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Deregulate poverty

Posted by david52 z5CO (My Page) on
Thu, Nov 15, 12 at 20:14

snip -" I am talking about the ways that the government of the state, the counties, and the cities oppress the poor by making the traditional ways that poor people made a living illegal in many cases, or so highly regulated that you have to have money in order to get started in the first place. The concept of bootstrapping your way into better circumstances is pretty much against the law these days in Oklahoma.

Let us count the ways that this is true.

1. In Oklahoma it is illegal to sell along public right of ways (sidewalks, roads, rest stops on the highways and toll roads, etc.) Where legal, such high prices are charged for licenses and they usually incorporate such bizarre regulatory requirements that they make street vending illegal. If this kind of free enterprise were legalized, we would end up with a non-stop flea market from one end of the state to the other along our freeways and toll roads. Food trucks would be everywhere, offering tasty Oklahoma foods to travelers. It would give people reasons to stop and spend money in Oklahoma and provide ways for Oklahomans to start their own micro-enterprises that could grow, with time and effort, into full-time employment.

2. It's illegal to practice small scale itinerant trades without "proper licenses" which often have expensive prerequisites so that they function as barriers to market entry rather than protections for the public. These are trades like hair braiding, hair cutting, applying make-up, carpentry, plumbing, etc. The proliferation of coercive credentialing in general raises political barriers to finding and doing work and lowers compensation.

3. In many municipalities it is illegal for people to practice trades out of their houses.

4. City ordinances limit the number of garage sales people can have at their homes and restrict the ability to open a small sales or hospitality operation in a home. This doesn't show much respect for private property, does it? Shouldn't conservatives support the rights of homeowners to use and profit from their properties?

5. Laws forbid people from making non-hazardous foods (like jams, pickles, and baked goods) at home and selling them to the public. Many states are passing cottage food industry laws that allow people to make and sell these kinds of foods in their home kitchens.

6. Poor people who own cars can't drive people around and charge for the service. It would be illegal to use a van to establish a jitney service (a type of transit, common elsewhere, where a van or small bus drives a route that deviates around the route to pick up fares dispatched from a central location). Transportation has serious political barriers to market entry. We have this bizarre idea that only the government can do mass transportation. To prove that, we have enacted so many state and local laws on the subject that yes, in Oklahoma, it is practically illegal to start a private transportation company that drives people around for cash money. snip " end quote

quite a bit more at the link. food for thought, anyway....

Here is a link that might be useful: link


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Deregulate poverty

Hey, I thought all laws and regulations were for the good of everyone.

Should poor people be exempt from running safe and environmentally sound businesses?


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RE: Deregulate poverty

I realize that regulations are necessary it is hard to say they are unjust. Some were put on the books so long ago they are really obsolete. Maybe it is time to take another look.

My township does not permit you to dry your cloths outside. Imagine my surprise when I received a warning letter from the code enforcement officer. I grew up with bedding dried outside. Loved the smell of fresh sheets dried by the sunlight. I get underwear should not be flapping in the wind but sheets. Goodness....Everything has go in the dryer.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

On the Venice boardwalk there's contention between the merchants that rent space for their shops and those craftspersons selling their wares off blankets along the western border of promenade. I don't see how an individual's rather meagre offerings are competition for the shops with cheap (and not so cheap), imported crud piled up to the ceilings.

There's also a problem with the LAPD requesting to see permits of street vendors in neighborhoods of Central Americans and Mexicans. Food trucks (which do have permits) are despised by nearby established restaurants and cafes. (At one time there was a proposed law to limit the time a food truck could be parked in one spot.) It's not unusual to see a small pickup making its rounds selling fresh fruit for much less than market prices. Garage sales galore every weekend.

The underground economy flourishes in spite of regulations.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

It's illegal to practice small scale itinerant trades without "proper licenses" which often have expensive prerequisites so that they function as barriers to market entry rather than protections for the public. These are trades like hair braiding, hair cutting, applying make-up, carpentry, plumbing, etc. The proliferation of coercive credentialing in general raises political barriers to finding and doing work and lowers compensation.

When some areas first started requiring licensed plumbers and licensed electricians to perform work, prices for many services just about doubled overnight.

Much of the work in the past was performed by unlicensed tradesmen, handymen, side jobbers, electricians/plumbers/HVAC/R helpers/trainees, homeowners etc.

Because much of the work was performed by unlicensed workers in the past, most of it was performed without plans, permits, inspections and insurance, plus many codes were violated.

Many of these workers worked for cash, so they weren't paying income taxes either.

Requirements for licenses, plans, permits, variances, inspections, insurance etc exist for the safety of consumers.

Unfortunately many of these things that keep people safe prevent many from entering the market.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 16, 12 at 18:03

>I get underwear should not be flapping in the wind<

Avoid gassy foods.

Must be some kind of "there goes the neighborhood" rule, like they have in HOA neighborhoods.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

There's a rather large and noticeable difference between ridiculous and necessary/common sense when it comes to regulations. I guess some folks don't know that, or can't tell the difference.

The shallow, self centered, condescending, materialistic, greed ridden, gluttonous segments of our population will do anything and everything to keep those considered beneath them, the commoners, the peasants, from actually grasping that last ladder rung by which to pull themselves up, yet they prattle on non-stop about personal responsibility and bootstraps.

Imagine that...


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Many of those regulations make sense in some situations and make absolutely no sense in others.

We have lived on a cul de sac in suburbia twice. In one instance, a neighbor opened up a hair dressing salon. She employed another person to work there. Due to the shape of the the cul de sac and lots, there was very limited places for her customers to park without blocking a driveway or someone's mail box. Our mailman legally refused to deliver the mail if he had to get out of his truck. There were times where I had to go to the salon to ask someone to move their car so I could get out of my driveway. I can't imagine what kind of a mess there would have been if I decided to open a tax office next door. A home based business where clients do not come to the home might be ok, but one where clients are in and out during the day and early evening does not belong in a neighborhood because of the negative impact it has on others living in the neighborhood.

