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Mental Health insurance expansion

Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 18:56

Mental health and addiction treatment experts praised what they described as a "historic" expansion Friday of insurance coverage for millions of Americans suffering from psychological or substance abuse problems, five years after a law requiring the coverage first passed.

The rule guarantees that health plans' co-payments, limits on visits to providers and deductibles for mental health benefits match those for medical and surgical benefits. It also ensures equal treatment for residential and outpatient care, a long-sought benefit in the mental health community.

The rule could affect 62 million Americans, including about 23 million Americans who meet the criteria for substance abuse disorder, administration officials said.

"For way too long, the health care system has openly discriminated against Americans with behavioral health problems," Sebelius told reporters on a call after the announcement.

The new rule implements the 2008 Paul Wellstone and Pete Domenici Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act.

Obamacare even better now?

Here is a link that might be useful: More info here


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

About time


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Will for sure this is one initiative out of the ACA conservatives can get support . They have been demanding this very thing ever since Sandy Hook.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Substance Abuse?

We have to pay for crackheads?


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Surprise, demi!

President Bush signed the Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act into law. It was attached to the bailout package Bush signed in early October 2008.

No doubt the animas will still be aimed toward the ACA for bringing it to light.

Here is a link that might be useful: Equal treatment


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

As a society with general moral obligation, it would be the right thing to help those who have mental, psychological, or addiction problems... and we should keep in mind that any of these issues can, and do, afflict those in every class of our society, and in every walk of life.

It shouldn't make a difference if the addiction is to alcohol, a legal substance, other substances that are legal but abused... or to any illegal substance. An addiction is an addiction, and it would be so much more beneficial to our society as a whole to rehabilitate rather than simply house in prisons, where the victim is held and then released right back into the same problematic environment.

Again... "Whatsoever you do unto the least of my brothers, that you do unto me." ...a message I remember well from my days in parochial school, and am free to use in reference to any issue it seems apropos to.

It seems there are way too many citizens out there, on their own, with regard to all these problems, including PTSD in its various forms, who would greatly benefit... as would the society they wander through and are part of... if this were part and parcel of the ACA.


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It makes a difference to me whether it's due to a self indulgent addiction or not.


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An addiction...it is an uncontrollable habit. If one could control it, it wouldn't be an addiction, now would it?


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Posted by marigene E/Ctrl Kansas (My Page) on
Sat, Nov 9, 13 at 13:06

An addiction...it is an uncontrollable habit. If one could control it, it wouldn't be an addiction, now would it?

*

Very few behavior labeled addictions are true addictions.

If someone held a shotgun to the head of a run of the mill pedophile "addicted" to children sexually and that stopped the from doing the deed, then they're not truly addicted.

If someone held a shotgun to the head of a crack user and said they'd blow their brains out if they smoked it, they're not truly addicted.

There's a difference between a true, can't help it no matter what addiction and an indulgent habit that has become so indulgent it is misnamed an addiction.


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Or I suppose some would see a difference if it's a self indulgent starlet checking into Betty Ford to satisfy a court order (worthy) vs. a hapless throwaway surviving on the streets and trying to avoid jail time by checking into a store front counseling center (unworthy).

Ammi right?


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"Whatsoever you do unto the least of my brothers, that you do unto me." ...a message I remember well from my days in parochial school, and am free to use in reference to any issue it seems apropos to."

Except the mentally ill do not have to accept what health professionals may want to "do unto them" and many have an extreme aversion to getting anywhere near mental health professionals, government institutions or treatments.

The notion that people with mental illness and a distorted view of reality will now seek mental health treatment is incredibly simplistic and uninformed.

The mentally ill are sick, but that doesn't make them stupid.

Do you really believe that putting their records online and making them accessible to prying eyes at government institutions including the IRS, as well as hackers trying to steal every scrap of personal information they can get their hands on will encourage the mentally ill to come forward and seek help under obamacare??? Think about it.


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There is a certain self indulgence in the Manic depressive-having lived with one. The seeking of the release of the depressive cycle was instructive. There is a syndrome of being what is called 'the gate keeper' where you manage the Manic Depressive's moods so that you must allow them the 'indulgence' of hitting bottom from time to time( in a controlled manner) because you get a honeymoon period afterward. You clamp down on the Manic moods because they lead to the depressed mood-it is obviously chemical and also obviously a serious mental problem but if the M/D enjoys these massive swings then we should just leave them to it? Wash our hands because part of the sickness is the enjoyment of the chemical release of the crying jag?

Why would any rational person turn to drug use for recreation with all the evidence of debility and destruction around them? Is that evidence enough of a serious problem with that person? Humanity would dictate helping that person if not enlightened self interest since jailing the drug abuser is really expensive.


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*Inspite of the moronic/provocative response. Medicine not opinion decides what is a treatable illness/condition disorder & what isn't.

Williams v. Widnall the court flatly stated, without discussion, that alcoholism “is a covered disability.”

Anyone abstaining form drugs or alcohol in treatment for these conditions are covered under the ADA.

To mock, berate, ridicule those with disabilities is moronic!
We have been through this discussion numerous times & it's been clear that there are posters on this forum who are recovering with these disabilities!
Disorders, conditions

This post was edited by labrea on Sat, Nov 9, 13 at 17:56


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So, wonder how many times insurance will cover rehab? Many people go several times and still don't recover. Wonder how that'll work.


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From the OP at the very top of the thread.

The rule guarantees that health plans' co-payments, limits on visits to providers and deductibles for mental health benefits match those for medical and surgical benefits. It also ensures equal treatment for residential and outpatient care, a long-sought benefit in the mental health community.

It would be spelled out in each plan and probably different from insurer to insurer. The guarantee is that mental health treatment will be equal to medical and surgical benefits in your plan.

Some people are in therapy of one kind or another virtually their entire lives.
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If there are no catastrophic caps on medical and surgical benefits under ACA and the benefits for mental health must match those for medical and surgical benefits, then wouldn't it stand to reason that there are no catastrophic caps on treatment for mental health including rehab? If so, then someone can go to rehab over and over and over. Maybe I'm missing something. If I am please show me a source that says otherwise. Thanks!


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This is the only thing I could find relative to your question in a cursory search.

From the article which is linked:

"While the ACA (in conjunction with the mental health parity legislation) includes coverage for the treatment of both mental and substance abuse disorders at equal levels to treatment for physical concerns, limits can and still are placed on such treatments. The limits are more lax than they were perhaps under the older system, but people still do not have access to “unlimited” psychotherapy treatments. Insurance companies still require therapists to obtain authorization for additional treatments after a certain number of sessions has been reached (which varies from insurance company to company)."

Here is a link that might be useful: Mental health expansion


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If someone held a shotgun to the head of a run of the mill pedophile "addicted" to children sexually and that stopped the from doing the deed, then they're not truly addicted.

If someone held a shotgun to the head of a crack user and said they'd blow their brains out if they smoked it, they're not truly addicted.

Again with the examples of actions classified as torture!

What makes a person spontaneously offer these examples which are condemned in most of the world?

The diagnosis of addiction comes from a doctor, not from a lay person making up definitions on the fly, and willing to resort to torture to prove a point.


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Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on
Sat, Nov 9, 13 at 20:38

If someone held a shotgun to the head of a run of the mill pedophile "addicted" to children sexually and that stopped the from doing the deed, then they're not truly addicted.

If someone held a shotgun to the head of a crack user and said they'd blow their brains out if they smoked it, they're not truly addicted.

Again with the examples of actions classified as torture!

What makes a person spontaneously offer these examples which are condemned in most of the world?

The diagnosis of addiction comes from a doctor, not from a lay person making up definitions on the fly, and willing to resort to torture to prove a point.

