They seem to love hard boiled eggs and soda crackers, not to mention marshmallows and other treats.

They are highly curious, greedy little creatures, which is why it's difficult for them to let go of food items larger than the opening they need to extract them from. It's rather funny to watch them swish soda crackers in pans of water, then wonder where they went when they disintegrate. We were kids at the time... I feel differently about feeding wild animals as an adult.

I think it's wrong to feed wild animals, unless you intend to do so for the rest of your natural existence. You don't want them to become dependent upon humans for their food source, which often throws off natural migration, or movement through territory, can mess with population numbers or breeding patterns... and it can also lead to a nuisance amount of said animal claiming space in our territory.. (such as it is ours). They need to live independently of humans.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

There is no safe way for me, a citizen, to cut the head off a suspect raccoon. The actual fact that I have a background in biology and know better than most how to do such a thing is beside the point. She didn't know me from Adams house cat but she was pretty sure I was not going to cut the head off a raccoon and there by force them to acknowledge that they did have rabies in north Mississippi. Any body fluid from that animal was dangerous to anyone who made contact with it. Not only that, I am not putting a rabid animal in my freezer along with my food-that would be major stupid. This animal was exhibiting all the classic symptoms-it was in the blind staggers stage and drooling. We cleaned the patio with bleach. The proper way to deal with this is would be call the state police who would bag it and deliver it asap to the state lab. That is what I expected.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Patricia, I certainly wouldn't have complied with those "instructions," either. What did you do with the carcass, anyway?

In Wisconsin, the most frequent carriers are bats and skunks. All 4 cases in humans resulted from contact with bats. The website lists these guidelines:

Prevention Measures
Exposure to rabies may be minimized by the following measures:

•Eliminate stray dogs and cats and enforce leash laws.
•Vaccinate pet dogs, cats, ferrets, and livestock against rabies.
•Stay away from all wild animals, especially those acting abnormally.
•Teach your children not to approach any unfamiliar animals.
•Do not keep exotic or wild animals as pets, regardless of how young or cute they are.
•Exclude bats from living quarters by keeping screens in good repair and by closing any small openings that could allow them to enter.
•Persons traveling to developing countries in which rabies is highly prevalent, or persons who are at ongoing risk of possible rabies exposure (e.g., veterinarians, animal control officers) should ask their doctor about receiving the PRE-exposure rabies vaccinations.

The first human survivor of rabies, contracted from a bat during church services, is a Wisconsin girl. She was a victim of chance; messing with wild animals on purpose is just stupid.

Here is a link that might be useful: First Human Survivor w/o Vaccine


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RE: Big Game Backlash

"What's up with the clothesline?"

The twine that's holding up the roughly 3 feet by 4 feet piece of plywood?

About a hundred years or so ago, I threw this together to start a few flats of seeds in the Spring. It's a south facing window.

Being me, the slob, it's been there ever since and I use it now primarily as a dust catcher. It's a good place to throw stuff, too. Very versatile.

Over to the right of the second picture you can see a portion of the door and the inch wide piece of wood that goes around it, up and over the top. (It's not actually molding. Don't ask.) The raccoon, much like a very good rock climber, when he got into the house, managed to go up and perch on top of that door and "molding".

I had a fox give birth to a set of babies in a den in my field a while back. I kept a watch on them. They were cute. I was a bit surprised one day when I strolled down and saw the remains of a leg of what was certainly a small deer. I always thought that foxes would only go after small game.

Off to dance.

Hay


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Doesn't everyone have safety goggles and a machete handy? ;-)

I guess it really all depends upon logistics, and whether or not the area has enough personnel to run around picking up dead animals for delivery to the appropriate laboratory.

Actually... surgical gloves, safety goggles, and a sharp skinning knife should be enough to safely execute the task, I would think. One never need touch the carcass with one's actual person.

Without the evidence, the proper authorities are unable to test for disease and maintain accurate records, statistics, and it would remain an unknown if there were actual rabies virus present.

It's something I'd want to know, being that I live in an area containing lots of animals, of the domesticated, wild, and feral kinds.

I don't know... I don't think it would present a problem here... but then, I'm not very squeamish or fearful of the natural world around me. I suppose not everyone would be willing to autopsy at home. ;-)


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RE: Big Game Backlash

people who keep poultry string fishing line as in the photos above over their poultry yards to deter hawks. Not many hawks actually take large fowl chickens but they can do some damage to the bantams. I am gonna have a real hawk problem here with my race pigeons, but I know Ive got a few ticks up my sleeve.

I saw a hawk which was caught in the fish line weaving above a yard, it was pretty banged up, went to rehab and was released in fine condition. b There are way too many hawks these days, protection should be lifted.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Why, so you can shoot them?


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Don't underestimate the mice and rats those things eat - kind of like how they figured out that having nesting boxes in the fields for barn owls -

One trait that makes barn owls so useful for natural rodent control is their ability to hunt a wide variety of prey and switch their preference to the species of rodent common in the surrounding countryside. In the vineyards of California, they prey heavily on pocket gophers; in orchards and hayfields they take the voles that are usually the predominant rodent; in sugar cane fields they harvest cotton rats and roof rats; in rice fields they prey on rice rats; and around dairy, horse, and poultry farms they take house mice and Norwegian rats.

