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Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Posted by purpleinopp 8b AL (My Page) on
Mon, Nov 12, 12 at 17:06

I've watched a few episodes of this and confused about what these people imagine happening and how they expect the preparations they've made to apply to that. Most of them have prepared and stockpiled to continue living their *current* lifestyles, batteries, generators to run all of that electric/electronic stuff. Spending thousands of dollars to have electricity for a few weeks or months in response to "doomsday" completely misses the point to me.

Can you imagine a scenario where you would lock your family in a hidden underground bunker which you intend to be strong enough to prevent your neighbors from breaking into, (as so many of them have mentioned,) yet expect the Today show to continue telling you what's up while making cell phone calls, microwaving dinner?

I also don't understand the ones in really cold places. One family was stockpiling firewood and their plan was to chop more with their electric log splitter if need be. If you think the world is ending, wouldn't you want to move to a warmer place and THEN setup your shelter or bunker and supplies? Why should keeping yourself and family warm be a burden you have to bear when that is avoidable by moving before it would have to be done on foot? Keeping warm requires a huge amount of time, effort, resources, and so many more calories.

And won't people see the smoke from their fire...?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I don't think anyone has ever accused the preppers of having everything worked out.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Don't worry... the earth is warming at a fairly quick pace. That part, I doubt will be much of a problem. It will be cooling that will present an issue.

Most doomsday scenarios include loss of major power grids and other infrastructure. If you are not logically prepared, and adequately prepared... you're toast, anyway.

Hey... we all gotta die someday... when your number is up, it's up. There is no fighting it. What's to fear, anyway? If something should happen, and we do survive... great. We're fairly good at not requiring any luxury or help to make it. But if we don't happen to survive whatever these people imagine happening... so be it.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 12, 12 at 17:23

"A fool and his money are soon parted"


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

purple, I haven't watched the show, but you are so right - true doomsday prep is realizing you will have to live quite differently than before.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I can't watch television like that. I don't watch any reality or local series lineups. I just can't.

Give me a good documentary, an exciting movie, a cartoon, or full contact combat sports any day of the week.

I have no time for the Honey Boo Boos, the Kardashians, or any other type of foolishness. This forum is the only extra-curricular thing I participate in.

Too true, Ohiomom... and there's one born every minute...


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

In reality, there are very few people who would be truly prepared for a doomsday scenario. It's not just electricity. If everything truly collapsed and they were on their own, isolated from neighbours who might take their stuff, how long do you think the ammunition would last? Your lifetime? Your childrens? Do you split your remaining weapons and ammo amongst them when you die?

Do you know how to manufacture gunpowder from scratch?

What about when your matches/lighters run out? How many times have you started a fire with just a stick?

How about your axe or hatchet? When that gets lost or damaged, do you know how to find more iron ore? Do you know how to mine it, extract the iron ore from the rock, smelt it, smith it?

If not, are you skilled in fashioning weapons from flint or bone? Are you proficient in using them?

I doubt there would be many white people that I'm aware of who could survive in a true doomsday scenario. I know some natives who could, but most of the younger ones have no clue. Up in Newfoundland there are quite a number who could easily survive because they still retain the skills necessary, at least to a larger extent than in Nova Scotia.

The thing is, nobody can find the time or have the skill to do all these things by themselves, even if they weren't modern day humans who have lost those skills. That's why humans have always been tribal societies... you need the cooperation of the village to accomplish all these tasks.

So why would you isolate yourself, take on a solitary existence when the cooperative society is the one which will succeed?


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 12, 12 at 18:42

HG makes a very good point, humans are pack animals not lone wolves. Survival would depend on the "group", not the "individual" cause like it or not one person "cannot build that".

:)


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

After watching the break down of the most simple information sources in an information savvy neighborhood during this several days we we're blacked out I am not hopeful.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 12, 12 at 19:25

Actually Joe I disagree, look at how many of you pulled together to help each other out. When you had no power didn't you say how you took your neighbors phones to be charged ? Look how neighbors are working together, Maggie was lent a car, Kwoods neighbor fixed his fence. I am sure there are many stories we will never hear of people helping each other through the aftermath, just as they did after 9/11.

It takes a village....


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

If there's no indoor plumbing and I can't use my blowdryer, what's the point? :-)


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Ah, but Ohiomom... the issue is whether they could do it in a TRUE void. Sure, they could work together, but how many of them possess the skills to function without modern conveniences? I don't mean a power outage... I mean no Home Depot to get your supplies at, no canned goods to stock or buy, no hunting and fishing store to buy tackle/ammo from.

Huddling together for warmth is one thing. Actually surviving on a long term basis is another.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I'm with you Jill.

And if any fool tries to take away my blow dryer or toilet paper, I'll come armed and dangerously angry.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

"Survival would depend on the "group", not the "individual" cause like it or not one person "cannot build that"."

Precisely. Varied skill sets and cooperation are imperative to species survival... when it comes to the human species. Unfortunately, large portions of the human population would not survive a cataclysmic event. That's just an obvious truth.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

HG, you are missing the fact of the immense store of already-processed stuff that exists across most of NA. Newfoundland is a little light on that, I agree, so I'd way rather be someplace in the mid-atlantic or in the rust-belt like where you are.