*

What happened to you Nancy?
You didn't used to misrepresent people and points.

Isn't it enough that you state an opinion--or copy and paste someone else's-- instead of misrepresenting mine and tsk tsking about the misrepresentation?


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Demi, the examples you offered above -- and not for the first time -- are classic examples of torture. Chile's Pinochet and the junta in Argentina during the Dirty War were accused of torture and gross violation human rights when they did the same actions as you propose above. The U.S. was condemned for similar acts at Abu Ghraib.

Your proposed "tests" to prove addiction are pure sadism.


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You didn't used to misrepresent people and points.

I have previously objected to your endorsement of torture / sadism. Please see this thread.

Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on Fri, Jan 18, 13 at 10:26

Same scenario with alcoholics and drug users.
Hold a shotgun to the heads of their children and ask them if they will take a drink or snort cocaine or smoke dope.

Interesting choice of an example.

When the military juntas in Chile and Argentina used the same technique to obtain information from political prisoners it was univerally condemned as an abuse of human rights.

Again, interesting choice for an example.

Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on Fri, Jan 18, 13 at 10:46

There's nothing interesting about it

I found it quite revealing.

Thank you.


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Duluth, Thank you! I'm glad you could figure out my question. I sure did a poor job of asking it.

Yes, I wanted to know what limits were placed on treatment. I do find it interesting that several posters here have posted comments saying something to the effect that treatment won't be limited by insurance companies or government. I can't believe that there will be no limits.


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Glad to help. Here's some more snipped from here & there around the internet... one will have to check their individual insurance plan handbook for individual impact and limitations. I don't see it as a limitless free-for-all.

The parity law applies to all group health insurance plans for more than 50 employees that provide mental health or substance use disorder benefits as part of the plan. MHPAEA does not apply to smaller group health plans or to Medicare. State and local government employee plans may opt out of the federal parity law, though few of these plans have done so. Importantly, plans for 50 or fewer employees are subject to the requirements of state mental health parity laws.

Q. Does MHPAEA require my health plan to provide mental health benefits?

A. MHPAEA does not require private health insurance plans to include mental health benefits. Even so, nearly all employer-sponsored health plans in the United States include these important benefits.

Q. Is my employer likely to stop providing mental health benefits as a result of MHPAEA?

A. Employers are very unlikely to do so. The Kaiser Family Foundation's 2010 survey of health coverage found that less than 2 percent of firms with more than 50 employees - those to which MHPAEA applies - dropped mental health insurance coverage because of the federal law.


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Underinsured or uninsured Veterans will have better access to Mental Health Care locally!


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I have asthma. I will always have asthma. Sometimes it is worse and I require intensive treatment and other times it is not triggered and I don't. My health insurance doesn't limit the number of times I am allowed treatment for a flare-up of asthma. Why should it limit treatment of flare-up of mental disease? I accept that a person with mental disease is suffering from a disease. Because it is not something that responds to surgery or simple treatments are people with mental disorders on their own or limited to the number of times they can be sick? To think that they should shows your prejudice against people with mental disorders. If I refuse treatment for my asthma it can get worse and be even more costly to fix when I do break down and go for treatment-so it goes for some one with mental disease-oh well. Why am I so much more special than some one with a mental disease?


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Asthma can kill you in a matter of a few minutes. It's different.


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A mental health breakdown can kill you in a matter of minutes. It's called suicide. And sometimes it takes other people with you (murder-suicide).


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I am very pleased that mental health treatment will now be covered under contemporary insurance plans. A population with access to care of all kinds is healthier not only for the person involved but for the persons around that person. Though my own experiences with people who are mentally ill is hardly an adequate sample, I have personally benefited when those people have received treatment, including rehab, for their illnesses/addictions.

I don't see this issue as an abstraction, but as concrete reality.


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Chase and others in Canada, how does the Canadian health care cover things like drug rehab? Do you get unlimited treatments or are you cut off after either a dollar amount or number of days or a number of stays at a rehab facility? Is drug rehab coverage different than coverage for the treatment of other mental diseases?


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In the US, there are limits and they are annual limits....at least that was the case between 1986 and 1997.

I believe in the US there are still annual limits but they are more stringent than they were in the 1980s and 1990s.

From hazelden's website:
Insurance coverage for addiction treatment
At Hazelden, the final cost of treatment is determined by the level of care required and the
length of a person's stay. We offer a variety of treatment options within our national network
of care and there are several factors which affect price between our facilities, including regional cost of living factors, professional staffing, and unique programs, services and facilities.
Which insurance companies cover the cost of addiction treatment?
Insurance coverage depends on the individual's situation. Hazelden is an in-network provider for some insurance carriers but out-of-network benefits may also be used to help cover the cost of treatment. Some services may be covered under mental health benefits; while some may limit coverage to outpatient services.
Insurance for addiction treatment can be complex and our experienced staff is skilled in working with all types of insurance providers to access the maximum benefits available. A financial counselor is assigned to each case and works with the client to determine a viable financial plan. With permission, they will even check with the client's insurance company about coverage. Hazelden's financial staff are experts at gaining maximum insurance coverage and working with families to identify financial sources. We encourage people to go through this process even if they think they do not have insurance benefits.
Visit our Locations map to learn about the specific in-network providers at each of our facilities within our nationwide system of care.
Is it true that "scholarships" are available?
As a nonprofit organization, Hazelden does have some funds available to help support the cost of a person's treatment if it is financially necessary. These funds, when available, are sometimes used to help offset part of the cost of treatment. We will always recommend that admission candidates work through our financial counselors to determine what sort of package might cover their treatment. Hazelden's financial staff are experts at gaining maximum insurance coverage and working with families to identify financial sources.
For more information about the guidelines and determination of eligibility, read our full Patient Aid Policy.


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"Asthma can kill you in a matter of a few minutes. It's different."

As a long term asthmatic & a long term recovering person dead is dead no matter how yah get there.

2 beers and pitching down a flight of stairs after being sober 10 years (dead) Knew someone having JUST a couple of drinks and committing suicide after long term recovery (not unheard of)
A slip in recovery parlance is generally the long end of a slide that started before the drink or drug ever got picked up) (there could have been a concurrent manic burst, depression, any of a series of significant often unobserved symptoms of other mental states that appeared before the substance or alcohol was used.

For years mental health professionals have recognized that a great segment of drug addicts & alcoholics are using thee substances as a form of self medication.
It's not a cognitive decision a drink to take the edge off (what was someone else saw as an edge a trained professional might have recognized as symptomatic of another condition and might have proscribed an appropriate medication.

For years I used a rescue inhaler proscribed by my primary care doctor. I finally saw a pulmonary specialist who told me the rescue inhaler was good for rescue but was hardly treating the underlying continually inflamed bronchial passages.
That the inhalers were stimulating my adrenal glands that the rescue inhalers were life saving but in my case in the long run an inappropriate treatment.
Just like a rehab is a rescues a long term treatment might uncover concurrent depression & other conditions that the addict was masking with alcohol or drugs (in effectively treating with alcohol and drugs)
I can't tell you how many stories in meetings start with my family always gave me a HOT Toddy when I had a cold

,


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Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on
Sat, Nov 9, 13 at 20:59

You didn't used to misrepresent people and points.

I have previously objected to your endorsement of torture / sadism. Please see this thread.

Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on Fri, Jan 18, 13 at 10:26

Same scenario with alcoholics and drug users.
Hold a shotgun to the heads of their children and ask them if they will take a drink or snort cocaine or smoke dope.

Interesting choice of an example.

When the military juntas in Chile and Argentina used the same technique to obtain information from political prisoners it was univerally condemned as an abuse of human rights.

Again, interesting choice for an example.

Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on Fri, Jan 18, 13 at 10:46

There's nothing interesting about it

I found it quite revealing.