I've had a red tail hawk take up residence on a pole in my back yard over the winter. That thing nailed 6 - 12 mice a day. I wish he'd come back…..


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Lily, you are waaaayy to far in left field! Many timesw you just don't make sense, way too much hate. Id shoot em if I had to, my birds deserve protection.
Yeh, they are always flying over the hay fields. Only thing that gets more is BC the barn cat. That cat is hell on paws to the voles, I see her carry in 1-2-3 per day.

My son raises 85,000 pheasants per year, ya oughta see the hawks that hang around those fields! They do in +or- 15 per day.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Oh, dear. Fancifowl I'm picturing you as Elmer Fudd, out to get that wascally wabbit. Lily is of course Snow White with woodland creatures frolicking about her feet and birdies on her shoulder. What a picture ;-D


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RE: Big Game Backlash

The foxes and hawkses have cleaned out all the wabbits.

I don't really shoot many critters cept for woodchucks.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Hay, you once gave your opinion on marriage and your aversion to it, which I never had any problem with. Good for you that you for having the insight knowing you are happier without living with another woman in your home again -
I say this laughingly and teasingly: but what you told us here about that rope assembly?
I suspect most women would be better off not living with you either* LOL* it would drive me and all my female relatives and friends flat nuts to have that thing in their house. For *years*, its still there?
You do know that they make excellent lights for seed starting - cheap things, too. When you are buying your jeans/ trousers at Walmart, check out their shop lights and seed starting lights. I buy two shop lights and 1 seed starting light and use them over a bunch of flats, rotating them daily so they all get some of the better 'seed starting lighting'. I purchase new bulbs every year and use a couple of previous year's shop light bulbs in the old frames as an excellent and easy, *cheap* source of bottom heat.
Because we have a heater vent open in our garage, it never freezes in there and in March the ambient temp is perfect for starting seeds: the bottom heat and the seed starting lights luckily create the perfect environment to have pretty much at least 98% seed sprouting success as long as I stay away from those awful jiffy plugs seed starting things that give me a horrible germination percentage. I know my set up isnt supposed to be very good for starting seeds but it has always worked like a charm for me. No clothesline needed! ;)
Anyway, I did enjoy your explanation.
Except for a corner of the garage for my seeds from March thru mid May, the garage is all his for similar types of 'clothesline stuff' and one bedroom is all his for all his computers, computer parts, electronic stuff, hunting and camping stuff, guns, gun reloading equipment and our archery equipment. My bow, and arrows, leather arm strap etc is stored in a hard case so I dont worry about it's safety in that room.
That is, to me, an unorganized mess of chaos but he knows where everything is, its not a fire hazard and I keep the door closed when he isnt in it: so we both are content.
Over the years I must claim responsibility for excessively civilizing him as he no longer can tolerate his own messes in the garage and has recently been making noises about a big "dump run" over his 'computer+ everything else' room. I guess the organized chaos finally got to him.
Many years ago, he was just like you with your complete content with your 'strung clothesline' style of living. I guess to you, 'marriage organization' and a more genteel style of living ruined a good man?
;)
Just joshing you, Hay.

I have never had the opportunity of living in an area where wildlife roamed freely, although my mother did have the occasional problem with raccoons. My father died decades ago when I was in my early 20's - not long after their dream home was finally completed. She learned to cope on her own but we certainly did what we could for her - what she would allow for us to do for her.
DH set up a little easily managed system for her which involved building a garbage can enclosure with bungee cords attached at each end to prevent the opening of the lids and it worked like a charm for her - no more raccoons scaring the living daylights out of her when she went out some evenings to throw a bag of trash away. I felt so much better about it, her safety in living alone was always on our minds, we worried about it much more than she did.
The only wildlife in this neighborhood, besides birds and dogs allowed to roam and poop in my front yard are squirrels. Love the squirrels but know when they have been busy digging up and then burying tulip bulbs. Many a bulb has mysteriously sprouted smack in the middle of our lawn. It doesnt bother me - squirrels have gotta eat, too.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Jodik-to learn that an area that is supposed to not have rabies but does is definitely worth sending some. I called the health department. They did not want to know.

The woman I was talking too had no idea you could get rabies from anything but a bite. This is Mississippi we are talking here. In Washington if you get a bat in your house they want it if it dies. If you find a sick bat on your property they want that bat because they want to know how wide spread rabies is. Different States different approaches.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Thank you Elvis. If I was a cartoon figure, I'd pick Snow White.

FF, I know you try and push my buttons. One post you said you don't enjoy killing and would rather kill a person, and then you say you kill hawks and groundhogs. Pathetic. I had a hawk who killed my prize white koi years ago, and yet never would I have killed him in retaliation. We just netted the ponds.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

We just netted the ponds.