Nobody would need to know how to mine and smelt iron ore for many lifetimes with so much highly-processed high-grade metals all around. A simple forge and a reasonably skilled blacksmith can make pretty much any hand tool from a junked car. It isn't huge stretch to learn simple low-temp metal-smithing, and in truth survival could be achieved without the forge, just with the junked cars and files.

In any case, it would take a good 50 years of gardening just to wear out the tools sitting in basements and sheds across the continent. We would have 3-4 generations to develop appropriate skills as far as deploying new raw resources, plenty of time.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 13, 12 at 7:50

Agree with PNB ...


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I'm not sure why hiding from their neighbours is their biggest concern. It's the zombies they should be worried about...


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

No doubt, stephf!


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

And the scary thing is that there are probably a few dim bulbs out there that really do believe zombies would be a possible threat...


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Steph, you just made me spit out my coffee. You owe me a new keyboard.

On that topic though, did you know the doomsday preppers refer to other (non-doomsday prepper) people as zombies?


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I'm currently in negotiations to buy the estate of one of our peak oil doomer customers from his widow.

He buried several oil tanks on two properties that he used for bulk storage of heating oil.

When I went to pump out and remove one of the tanks, it was only about 1/4 full. Another tank was about half full. His widow suspects that two of her sons stole hundreds of gallons of fuel.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Well then, HG... we'll all have to be prepared to receive a double tap... and not just one bullet hole with possible survival conditions... in case we're spotted post apocalypse.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Would doomsday preppers consider a double tap a waste of ammo? I hear they are quite frugal people....


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I'd worry about the toilet facilities (if I was THAT paranoid).

-Ron-


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Wed, Nov 14, 12 at 13:04

Of course, I tell those who snicker that knitting isn't a hobby, it's a post apocalyptic skill set................

But in reality, I really do think about these things too.

Says me, who just found out we're at war again. And, yes, one of my first thoughts (not my first, which were about other things, you bet yer boots) was about toilet paper. Pathetic, right?


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

As one who won't go camping because I can't bring my bathtub and blow dryer, I'd be toast ,I guess. I think the people on the east coast know a little of how dire the conditions can get and quickly. Never watched the doomsday preppers. Where and when does it air?

This is nothing new. People have been doing this for decades. When I was little , my uncle built a bunker and filled it with all he could need in case the Russians attacked. I have no idea what happened to it or even where it was. I think his newspaper did a thing on it years ago. Since he died in 1973, he never got to use it.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

The amassing of toilet paper is apparently a big concern with the post Apoc crowd. Bless their hearts.

My hopes is being taken up by a group of healthy young things who would look after me in exchange for my vast survival knowledge-I do know how to start a fire without matches, I can spin, weave, preserve meat(just made pastrami this weekend) I even know a little blacksmithing. I know how to distill, make vinegar and boil salt from seawater but I am old and my joints are shot....


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Wed, Nov 14, 12 at 14:04

you know more than I patriciae!! As a knitter, spinning is next.

I'm interested in the making vinegar thing, actually, as in my head the list of essentials have vinegar near the top. If I could only be sure that my sons are with me, as each of them have crucial, but different skills, like preserving meat.

And yes, I really do have a list of these things in my head. I just usually don't tell people about them, as most would look at me funnier than they do now with organic gardening, knitting, etc.

Excuse me I need to deal with the news now. It's very bad and it's gonna get worse. Peace to all.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

It was on last night, national geographic channel I think.

Last night there was a guy convinced an attack of small pox is imminent, and he was having his family practice evacuating by packing up their chicken coop, a giant bag of sugar, and donning white haz-mat suits in their suburban front yard.

Then a guy who weighed well over 400 lbs who said he keeps in shape by chopping firewood.

Then a 14-yr old kid who had a large cache of weapons and at first said he would have to leave his Mom behind when he bugged out because a looming financial crisis would soon cause a breakdown in the fabric of society, but changed his mind at the end because she knows how to can food.

I admit, I'm amused.

Toilet paper. That goes back to my opening point, trying to ensure life doesn't change in the event of catastrophe. A truly perplexing yet fascinating dichotomy of thought.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

How do you make vinegar? It's a particular kind of ferment, isn't it?


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Batya, I'm so sorry to hear about Gaza etc -- how is the mood right now where you are?

I can sew, can, spin and weave -- and work with lots of fun power tools, which would be worth precisely zero in a zombie apocalypse.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

  • Posted by ENMc none (My Page) on
    Wed, Nov 14, 12 at 17:05

"Excuse me I need to deal with the news now. It's very bad and it's gonna get worse. Peace to all."

OMG, Batya... be safe. I saw your first post where you mentioned this... and now, this.

Take care, however you can.

E


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Batya - please stay safe. Not good. Again.

I'm with you lily. Haven't camped since I graduated college and got a job and could afford a hotel. Hated it. Now my idea of camping is a hotel without room service. So I'd be useless.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Hand tools that don't require power, except a little muscle power, are just as important to have. And since a little knowledge of basic physics is our friend, a good pry bar or pipe to lengthen a wrench handle gives you oodles more power!