Thank you.

*

Nancy I never proposed to conduct the test on "addicts."

You know full well I was illustrating a point, and it was correct.

That point is that when someone can control their behavior when their well being is threatened, I do not believe it to be an addiction.

To suggest that I condone or would commit torture is ridiculous--that is what I find different about you.

You used to wouldn't have wasted your time with such nonsense.

Careful all that chasing yourself around a tree and you might turn into butter for pancakes!

This post was edited by demifloyd on Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 9:02


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"I have asthma. I will always have asthma. Sometimes it is worse and I require intensive treatment and other times it is not triggered and I don't. My health insurance doesn't limit the number of times I am allowed treatment for a flare-up of asthma. Why should it limit treatment of flare-up of mental disease?"

That's a perfect example, Patriciae. If we're going to classify something as a disease or medical problem... and both asthma and addiction are... then we can't really limit the treatments if or when needed.

Well, said, Joe...


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demi, unless you are a medically trained person or one well-versed in the literature and practices concerning what addiction is and how to treat it, what you "believe" is not neccessarily the case. I'm not getting into the gun to the head/torture discussion, I am just saying that those who deal with and treat addicts of all kinds know a lot more about this issue than you do.


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Posted by pidge z6PA (My Page) on
Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 9:17

demi, unless you are a medically trained person or one well-versed in the literature and practices concerning what addiction is and how to treat it, what you "believe" is not neccessarily the case. I'm not getting into the gun to the head/torture discussion, I am just saying that those who deal with and treat addicts of all kinds know a lot more about this issue than you do.

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I do not disagree with you.

That is my opinion and I am not alone.

Some people unnecessarily complicate some issues in order to justify their angst and indulgent behavior, often in an effort to mitigate personal responsibility for that behavior. Also, to gain attention and sympathy.

I believe that the term is often misused in this sense.

Also, consider the MONEY that is made from people and their addictions, with coddling and explanations of why their addiction is being perpetuated--years of counseling and behavior modification, and still repeated behavior.

It's a scam in some situations.

Of course, not all, and I know there are true addicts and know they require behavior modification and someone to talk to to understand why they are addicted and treatment, etc. etc. etc.

Just not everyone that is treated, in my opinion.

Look at the Hollywood "addicts."

If all of these people were in a prison camp would they still be addicts or would they manage to get along without their drugs and alcohol and sexual activities? You think they might just manage to do what they're supposed to do to stay alive in such a situation rather than meet with their 12 step group each week and talk about what mommy and daddy did to them?

Okay Nancy you can now accuse me of wanting addicts to go to prison camps!

PS What "I" think is what this forum is about.

You want to keep posts to doctors and scientists go to a different board Labrea.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 10:10


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Pidge generally in these discussions the "I think'" has been far more important than medicine, science or law.


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I find it curious that so many people are suspect of the motivations of business to scam people and make money from them, but let a doctor, lawyer or scientist tell someone they're a victim or an addict or their behavior is not their fault and it's Written In Stone From On High no questions asked.

Pretty convenient for those who practice destructive and indulgent behavior and pretty lucrative for the doctors, social workers and society, as well as the addicts who get a pass at personal responsibility quite often.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 10:20


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(I'd suggest getting help but this kind of condition is seamless in it's own belief system)


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I don't need help and haven't let my life or anyone else's life be adversely affected by indulgent behavior.


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Recognized by US statute,, by international medicine by psychiatry & Insurance.
What do you get (the above responses)

Same responses that they have alway been.
A mind set that insists that it's terminology supersedes general international ;standard terms & in more than one field
Insurance, Medicine & Law
(is'nt that a layman's definition of grandiosity)


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What "I" think is what this forum is about.

"I think" does not translate into credible opinions. Some "think" that gays can be "converted" to heterosexuals, despite what the science and psychological community maintains.

I understand that new research and discoveries in science and medicine are challenging some popular conceptions in comprehending the human mind and body; it takes time for popular opinion to be changed by the new knowledge. Then there are some who will filter out that which contradicts their belief system.

There is already a stigma / taboo regarding mental health in the U.S. Advancing opinions not supported by, or contradicted by the medical and science community can do harm in discouraging treatment for those in need.


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I don't need help and haven't let my life or anyone else's life be adversely affected by indulgent behavior.

The question is how much is behaviour due to personal virtue and how much is due to a roll of the genetic and chemical dice.


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Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on
Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 10:59

I don't need help and haven't let my life or anyone else's life be adversely affected by indulgent behavior.

The question is how much is behaviour due to personal virtue and how much is due to a roll of the genetic and chemical dice.

*

To an extent, yes.

Not entirely and not in all cases IN MY OPINION.


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Well if you can tell the knife from the wound chemistry & (virtue?) you get Willy Wonka's golden ticket!

A buddy's wife is refusing to take her bi polar meds right now because (she thinks everyone else is just too too bothered by her behavior)
Shes been hospitalized 3 times in the last 12 months & if you even point to any of that as evidentiary she blows a gasket or engages in her own rationals.
To an outsider she looks like a wise assed party girl but when shes on the other side of it shes a good mom & wife..
So who is she a dirty filthy libertine who just needs to buck up (some of her family see & say that) or someone who has attempted to kill themselves on several occasions when they are of their meds
Do we let the Demi's or her likes decide or a professional! She doesn't trust any of them & tries to manage her own condition with diet & exercise)
She also fought a huge battle to keep her kids from being inoculated. Curiously enough she doesn't drink or use drugs but when shes manic she seeks out those crowds to party with.
This has digressed so far from the original topic but what else is new!


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Let's correct that statement:

Not entirely and not in all cases IN MY OPINION as a lay person with no expertise in either science, medicine, or psychology, etc.


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"Oh, wad some power the giftie gie us to see oursels as others see us."


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The thesis I see has more to do with a perceived worthiness... than any necessity to treat the whole as equally needing of deserved and desired care in these areas, and thus include the necessary treatments as part of the overall health care law, placing everyone under the same umbrella.

Both addiction and mental health carry stigmas... some more than others... and some to more people than others.


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Just an FYI Hazelden that was mentioned earlier is one of the earliest largest treatment facilities in this Country.
It's a non profit Foundation!
They are not out their scamming folks for quack cures for non existent conditions. They merged with the Betty Ford Center recently!


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And actually, this forum is more about looking at the facts, and debating those facts and the opinions we have about them... what we think and believe and our experiences only add or detract, depending on the debate. In the end, the facts are what really matter.


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In the end, facts are hard to establish. We all see the world through our own particular lenses, and we decide what is fact or fancy according to those perspectives. Some see mental health insurance as a scam, some see it as a benefit to the mentaly ill. Neither of those "opinions" is a fact.

I always think that if a discussion was held in good faith, one in which participants actually listen to other people's opinions and are willing to question their own opinions in light of perspectives other than their own, we might come up with some kind of "fact" at the end. But I don't count on it. We are grounded in our own "facts" as we see the world. I am as immured in this reality as anyone else.


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It is and always will be hard for conservative thinkers to come to grips with advances in knowledge because to be conservative by definition is to be wary of the new. A belief that you have lived your productive life because you personally have not given in to temptations and indulged yourself in questionable behavior is going to be hard to give up when medical science tells you that the people you have judged harshly for their failings are in fact ill. We moral people know we are supposed to be supportive of ailing people.
I am reminded of the convolutions people would go through to show that some loved one got AIDS from a blood transfusion thereby separating that person from the disgusting sorts who got it from sex or shared needles. In those days we only felt for moral people with AIDS. I personally prefer to separate myself from the moral majority and do not care to judge, weigh, or ask how a person becomes mired in the very real disease of addiction. It is to my mind very much beside the point. I am not a Christian though and maybe if I were I would feel differently.