*

You are fortunate that you didn't have a big problem on your hands.

DH called me just before Christmas one morning to come help him--a red tailed hawk was caught in the netting surrounding our garden and that black mesh was all around his talons.

He held him and I had to get manicure scissors to cut him out, and I was quite nervous. I couldn't use the scissors with gloves so I did it barehanded. We got him out, but I can tell you that's something I do not want to do again.

If you still have the ponds netted I hope you can cut them without getting too close.

It's animal central here; there is a raccoon that makes the rounds by make back doors sniffing every night and sometimes peers back at me if I knock on the door to get his attention. A heron I've named Rodger is on my dock every morning for hours, rain or shine, since last spring. He's there now in the fog and cold.

I try not to interfere too much except to sometimes throw out bird seed or bread crumbs in the winter months. My former neighbor was always feeding the ducks, corn to the coons and trying to get the foxes to come to her and they had no fear. Now that she's gone they seem to be acting more like animals than pets, or they've left the area.

My flying squirrels came back after two years, but I think I've solved that problem again. After having people check my roof points several times and putting out have a heart traps, I would still have flying squirrels in the attic when it got cold. They never did damage but sound like buffalo, literally, for such small cute animals.

Two years ago I picked up a large container of red pepper flakes (not the powder, I didn't want to hurt them more than necessary) and sprinkled it where I knew they were playing in the insulation. GONE, after trying just about everything.

We have had temps in the 20s so they came back this weekend, and when I went into the attic after I heard them I got very quiet and heard a tiny "squeak" from behind the insulation. So I sprinkled what was left of the red pepper and intend to get a fresh bottle of it and sock it to them next week.
Since then I literally have not heard another squeak from them.

It beats the coyote urine and expensive sonic devices I was considering.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

"Hay, you once gave your opinion on marriage and your aversion to it, which I never had any problem with. Good for you that you for having the insight knowing you are happier without living with another woman in your home again -
I say this laughingly and teasingly: but what you told us here about that rope assembly?
I suspect most women would be better off not living with you either* LOL* it would drive me and all my female relatives and friends flat nuts to have that thing in their house. For *years*, its still there?
You do know that they make excellent lights for seed starting - cheap things, too. When you are buying your jeans/ trousers at Walmart, check out their shop lights and seed starting lights. I buy two shop lights and 1 seed starting light and use them over a bunch of flats, rotating them daily so they all get some of the better 'seed starting lighting'. I purchase new bulbs every year and use a couple of previous year's shop light bulbs in the old frames as an excellent and easy, *cheap* source of bottom heat. "

Guilty on all counts.

Confessions:

I don't allow any visitors to my house. Once, just after my divorce a friend and his wife came by my house. They walked in. I could see the shock in his eyes and the wife's first words were, "Is this the reason?" I don't allow any visitors to my house.

Which character do you think I am of the Odd Couple?

I think of my being a bit of a recluse as my gift to womankind.

"You do know that they make excellent lights for seed starting - cheap things, too."

Tell me about it. I don't do things half way. If I get into something I go for the gold. In the final years of my marriage, I discovered seed starting. Lucky for me, unlucky for my wife, we had an entire south facing wall of glass, almost ceiling to floor. Can you imagine? No, you can't; it's worse than that.

Lights? I still think there must be some old fluorescent light fixtures in the shed out back. Oh, forget "think". If it comes into this house, it's unlikely to ever leave.

I love my house.

No girls allowed.

Hay


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Demi, it sounds you live in an animal paradise. I envy you. It sounds like you manage any problem you might have with humane means. Good for you.

Re: the netting. As I said before here, we inherited a small concrete pond built in 1920 when we bought the house. It was covered and we thought it would be charming to have a little pond right off the back porch. Clueless, we just bought little comets and watched them grow. One actually made it to 15 years, but we lived and learned. Big mistake was getting the koi which grew to massive size. So we had to rip out half the perennial garden and build a big pond with a waterfall to house these guys . Of course they reproduced and I have about 14 now. Hawks or herons never bother the little pond since it's surrounded by boxwoods and close to the house. But the big pond caught their attention the day the koi were placed there, and one swooped down and got my prize one. He couldn't carry it away since it was huge so he just ate half it's gut, and I must have interrupted him. So I stood by the pond till Mr lily came home and we netted it. We have black net which is less obtrusive looking, and have never had a problem since that day six or seven years ago. Your husband was very skilled in handling the bird without getting clawed or bitten

Re: squirrels. I just checked the back yard and I have eight fat ones stealing seed and suet. A few weeks ago when we were at daughter's house, a squirrel came out of their chimney and was racing around the dining room as we tried to shoo him out the front door where he eventually went. Grandson ,of course, didn't help but made a video which he tweeted. Alas their chimney sweeper found EIGHT dead squirrels in the chimney, three mummified ones an five recent dead ones.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Around this area, Patricae, the proper offices want to be notified of unusual deaths, the possibility of disease, etc... but, I hear ya.