I agree with limiting garage/yard sales, too, in a neighborhood in the suburbs. We now live on a cul de sac. One of our neighbors has a yard sale about every other weenend. They are two day affairs, sometimes three days. I have no idea where they get the stuff they sell. Those weekends traffic and parking create problems for the residents of the cul de sac. We've had people park in our driveway preventing us from leaving. We've had people dump their car ash tray and leave the remains of their fast food lunch in our yard. They let their dogs in our yard and don't bother to clean up after them. The neighbors can't screen the people who come to purchase things at the yard sale. I have no problem with someone having a yard sale. I just wish they weren't as frequent.

Sorry, but I believe there is some logic behind some of those laws in many places - not to stop entreprenuers but stop those activities from having a negative impact on the neighbors and property values.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Jhug I do not know how you did not lose your temper. That would never happen around here.

bboy
Avoid gassy foods.

Yes LOL

It is not a HOA. Someone had to turn me in for violation I am sure. It was 30 yrs ago. I have brought several houses since then but that was my first experience in this area. Fines are high. first Offence Warning and 100 plus 25 per day for second Offence.

They have grass levels not higher than not lower than etc. I know this one old Enforcer is not finding all these broken little laws. Mostly it is neighbor reported. One neighbor was cited for one of those loud gong Wind chimes. I hate those things too. But sheets should permitted. JMO


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Hard to believe that a township could or would outlaw hung laundry. They'd have to pry my wife's cold dead finger from the clothes-pins (actually she'd be thrilled if it were outlawed here). That is an example of intrusive regulation, IMO, whereas restricting high-traffic businesses in residential areas is reasonable.

This is a timely thread because I was thinking about setting up a self-serve veggie stand on my road, which is "private", or on the main road nearby which is State-controlled. Someone told me today that such stands are allowed if the majority of the produce is grown on the abutting property.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

I agree with the message of the OP.

Here's another snippet:

"How about a little old fashioned, free enterprise, as a strategy to counter both the hard times facing the nation and our own problems with poverty here at home. There's a reason why we have so much poverty in Oklahoma. It's the way our system is designed to work."

This is why I support the Institute for Justice, which has gone to bat for people in various parts of the country and has earned victories against municipalities that create barriers to free trade with such tactics as requiring a license to braid hair, requiring a funeral director license in order to build and sell caskets, or licensing interior decorators.

Frivolous licensing requirements, usually borne of politics and backroom deals, are nothing more than an institutionalized program to protect those already in business. Often, licensing boards are composed of the very same people who are already in business and want to protect their businesses.

If you live or do business in an area zoned for commercial activities, there is no reason why many types of start-up businesses should face such contrived obstacles.

The latest targets: food trucks in Cook County, Illinois are not allowed to park within 200 feet of a restaurant, supermarket, convenience store, or gas station. If, after all that, there are still places available for them to park and conduct business, they have to install a GPS device in their vehicles so authorities can be sure they are not parking where they shouldn't. If they park where they should not, they will get a bill for $2,000.

This is effectively cutting them out of the market and doesn't even try to cover up the fact that the law exists to protect other food vendors from competition. Plus, it requires the food truck owners to provide the means for government to accuse them of wrongdoing. That one's going through to the courts soon. A similar law in El Paso, Texas, was quickly shot down.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Lionheart, I've lived and worked in Cook County, IL for most of the last 35 years and have bought food from food truck vendors during almost all of that time. Could you please be specific as to what your problems are with the pending lawsuit? I'm especially interested in what specifically you think is frivilous about the Cook County regulations. Thanks in advance if you choose to respond.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Many neighborhoods used to have homeowners or tenants with yard, porch or garage sales from spring to fall, so they stopped this type of activity as well as lead-in and lawn signs.

I used to have a neighbor next to my rental property that opened up a hair salon. She only had parking for 3 cars including hers, plus it's a dead end street with one side parking, so her customers were constantly parking illegally in my tenants parking spots, or blocking traffic.

To add insult to injury, the tenants on the other side of the street were running an illegal daycare business, so their customers were constantly parking and idling in my parking area, plus the kids were constantly trespassing, or playing around tenants vehicles.

They were both shut down.

Like anything else, a few ruin for the masses.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

'Institute for Justice' sounds like one of those (many) Libertarian law organizations that I just love to hate. Take for example the Food Trucks.. Do they (Food Trucks) provide bathrooms, a place to wash your hands- a place for them to wash their hands? ...I've personally have heard of employees pissing in bottles and then throwing it out on the grass.

Do they provide heat in Winter or A.C. in summer or a clean place for you to sit, or trash clean up? Generally NO. Some run gas powered generators creating noise and pollution. What if you get food poisoning? Many of these trucks do a lot of the prep work at their homes- does the Health Department inspect their homes for vermin?

And then the restaurant pays rent, and mind you, the rent goes up with the desirability of the location; pays the phone,the gas, the electric the trash, the fat removal etc and tries to keep their employees employed. It's a tough business.

Imagine paying rent and providing other comforts and considerations and then having a Food Truck park on the sidewalk stealing customers. So I say boo! to the Institute of Justice and their ilk. Libertarian is just a nice word for crackpot. I could go on and on.. Recently I read an article by Chris Christie in one of the Libertarian rags- The "Cato Letters" and I just had to laugh. These people are fools.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

I take it you think pissing in bottles is somehow worse than pissing in an open porcelain bowl?


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RE: Deregulate poverty

$200.00

That's the amount a worker can earn in most Ohio municipalities without being registered with city hall.

That legislation came about because so many seasonal workers were working trades and not reporting the incomes.

Examples. All cash businesses that pay no taxes. We're all about increasing taxes, right?

Teachers painting during summer recess.
Concrete workers doing interior home improvements during winter.
Landscapers snowplowing.
Plumbers and Electricians work for cash too.
Union members work undercover for side job cash.

There is a dog walker/sitter in my area and the rumor is she earns over $50,000 cash per year, tax free. That's not hard to believe. It only takes $24 per hour X 2,080 hours (typical) to earn it.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

"'Institute for Justice' sounds like one of those (many) Libertarian law organizations that I just love to hate. Take for example the Food Trucks.. Do they (Food Trucks) provide bathrooms, a place to wash your hands- a place for them to wash their hands? ...I've personally have heard of employees pissing in bottles and then throwing it out on the grass."