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When I check the the final call for the day for the Dow those are numeric facts that determine the health of my Retirement investments. I work with those facts towards an outcome.
When I visit my Psychiatrist and permit him to prescribe for me it's based on my delegating responsibility in direct proportion to to his accepted standing as a practitioner of Medicine with Mental Health as A Speciality.
The Psychiatrist I see "coincidentally" works with Recovering Populations in 2 Different Facilities.
His private practice is open to all and is not listed as specializing in Addictions & Recovery Medicine.

When he writes diagnostic notes for the insurance companies these (opinions/diagnosis are accepted as facts in determining their payment for his services) Were he to prescribe inappropriately those would be salient facts in a malpractice suit.


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The lack of compassion from some on this board often takes my breath away. Compassionate conservative? Compassionate Christian? Amazing, just amazing.


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Posted by jodik 5 (My Page) on
Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 14:38

And actually, this forum is more about looking at the facts, and debating those facts and the opinions we have about them

*

No it's not.

From THE TOP OF THE PAGE OF THE FORUM:

Hot Topics

"If you have an opinion on today's current events or other hot topics, feel free to discuss it here."


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Really ? You think it's mentally healthy people committing crimes resulting in all the costs involved ?

You think the lack of mental and physical health care does not have anything to do with those that become desperate enough to try self medicating, that can then over power their common sense regarding the use of illegal drugs ?

This paper does a good job of considering many of the angles, so give it a read before you decide treating substance abuse and mental illness costs too much.

Here is a link that might be useful: A Cure for Crime? Psycho-Pharmaceuticals and Crime Trends


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Welcome to the forum, plaidbird!


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and while we're at it....

"Children are suffering from a hidden epidemic of child abuse and neglect. Every year more than 3 million reports of child abuse are made in the United States involving more than 6 million children (a report can include multiple children). The United States has among the worst records among industrialized nations �" losing on average between four and seven children every day to child abuse and neglect."

"One-third to two-thirds of child maltreatment cases involve substance use to some degree.
In one study, children whose parents abuse alcohol and other drugs were three times more likely to be abused and more than four times more likely to be neglected than children from non-abusing families.
As many as two-thirds of the people in treatment for drug abuse reported being abused or neglected as children.
More than a third of adolescents with a report of abuse or neglect will have a substance use disorder before their 18th birthday, three times as likely as those without a report of abuse or neglect."

"14% of all men in prison and 36% of women in prison in the USA were abused as children, about twice the frequency seen in the general population. 7
Children who experience child abuse & neglect are about 9 times more likely to become involved in criminal activity. "

"Abused children are 25% more likely to experience teen pregnancy. 5
Abused teens are more likely to engage in sexual risk taking, putting them at greater risk for STDs"

"A report of child abuse is made every ten seconds
More than four children die every day as a result of child abuse.
It is estimated that between 50-60% of child fatalities due to maltreatment are not recorded as such on death certificates.

Approximately 80% of children that die from abuse are under the age of 4.
More than 90% of juvenile sexual abuse victims know their perpetrator in some way.

Child abuse occurs at every socioeconomic level, across ethnic and cultural lines, within all religions and at all levels of education.

About 30% of abused and neglected children will later abuse their own children, continuing the horrible cycle of abuse.
In at least one study, about 80% of 21 year olds that were abused as children met criteria for at least one psychological disorder.

The estimated annual cost of child abuse and neglect in the United States for 2008 is $124 billion.

IMHO, seems much cheaper to treat the problem where it starts, the abuser. Mentally healthy people do not abuse their children.

Here is a link that might be useful: National Child Abuse Statistics


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Thanks Esh.
Hot topics ? Ha.. the heat's blowing out the top of my head after reading some comments here in this thread.

So hey, if they want selfish, they can be selfish and still save themselves a LOT of money by educating themselves and learning treatment WILL save them money. BIG money.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Plaidbird, thank you for your contributions.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Mentally healthy people do not abuse their children.

Here, here! Once you accept that mental illness is truly an illness, it only makes sense to treat it like one.


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You know full well I was illustrating a point, and it was correct.

I am still stunned that anyone use examples that involve actions that are internationally recognized as torture. If torture were needed to prove an assertion, as in the examples, I question who is in greater need of mental health services -- the addict or the person who considers torture a handy verifier.

Following the logic of the assertion, would constant threats of violence and/or death be necessary to cure an addicition -- because that's the next step in this sadistic progression.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Turns out I'm not done.

Then there's ADHD/ ADD. Sometimes over diagnosed and too often under diagnosed.

"ADHD among prisoners is a problem, not only for the offenders with ADHD but also for their victims who were misused violently and nonviolently. Evidence suggests that the diagnosis and treatment of ADHD could have an impact on crime rates. In 2009, the National Bureau of Economic Research[4] sought an explanation for a decline in violent crimes starting in the 1990s; they hypothesized that there was a relationship between the increase in prescribing of newer-generation antidepressants for depression (such as bupropion) and also in the prescribing of stimulants for ADHD."

"Studies show that at least 25% of prisoners in the United States have ADHD. The recidivism rate among all felons is high, and an estimated two thirds are rearrested within about 3 years.[3] These statistics have important implications for society at large"

This does a fairly good job of explaining how ADHD factors into the persons life, and the domino effect that can happen.
Includes a couple good, easy to view charts of statistics with a slight scroll down.

Here is a link that might be useful: ADHD and Crime: Considering the Connections


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

More details, charts with $ values included.Charts. Includes ADD as well as ADHD. Links at bottom of the paper with further resources.

"The evidence presented above leads to a clear conclusion: persons with symptoms of ADHD during the period 5�"12 years of age, whether they be of the hyperactivity, inattentive or combined type, are far more likely to report criminal activities as young adults than other individuals.

This clear pattern prevails even while other factors that might be expected to influence risk taking are taken into account; these factors include individual characteristics such as gender, race/ethnicity, education of parents, family income, type of family in which raised, and community characteristics such as poverty and income, race/ethnicity, income inequality, the unemployment rate and crime rates.

These results are also consistent with the expectations of economic models of crime: persons with ADHD have lower labor market expectations and so are more likely to commit a crime than our other otherwise similar adolescents and young adults."

Still think it's cheaper to ignore these folks ?

Here is a link that might be useful: Long-term Consequences of Childhood ADHD on Criminal Activities


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pidge: "I am very pleased that mental health treatment will now be covered under contemporary insurance plans."

I was unaware that a good (comprehensive) health care insurance policy would not cover mental/substance abuse health concerns. For those that didn't have it; good news ;-)

This was a good discussion until personal tirades started against demi for having a different pov. I personally don't agree with the way demi's statements about the difference between "blameless" and "irresponsible" (my words) substance abusers should be viewed, but that's okay. Why the violent rejection of a different pov? Is this the old "if you don't speak up, you have tacitly agreed?" If so, fine; speak up.

It's the vicious mud-slinging that's the total bummer here. And it ain't demi slinging same. The reactions of some here makes me wonder about their need to avail themselves of some of these mental health services and/or cut back on the substance abuse.


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Yes, welcome, Plaidbird... and reiterating Nancy's thoughts, thanks for posting such good information and statistics.

It's unfortunate that our law enforcement and prison system seeks not to rehabilitate or help the core cause of repeat offenses that end in more time behind bars without any rehabilitation.

It makes perfect sense that those persons unable to obtain the help they need seek to help themselves through self medication, often leading to addiction problems... which often leads to arrest and imprisonment... and the cycle continues... much like the cycle of abuse.

It is exponentially more cost effective to include mental health and addiction treatments within easily accessible, affordable health care for all.