I would say that living rural has forced me to learn many basic skills of general survival, and since I married an industrial engineer with varied skills out the ying yang, I think I'll be alright. ;-)

Batya, I'm not a religious person, but I do wish you the best... may good karma surround you and yours... be safe.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Vinegar is a particular culture- a bacteria. It is called vinegar Mother(acetobacter) and can be captured from the air if you dont live in an antiseptic house or more probably you can culture unpasturized apple cider-open and let it sit- or you can use a clump of grapes or some wine you didnt finish-if it turnes to vinegar you have the right bacteria-if you get the wrong bacteria it smells horrible and will mold. Once you have vinegar mother(you can buy it by the way) then you just keep some back to make your next batch. It will form a slab of slimy looking stuff that floats on the top of the vinegar then gradually settles as sediment to the bottom of your container. Vinegar smells like vinegar so it is a no brainer. Vinegar was the real aim of people making hard cider in the old days-pickling being one of the best ways to preserve many kinds of foods and you can use it to clean. But now that I have shared this tidbit of survival information I have less to barter with...drat.

My short coming is that I have never killed anything. While I know how to clean the intestine for making sausage I have not killed the pig.

Cp I can also use power tools. How cool you can spin as well-my favorite thing to spin is silk but presently I am doing a combed dark brown long staple Romney for a cabled vest.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

"When I went to pump out and remove one of the tanks, it was only about 1/4 full. Another tank was about half full. His widow suspects that two of her sons stole hundreds of gallons of fuel."

...or you just bought property contaminated from leaking UST's...

---------------

Batya, my God watch over you all :)


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

or you just bought property contaminated from leaking UST's...

They're like brand new - Top of the line 2 to 5 year old 7 gauge urethane coated UL-58 tanks with magnesium anodes.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Batya, stay safe, Lady. My prayers are with you.

"A fool and his money are soon parted"

Exactly right. Another appropriate cliche would be "there's one born every day". I'll tell ya-- if P.T. Barnum were alive today, he'd have a blast!!


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

"They're like brand new - Top of the line 2 to 5 year old 7 gauge urethane coated UL-58 tanks with magnesium anodes."

Well, thank goodness for that. I've been through a 10 year million $ PECFA cleanup, and it wasn't pretty.
I wouldn't begrudge them the fuel!

"there's one born every day". I thought that was "there's a fool born every minute"? Either way; P.T. would have loved it.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Well, thank goodness for that. I've been through a 10 year million $ PECFA cleanup, and it wasn't pretty.

There are literally thousands of USTs that people don't even know are on their properties.

When they started leaking, stopped using them, installed another tank, or put properties up for sale the previous owners simply removed the fill and vent pipes.

Some properties have 2, 3 or more abandoned USTs.

It's much more common for above ground outdoor tanks to rust out, flip over, or have broken/disconnected lines which leak fuel.

Even into the 90s, builders and homeowners were burying non burial rated 14 gauge and 12 gauge indoor tanks. Surprisingly most hold up well as long as the tank is near full, tilted, they draw fuel from the bottom and run their boiler year round.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Batya, most sincere wishes for resolution. I would say peace, but I've come to believe that the idea of world or even nations at peace is a myth birthed in dreams.
-My husband and family loved to camp, I was not a 'pee in the woods (watch out for snakes sweetie!), can't take a shower every day' kinda girl.
I did do it though, several times for too many days every single year with them in a big tent - and smiled the whole time - but then he decided he wanted to camp every three day weekend he could muster up and an entire week here and there, camping in isolaton throughout all the national forests around here and he wanted me to go every time for the company and to enjoy the beauty with me.
-I told him that I was about done worrying about a big cat or a bear getting me or my poor defenseless dog in the tent while we were sleeping - and I had roughed it about all the years I was willing to, so if he could arrange for a little something which provided an indoor toilet and shower found behind a door (for blessed privacy!), a double bed to snuggle in during those cold nights in the mountains, easy electricity for coffee making and egg frying in the morning, a fridge to keep supplies cold and even a television to catch the news with, then I was all in.

So, he did!
-He brought me to see a very tiny, brand new camper he found to pull behind his big truck - he also got a quiet generator for the air conditioner to run for awhile in triple digit hot weather since it already came with an air conditioner as well as a heater - and to use to save on the battery when cooking or keeping the water hot for showers - and it has a small fridge with freezer compartment, decent oven,a built in microwave AND a double bed which also serves as a place to sit down - but can sleep four as the tiny eating section can be taken apart and converted into two single beds.

-It's very tiny and VERY cramped when both of us are in there with the large labador at our feet, especially when I'm trying to prep a meal - but just exacly right for just the two of us -
-we use it all the time, we like to pull into the middle of nowhere by a stream, set up (we can do that FAST now) and then get out with the cameras and hike and maybe fish and we will walk the dogs for hours to simply enjoy the splendor. I even have a tiny little clear plastic vase by the sink window and always stick a few pretty wildflowers in it every day.
-At the end of the day he fires up the little hibachi outside for steaks or chicken or burgers while I take salad fixings out of the tiny fridge - we eat outdoors in all that glory - then we clean up, shower, I blow dry my clean wet hair, then climb into bed to watch the nightly news and read my book or and maybe a movie we brought along on the little dvr built into the small flat screen television he mounted.
He loves it now too, he likes to say he roughted it like a 'real man' for decades but now he likes his comfort, sleeping OFF the cold ground and the hot shower in the morning! His tent camping days are over.