Yes, they are Libertarian, which is why I like them. They are anti-authoritarian and like it when other people have opportunities and choices. They don't believe that brick and mortar restaurants have ownership of customers.

Food trucks are carry-away types of food service, just like the local ice cream stand with window service only, or the ice cream trucks that travel residential neighborhoods, or even drive-thru type windows at food places like Starbucks or other fast food restaurants.

What about caterers who prepare food at other locations and bring them in trucks to whatever event is occurring?

I don't know if food trucks have toilets or not. Probably not, but it's pretty easy to find bathrooms for the people working on the truck. All you have to do is purchase something from a store and use their public restrooms, or work out an agreement with a store owner. Problem solved.

Considering the cheap waterless hand sanitizers that are around and, for workers, add in plastic gloves for handling food, it renders the point a bit moot.

If you witness any food vendor "pissing in a bottle" you should report them to the Health Department immediately. There are lots of brick and mortar restaurants where people also do things that you don't want to know about. They are just harder to witness behind closed doors. However, you sometimes read about them in the newspapers when they are caught.

Restaurants have the edge in that, if people want to sit down and have a meal, they can do that. Or, if the want to have a drink with their meal they can only do so at restaurants. That's how restaurants compete.

Food truck vendors pay for their food, equipment, Health Department licenses, liability insurance, and they pay taxes. They probably pay a lot in gasoline taxes alone. Food trucks are usually started and run by people who are not wealthy but think they have a good product to sell, although some restaurants are now running food trucks to get their product out to more people. The start up costs are lower than a restaurant, so you don't have to have megabucks to start your business.

Some successful food truck businesses eventually open their own brick and mortar food service.

"Do they provide heat in Winter or A.C. in summer or a clean place for you to sit, or trash clean up? Generally NO."

No, they don't have heat and AC, but neither does the local ice cream stand nor the drive-thru nor the little place in NYC that sold coffee through a small window in the back of a building. They have to clean up their own trash and customers are responsible for disposing of their trash properly, just like in real life outside of restaurants and food trucks.

"Some run gas powered generators creating noise and pollution."

Some restaurants, particularly barbecue style joints, spew smoke out of cookers. Many restaurants use methane or propane as their fuel source. What if the gas leaks or there's an explosion? Some restaurants are pretty raucous on Friday and Saturday nights; you can't hear yourself think.

"What if you get food poisoning? Many of these trucks do a lot of the prep work at their homes- does the Health Department inspect their homes for vermin?"

What if you get food poisoning at a restaurant? The county health department here publishes inspection results on the web. Some of the citations would make your skin crawl, especially from some of those "respectable" restaurants.

The reason why food trucks do the prep work at home is because ordinances say that they can't prepare food on the truck and they *must* prepare food in a non-mobile kitchen. This means preparing food at home or renting a kitchen from a restaurant or other establishment.

Nonetheless, they have to be licensed by the health department and are subject to inspections, just like restaurants or hole-in-the-wall coffee shops.

"Imagine paying rent and providing other comforts and considerations and then having a Food Truck park on the sidewalk stealing customers."

So you are talking about amenities that you like and that food trucks don't provide them. A choice - don't patronize things that you don't like, but don't limit other people's choices and business opportunities because they don't provide optional services that you like. It's all about choices and opportunities.

Again, restaurants don't own customers. They have to earn customers, just like any other business.

"I could go on and on.. Recently I read an article by Chris Christie in one of the Libertarian rags- The "Cato Letters" and I just had to laugh. These people are fools."

I don't know how this relates to the topic. Maybe it's just a gratuitous insult, which detracts from the argument.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chicago Trib


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Cleanliness and careful food handling so as to avoid consumer illness are those kinds of regulations that make a lot of sense... but a traveling food truck can be every bit as sanitary as a stationary restaurant. Safety regulations can be very common sense and necessary.

However, regulations that seek to make one type of establishment the only type one CAN frequent within an area is very much akin to creating a monopoly. Those kinds of regulations are often extremely ridiculous, and make no sense, whatsoever... unless you count vindictive satisfaction, greed, and the need to eliminate honest competition necessary and common sense.



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RE: Deregulate poverty

Teachers painting during summer recess.
Concrete workers doing interior home improvements during winter.
Landscapers snowplowing.
Plumbers and Electricians work for cash too.
Union members work undercover for side job cash.

There is a dog walker/sitter in my area and the rumor is she earns over $50,000 cash per year, tax free. That's not hard to believe. It only takes $24 per hour X 2,080 hours (typical) to earn it.

Contractors, tradesmen, handymen, mechanics and others working for cash/barter has been growing since I can remember.

You can't get many subs to work, or prioritize your jobs unless you pay them in cash, barter, partial cash, or give them a cash bonus.

Many of the unskilled and low skilled cash/barter jobs with high demand and good growth are in unlicensed daycare and private duty home healthcare.

We know a girl who quit 3 part-time jobs, then started babysitting for several kids during the week and doing private duty CNA work nights and weekends. She literally quadrupled the money she was making, plus one of her homecare clients likes her so much she gave her a late model car as part of her compensation.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 17, 12 at 10:27

I miss backyard mechanics ... changing the oil in my truck was not a job I want to repeat.

Maybe I can "barter my bakery" the next time the oil needs changed :)


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RE: Deregulate poverty

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 17, 12 at 10:39

I recall that this issue came up a few years ago in the DC suburbs, they are called micro-businesses. Hispanic women were cooking local (Central & South American and Caribbean) foods and selling them to the men as they came home from work. These foods were not otherwise available, and the men, living a dozen or so to an apartment and not cooking for themselves, were very grateful to be able to eat good, familiar food from home.

Clearly, they were meeting an important need, and that's how real small businesses get started. Too much regulation, even well-meaning, can stop good business.

Here is a link that might be useful: Microbusinesses


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RE: Deregulate poverty

I've been up around the big hospital complex in Aurora, CO quite a bit this past year, and all around the campus are old vans and busses converted into mobile Hispanic food vendors - and I suspect they're doing exactly that - supplying food to the army living a dozen to an apartment. But there are just as many Thai, Mexican, and Chinese take-out places with brick buildings.