When we find more than just one bird laying dead, for no apparent reason, we make the call. They come take the carcass for study. But if they asked, I would save one for them; we do have the necessary storage available.

Lily, FF doesn't strike me as the kind of hunter that just shoots anything that moves... he seems to understand the importance of wildlife management, which sometimes does include issuing nuisance permits or lifting certain restrictions, extending certain seasons, etc...

What the general public sometimes doesn't understand is that without careful management of populations within given areas, there won't be enough food for certain animals to hunt or eat, and they will either starve, or become stressed which lowers the immune system's ability to fight certain illnesses or disease. It's far kinder to maintain a population through hunting than it is to let Mother Nature exterminate in her own slow and often cruel, torturous way.

Hay, you only need find a woman, if you want the constant companionship that offers, that is, who has priorities that more closely match yours.

If I spent all my time cleaning and polishing and dusting and worrying about the amount of clutter my husband collects, I'd not only lose my mind, I'd miss out on all the little things life has to offer. There was a time when a spotless and organized house was a priority... but then I got my kids, and I realized that some things just aren't very important in the greater scheme of things.

I don't want to look back on my life and realize I wasted half of it continually trying to tidy and clean a world that rejects such practices, using an overload of chemicals that harm it in a negative way. To me, there are more important things than maintaining a house so clean it doesn't look lived in.

As my Dad used to say, "you gotta live in a home!"... and he'd always say that because it drove him nuts my Mom wanted to keep covers on all the furniture, collect shoes at the door, and throw everything out. She was the other half of Felix and Oscar!

I would, however, probably exchange the twine for hardware chain and hooks, though... or a more sturdy framework of some type. ;-)

Ah, yes... the nuisance of tree rats! We used to have an overabundance of them, but through careful "management" of the population, I no longer have to worry about them getting into the house or other buildings through various entrances, burning down the barn, or destroying every bulb in the gardens.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

I have an abundance of squirrels in the 35 years I've lived in this old house, and they have done not one iota of damage except rip up a porch cushion to make their nest up in the tree. And sometimes they hog the feeders. None ever in all our four chimneys, none in our attic although our three story house is ALL wood clapboard siding. I don't look at them as tree rats, since I raised one with a bottle, and he was a sweetie who still eats out of my hand. ..

FF shoots cats. Would you call that managing wildlife if it was one of your pets?


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RE: Big Game Backlash

I'm against netting. A long time ago I used it on my strawberries and raspberries, but I couldn't stand seeing the trapped birds and chipmunks.

A couple of years ago I had the task of extricating a Garter Snake from some netting. Heebee Geebee City.

Hay


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RE: Big Game Backlash

A couple of years ago I had the task of extricating a Garter Snake from some netting. Heebee Geebee City.

Hay

*

Found a water snake in my netting a few months ago; he hadn't been dead very long.

A day and a half I went out to remove him and all that was left was the head.

I was thankful for whatever ate him.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

In all the years of my netting , I have never had a trapped bird or animal. Occasionally a small bird will fly under the netting, but after a few tries, he flies out unharmed. I definitely need the netting to protect the koi from the herons and hawks who fly over on their way to the creek. It's heartbreaking to find a dead gutted one because they are very tame and like pets to me. I felt bad because we built this big beautiful pond for him and the other two, and he was killed the day he was released in it.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 15:04

Pet cats shouldn't be outside bothering other property owners and killing their pets and stock.

And being exposed to feline AIDS, rabies, coyotes etc.

Statistically indoor cats live three times longer than ones that are allowed to wander around outside.

Entire populations of rare birds have been decimated by feral domestic cats.

The poaching and extinction problem in Africa trumps all other concerns about wildlife management there; if you think a western hunter posing with an animal they have shot is distressing try looking at films or pictures of the aftermath of the poaching of large animals for body parts.

Start with entire groups of elephants that have had their tusks cut out and their feet cut off.

The tiger is now extinct in much of it range because of the demand in China for tiger penis soup.

My new favorite declaration, picked up from a television interview:

Thoughts are not facts


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RE: Big Game Backlash

well lily, I don't just go around killing critters. I do woodchuck hunt, I will kill all I can. They eat my gardens, big time. My mini horse has a severly injured shoulder from stepping in a chuck hole, its the 2nd horse which its happened to. I broke a front wheel off a tractor and bent a piece of the baler from hitting chuck holes.
I will shoot a hawk if it is after my pigeons, its not like they are in short supply and it might be a 100$ pigeon, could be a 5$ pigeon too but they need protection. I do try to use other strategies when flying the birds such as certain times of day and using deterrents such as cd discs.

There is a large Blue Heron rookery on a friends property about 3 miles north of me. Have never had one in any of my ponds or stock tanks where the koi and gold fish are.

Keep your stinkin feral cats off my property and they can live long happy lives. Stink up my porch and they are dead!


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RE: Big Game Backlash

"Hay, you only need find a woman, if you want the ,constant companionship that offers, that is, who has priorities that more closely match yours."

More like constant nagging in my experience.