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Thank you, plaidbird, for bringing useful and concrete knowledge to this discussion instead of proposing torture as a solution to addiction or mental illness. No addict I have ever known--and I have known quite a few--has ever responded to threats of bodily harm, including being shot in the head, as a detriment to their addictions. No one I have ever known who is mentally ill has ever achieved better healh through threats of any kind.

I cannot get tthis image of someone following an addict around all day and night with a gun to the addict's head out of my mind. That is just too weird. Imagine the poor soul who had to wield the gun and risk the charge of murder. Who is being punished here?


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I guess you really have to have known someone with a serious addiction or mental health issues to know that they already have a gun to their head. Oft time addiction is as a result of some underlying mental health issues.

I personally think that it's wrong to have the financial coverage for illness of any type be a commodity that one buys and sells for profit.

There is something that is fundamentally wrong with that model.


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I would agree, Pidge... tough love is one thing, perhaps with a visit to a morgue for effect, or an end to any enabling even though you feel bad for the family member or friend who has the addiction... but torture?

Proper and professional treatment sounds so much more effective.


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Good Grief I am beginning to think that comprehension of a point is lost on some of you people.

Under no condition have I advocated putting a gun to anyone's head, my point is that IF that were done, there are people that would NOT exhibit certain behavior and therefore they are not truly addicted.

The habit of wading in a shallow pool keeps one thinking like the kiddies.


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Welcome plaidbird! I too thank you for your contributions.

And I know what you mean by this:
Hot topics ? Ha.. the heat's blowing out the top of my head after reading some comments here in this thread.

The lack of compassion of some for their fellow human being is very stunning. And sad.

The same people claim to be fiscally conservative yet they are not willing to take the path that will ultimately cost less. In my opinion, they would rather disparage entire groups of people so they can feel superior than help their fellow man. Unless they deem that fellow man worthy.


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IF that were done

And my point is why is that example -- clearly a condemned practice as a gross violation of human rights -- even used as an example? If such a drastic measure is the only means by which addiction could be truly determined -- and only for that moment in extremis -- then that definition of addiction is worthless, besides not being based on medical or scientific evidence.

my point is that IF that were done, there are people that would NOT exhibit certain behavior and therefore they are not truly addicted.

It's as if there were not dozens of threads in HT citing intelligence experts who confirm that torture does not produce reliable evidence of anything except an answer that will stop the torture.

Any actions taken under threat of torture are not evidence of anything, nor proof of anything. To state otherwise is to wilfully ignore yet another body of evidence under the cover of "I think."

The comments claiming endorsing a hypothetical case of torture recalls the final panel in yesterday's Dilbert: Ignorance is not an opinion.


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Keep flogging that dead horse of yours that never got of the gate, Nancy.

I have better things to do than argue with someone that has no argument and only an agenda against conservatives.

And, in response to this jewel of yours:

"The comments claiming endorsing a hypothetical case of torture recalls the final panel in yesterday's Dilbert: Ignorance is not an opinion."

I am not ignorant and neither is my opinion.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 9:33


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Threats of physical violence may produce some immediate result , I don't know as I have no professional expertise that would permit me to make such a statement.

However, having an addict for a brother I can tell you that these types of "therapies" will do nothing to cure the addiction. Absolutely nothing...these people are sick, truly and deeply sick.

Maybe some confuse addiction with use of drugs , even extensive use...........big difference.


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Keep flogging that dead horse

I'm refuting your assertion that a threat involving a violation of human rights -- hypothetically speaking, as you claim -- would be a reliable predictor of who is 'realy addicted.' It would not, as many intelligence experts have denounced torture as producing nothing except what the victim thinks will stop the threats.

So my comments stand: your hypothetical example to confirm addiction is worthless.

I see that you cannot refute the above, and so wish to dismiss my comments without acknowledging that your assertion is based on an erroneous assumption.


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Nancy, your opinion or the opinion of anyone else that a hypothetical would or not would prove whether someone is an addict is worth as much as mine.

There is no erroneous assumption

You however, seem to be under the erroneous assumption that I care what you think about my opinion.

Have a great day flogging nags.


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Demi, I rely on real-world evidence to form my opinions.

There is a body of evidence that torture and threats of torture do not produce reliable evidence,

I also see real world evidence that the claims of not caring are not matched by actions; one repeatedly claims that something is unimportant, yet returns again and again to respond to that which is claimed to be unimportant, and adds more comments on that which is unimportant.

Again, real world evidence.


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Thank you Plaidbird!


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

I hope that the expanded coverage helps people that really need it and haven't been able to access that help.

And I also hope that the number of people that will be flocking to get "mental health" treatment because of their lack of personal responsibility and those that for not good reason indulgently choose to spend their lives consumed with their state of mind in life instead of living it doesn't cost us so much the people that truly need help don't get it or are delayed.


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Not to worry they can always post someone at the door of the clinic with a gun......


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I guess you really have to have known someone with a serious addiction or mental health issues to know that they already have a gun to their head. Oft time addiction is as a result of some underlying mental health issues.

Perfectly stated, Chase. Except that I'd amend that to: Oft time Always addiction is a result of some underlying mental health issues.

"Moral" issues are irrelevant in a discussion of mental health treatment. Full stop. Addiction is just the outlying symptom of mental imbalance - whether just functionally neurotic or full-blown schizophrenic. Addiction requires mental health treatment to overcome, all the more so because addiction, as clarified so well by others above, is nothing more than the attempt at self-medication of untreated issues.

And it's a damned good thing that more coverage of this treatment will be provided under the new regulations. Those of us with family members understand all too well the extra constraints of budget on top of all the other problems we handle in getting our loved ones into appropriate treatment.

Not to mention our police force, who have been slowly and undeservedly transformed into the first line of mental health triage in our society. They too will benefit greatly from actually having options other than temporary incarceration open to them when encountering the mentally ill in public scenarios.


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treatment because of their lack of personal responsibility and those that for not good reason indulgently choose to spend their lives consumed with their state of mind in life instead of living it

That's for the medical profession to decide; they have the expertise and experience to make the diagnosis and recommendd treatment. Behaviour which a lay person claims is merely "lack of personal responsibility" can be a symptom of more serious disorder.


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 10:20

Long overdue and much needed, especially for the NRA.


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Circus, not sure I totally agree with your "edit" ;)

I am not an expert in the field but I think that many people become addicted at a very young age , not becasue of a mental illness , but because of the situation they find themselves in. I'm thinking of very poor inner city kids as one example.

In this case I believe they become addicted as a result of routine "using" just like everyone else does including Mommy and Daddy......drugs are part of their life.

I believe these addicts are every bit as worthy of medical care as the mentally ill addicts are but I don't think mental illness is the root cause of their addiction...at least it wasn't when they became addicted.


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"I think" does not translate into credible opinions."

It's a qualifier. Offer an opinion, and for some, it starts a process.

Some will simply agree, because they've made up their minds and are not open to examining their beliefs. Others cut and paste what someone else wrote, and offer those works in "support" of their "opinions." Still others may have actual training, experience or education that informs their agreement or disagreement with a particular opinion.

This is an opinion forum, not a professional opinion forum. Everybody gets to weigh in and everybody has their own take on the "credibility" of the opinions offered.

Today Americans are victims of obamacare, which was constructed by an army of "professionals." If enough Americans had relied on their own common sense instead of promises and laughable "math" (Save $2,500 a year!) they could have saved themselves endless heartache, they would still have insurance they like, and they would be better able to afford it than they are now.

Anyone who has been on this forum since obamacare was imposed on America knows the left never questioned the "credibility" of the professionals, the studies, the president or the politicians. The right simply said "This sounds too good to be true. You can insure more people and save money." And they were exactly right.