THAT'S what I call 'roughing it in the forest'!
;)


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Thu, Nov 15, 12 at 7:42

Thank you all so much for your thoughts and prayers. i don't want to derail this very interesting thread, though!

Maybe with all the skills found here on HT, we should all just weather the disaster together. Now that would be interesting


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Tell ya what, Patriciae... we'll do the slaughter if you share some sausage... or vinegar! The barter system works for us! ;-)

Mylab, I grew up camping and "roughing it". Before I could even walk very well, my Dad had me holding a fishing pole, learning to fish.

My Mom hated roughing it in the wilderness and sleeping on the ground in a tent, so they compromised and bought a little pull behind trailer. As our family expanded, they would trade up to a slighter larger trailer to pull behind the old Ford Country Squire station wagon.

The first couple of small trailers I remember didn't have much in the way of luxury. No bathroom facilities... so we used a little porta-potty... the kitchen portion was tiny and had a sink that you had to pump to get water from the holding tank... the table folded down for bed space, and the upper bunk in back was so close to the ceiling that it was almost unbearable to sleep in. No A/C, but it did have a little heater.

We took at least 3 or 4 short vacations per year, seeing a different part of the United States on each trip, my Dad diligently driving through the night to get to various destinations. I've been to every major National Park, every cave, every attraction, and have some memories of Expo '67, the World's Fair in Montreal, Canada.

We saw the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Yosemite, the Hoover Dam, Carlsbad Caverns, Mount Rushmore, California's Redwood Forest, Rock City and Ruby Falls, Disneyland, and later Disney World (way before it was ever finished), South Padre Island in Texas, Fort De Soto Park in Florida... as a family, we traveled everywhere... and camped... and I feel so lucky to have seen the United States and Canada as a child growing up!

My Dad did all the driving, and us kids would stay up at night and help navigate, using those big paper maps that never folded back up the right way! We'd stop at truck stops to refuel, and my Dad would treat us to hot cocoa while he had coffee to keep awake, filling a thermos to take with. He'd speak with truckers about the best routes, traffic conditions, weather, and get information about construction or other hazards to avoid.

We spent many a Thanksgiving camped out, roasting a turkey over a fire, baking potatoes sliced with onions and wrapped in foil, buried in the hot coals. We fished often and ate our catch. Some of my fondest memories as a child are of family vacations, hauling that old trailer behind the station wagon.

As we got older, and the traded in trailers got larger, they also came equipped with more luxuries, which thrilled my Mom! The last one I recall was 24 feet in length, had a bathroom with a shower, A/C, a television and microwave, and could sleep about 8 people quite comfortably. We still brought along a big old army tent for those of us who liked it a bit rougher.

We also settled on Fort De Soto Park as our favorite place to camp, and spent two glorious weeks every winter soaking up the sun, walking the sand bars at 5 am while the tide was still out, in search of shells or whatever the Gulf left behind overnight.

Oh, the memories! Gosh, could I tell some stories!

And then, as an adult, I got another opportunity to see the United States as a co-driver/owner-operator of a giant Kenworth tractor-trailer. The painted canyons of the Dakotas are so lovely... the mountains on either coast a sight to behold, from sea to shining sea, and every state in between, I've seen quite a bit... and I've loved and treasure it all.

Today, sleeping on the ground in a sleeping bag does horrid things to my broken body, but I still enjoy sitting around the campfire with my kids, now adults, watching the grandkids have a blast, and if I must, I'll pile up a few sleeping bags or grab an air mattress and crash in a tent, curled up with either my dog, or my son's pit bull, Layla.

There's nothing quite like the great outdoors, and when you're surrounded with family and a group of close knit friends, enjoying s'mores and a cold beer or soda, or coffee percolated over that open fire, gazing at the stars on a clear night... well, that's just about as close to what I used to imagine heaven was like. :-)


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Tell ya what, Patriciae... we'll do the slaughter if you share some sausage... or vinegar! The barter system works for us! ;-)

Mylab, I grew up camping and "roughing it". Before I could even walk very well, my Dad had me holding a fishing pole, learning to fish.

My Mom hated roughing it in the wilderness and sleeping on the ground in a tent, so they compromised and bought a little pull behind trailer. As our family expanded, they would trade up to a slighter larger trailer to pull behind the old Ford Country Squire station wagon.

The first couple of small trailers I remember didn't have much in the way of luxury. No bathroom facilities... so we used a little porta-potty... the kitchen portion was tiny and had a sink that you had to pump to get water from the holding tank... the table folded down for bed space, and the upper bunk in back was so close to the ceiling that it was almost unbearable to sleep in. No A/C, but it did have a little heater.

We took at least 3 or 4 short vacations per year, seeing a different part of the United States on each trip, my Dad diligently driving through the night to get to various destinations. I've been to every major National Park, every cave, every attraction, and have some memories of Expo '67, the World's Fair in Montreal, Canada.