I've yet to eat at any of them. More because I have no idea what to order.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 17, 12 at 10:51

Speaking of which, isn't that how Paula Deen got started? If I remember correctly she packed lunches and had her boys go out and sell to local workers?


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Bartering is as American as apple pie. During the Great Depression, almost everyone bartered various and sundry goods. I agree with the OP. We have a lot of food trucks here in the city and they lend a colorful, ethnic flourish to the street life. I hated it when where I lived before, in another state, the Ice Cream Man was banned from city neighborhoods. (Complained of the noise the music from his truck made). Lots of unhappy kids, in summer.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

In our older cities, cottage industry and bartering was the norm.

Much light commercial and commercial work was performed in homes, basements, attics, garages, barns, workshops etc.

Many of the apartments and homes people live in were once mills, factories and small commercial producers.

Parking wasn't much of an issue as people walked, or took the trains and trolleys.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Speaking of Ice Cream Trucks, a local business - Mr Ding A Ling started with one truck in the 70s and now has dozens of trucks.

They've received plenty of noise complaints. Who in the hell could be so uptight to complain about something so petty?


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RE: Deregulate poverty

It is the retail stores and neighborhoods that have built up an area to attract customers and that the restaurants then have to pay the high rents. So you think it's O.K. that the 'Food Trucks' can come in, not pay any rent and poach customers from the retail rent payers?

This is not at all like a neighborhood ice cream truck and to make the comparison is disingenuous. The City isn't against Food Trucks- they are only designating that that they don't park within 200 feet from a restaurant. That's nothing. The Libertarians sound more like the Mafia to me.

And most restaurants do not police their restrooms, how nice for the Food Truck owners- They get the best location, no rent and the free use of the bathrooms of the legit restaurants. What a racket! And hardly fair. But Libertarians are never about fair play, only 'Free Trade'.. Indeed, the Food Trucks are selling a meal, they aren't just selling popsicles on a Summer day. What a ridiculous argument you make.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Ohiomom, if I lived closer to you, I'd barter with you anytime. My husband is a very skilled mechanic, who doesn't mind one bit helping friends. A barter doesn't even have to take place, really. If he, or we, can be of service helping with auto maintenance, we will. We have no doubt that what goes around, comes around. :-)


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Probably more the encouragement of rug rats congregating in the NIMBY environs.

Thanks, lionheart, for defending the good values of true libertarianism. Well, done. We are (sere?) a nation of entrepreneurs and small-holders capable of seeing a need and coming up with solutions that paid the bills and improved their lives and those of their kin.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 17, 12 at 12:20

(((Jodik)))


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RE: Deregulate poverty

In 2006, the tax gap was estimated to be $385 billion. Of that $385 billion, $122 billion was due to individuals under reporting their business income. In 2006, the Federal deficit was about $248 billion.

2006 is the last year that I can find any detailed information from the IRS about the tax gap.

While everyone on an individual level says their share isn't that much, it sure adds up when you total everyone's share. And it doesn't make those of us who are careful to report every penny as taxable income feel very charitable about those who don't.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tax Gap Map


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RE: Deregulate poverty

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 17, 12 at 13:57

"I miss backyard mechanics ... changing the oil in my truck was not a job I want to repeat. "

I have a backyard mechanic next door. On late Friday night or very early Saturday morning, usually before six a commercial flatbed beeps as it backs into his backyard. He works Friday night to Sunday night because there is no code enforcement officer on duty over the weekends. There are normally 3 to 4 cars parked back there outside my back window. He always gets several cars coming in on Holiday weekends, Thanksgiving, Christmas, 4th of July... he looks forward to these as extra work days... we no longer do.

The flatbed then unloads a car and, if it is dark bright lights come on. It's ok we got my daughter blackout shades so she can sleep now. The impact wrench then starts to loosen bolts... it's ok my daughter comes away from her desk and down to the kitchen so she can do homework when this happens. They even do bodywork and we make sure to close the windows when we start smelling fumes.

My neighbor then does the brakes, or cooling system... or changes the oil... I don't wonder where all that coolant, hydraulic fluid and oil goes... they have dug a pit and occasionally they dig the toxic slop out of it and deposit it next to my fence in the back... it's ok we learned not to grow vegetables in my backyard years ago. He always seems to have an awful lot of garbage by the curb as well, customers hanging about, cars coming and going creating safety and parking problems.... well, it is a commercial business after-all... wait? It's a single family residence... but soooo many people live there.... maybe I'm confused.

I won't go on to complete the entire story of my backyard mechanic next door... but I will say that my local city government knows all about it and that it has gone on for years. He did fix the fence when it got blown down during the recent storm.... wonder why.

By the way, the women of the house started a cooking business a few years ago... it was extremely popular... 20, 30 sometimes 40 people enjoying themselves eating on the porch, in the back and front yards... they had to shut that down when the drunken evenings started getting later and more regular... that and all the animals the trash started attracting.

I actually don't fault my neighbor... he's doing what he needs to do to feed his family. He came from El Salvador not speaking the language and is now an entrepreneur... but the value of my house and my quality of life... not to mention the potential long term health of my family has suffered.... so who should I fault?


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RE: Deregulate poverty

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 17, 12 at 14:24

I don't see any difference between someone buying a taco from a food truck instead of a Mexican restaurant and buying an ice cream sandwich from an ice cream truck instead of a mini-mart, grocery or ice cream shop.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 17, 12 at 14:32

Well now KWoods the guys I knew did not do it as a business the way your neighbor does, usually (like my late cousin/mechanic) it was working on cars for family members, not body work, more along the lines of putting on brake pads and changing oil. The oil was collected in containers which my community picks up and/or has a drop off place for and none was ever deposited in the ground and/or poured into the rain gutters.

Now my MIL who lives in Tennessee (rural) has a neighbor (next door) that has a front yard filled with junk cars that he uses for parts and does repairs. There are no codes because it is rural, people (including her) also burn their garbage and dump scraps behind the shed.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Kwoods,

I say you are amazingly tolerant. I have no problem with people trying to make a living, but what you describe I would be entirely NIMBY about it.