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Pidge, you may remember that Flannery O'Connor's dark humor included one character recommending that a little ol' southern lady who was deep into denial about reality could be forced to face up to reality if someone were to hold a gun to her head every day of her life.

(The character recommending this drastic solution was a "misfit" serial killer who actually had been holding a gun to the head of the little ol' southern lady--whom he did shoot. See "A Good Man Is Hard to Find").

Maybe this drastic solution is an example of southern hyperbole/morbid humor--which is why you are not supposed to take it literally?

I don't mean to detract from the serious discussion above and I certainly agree that when it comes to addictions, the gun solution would work only until you turned your back for a split second!)

For those who think the south is being maligned, Flannery O'Connor was a famous and important southern writer from Georgia. If you don't like her portrait of the south, blame her--not me! That scene in her short story is quite memorable and popped immediately to my mind when I read some of the above posts.

Kate


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Nik, you are ignoring the many calls from the left and center for a single-payer solution -- both then and now.


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Kate, I had forgotten "A Good Man Is Hard to Find," a tale that is both funny and grim. O'Connor had her finger on the South's pulse like few other writers of her time and place.


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Americans are victims of obamacare

nik, you forgot to add the "I think" qualifier as that is your opinion.

There are some people that clearly benefiting from ACA and do not consider themselves victims.


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What does being Southern have to do with denial? What?! Uh. Wrong. As wrong as sterotyping addicts as those with a will power problem. It's all sickening!


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Since it's veterans day!
This is from the NIH

Health Behavior Survey reveals general reductions over time in tobacco use and illicit drug use, it reported increases in other areas, such as prescription drug abuse and heavy alcohol use. In fact, prescription drug abuse doubled among U.S. military personnel from 2002 to 2005 and almost tripled between 2005 and 2008.

Alcohol abuse is the most prevalent problem and one which poses a significant health risk. A study of Army soldiers screened 3 to 4 months after returning from deployment to Iraq showed that 27 percent met criteria for alcohol abuse and were at increased risk for related harmful behaviors (e.g., drinking and driving, using illicit drugs). And although soldiers frequently report alcohol concerns, few are referred to alcohol treatment. Research findings highlight the need to improve screening and access to care for alcohol-related problems among service members returning from combat deployments.

Mental illness among military personnel is also a major concern. In another study of returning soldiers, clinicians identified 20 percent of active and 42 percent of reserve component soldiers as requiring mental health treatment. Drug or alcohol use frequently accompanies mental health problems and was involved in 30 percent of the Army's suicide deaths from 2003 to 2009 and in more than 45 percent of non-fatal suicide attempts from 2005 to 2009.

Once again you can treat an addiction in a detox a couple of days. What more does the person need except to get the substance out of their system.

You simply treated a symptom of multiple problems!

In terms of I Thin I don't have to think about "coronary ischemia"
there are copious notes studies & professionals who have written on the subject. There may be addition information over time regarding causes & secondary conditions associated with it but it is a given.
We don't need to reinvent the wheel ever time someone comes up with an "I Think" particularly in relation to basic definitions.
Coddling this kind of behavior has become a national pastime!


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  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 12:39

First of all people who need mental health services do not "flock" to treatment centers ... in fact there is such a stigma on mental illness in this country that many people who could benefit from it do not seek it out and those who are in dire need will be the first to tell you "they don't need it" (like Joe's friend's wife).

I do have to shake my head at some responses to a very real problem in this country, but unfortunately not the least surprised.


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"Maybe some confuse addiction with use of drugs , even extensive use...........big difference."

Thank you, Chase... and one could interpret that in two ways, as I see it. The occasional social drinker isn't an addict, nor is the occasional user of many differing substances.

And then...

In the medical world, we call it dependence, and it's often a necessary evil of managing one's health. Much like the diabetic who depends upon insulin, other kinds of patients depend upon other types of medications. And as we all know, it's a fact of medical science that certain medicines do come with the risk of dependence.

However... equating that to the subject at hand, as some try to, is disingenuous.

Circuspeanut aptly said, ""Moral" issues are irrelevant in a discussion of mental health treatment."

Just as they are when we discuss treatment for addicts.

In both cases, treatment is the key... and it shouldn't be handed out only to those seen as somehow deserving by those riding high horses of morality, an attitude that when applied is surely detrimental to success of treatments.

As Joe says, you can't just treat the main symptom of the problems. That's not a cure. It's an ongoing process, I believe.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Flannery O'Connor was writing out of her experience as a Southern woman. Her works of fiction are well respected all over the world. Artists write about what they see and understand, and they create characters who represent the world as it is rather than as we would like it to be. O'Connor created a woman who represents a particular world view with which O'Connor was familiar in her venue. It's as wrong to criticize O'Connor for writing about what she saw and knew as it would be to criticize Fitzgerald for writing about the excesses and cruelties of the Jazz Age or Morrison writing about the ugliness of racism and its impact on the men and women who endure it. Did Faulkner falsify his world? Did Upton Sinclair? Does Alice Munro?

If you want sugar-coating, stick to Dick and Jane or romance novels.

Edited to say that I began this post by addressing Rob, but I've edited her name out because I really mean it to be about the role of the artist in our culture. Sorry, Rob, to have put you on the spot.

This post was edited by pidge on Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 15:42


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Regarding dependence versus abuse.
If you were alcohol dependent rather than a mere abuser or heavy drinker you would know it if you stopped all of a sudden. The homeostasis will have been disrupted.
The central nervous system goes into a hyper state of excitability. Neurotoxicity can occur here.
There will be shaking, headache, sweating, anxiety, nausea or vomiting. At 24 hours seizures may commence coupled with hallucinations. and breaks with reality. Fever & Blood pressure spikes (this may persist for days)

If the person has been through it before the symptoms may be more extreme with each successive detox from the dependent state. This is called kindling. (this is not a universally accepted term)
There is a considerable amount of cell death in the brain during this process.

This will eventually lead to a condition Called Korsakoff Syndrome (wet brain) over time.

When Amy Winehouse father said she died from alcohol withdrawal he was probably right.

The person in this video is in a coma as a result of alcohol withdrawal. (while not typical it dose occur)

The main inhibitory neurotransmitter is γ-amino-butyric acid (GABA), which acts through the GABA-alpha (GABA-A) neuroreceptor. One of the major excitatory neurotransmitters is glutamate, which acts through the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) neuroreceptor.

Alcohol enhances the effect of GABA on GABA-A neuroreceptors, resulting in decreased overall brain excitability. Chronic exposure to alcohol results in a compensatory decrease of GABA-A neuroreceptor response to GABA, evidenced by increasing tolerance of the effects of alcohol.

Unless a medical professional or psychiatrist is made aware of what is going on a wrong diagnosis can happen here. If the person hasn't ingested alcohol for the last 24 hours there may be no obvious telltale odors & their symptoms may resemble a psychotic break or the use of some kind of psychoactive substance..

Years ago one of the Administrators of a NYC Hospital Substance abuse program wound up in that Hospitals psychiatric ward. She held off for 2 days of severe withdrawal before being discovered by a friend and was admitted with undiagnosed psychosis. Who could imagine that she was functioning at such a high level for so long and alcohol dependent at the same time. It was only when she reached day 4 that she was able to be coherent enough to tell doctors that it was alcohol withdrawal. The presenting symptoms mimicked other conditions.
These are extreme conditions but they occur in the dependent alcoholic.

. I'm of course concerned for substance abuse recovery but equally important is the underserved PTSD population.

Here is a link that might be useful: coma

This post was edited by labrea on Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 23:24


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No telling how many people are addicted and functioning and more than to substances--some behaviors.

Law enforcement training and cirriculum required we know what substances caused addiction and why, caused withdrawal symtoms and could cause death and we were trained to recognize and understand the situations.