We saw the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Yosemite, the Hoover Dam, Carlsbad Caverns, Mount Rushmore, California's Redwood Forest, Rock City and Ruby Falls, Disneyland, and later Disney World (way before it was ever finished), South Padre Island in Texas, Fort De Soto Park in Florida... as a family, we traveled everywhere... and camped... and I feel so lucky to have seen the United States and Canada as a child growing up!

My Dad did all the driving, and us kids would stay up at night and help navigate, using those big paper maps that never folded back up the right way! We'd stop at truck stops to refuel, and my Dad would treat us to hot cocoa while he had coffee to keep awake, filling a thermos to take with. He'd speak with truckers about the best routes, traffic conditions, weather, and get information about construction or other hazards to avoid.

We spent many a Thanksgiving camped out, roasting a turkey over a fire, baking potatoes sliced with onions and wrapped in foil, buried in the hot coals. We fished often and ate our catch. Some of my fondest memories as a child are of family vacations, hauling that old trailer behind the station wagon.

As we got older, and the traded in trailers got larger, they also came equipped with more luxuries, which thrilled my Mom! The last one I recall was 24 feet in length, had a bathroom with a shower, A/C, a television and microwave, and could sleep about 8 people quite comfortably. We still brought along a big old army tent for those of us who liked it a bit rougher.

We also settled on Fort De Soto Park as our favorite place to camp, and spent two glorious weeks every winter soaking up the sun, walking the sand bars at 5 am while the tide was still out, in search of shells or whatever the Gulf left behind overnight.

Oh, the memories! Gosh, could I tell some stories!

And then, as an adult, I got another opportunity to see the United States as a co-driver/owner-operator of a giant Kenworth tractor-trailer. The painted canyons of the Dakotas are so lovely... the mountains on either coast a sight to behold, from sea to shining sea, and every state in between, I've seen quite a bit... and I've loved and treasure it all.

Today, sleeping on the ground in a sleeping bag does horrid things to my broken body, but I still enjoy sitting around the campfire with my kids, now adults, watching the grandkids have a blast, and if I must, I'll pile up a few sleeping bags or grab an air mattress and crash in a tent, curled up with either my dog, or my son's pit bull, Layla.

There's nothing quite like the great outdoors, and when you're surrounded with family and a group of close knit friends, enjoying s'mores and a cold beer or soda, or coffee percolated over that open fire, gazing at the stars on a clear night... well, that's just about as close to what I used to imagine heaven was like. :-)


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I've seen that prepper show a couple of times and it always cracks me up. Most of the people are heavily prepared to survive for a year, sometimes even two with supplies. But very few of them are equipped to survive multi-generationally. Just what do they think is going to happen: Society will fall apart but in just a year or so, the power grid will come back up? And a clean water supply that doesn't come out of the faucet...for most of them, forget about it.

I saw one segment about an extended family of preppers on a farm in South Carolina (I believe) where they were very proud of having converted vehicles to run off cooking oil because they knew gas supplies would run out. And just where were they planning to get multiple gallons of cooking oil a year or so down the road?

Usually the preppers talk about being able to defend their house with fire arms, and I'm thinking once society falls apart, the marauders will just burn you out of that nice suburban house with its "fish pond swimming pool.

I did see one group in the southwest who looked like they might actually make it, but frankly I wouldn't be interested in living as rough as they are living now. And of course how were they going to obtain the medications they were all dependent on wasn't a real question.

But my favorite was the family in New York City prepping to live through a major volcanic eruption while sheltering in place in their NYC highrise apartment with their stack of air bottles? Has no explained to them that NYC only has about a week of food supply. A few months down the road, what are they going to eat and drink and where are they going to get it?


I'm always prepared for dealing with a week without electricity, which happens way too often for someone who lives in Washington DC. I guess I do have a half dozen useful survival tools from weaving to midwife'ing livestock, so if it really did all come apart maybe I could convince a tribe I was an old "wise woman" they should support.

Pnbrown: It isn't the shovel head that is the problem, it is replacing the handles so they can stand up to real use without home deport. And just how many reasonably competent blacksmith are there around?

But I agree with purpleinopp, if it ever really does come completely apart, first move to a part of the country where you don't have to chop enough wood to live through snow storms. And then find a bunch of ren fest or SCA reenactors.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I'm not a doomsday prepper, but I'm better prepared than most of the doomers I've known.

We invited one of our doomer customers on a 3 day winter camping, hiking and icefishing adventure.

Into the first night he couldn't take the cold, so my nephew escorted him back to our vehicles and drove him home.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Good memories, Jodik.

I enjoyed hearing about your vacations.

We didn't make it that far, Mom and Dad would talk about going somewhere else but we always wound up going to Arkansas and Missouri, to FT. Leonardwood where they got married and lived for six months before dad shipped off to Germany. We heard over and over the stories about Dad giving the last few dollars in his pocket to the guy that played the organ at the chapel and how they lived off one case of Sugar Pops some officer gave them, for eleven days until Dad's next paycheck (they were 19 and 20).