The way small-town officials refuse to enforce codes against people who pretend not to understand English at certain key times, or maybe against landlords who are their cronies, is outrageous. That kind of BS is rampant around here.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

I would say that not every backyard mechanic or helpful family member operates in the same manner as KWoods' neighbor. We collect the used oil from the few oil changes we do on personal vehicles or those of friends, and either take it to a collection point, or reuse it for other jobs that are farm related. Used oil keeps moving metal parts on farm machinery from rusting and seizing up over winter, and there are many other uses that don't include fouling Mother Earth.

I would say KWoods is very tolerant of his neighbor... perhaps too much so...


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Woods: "My neighbor then does the brakes, or cooling system... or changes the oil... I don't wonder where all that coolant, hydraulic fluid and oil goes... they have dug a pit and occasionally they dig the toxic slop out of it and deposit it next to my fence in the back... it's ok..."

It's NOT "ok". Report this to the DNR right away. This isn't a personal problem.


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RE: Stop the toxic dumping

I see that your state doesn't have a Department of Natural Resources. You must have some sort of oversight agency. You really need to have this dumping stopped and remediated, Woods. I found this re the oil, but I can't think that the other fluids you mentioned are legal and/or harmless to he environment.

"NY State Motor Oil Regulations

See: motor oil info for residents; takeback info for businesses: motor oil; used oil at NY State Dept of Environmental Conservation

Law: Laws of NY State (Search for Environmental Conservation Law (ENV), Article 23, Title 23: Rerefining of Used Oil)

Regulations: NY Codes, Rules and Regulations (Search for Title 6, Part 360, Subpart 360-14:Used Oil and Part 374, Subpart 374-2: Standards For The Management Of Used Oil) Regulations also posted at NYS Dept of Conservation

Summary: The NY State Environmental Conservation Law directs the proper handling, recycling and disposal of used oil, which includes any oil or lubricant product refined from crude or synthetic oil, including motor oil. Used oil is prohibited from disposal by the public. Most service stations and certain retailers are required to accept used oil from the public. The NY State Dept of Environmental Conservation regulates generators, transporters, processors, refiners, energy recovery, and transfer facilities that handle used oil. NYSDEC also provides standards for the marketing of used oil as a fuel. The State's regulations are based in large part on the Federal Resource Conservation and Recovery Act management standards for used oil.

ALSO SEE:
ny state solid waste and resource recovery facilities law
ny state waste transporter law"

back to top : back to disposal laws : back to sales and marketing laws
back to take-back laws : back to toxics laws


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RE: Deregulate poverty

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 17, 12 at 22:49

That crap could get into the water supply at some point.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Some joker around here recently poured half a residential tank's worth of fuel oil into the city drain, just to get at the scrap metal. Terrible cleanup mess and a huge cost to the city.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Yes; it sure can be. People need to report dumping of harmful materials, the sooner the better. It won't go away by itself; it can have a domino effect.

If Woods' neighbor is contacted by the authorities, they will help him clean it up and educate him as to the best way to deal with his waste issues. It may well be that where Woods' neighbor comes from, this dumping is common practice.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Marshall, most restaurants at least where I live, in and around San Francisco and Berkeley are small business too! The owners often feel that they are working for their landlords as it is, and many are barely making it, being as creative as they can- many are small cafes, ethnic restaurants etc. I'm sure you know that if you live up in the Ojai. A 'Food Truck' that could park right outside just adds insult to injury. And I believe there's a similar law here- we're talking about 200 feet from a working restaurant. That's 1/3 less than the length of a football field.

I remember living in Pennsylvania and working summers at a parts dept. for an auto dealer. A food truck would pull up and the mechanics would take a lunch break and those that didn't bring a lunch would buy something off the truck.. But there were no restaurants or cafes nearby.

Libertarians like to spout words like "Freedom" and "Liberty" and "Justice" and if they had their way they'd want 'freedom' from health inspectors too! Those pesky 'regulations' and things like smoking bans are just an irritant to these bastions of freedom - freedom and liberty for who?.... Justice? Well, Libertarians 'justify' gangster capitalism- if you call that justice.

Who started a Libertarian 'think tank' like the Cato Institute? Charles Koch of Koch Industries, he and his brother David are two of the 4 shareholders to this day.

These guys are the biggest bullies and gangsters on the block and the only thing that can stop them is "government of the people, by the people and for the people" as Lincoln said when dedicating Gettysburg.

Fighting for food trucks might seem like a quaint story but it's written by some of the most avaricious people on the planet.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Sun, Nov 18, 12 at 0:24

Man, some of you people live in a nice world. My neighbor is everywhere where I live. Another neighbor across the street installs car alarms and radios... oh listen, I hear him working now... thump, thump, thump through my walls. Another house up the street is an illegal daycare, The parents park across my driveway to drop their kids off, I see the local fire chief drop his kid off there every morning. BTW, the daycare's "playground" is adjacent to the mechanic doing the illegal toxic dumping. We also have those charming car services where some guy in a dilapidated toyota carolla ferries people around, he'll even pick up papusas for you from his friends restaurant... or a prostitute, door to door service. Lots of illegal housing, undocumented workers... my neighborhood was "on the edge" and now with the bad economy... Unregulated entrepreneurs abound where I live.

Call whatever agency, whoever you want, unless you "know" somebody nothing will be done.... in fact YOU will be the problem if you complain too loudly or too frequently, ask me how I know.

Where I live isn't too bad at all compared to a lot of places either. Imagine what it would be like if "poverty was deregulated"... My guess, slums would get a lot slummier pretty quick and those that already live in a nice world wouldn't much notice.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

The EPA... call the EPA. They have strict rules and regulations on these sorts of hazards... and stiff cleanup fines.

See, these are the kinds of safety regulations that we need to keep intact... and not dismantle so industry can pollute at will in the name of profit...


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RE: Deregulate poverty

"Where I live isn't too bad at all compared to a lot of places either."

So? Anyplace in NA (excepting Tijauna) isn't all that bad compared to starving to death, either. Or being stolen and made a sex-slave, or being in a concentration camp. Doesn't excuse an illegal segment of society forcing a sub-standard lifestyle upon another segment, while the officials charged with oversight do nothing because they are getting rich off the income from their run-down properties that would otherwise not pay the taxes.