The popular drugs of choice come and go but alcohol is constant.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

I suspect alcohol is a constant because it is legal (21 and over). Illegal drugs require a bit more work.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Law enforcement will be able to tell the difference from benzodiazepine withdrawal & alcohol withdrawal.
Not with out blood work and even then.

Demyelination is a hallmark of central pontine myelinolysis (CPM). Neuropsychiatric manifestations of this condition include weakness, quadriplegia, pseudobulbar palsy, mood changes, psychosis, and cognitive disturbances. These psychiatric symptoms are also associated with schizophrenia and alcohol withdrawal. Thus, it is clinically relevant to differentiate between CPM, schizophrenia, and alcohol withdrawal as the treatment and prognostic outcomes for each diagnosis are distinct. We present a series of events that led to a misdiagnosis of a patient admitted to the medical emergency center presenting with confusion, psychomotor agitation, and delirium who was first diagnosed with schizophrenia and alcohol withdrawal by emergency medical physicians and later discovered by the psychiatric consult team to have CPM. With a thorough psychiatric evaluation, a review of the laboratory results first showing mild hyponatremia (127 mmol/L), subsequent hypernatremia (154 mmol/L), and magnetic resonance brain imaging, psychiatrists concluded that CPM was the primary diagnosis underlying the observed neuropsychopathology. This patient has mild impairments in mood, cognition, and motor skills that remain 12 months after her emergency-center admission. This case report reminds emergency clinicians that abnormal sodium metabolism can have long-term and devastating psychopathological and neurological consequences. Differentiating between CPM, schizophrenia, and alcohol withdrawal using neuroimaging techniques and preventing the risks for CPM using slow sodium correction are paramount.

Law enforcement gets how many hour training in this?
(I already know what an expert certification requires)

We could have folks go to them rather than Psychiatrists or therapists!

This post was edited by labrea on Tue, Nov 12, 13 at 9:42


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

"Law enforcement gets how many hour training in this?"

Unfortunately, though, these are the usual respondents when persons are found wandering around city streets, high or unintelligible, or located half comatose in an alley, or any one of a thousand other scenarios.

And where are they usually taken? If they're lucky, to a hospital... if they're not so lucky, to county lockup.

And what I find to be a bit of a letdown in LE training is how outdated propaganda still rules, and the automatic response is to group every drug and symptom together... marijuana included in the same context as any narcotic or other hard drug...

But we've slipped away from the actual OP... which is including accessible treatment and long term rehabilitation as a necessary part of health care.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Law enforcement personnel do not need to distinguish the differences that substances have in blood chemistry

Pretty much what is needed is to recognize an addict and it is sometimes helpful to know what the substance likely is to prevent the addict from dying, hurting themselves or hurting others when law enforcement is needed to intervene.

Getting losers off the streets when laws ate broken or lives jeopardized is their job not becoming experts on substance abuse.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

40 to 60 hrs for expert certification (and that has what to do with providing relief help treatment under expanded health care)
Apples oranges & flight decks!


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

I very much question the fact that any law enforcement officers get the type of education required to identify an addict vs some one with mental illness.

Maybe they did years ago but today there is a serious gap, one that is recognized by law enforcement themselves.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

today there is a serious gap, one that is recognized by law enforcement themselves.

This is the case in Los Angeles -- city and county.

Los Angeles County jail has become the largest mental health institution in the area due to cuts in social services, and mental health programs. Law enforcement is in no way adequately trained to deal with this situation, nor does it have the resources to address the problem. With the feds investigating the L.A. County Sheriff's Department and abuse of prisoners at county jail, the situation will continue deteriorate as the department and sheriff are in full damage control mode.


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"Getting losers off the streets when laws ate broken or lives jeopardized is their job not becoming experts on substance abuse. "

This is the problem for me-the loser label. Why this label?


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I was just wondering the angle an expansion of mental health to (I might know what drugs your on or if your having seizures form alcohol withdrawal)
My buddy Tony D has the same certification having been an EMT worker it's helpful in doing a work up for admitting but beyond that co morbidity factors can always be present.
I'm thinking that the expansion will also be helpful with diagnosing & treating postpartum depression in underserved populations.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

I agree, patriciae--the "losers" label took me aback, too.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Well, let me put myself on the shun list and proffer that anyone who isn't demi must be a "loser".


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The label is a problem for me, too, Patriciae...

That "loser" might turn out to be someone's parent or sibling with a mental disorder who just happens to have gotten lost... or commits a petty crime or becomes combatant because of a break in medication schedule.

I wonder how people would feel if the tables were turned, or social norms were reversed... how would some people feel being called a loser, and having the other side of society scoff and look down their noses because of something those people had no control over?

The outpouring of empathy just overwhelms me sometimes... I say, oozing sarcasm.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

While it is not a particularly kind label, it is accurate in my estimation in describing people that ruin their lives and the lives of others by indulging themselves in drink and illicit drugs to the point of addiction that is disruptive.

What in fact is NOT KIND, is indulging in drink and illicit drugs to the point that it disrupts one's life and negatively affects the lives of friends, family and society and causes cost to society.


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Post removed.

This post was edited by pidge on Tue, Nov 12, 13 at 17:33


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Considering the number of mentally ill people that are arrested, "loser" does seem an odd description. Not to mention that it's unlikely that every person arrested is a "loser" -- whatever that word may mean.


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Anyone who thinks that demi will "own" her descriptor has got a long wait.


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I did not say mentally ill people were losers.

Just some addicts--and not all addicts.

SO now we're clear, which I shouldn't have to do if you people didn't misrepresent what I say and extrapolate.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

I see no qualifiers in the following statement:

Getting losers off the streets when laws ate broken or lives jeopardized is their job not becoming experts on substance abuse.

The above statement was made while the discussion centered on how it was possible to tell the difference between an addict and someone who is mentally ill, and the likelihood that a person may be both.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Some addicts are losers and some addicts are not losers? How do you diffrentiate, demi?

Are you a doctor of any kind? Do you have any credentials to support whatever defintion of a "loser" that you come up with?


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Posted by pidge z6PA (My Page) on
Tue, Nov 12, 13 at 19:03

Some addicts are losers and some addicts are not losers? How do you diffrentiate, demi?

Are you a doctor of any kind? Do you have any credentials to support whatever defintion of a "loser" that you come up with?

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Since when did doctors have the exclusive right to label someone a "loser?"

That's a subjective definition as far as I'm concerned, and when posting my definition is the only one that matters.

Now, as to

Posted by pidge z6PA (My Page) on
Tue, Nov 12, 13 at 17:35

"Anyone who thinks that demi will "own" her descriptor has got a long wait."

--Pidge, if you want to make posts about what you or others think about me and what I think about what you think about me and whether or not I will respond to what you and others think about me or how you describe me me I suggest you start a thread.

Or better yet, get a life.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Psycho social Calvinism the elect & the unsaved or plain old narcissism.
A grandiose sense of the ability to dictate (globally accepted terms even in the face of continued rejection of those terms) coupled with a lack of empathy.
Usually when it's engaged on that level the precipitate that follows is indifference or anger.
AA is full of them!
In case anyone hasn't noticed we are no longer discussing the topic. I

Same poster same antics!

This post was edited by labrea on Tue, Nov 12, 13 at 19:20


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Same poster same antics!

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Same name calling and personal comments, same response.

Tolerance isn't the game of many here, and calling it like you see it isn't, either, if it doesn't toe the touchy feely victim line.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

"What in fact is NOT KIND, is indulging in drink and illicit drugs to the point that it disrupts one's life and negatively affects the lives of friends, family and society and causes cost to society."