I was talking with one of my beautiful dance friends the other night about how wonderful it is that I get to choose when and how I spend my time with women. I've found a way to strike a pretty good balance. Right now, here with no one but me. Tonight, Argentine Tango. Win-win.

I love women. Hard to believe from this conversation, I know. Back when we had the conversation about marriage, I joked that I was holding out for the perfect woman, not one with my priorities, but one that loved picking up after me. I'm still holding out.

All those wonderful nights of dancing with beautiful women? I wouldn't trade it for a clean house for anything.

Hay


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Thank God I live far away from the likes of you, FF. I know I'd quickly move if I found myself within a mile of someone like you. BTW, all my 15 cats over the decades have never set one foot outside my house, but if by chance one escaped and was shot by you, believe me there would be hell to pay. I sure pity your neighbors.

And a majestic hawk has way more value than your stupid pigeon.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 16:37

It's all about keeping pets and livestock, free-ranging predators separated from one another. And if you have target animals outside, in coops, pens or ponds that are not secure, it is definitely a case of

If you build it, they will come

My girlfriend has had a cat come inside a coop and kill a nesting duck. Racoons have climbed onto her enclosed porch and gotten into her cat food - as have other cats. Of all the intruding cats I have seen on her place, only one has looked like it might be living on its own.

At a time when I was not going up there she also had dogs from the neighborhood come and attack goats she had tethered on the property.

She shoots at them all, that is the most direct solution when you do not have your animals fully protected and the destructive visitations are already underway.

She even shot one of the dogs.

One time when I was there she shot a cat through a window. She knew it was there because I told her about it.

This is a large, mostly wooded rural property where there are no other people close by - and regular crops of new predators.

Everything dies at some point, and a well placed, fatal shot is a lot quicker than a wasting disease, fatal parasitic infection or death from an infected wound - all common outcomes for free-living animals receiving no veterinary care.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

"And a majestic hawk has way more value than your stupid pigeon."

Really?

It does, indeed, sound like you value some lives over other lives. Is it OK that someone might have a different ordering than you?

Out for the evening.

Have fun.

Hay


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RE: Big Game Backlash

No, the animals have the same value. I like pigeons and feed them when I go to the city parks, but by most they are regarded as winged rats. Hawks are protected, and most people stop in their tracks to notice a soaring majestic redtailed hawk. No one stops to look at a pigeon.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

"No, the animals have the same value."

...

"And a majestic hawk has way more value than your stupid pigeon."

It's a wonder you can live with yourself.

Clean shaven and heading out the door.

Hay


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Remind me, too. I think I've asked this before.

What do you feed your cats?

Hay


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RE: Big Game Backlash

aaaah, cat food.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

lily: "And a majestic hawk has way more value than your stupid pigeon."

Says you.

__



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RE: Big Game Backlash

And a majestic hawk has way more value than your stupid pigeon.

*

From other posts I am wondering if you think that thin or pretty people have way more value than overweight or ugly people, too.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Lily, if the cat were my pet, it wouldn't be wandering around anywhere that FF could shoot it. Part of being a responsible pet owner is controlling one's pets. There are leash laws in most urban areas... even in small towns.

As Bboy notes, rural living has slightly different rules. Part of maintaining livestock or other domestic animals on a farm or farmette includes protecting them from invading wild or feral animals, and trying to manage those populations and maintain a semblance of balance, and safety for those domestic animals.

Part of maintenance on a farm sometimes includes managing the feral cat population. Those are not pets. They are working rodent control. We maintain them to the best of our ability, and keep one female in breedable condition to keep the gene pool alive... because they're excellent mousers that work hard. But we have no control over all the cats people dump off on the sides of the roads that manage to find their way into our barn.

Not one of the cats that reside in the barn was a pet owned by anyone who lives here. Two persons here are allergic to cats. Every single cat is or was a stray that either got dumped, or wandered in from another farm in the county... and a couple are offspring of the senior female. The females normally stick around, while the toms come and go. I rarely see the same tom twice.

What would happen, though, if the feral cat population were left to explode? It's likely that an overpopulation will result in illness and die off, something I'd like to avoid.

Things like distemper, coccidea, and other illnesses are fairly common among feral animals, if you can't trap and vaccinate or treat in some manner, and they also can be carriers of certain illness or disease, not showing any symptoms, themselves, but sometimes passing things on to other animals.

Feral tomcats have a nasty habit of killing their own young, too... which keeps competition down for the females, and brings them back into season.

I like my mousers... they work hard. As responsible caretakers, it's up to us to ensure that the small population stays healthy, and stays small. And to that end, we do what we have to do.

We also have a couple of packs of roaming coydogs and feral canines... very dangerous to smaller livestock, and to humans. They are partially domesticated, so they don't have a natural fear of humans, and they hunt in packs, which makes them dangerous. It's a lot harder to try to manage or eliminate those feral packs, but we still try.