BTW, anybody who thinks greed isn't rampant amongst the illegal population hasn't had any contact with them. Total horse-hockey. As an average, they wouldn't be here if it weren't for greed, because guess what? Where they came from isn't "all that bad", either. Greed drives them here, and greed drives all kinds of onerous behavior afterwards.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

BTW, anybody who thinks greed isn't rampant amongst the illegal population hasn't had any contact with them. Total horse-hockey. As an average, they wouldn't be here if it weren't for greed, because guess what? Where they came from isn't "all that bad", either. Greed drives them here, and greed drives all kinds of onerous behavior afterwards.

*

Salient point, pn.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Some joker around here recently poured half a residential tank's worth of fuel oil into the city drain, just to get at the scrap metal. Terrible cleanup mess and a huge cost to the city.

We don't see that happen much anymore due to the high price of heating oil.

It used to be pretty common for scrappers to leave several gallons of fuel in tanks, but due to regulations the salvage yards make you cut tanks in half, or cut large holes in bottoms and ends of tanks.

The high value of scrap really helped clean up many areas.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

The key to being successful in many illegal and underground economy jobs is to be as stealthy as possible, plus avoid pi$$ing off neighbors.

The reason many people have been shut down is that they were reported by numerous neighbors after pi$$ing them off on numerous occasions.

Many will look the other way as long as you're quiet, respectful, organized, don't pollute and/or help them.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Let's not confuse Libertarianism with Anarchism, which some people do for unknown reasons. It's not an accurate depiction of libertarianism. The two are very different.

Libertarians agree that one of the government's responsibilities is to enforce contracts between parties. In fact, they insist on it. Another is that the government should protect private property rights. Nowhere is that an endorsement of people dumping pollutants into the ground. No one approves of others being disruptive or discourteous to their neighbors.

When it comes to business being conducted in commercial areas, the government has no right to pick winners and losers, let alone grant special privileges based on who comes up with the best bribe or who has a brother-in-law on the city council. Unfortunately, most governments are corrupt when it comes to nepotism and favoritism and cozying up to shady constituents who can acquire goodies for the politicians.

Government should not be micro-managing every facet of life. I would like to see them effectively neutered, since they are often useless anyway.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

BTW, anybody who thinks greed isn't rampant amongst the illegal population hasn't had any contact with them. Total horse-hockey. As an average, they wouldn't be here if it weren't for greed, because guess what? Where they came from isn't "all that bad", either. Greed drives them here, and greed drives all kinds of onerous behavior afterwards.

I haven't heard anyone claiming that, Pn -- where did that straw argument come from? What's salient are education levels and employment opportunities. Having once lived in CA and landing in Maine, I note that there are at least as many dubious illegal cottage industries surrounding me here, and ME has virtually no immigration (legal or otherwise) in comparison. All home-grown. It just takes poverty.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

This thread highlights the inherent weakness of local gov: it has a high tendency toward favoritism which has a disproportionate effect on the dis-favored, since it is so close.

For example, where do you turn if you have a run-in with some unreasonable local official? Say a building or health official takes a dislike to you and is hell-bent on removing you from your property? That is why State regulations exist. Then during the Jim Crow and Civil Rights era it became clear that even States can be too local, and the Fed had to protect locals. Perhaps even a Federal government can be overly parochial in it's thinking, and a munificent World Gov is required.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Speaking of oil, in the poor urban areas the older vehicles are in such bad condition that many leak substantial quantities of oil from the seals, plus many leak antifreeze, transmission fluid, brake fluid, power steering fluid, gas, diesel etc.

It's pretty common for many owners to add quarts of fluid per week due to leaking alone.

Many of the DIY mechanics spill a lot of fluid when changing fluids, pouring it into containers, or storing/transporting it into unapproved containers.

One of our customers lives next to a former DIY mechanic collecting disability, so they took pictures and video of him working on his vehicles and customers vehicles, then reported him for disability fraud.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

I know all cities have different inspection laws. Maybe the inspections laws should be expanded to this leaking oil thing.

I am speaking from a ignorant place here because I know nothing about this area I speak. My knowledge is put gas in the tank, turn key and go. If the gas and key turning does not work take the vehicle to the nearest lot and buy a new vehicle.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Recycling oil and oil filters is a profitable business. While my daughter, the mechanic, was in school, she worked for a company where the overwhelming majority of work was in picking up oil and oil filters from garages and service stations and recycling them. She spent most of her time dismantling and crushing used oil filters. It was very glamorous work. :-)

Now that she's a mechanic, she gets to load up the barrels with used oil, and other barrels with dirty oil filters. When they're full, they call her former employer at the oil recycling business and they pick them up and take them away, leaving new barrels to be filled.

I never knew about this stuff until my children grew up and went into a wide variety of different work.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Many garages and commercial businesses have waste oil furnaces, so they burn their own waste oil, plus accept used waste oil.

We pump out and remove many heating oil tanks at reduced charges, or for fee since we use the heating oil and kerosene in our homes, businesses and rentals, plus sell the tanks for scrap.

We see less and less automotive related polluters in the poor urban areas as many can no longer afford cars, can't work on cars due to regulations, their landlords won't allow them to work on cars, or they have nowhere to park them.

Many residents no longer have the motivation, skills, knowledge, tools and equipment to work on vehicles which has helped as well.

Our tough annual safety and emissions inspections, plus rising costs of maintenance, repairs, insurance etc has taken many of the older and high mileage vehicles off the road.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Many of the cash jobs once done by teenagers and struggling adults like landscaping, snow removal, roof shoveling, painting, light carpentry, light automotive service and other odd jobs are now down by professionals.

Much of this is due to liability.

Most underground economy workers don't carry insurance, don't provide warranties and have little or nothing to sue for.

Many underground economy workers are also overpriced. I've seen many cases where lower priced high volume professionals were pretty competitive, or cheaper when you add the cost of mistakes and damages non-professionals make.


Many underground economy workers lose a lot of work since they won't accept checks or credit cards.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

It isn't just urban areas where this fun happens - we have places that are zoned agriculture, but then they put in some massive gravel pit / asphalt paving plant and give it a 'temporary use permit' - because it will only last 50 years. Live within half a mile of one of those.......But thats officially sanctioned, so I guess it doesn't count. Maybe my immediate neighbors who put in a dirt bike track, and had 20-odd teenagers over racing dirt bikes. I'd get a half-inch of dust on everything, never mind the noise of 20 dirt bikes 200 yards away. Every weekend.