That statement got me thinking. I've never known an addict who was not incredibly selfish. IMO addiction to anything can be a problem if it affects others adversely. It's hard to know where to draw a line and stop trying to help someone, anyone, no matter how dear, who clearly doesn't believe there's a problem. That's difficult enough, let alone feeling real empathy for people one doesn't personally know. Actually that's probably easier; one can be analytical and even all benevolent-like.

I have no answer.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

That statement got me thinking. I've never known an addict who was not incredibly selfish

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Ding ding ding. Yep.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

I see it as a question of opinions offered, based on little knowledge, that contradict medical, scientific, and psychological studies, and best practices. I fear that someone would actually believe these ill-informed opinions, act upon them, and suffer further harm.

Mental health, addiction, dependency and co-dependency are complex subjects that cannot be reduced to a one-answer-fits-all response. The most appropriate response would be along the lines of "It's complicated, and varied, depending on the individual and circumstances."


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Reminds me, has anyone heard about the successful use (in studies) of anti-convulsants to bring heroin and alcohol addictions under control? Supposedly doesn't totally stop cravings, but brings them way way down.

Sounds promising.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

You're right, Nancy, and I have enough personal experience to shake my head in disbelief when I read some of the opinions posted here and passed off as reality. Every case is different, every person must negotiate their addiction in an individual way, every resolution is for that person only, and any recovery is always ongoing.

That the AHCA is expanding coverage for mental health is commendable. Coverage for rehab centers is slender indeed under most health insurance policies, and the addict/alcoholic's family is often faced with getting such minimal benefits--such as only a week or two in rehab--that they must live on tenterhooks as the course of treatment unfolds. It's hardly a wonder that so many folks relapse and a minor miracle that as many stay in recovery as do.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Genes - scientists say there are specific genetic factors which may make some people more likely to become addicted to alcohol, as well as other substances. People who have a family history of addiction are at higher risk for abusing alcohol. Alcoholics are six times more likely than nonalcoholic to have blood relatives who are alcohol dependent. Researchers from the Universidad de Granada, Spain, revealed that "the lack of endorphin is hereditary, and thus that there is a genetic predisposition to become addicted to alcohol".

Depression - people with depression may deliberately or unwittingly use alcohol as a means of self-treatment. On the other hand, a statistical modeling study suggested that alcohol abuse may lead to depression risk, rather than vice versa.

How the body processes (metabolizes) alcohol - people who need comparatively more alcohol to achieve an effect have a higher risk of eventually having an alcohol problem, a study carried out by researchers at the University of California, San Diego, found.

Of the 12-20 year olds who said they had drunk alcohol during the previous four weeks, 8.7% had bought it themselves.

Underage drinking in the USA is common - 26.6% of Americans under the legal age for alcohol consumption are drinking, a new report issued by SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services) informed in a new report.

We used to have a sort of gimmick when speaking to non recovering people.
If you have a significant family member Mother Father Brother Uncle Aunt or Grandparent that has had an alcohol problem you may want to consider not drinking.
I You have more than 2 family members who had problems with alcohol you should not drink. (Pause)
Then ask how many people were made slightly uncomfortable or moderately uncomfortable by the recommendation.
Would you be equally uncomfortable if the item we recommended was broccoli?
We asked those people to consider their own attitudes about the place of alcohol in their life.

Resistance to treatment is a common feature of alcoholism & and occurs in many emotional disorders.
Resistance is a symptom and cannot be regarded as mere willfulness. One only has to consider anorexia!


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Very wise words, labrea. You certainly know of what you speak. Thanks.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Joe, I would think the alcohol issue a rather double edged sword, so to speak, depressant that it is... and yet legal, and often used to cover or relieve depression... a conundrum, really. Though, some people may not think of it as a depressant.


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

"nik, you forgot to add the "I think" qualifier as that is your opinion."

Hahahaha! Your "correction" is priceless. Check out the "opinions" below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Meet the


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

It does many things. It's effects in the chemistry of the frontal lobes works on impulse controls.

Here the chemistry of it!

"Two neurotransmitters, gamma-amino butyric acid (GABA) and dopamine are responsible for the loss of impulse control in those who consume alcohol. Dopamine causes an excitatory response at dopamine receptors in the frontal lobes (7). Alcohol increases the amount of dopamine acting on receptors and enhances the normal feeling of pleasure associated with the dopamine system (7). Alcohol may function like cigarette smoke to inhibit the action of enzyme monoamine oxidase, the enzyme responsible for breaking down dopamine in the synaptic cleft (7). Since dopamine is not broken down as efficiently when ethanol is present, it can act on the post-synaptic neuron for a longer period of time. The feeling of pleasure will be increased and the individual will want to keep drinking to maintain the sensation. Individuals want to continue to experience the feelings caused by dopamine, so they continue to consume alcohol. The response of ordering another drink when one is already visibly intoxicated can be explained by the pleasurable effect that an increased alcohol concentration has on the brain.

Alcohol also enhances the effects of the neurotransmitter GABA on GABA receptors in the prefrontal cortex (4). GABA neurotransmitters inhibit the release of other neurotransmitters from post-synaptic neurons. Ethanol co-binds with GABA neurotransmitters to GABA receptors on chloride ion channels (6). Ethanol causes the prolonged opening of the chloride ion channels and the greater uptake of chloride ions by the post-synaptic cell. The presence of chloride ions hyperpolarizes the post-synaptic neuron so it cannot conduct an action potential and initiate a response to stimulus (6). Since the post-synaptic neuron cannot release a signal, the ability of the neurons in the frontal lobes to inhibit socially unacceptable behavior is reduced. Decision-making is also impaired and the impulsive, uncontrolled behavior of intoxicated individuals results. Dr. Richard Olsen conducted research on specific GABA receptors. GABA receptors with beta-3-detla subunits remain open for an extended period of time when exposed to low levels of alcohol (1). This particular subunit probably has a higher affinity for the binding of ethanol. GABA receptors Dr. Olsen studied respond to much lower levels than GABA receptors with gamma-2 subunits and nervous system control over behavior can be altered after one drink (1). The varying binding site shapes of GABA receptors may explain the progressive loss of control that alcohol causes. Some receptors respond to lower levels of ethanol and as alcohol concentrations increase more GABA receptors are affected. The loss of inhibitions results because the post-synaptic neurons are progressively less able to conduct an action potential and illicit a response.

The effect of alcohol on the GABA and dopamine systems causes the loss of control that can be observed when individuals drink. Through excitatory and inhibitory synapses, the actions of certain neurotransmitters alter the behavior of an intoxicated individual. Further study of the specific binding of ethanol to receptors may lead to treatment of intoxicated individuals. Also, studying the effects of alcohol will lead to a greater understanding of the role GABA and dopamine neurotransmitters play in altering observable human behavior. ."


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RE: Mental Health insurance expansion

Found this today... surely it fits in somehow... as in WHY it's so important we include certain things through insurance...

"Just get rid of it ��" simple, right?

The portion Copeland and Barton zeroed in on is “be guiltless before the Lord,” completely glossing over the fact that this was context-specific to the Hebrews of ancient Israel. Extrapolating rather poorly, they conclude that this passage ought to preclude any soldier suffering from PTSD. Copeland had this to say to any veteran unlucky enough to be watching this drivel:

“You listen to me,” Copeland said, addressing the camera, “you get rid of that right now. You don’t take drugs to get rid of it, it doesn’t take psychology; that promise right there will get rid of it.”

Barton couldn’t agree fast enough, pointing out that members of what he calls the “faith hall of fame” were warriors that killed a lot of people. A LOT of people. But, since they did so “in the just name of God” it was totally okay. Because when you do things God’s way you are completely guiltless, even esteemed. So say the “experts.”"

Lots more at the link...

Here is a link that might be useful: Just Get Rid of IT...


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