The common Pigeon isn't too bad, but there's not a lot of meat on a single bird, so one would have to tag more than one to make a meal. As a homing bird, however, they are incredible in their ability to fly distance, and to know, as the crow flies, exactly where they're going, and whether or not they can make the trip. It's a majestic undertaking, to be sure.

Hawks are majestic, too... but how majestic would one be if it were slowly starving to death or ill due to the stresses of overpopulation? Any given territory is only capable of supporting a certain number of animals. Numbers have to be carefully maintained.

Red Tails are especially numerous in this area... almost to the point of too many. There are less Harris Hawks by number.

Every animal, every living thing on this planet, from the largest mammal to the smallest bacteria, has it's place and plays it's part within the food chain, within the great cycle that is life. Not one is more or less important in that cycle. All are required to complete it... but since humankind is the dominating animal in the food chain, and because he's kind of messed up the natural order of things, it's his job to manage the populations in a reasonable and responsible way.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Its just a pity lily isn't able to appreciate what a pigeon is, a winged rat they are not. Only the most ignorant people say things like that.. My pigeons fly from 1900 to 2200 yards per minute, for up to 600 miles. In 100-150 sprint races they exceed that. The young birds are making 150 mile races by a couple months of age. The top selling racing Homer for 2013 sold for $250,000 and his offspring fetch $20,000 each. Many one loft races in the USA pay out near 1 million bucks, even 100th place can make $1,000. The south African race pays 1 million bucks and the top Chinese races pay 5 million bucks. That's just racing Homers.
There are other performing breeds such as rollers and tipplers which also perform amazing feats of endurance. Sure, the common feral pigeon is looked down on by some, who really haven't a clue of what they think they know about pigeons. Oh well. Oh by the way, I bet even lily would like my little Old German Owls, they are the cutest little birds, my gr daughter just loves em. I am into the genetics of the pigeons, I like color breeding, pulling out the recessives, etc. They are a great animal to play with genetics.

My barn cats were dump offs, some slug drove by and kicked the poor things out. Now I have her litter, Bluey and cally. bluey likes me to hold her, Cally not so much. Sorry , they gotta eat generic cheapo cat food and scraps, but they seem to be quite efficient at voling. The ferals just come to piss on my firewood which is bad for their health. The cat lady up the road seems to have seen the light, no more cats all over the neighborhood!
The little hawk I had years ago was a Prairie falcon hybrid. She was one cool little critter . We used to climb trees as kids and get red tail chicks from nests and gave them to a hawker.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

"We also have a couple of packs of roaming coydogs and feral canines... very dangerous to smaller livestock, and to humans. They are partially domesticated, so they don't have a natural fear of humans, and they hunt in packs, which makes them dangerous. It's a lot harder to try to manage or eliminate those feral packs, but we still try."

Jodi, they are coyotes, not coydogs. Coydogs only occur at the outer ranges of coyote territory. That is because they cannot find other coyotes to mate with. So, they mate with the resident dogs, but over the years more coyotes move into the area.

Even if they do breed in certain areas, Illinois would not be one of them. There are plenty of coyotes in Illinois. My Dad used to coyote hunt, and I never saw one example of a 100% sure coydog.

" "Coyotes and dogs theoretically can interbreed to produce what is called a 'coydog'. However, depending on how much coyote and dog is inherited in the hybrid, crossbreeds with mostly dog genes usually have a reproductive cycle of dogs, not coyotes, and will give birth at times of the year when the pups cannot possibly survive (e.g., January). In addition, there are behavioral differences between most breeds of domestic dogs and coyotes which often prevents crossbreeding from occurring. Coyotes normally mate with other coyotes and not with dogs. [...] Coydogs occurred at the leading edge of coyote range expansion during the 1950 to early 1970's. The occurrence of a coydog would be an extremely rare event in New York today."[2]
The Crane Creek Wildlife Experiment Station of the Ohio Division of Wildlife conducted an analysis of skulls taken from encounters with wild canids in Ohio, cited in The Ohio Journal of Science. "From 1982 to 1988, skull collections were made in 71 counties, yielding 379 (87%) coyotes, 10 (2%) coydogs, and 25 (6%) feral dogs." The figures do not add to 100% because of skull damage hindering positive identification. "The incidence of coydog hybrids was high only in areas of expanding, widely dispersed coyote populations. [...] Mengel (1971) reviewed behavioral and physiological reasons why coydogs are adapted for survival less well than coyotes. These included inappropriate whelping time, lack of parental care by the male, and decreased fertility."[3][PDF]"

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Big Game Backlash

The ferals just come to piss on my firewood which is bad for their health.

You haven't lived a full life until you've had the major raccoon latrine in a 5 mile radius atop your woodpile.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

" The cat lady up the road seems to have seen the light, no more cats all over the neighborhood! "

Yeah, until yours grow up and replace hers.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

They aren't mine Frank, as I said, some undesirable dumped em off. Sooner or later Ill have to make tuff choices. Making tuff choices is what I was trained to do, so, Ill do it. Its easier with cats than with humans.