In one of the houses were rented, we had a neighbor with a fleet of trucks who had his mechanic come over and work on them early Sunday mornings, the only day the drivers had a day off. So at daybreak, 6:00 am, they'd be out beating panels. I finally got fed up enough that I hung an old oil drum from a tree next to the fence and when they started making noise, I stuffed cotton in my ears and went out and started beating on the drum.

They stopped.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

As an average, they wouldn't be here if it weren't for greed, because guess what?

Thank you for the qualifier as Los Angeles has significant populations of refugees from the civil wars and death squads in El Salvador and Guatemala, and to a lesser extent, from repression in Honduras and Panama.

A case can also be made that political decisions in other countries affect their economies which lead to out migration. The "greed" of immigrants can also be called a rational decsion for "survival."


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Thank you, Nancy... there's a big difference between just wanting enough to survive, to live a decent life with a roof over one's head and enough food to eat, and to feel safe and reasonably comfortable... and never being happy with any amount of wealth collected, and forgetting all about ethics while collecting what's never enough.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

I rather doubt that every immigrant from central america is fleeing murder by death squads. Have you talked with many/most?


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RE: Deregulate poverty

pnb, during Reagan's reign, the number of Central American refugees in Los Angeles (and the greater Los Angeles and throughout Southern California) increased dramatically to the point where Los Angeles has the largest population of Guatemalans outside of Guatemala City. (I don't know the statistics re the Salvadoran population.) During that time a number of non-profits were established to help the influx of newly-arrived immigrants -- Carecen, El Rescate, CHIRLA -- as well as seeing the beginning of the sanctuary movement to protect refugees from Reagan's INS. Maryknoll missionaries returning from Central American helped to educate re the situation from which the refugees fled, and a number of churches, both Protestant and Catholic, as well as synagogues, provided sanctuaries by sheltering refugees scheduled for deportation.

I don't know how much reporting the struggle over this issue received in the national press, but in California there were years of protests, marches, and organizing against the Reagan Administration's funding for the civil wars in Central America (and for the Nicaraguan mercenaries) and against the INS policies - Office of the Americas, CISPES, SHARE, and others.

For some history on the subject: Central Americans and Asylum Policy in the Reagan Era.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Another problem with pulling yourself out of poverty in addition to rules and regulations is competition with other poor people.

Competition for limited resources, territory and customers can be brutal - even dangerous.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

There are also very large populations of Gautemalans in south florida, where I saw them on a daily basis, presumably nearly all illegals. I don't have any way to know, but again I doubt all or even most were in mortal danger back home.

Just because a place is different doesn't make it highly dangerous. Colombia, for example, statistically has a much higher murder rate than the US or Canada, and I know well many Colombians and none of them are refugees in any realistic sense. They would not be killed if they moved back, they just prefer being here. Jamaica, as another common example, has a very high murder rate, and yet nobody thinks of Jamaican immigrants as refugees from death, typically. I suspect the odds of being murdered in Jamaica for a Jamaican are at least as high as a Guatemalan being murdered in Guatemala.

The simple fact is that there is a big difference in culture and lifestyle between most US-ians and the vast majority of immigrants, legal and illegal. The illegals especially, not surprisingly, are mostly focussed on working more hours than not, amass a small fortune and go home so they can have more than the others. This creates the kind of onerous conditions and neighborhoods as Kwoods describes. That's a bum deal for those of us who aren't trying to amass small fortunes and/or support a whole bunch of extended family someplace else, and are observing the single-family zoning regs that make neighborhoods reasonably nice places to be, rather than lack-luster Dickensian nightmares.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Just for comparisons sake, life in one of the 3rd world mega-cities, where zoning is a joke, regulations are a joke, and space - any space - is at a premium. One place I used to stay when I had work in Abidjan had charcoal vendors to the left, hair salon to the right, backyard restaurant to the rear, and the front street filled with small vendors.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Welfare and growing service economy jobs have eliminated the need to do many of the things people did in the past to survive.

The few things some people do to make some extra cash are just icing on the cake.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

And yet I'm sure it's fair to say that the vast majority of north americans - certainly including the immigrants - do not wish for our cities and towns to become third worldly. Where it's happening it's by the same mechanism that it happens in the third world itself: over-population and corruption among officials. Obviously anyone that can will flee.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Sorta segwaying back to the OP and the following discussion, it seems to me to be worth the while to recognize some more barriers that poor people face in this country. Combine this perspective - eg what normal poor people elsewhere do is illegal here - with the problems of working a 'legal' job with swing shifts, transportation issues, part-time/no benefits, and near minimum wage.

Walk a mile in their shoes....


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RE: Deregulate poverty

No, I get it, life is very harsh for some, and much more arduous for many than it is for me (as an example). Nevertheless I will resist my environs being degraded, my community, etc, and if after all recourse it cannot be stopped I would go elsewhere.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

The other thing they do to make sure you spend all of your time making someone ELSE rich is called self employment tax.

The difference between being paid by W-2 vs. 1099 is HUGE!! And they take away almost all of the credits, even if you are a single mom.

If you report cash income you can't show a source for, the tax rate is astronomical even if the same amount by W-2 would have made you eligible for a giant refund.

When the politicians bandy-about the phrase "small business," they're talking about corporations. Not mom'n'pop stores with just a couple employees, or a couple people who work together from a home office. Many people in sales and marketing, contractors, home health care people, child care workers, backyard mechanics, a guy who mows a few lawns after his day job, and so many others are not included in this political term. These are the self-employed who are being ravaged unlike other employees, and the taxes are mysterious, with tons of extra forms and gray areas, not something a lot of average people can tackle. Certainly not the kind of thing you can easily do on some website, if you have the time to try. Getting over this hump is nearly impossible.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Just because a place is different doesn't make it highly dangerous.