I even drove down for their wedding anniversary a few years ago just six weeks before he died and heard the same stories, Daddy looking over at mom, holding her hand, winking at her when recounting the stories again. That kind of love doesn't come around often.

It wasn't until I met DH that I started traveling across the country to the national parks like you did--he took me in his TR6, packed just to take advantage of every little nook and cranny, tent, tarp, and Coleman stove strapped on the back and we would be up at 6 and not shut down until dark and put up the tent at many a KOA, which I had never heard of but he knew I had to have my shower and shave my legs every day. Thank God for KOAs. I'd feed him fresh cherries and grapes as we traversed the great west and it was the best of times. We ended our time together doing what we did in the beginning. I fed him grapes and honeydew melon while driving through the Adirondacks the morning before he died. How perfect can it get?

I happen to believe that this group, if we could get along and not argue, would have a superior chance of surviving and getting along. We already know a lot about particular skills and strengths and weaknesses, and everyone here seems to be self sufficient and resourceful.

However, I have no plans to buy water or make plans for any cataclysmic event in December. The fun is kind of gone out of life so sayonara if it comes. My girls will be traveling home for Christmas together by plane and I'll be here with the dog and frog. What a way to go.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

first move to a part of the country where you don't have to chop enough wood to live through snow storms.

I have neighbors in their 90's who lived through the depression, using wood to cook and heat their homes in the winters. All cut and split by hand. They used cotton wood for cooking because its hot and makes lots of coals quickly - but its a very difficult wood to split. Unless its frozen. So they'd cut down one of those enormous cottonwoods every winter, saw the 3' diameter trunk by hand into the correct lengths, then split it when the temperature was below freezing, stack it and let it dry/cure for a year.

Now to heat the house, they again cut pine, aspen, pinion, or cedar by hand and hauled it by wagon. 5 - 8 cords.

The year I moved here, I borrowed one of those big hand saws to cut up some of the dead wood on my place - after a week of that, my arms, hands, and back were so sore I had trouble holding a spoon, and I'd cut maybe a cord.

IOW, I think I'd horde gasoline for my chainsaw.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I wonder about stockpiling needed medicines, and lack of hospitals or emergency rooms or access thereto.

Have any of you read Cormac mcCarthy's "The Road"? It is relevant to this thread, in that a family tries to survive in a bleak, cataclysimic landscape, by scrounging, salvaging. It's one of the most depressing books I've ever read, but it does make you stop and think about this sort of scenario.

Friends of my parents had built a backyard bunker with supplies in their back yard in the 50's, out of fear of the Soviet Union. Then, in a storm, a tree crashed on their house and the wife was killed.

Batya, be well.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Cutting, handling ad burning wood is a lot of work, plus the particulate via emissions is very unhealthy.

Once pellet stoves and coal stoves hit the market, most of the people that burned wood exclusively made the switch as cutting trees, dragging them, transporting, cutting them to length, splitting, stacking, moving, loading and tending fires was so much work.

As many of our customers got older, out-of-shape or injured, they didn't like transporting, stacking, moving or loading pellet or coal stoves either, so they used more heating oil, kerosene, propane or electric for heat, hot water, cooking etc.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

"Pnbrown: It isn't the shovel head that is the problem, it is replacing the handles so they can stand up to real use without home deport. And just how many reasonably competent blacksmith are there around?"

I think you are exposing a fair amount of inexperience with that statement. Making anything out of wood isn't a problem so long as one has cutting tools and a way to sharpen them. The cutting tools are where the junk metal and simple forges will be so important. Regarding the smiths, every locality has welders. Welders know about metal and heat, making the transition to a forge is not a stretch.

Regarding burning wood, burning very hot with a tall stack is cleaner than any residential oil-burner. That burn cannot be achieved with a metal stack and/or cheap metal stove. Doomers would be smart to take a course in masonry-stove building.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Doomer nutjobs could care less about emissions.

.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Food is what would take most people out-late winter and early spring is the starving time. When you depend on hunting you will wipe out all the game in an amazingly short period of time-natives kept moving around. Ancient remains almost always show signs of periodic starvation.
PN-the one thing I have done-help build a masonry chimney is the one thing I would never want to do again even if I were 20 years younger-unbelievably heavy caustic work-but oops, do we know how to make mortar from scratch?


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Thu, Nov 15, 12 at 14:11

Darn those permaculture folks, with their mud/straw/adobe houses and domes, food forests, fish ponds which water the gardens with nutrients, solar ovens from found mirrors.............they're taking all the resources!!!!


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

What's odd is the numerous doomer types we've known all have/had the bunker mentality.

They don't have any plans of mobility.

Oddly enough, although most grew up in the rural areas surrounded by lakes, rivers, streams and game, most weren't good at bowhunting, trapping, stream/river fishing, lake fishing, ice fishing etc.

In one family of doomers, none even knew how to swim.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

You are right markjames-they plan for what they see as some sort of attack from their neighbors(their block parties must be fun) and neglect to think about the future.

Well, bless their hearts-they are doomed.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

they plan for what they see as some sort of attack from their neighbors(their block parties must be fun)

LOL!!!