A friend up the road has a coy dog , they dug the litter out of a den in the woods. He bred it with his Aussie cattle dog and the pups were dispersed as pets. I don't like the thing much. The pups look like aussie mutts.

This post was edited by fancifowl on Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 20:49


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RE: Big Game Backlash

ff, for future reference, please call the Humane Society in your area. They will drive for miles to trap and remove any unwanted animals.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 22:24

Around here there's other animal welfare groups in operation also, this came to my attention when I had a disabled raccoon lying by the front door one hot summer day.

The volunteer that showed up said it was canine distemper, which the raccoons got from all the dogs in the area that people weren't keeping vaccinated.

Which takes us back to hyper consumerism, and people taking on companion animals that they aren't really willing to be good companions to.

Problem is, you can't put away a dog or cat a few days later, when you become bored or otherwise disenchanted.

You can, however, take them to an animal shelter - which is where a lot of old dogs (and not so old cats) end up - a sort of unwanted animal junk yard.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Sorry ff, I was just mistaken because I thought that you were saying that you were feeding them and raising a litter of kittens.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Can you people read?? I said MOST people call pigeons winged rats. I do not. I I love every living thing ,but I can't see how anyone who loves pigeons could shoot a hawk. I know they kill other birds(and koi) because I see in the summer other birds chasing them . I love pigeons and as I said , I always take food along when I go to the city to feed them. Years ago my neighbor had homing pigeons and he would get in his car and drive 100 miles , release his birds and they would be home before he was. Fascinating hobby.

Let me tell you about ferals. Eleven years ago this emaciated ugly greasy furred cat came in my year. I saw she was pregnant and near death. I fed her and she left. Next day she returned and I fed her again and then she disappeared for two days. When she came back she was even skinnier so I knew she had her babies. I had opened the doors to my two outbuildings for a sanctuary for her but she had them elsewhere. I had to follow her for a few days to finally find the kittens under my neighbors porch. Mr Lily brought a carrier and placed mom inside and I crawled way under the porch and grabbed three little kittens , two orange boys and a torti girl , spitting image of mom. I brought them all to my bathroom away from my cats and when the babies got bigger moved the family to a bedroom. I fostered the kittens until they could be adopted by the group I worked for. The boys went to a family and I kept mom, Nellie because older cats are last to be adopted and her daughter. All were neutered, and the vet said mom was 6 or 7. Fast forward to today where this feral cat is the most beautiful, friendly ,sweet cat I have ever had. Her greasy fur now feels like cashmere, and her green eyes sparkle. She's very savvy and smart and very friendly to all who visit. Her lookalike daughter, who has never been away from her mother and never been out of this house since she was a week old, never shows her face to strangers but is affectionate to us. I have had 15 cats in my life and Nellie is in the top three. That's a feral cat.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Frank, I am very aware of what roams through this property and general area, and fully aware of breeding possibilities. If you recall, dogs are our life, so to speak. I believe we've had this discussion before. There are coyotes, there are feral dogs, and there are also coydogs. We have more than one pack of canines within the area, and a few loners that travel through. One can see and hear and track the various life forms and predators that call this part of the state home. We have a decent game trail running right through the property and along the creek, and the types of habitat represented make for a lot of activity.

Over summer, with the sighting, sounds, and activity of a cougar family in the area, all canine activity stopped and everything disappeared for a while. They have only recently returned, and have resumed their own activities... which tells me that the cougars are no longer around the area, and they feel safe enough to show themselves again.

One can clearly see evidence of more than one pack, and we can even note various individuals that make up each pack. One large canine appears to be some type of wolf hybrid cross.

From what I've read, a cougar was dispatched in Whiteside County by a DNR officer... I don't know if it was the same adult we saw, and I sincerely hope not. The cougar is just beginning to make a comeback in terms of population and territory. It's killing was kind of sad.

I would think the reason there is so much canine activity, here, is because of the kennel in existence, and the females that throw off seasonal scent, if you catch my drift. It's a definite draw.

Bboy, nothing makes me angrier than the way in which so many humans treat the animals mankind has domesticated. There should be no need for all the shelters and rescues in full operation, there shouldn't be such high populations of feral animals, and there shouldn't be a need to euthanize so many, or have such an inordinate overpopulation of unwanted cats and dogs. It's a travesty.

While I realize supporting shelters is necessary in the moment, doing so without addressing the core causes of why they are needed in such high volume will only ensure that the problems continue in perpetuity... it's like putting a tiny little band aid on a gaping, infected wound... there will be no healing.

Legislation needs to change. We seem to have no choice, unfortunately, but to force people into responsible behavior patterns, and more forcibly inject some semblance of knowledge. This would include breeders and owners, alike.

I was just saying all of this to TxanGoddess on the other side of the forum... she happened to mention a shelter that was in need of support, and coincidentally, I had just finished writing a few letters to persons of some influence regarding that very subject.

Legislation is very loose and ineffective on a national level in the area of domestic pets, and an entire for-profit industry has formed around the pet trade. It is to the advantage of such industry to perpetuate misinformation and fallacy, which keeps the profits flowing. And as we all know, any legislation that does come about is always in favor of those who have the money and power to influence.