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Yeah, masonry is heavy work, so is preparing growing ground with hand tools. Doesn't have to be done fast, need lots of time.

Indeed, cement is a big deal, making it uses huge amounts of energy. Cement-making capacity in a region is one of the key measures of industrialization. Without, the pioneers laid bought brick or stones in clay, I think, often switching to sticks laid in and covered with clay for the stack. Upkeep was obviously a major issue. One might be tempted to stockpile cement but it doesn't keep well, sadly. The firebox of my masonry stove is falling apart so I guess I should re-do it before Doomsday.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Thu, Nov 15, 12 at 16:42

Darn those permaculture folks, with their mud/straw/adobe houses and domes, food forests, fish ponds which water the gardens with nutrients, solar ovens from found mirrors.............they're taking all the resources!!!!

.... :) You have been on my mind all day, sending thoughts and prayers for your well being. Any chance of "coming to America" ? Please stay safe.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Ohio: "You have been on my mind all day, sending thoughts and prayers for your well being. Any chance of "coming to America" ? Please stay safe."

Yes, me too. I read this news piece, and of course I thought of you--

If you can get out of there for awhile, maybe you should?

"Batya Katar, a resident of Sderot, a community that has been a frequent target of rocket fire, said streets were empty there.

"People won't be outside. The minute they assassinated the Hamas military chief we knew an offensive had begun. We were waiting for it, and it's about time they did it. We have the right to live like other countries in the world.""

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/15/3-dead-after-gaza-rocket-strikes-southern-israel/#ixzz2CLGxc31S


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I'm a prepper.

The National Geo show is generally scorned by the vast majority of preppers because it finds lunatics for their shows. It sells advertising.

Most preppers are average folks who just want to take care of their families should the poop hit the fan.

Personally, I inadvertently came about prepping because I have a severely brain-damaged, disabled husband and a 10yo autistic child. Their care is my responsibility and I take it seriously.

I'm not prepping for any particular calamity. I haven't latched on to any one disaster scenario and obsessed over it. My prepping began out of shear need. I'm a 24/7 shut-in caregiver. Insurance doesn't pay for respite for my husband, we have no family in the area, and, sadly, friends have dropped like flies since my husband's injury. I'm lucky to make it to the grocery store once or twice a month.

But, I DO have:

-About six month's worth of canned, dehydrated, waxed and freeze-dried food and feeding tube formula stored that we regularly eat from, so it gets rotated regularly.

-A seed vault chock full of heirloom veggie and fruit seeds.

-A little portable loo.

-A generator and a stash of fuel.

-Solar lanterns.

-Solar USB iPhone/Kindle recharger.

-Solar shower.

-Solar oven.

-Water filtration that would make ANY water source drinkable that's good for up to 5,000,000 filtrations each.

-Magnesium and flint to start fires.

-Lots of vinegar, salt, bleach, sugar, rice, peanut butter, grains, etc.

-Hand operated grain mill.

-Hand operated food processor to puree my husband's food.

-Vitamins, amino acids, supplements, etc. out the wazoo (that also gets rotated).

-Everything I need to make various soaps.

-Medical supplies that are too numerous to list here. (Did you know that fish antibiotics are the same as those consumed by humans and can be purchased online or from any pet store?)

-Etc., etc., etc.

On the horizon:

-We're in the process of buying a few acres nestled between a river and a National Park (lotsa firewood should we need it!) in the Smokey Mountains of North Carolina. We'll only be a few minutes from churches, hospitals, Walmarts, schools and the various community services we require but remote enough for peace and quiet and sanity and relaxed property restrictions.

-We're building an ICF (Insulated Cement Form) home that is Earth-friendly, relatively tornado safe, and energy efficient.

-In said home we will have a wood cook stove for heat and meal prep.

-I've learned how to make my own solar panels and will utilize those for the bulk of our electricity. Electricity is a MUST HAVE for my husband and to be without it is NOT an option! Even for 5 minutes...

-We'll have well water and a septic system.

-As we're vegetarians, I won't have to hunt for our food. Though we do eat fish. The river will come in handy for that. We'll have goats for milk, cheese and butter and chickens for eggs. We won't want for protein.

I've learned how to make my own human soap, laundry soap, and dish soup. I know how to can, dehydrate, vacuum seal, forage, garden,, fish, make bread, cake, noodles, pasta, biscuits, butter, cheese, and candles, and can properly preserve anything that doesn't move.

-I'll be keeping bees for honey (which also has terrific medicinal applications) and to help out with the crops.

What we don't have:

-Firearms. I could never hurt another human being. If somebody ever gets hungry enough to kill us for our stores... Well, I guess that's how we'll go. LOL!

It's not all about prepping for us, though that's certainly a part of everything. This is a lifestyle choice/necessity for our family too.

Oh! And it's a BLAST!

We want to be more eco-friendly and self-sufficient. But I have to admit, I do sleep a lot better at night knowing that, should the lights ever go out, my family will be well cared for.

Talk about resurrecting and old thread, huh?! LOL!


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I am impressed Kathy. You do all that yourself? By yourself?