But the truth is, it doesn't take fancy, expensive facilities or high priced permits to be a good breeder, and it doesn't take a lot of money to be a good owner, either... it takes responsibility, knowledge, dedication, and the willingness to make some hard choices and carry through with those choices.

Unfortunately, unless truthful, factual information is presented to both the public and to those in positions to make a difference, what we see will only get worse.

FF, I don't know very much about pigeons, but I do know that those bred for it can perform some amazing feats of ability. It's not a wonder some desired offspring can fetch such high prices. In some areas of the world, certain breeds of canine also fetch enormous prices depending on their abilities or genetic lineage.

I see you mention breeding for specific coloration... but what about the desirable characteristics you can't see with the naked eye? Breeding birds can't be all that different from breeding canines, eh?

Lily, our senior mouser just happens to be a dark tortie female. I've named her Vixen, though I really don't think she cares. She's one of the only felines that is human friendly, and still retains enough "wild" instinct to avoid the dangers that come with living on a farm.



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RE: Big Game Backlash

omg jodik, you of all people can't go there! I'm off of this thread. My bp just shot through the roof.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Posted by jodik 5 (My Page) on
Wed, Nov 27, 13 at 8:54

Bboy, nothing makes me angrier than the way in which so many humans treat the animals mankind has domesticated.

*

Legislation?

There is already legislation.

THERE are those that won't even get their dogs vaccinated!

THERE are those that won't keep their dogs on a leash with signs up and laws that they must be.

What do you think more legislation is going to do?

Who is going to enforce it?

Treating animals with dignity that mankind has domesticated starts at home.


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RE: Big Game Backlash

Don't be coy... legislation is usually enforced at the state or local level. I'm not an officer, so I have no jurisdiction in forcing America to leash and control their pets, but there are officers who should be.

Once again, it all seems to come down to two main camps, with very few people understanding the important middle ground:

In one camp are those who feel profit should reign supreme over everything... (even people, as we've seen in the threads on health care and welfare)... and that profit should also be what drives the way we treat our pets and other animals, domestic and/or otherwise. They're okay without legislation on the milling of puppies and kittens, among other things, because this is part of the profit. They're okay with the current production of livestock for consumption, because it's profitable. As long as legislation is in their favor, they pretend to want "small government" in all things. Within this group are your trophy hunters who discard everything but the trophy... among others.

In the other camp exist those who feel we should treat our animals like little people and give them the vote, to put it kind of sarcastically. And though this camp has more compassion, some of it is misplaced through the very misinformation and fallacy that continue to circulate through the world of pets and other animals. They're okay with legislating against the milling of pets, but don't really understand why or what needs to change within the viewpoint of the larger picture. This camp contains those more apt to believe that ABPT's are the most dangerous of canine breeds, but can't pick a real one out of a lineup. It contains the type that would prolong an animal's life because they couldn't bear to let it go, and would do anything medically possible to keep it alive... regardless of any unknown suffering that may cause. This camp also contains some who acknowledge that eating meat is bad and all animals are sacred, but they say so while wearing leather shoes and using other products made from animals.

And then there are those who take the middle position. As the species who domesticated these animals and dominates over them today, it is our job, our responsibility to do right by these creatures... especially if we're going to play god and breed them... whether for pets, for consumption, or whatever the purpose might be. This group understands that wildlife must be managed, that livestock grown for food doesn't need to be produced or slaughtered inhumanely, and that knowledge in all areas of animal husbandry is important to the task of maintaining quality, healthy animals.

"Treating animals with dignity that mankind has domesticated starts at home."

So does parenting human offspring, but we can see the major gaps in how that's going, can't we? So, this isn't just about pets... this is about how people are in general.

"THERE are those that won't even get their dogs vaccinated!"

Yes, and there are parents who won't get their human offspring vaccinated, either. But why might that be?

Those same questions are prevalent within the world of veterinary medicine, and for the same reasons. Is what the industry of modern pharmaceuticals in veterinary medicine telling us really the truth? Or is some of it misleading, or harmful even, in order to realize profit?

With an overpopulation of just dogs and cats such as it is in this country, you're telling me that the legislation we have and enforce is enough, or is reasonably written? Really?

You don't see a problem in anyone being able to go out and obtain a pup or kit without any prior knowledge whatsoever, and then when that ignorance provides for an unmanageable pet, to just turn it over to a shelter or drop it somewhere along the road?

You don't see a problem in just anyone being able to breed any male and female canine or feline together, without any prior knowledge, as many times as they want in succession, and then foist those offspring off on unwitting buyers through the use of misinformation and fallacy, just to realize a profit?

You don't see anything wrong in a giant industry that seeks not to help us care properly for our pets' nutritional and other needs, but seeks to make a profit at the expense of our general ignorance?

Like I said... something really does need to change... and it would appear the area most needing change is in the misinformation and fallacy departments. Knowledge always leads to success...




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