I admire your courage as being the sole caretaker of both family members and the prepper enterprise.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Yep, just me, myself and I. It helps to keep me sane. :o)

Since my last post I got to thinking more in-depth about the why's of my choices. I realized that my life had gotten so out of control (I lost 8 very dear people to me in a 7-month period that was topped off by my husband's injury) and our so called "system" has failed us, personally, in more ways than I care to list and it dawned on me that to a great extent I prep because it's something that I CAN control.

I'm finished relying on others and a broken and failing "system" for our well being. I'm not a paranoid but, rather, a realist. Anything could happen and sometimes it does. It did to us. Albeit, in a rather unique way, but it did.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

It is wild to think that while the rest of us are going about our day, the biggest worry on any given Tuesday being what to make for dinner or if the kid did well on a test at school, others are having these types of thoughts and consider the situation they've imagined as dire enough as to warrant preparation. Not to mention the way most of them mention fear of their neighbors. Agreed, Kathy, the people on the show are certainly not average. I feel sorry for them usually, their lives are passing them by.

Many people sit around and wax poetic about going off the grid or whatever terminology they like but few people have made any of the efforts Kathy describes. As a whole, the entry is so amazing, part of me is not sure it's not a spoof. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I say well done!

You make an important distinction between just being basically self-sufficient vs. being so convinced a particular doomsday scenario is at hand that one must prepare. I respect that your husband relies on electrical equipment, so your concern with its' uninterrupted service is appropriate. You don't seem to be deluded that if there would be some type of societal change that your lifestyle would still include the "need" for a giant TV. Nothing wrong with facing reality on your own terms. The ways in which the people on the TV show have parted with reality is what is fascinating and horrifying to me. I'm sure it's possible to make efforts such as yours that are completely disconnected from any type of doomsday fears, just as you claim yours are. The fact that such efforts might be automatically connected to doomsday prepping kind of bothers me. Like it's abnormal or some type of insult to society to want to be off the grid. The initial cost, apathy, confusion, ineptitude, or laziness are hopefully what prevents most from doing more than talking about it. I'd be disappointed to find out people are just more interested in being just like everyone else.

Had you described your situation to me outside the umbrella of this particular discussion, I would never have made the connection between you and that show or the concept of doomsday preppers at all. No need to connect yourself unless you want to. They are afraid and not, IMO, usually prepared for what they imagine happening. You just sound prepared for about anything, and very organized.

This post was edited by purpleinopp on Fri, Dec 28, 12 at 16:37


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

The fact that such efforts might be automatically connected to doomsday prepping kind of bothers me.

Living "off the grid" or sustainably is totally different than doomsday prepping.

One of the first tip-offs that it's doomsday preppers is the phrase or idea that "People are going to come and try to take our food stash"... usually hand in hand with some statement about having to shoot to protect their food.

Although, some don't have guns, but still believe that the end of the world as we know it is coming.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

"Living "off the grid" or sustainably is totally different than doomsday prepping."

Yes, excellent cliff note of what I said.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

No, I wouldn't consider myself a "doomsday" prepper but I'm a prepper nonetheless.

All of this isn't to say that I don't have some rather serious concerns relative to the financial stability of the U.S. and don't think a total financial collapse is out of the realm of possibility. But in the context of my remarks in this thread, I think that that conversation is best left for another discussion.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

Knowing how to do a wide range of what are now considered old-fashioned skills is plain good sense. OTOH, thinking that one can survive without a larger society, in any state other than extreme misery, is madness.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Fri, Dec 28, 12 at 21:31

Knowing how to do a wide range of what are now considered old-fashioned skills is plain good sense. OTOH, thinking that one can survive without a larger society, in any state other than extreme misery, is madness.

....actually I was thinking more along the lines of "community" than a larger society, but I agree that learning and/or retaining a wide range of skills is a good thing. Soap making is definitely a positive, have you ever read the ingredients in a bar of commercial soap??

I do not believe that living alone on a mountain without a community of people would suit me. We had our first winter storm the other day and as usual my little corner of the universe (community) was out helping each other dig out their cars and or pushing those who got stuck on hills, like my son on his way home from work.

Nope have no intention of trying to "go it alone".


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

I agree with Pat. It takes a community, even an "intentional" one, to sustain even a basic lifestyle. One woman, even a young and strong and determined and skilled one, would have a hard time doing all the chores and still serve as caretaker to two other people. If I was to do this, I'd be looking for like-minded people near enough to staff some good old country barn-raising work parties. Problem there is the modern need to social network via the internet or other higher tech comm. system.


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RE: Doomsday preppers are missing the mark?

As for us, we won't be living alone on a mountain without a community of people. We'll be living in a private, gated community of approximately 20 homes that have 2 to 4 acre parcels each and will be about a 15 minute drive from a nice mid-sized town. One of the very things that attracted us the most to this location is the town itself and the a strong sense of community they seem to have there (festivals, various classes, programs, services, the arts, etc.). The schools are awesome with a terrific special needs program. And my husband will be near adequate medical services for his specific needs.

However, it will be quiet, peaceful and outta the live-on-top-of-each-other craziness subdivision we are now in. The fact that it's located by a river and smack next to a State Park is the cherry on top. ;o)


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