The insurgency in Colombia was never as strong as those in Guatemala and El Salvador. In both those countries the governments had a scorched earth policy in rural/peasant areas where they suspected there were insurgents. The massacre at El Mozote in Morazan department (El Salvador) is one example where the rural population suffered retaliation for suspected guerrilla activity. Morazan department at one time was under control of the rebels, so anyone living there was suspected of belonging to the guerrillas.

The civil wars involved land reform, and access for the peasants to more arable land. At the point the government denies the peasants the means to support themselves (supported by the U.S. government's money and arms) there aren't many choices - insurrection or immigration. The guerrilla wars in turn created more repression which prompted more immigration.

In Guatemala c. 60% of the population was still indigenous, and the army terrorized the Mayan areas. As I mentioned awhile ago on another subject, Guatemalan immigrants in Los Angeles aren't necessarily fluent in Spanish, but speak their Mayan dialect.

You might consider a comparison with the state of Iraq during and after the U.S. war and occupation, and what happened during the civil wars Guatemala and El Salvador. Infrastructure is ruined, the society is overturned, segments of the population become targets of the government, subsistence farming cannot sustain the rural population, and wealth has become concentrated in even fewer hands. I would not call anyone greedy who left Guatemala, El Salvador or Iraq when they found themselves in a failing society. And you and I paid for the mess that was created.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Brown: "The simple fact is that there is a big difference in culture and lifestyle between most US-ians and the vast majority of immigrants, legal and illegal. The illegals especially, not surprisingly, are mostly focussed on working more hours than not, amass a small fortune and go home so they can have more than the others. This creates the kind of onerous conditions and neighborhoods as Kwoods describes. That's a bum deal for those of us who aren't trying to amass small fortunes and/or support a whole bunch of extended family someplace else, and are observing the single-family zoning regs that make neighborhoods reasonably nice places to be, rather than lack-luster Dickensian nightmares."

That does happen. Well explained, IMO, as long as I am understanding that "small fortune" is meant to mean a small fortune where they came from. Whether or not they intend to return to their previous homeland is irrelevant, IMO; the damage will be done.

It's perplexing; what to do? 100 miles south we have a fair size city with lots of immigrants from southeast Asia. Some are filling the basements of the homes they are occupying with water and raising fish and ducks, which they sell to restaurants. Pet dogs have disappeared at an alarming rate. Different strokes, I guess.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Elvis if you know this , the health department knows this , and I'm sure they are dealing with the restaurants and the basements.

I recall the exact same stories when the influx of SE Asians started in Toronto......except I think it was cats.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

One would hope.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Some are filling the basements of the homes they are occupying with water and raising fish and ducks,

That would require fairly advanced culture techniques in the absence of sunlight, adjustments in the pH to compensate for the effect of the concrete, recycling systems, elaborate pumps and filters, and so on. I'd hazard a guess that anyone with the smarts to set up that kind of system would know the risks to the rest of the structure.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

Poverty is common specially to third world countries. We are still lucky that we have jobs to earn a living.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

"Elvis if you know this , the health department knows this , and I'm sure they are dealing with the restaurants and the basements."

Chase, you aren't so naive, surely?

Nancy, again, I don't doubt that the atrocities have happened and are happening. At risk of seeming cold, I simply don't feel that the fact the Spanish rulers are still engaged in their war of oppression and terror against the indigenous populations of central and south america is our problem. That is the cross and guilt of that ruling class. Ours is what was done here in north america, and plenty was done and there is plenty of misery and degradation as a result that has not been addressed.

If we are going to have third-world style let's get ahead by any means possible communities, I'd rather see them lift the descendants of north americans out of poverty rather than Guatemalans and etc. But that won't happen, and basically it's because the descendants of those we made war upon and enslaved are native-speakers of English.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

"Poverty is common specially to third world countries. We are still lucky that we have jobs to earn a living."

I hear you, but disagree somewhat. There are plenty of people in the good ole USA that don't have homes and live on the street and out of garbage cans. There are defined guidelines used to determine 'poverty', but it is still subjective.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

"There are defined guidelines used to determine 'poverty', but it is still subjective."

For sure. For example, DH & I befriended a young man we met on the beach back in '84 in Zihuatanejo, Gro. (We used to spend a lot time in Mexico before the beheadings, etc). He invited us to dinner, and we accepted. He and his woman lived in a thatched hut in the jungle, dirt floor and open windows. Clean and neat and very charming, majorly primitive. Dinner was super simple (and tasty!). Their 2 year old (naked) was a free spirit; she slept in a rope hammock which they wrapped around and around her so that she wouldn't fall out. They wanted to make sure the python that lived in the roof couldn't get at her...near as we could tell, this little family was happy.

But they were healthy; life could change in a heartbeat.

Just a true story.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 20, 12 at 13:18

"If we are going to have third-world style let's get ahead by any means possible communities, I'd rather see them lift the descendants of north americans out of poverty rather than Guatemalans and etc."

That's the part I don't understand. People is people. I don't begrudge anyone getting ahead.... can't and don't care where they come from... what I don't like is those that get ahead by breaking or circumventing "the rules" the rest of us follow. "Rules" that are put in place so we can "all' have a decent life. But, again, it's hard to blame the rule breakers... they wouldn't be getting ahead without the complicity of the rule enforcers through neglect or otherwise.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

It would also be great if we could find more ways to help those who need it work within the rules. At one point when researching the possibily of making a product to sell at Farmer's Markets, I discovered that there were actually industrial type kitchens that you could rent to prepare your food product within the confines of the law (stainless steel counters, etc). At the time I thought the price reasonable but it was too far for me to utilize. I was happy to see that such a thing existed but I do not know how many people that need it are aware of its existence.


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RE: Deregulate poverty

There are too many illegal immigrants in the Washington DC area who come from a culture where the law is only what you buy either before or after getting caught. The problem is they have brought that culture with them and their attitude is that the "we are stupid" for obeying laws if there is no police or other enforcer around to see.

For example, we are having a growing problem of illegals buying beater cars and stealing license plates. Then when they get in an accident (especially if they caused it), they just get out of the car and run.

No, this is not something all illegals do. But it is common enough that they have killed a dozen or more people in car accidents here. The property damage accidents rarely make the media, but I personally know of a bunch. For example, my coworker was driving on the two-lane Baltimore-Washington Parkway one evening in heavy traffic when a car drove up between the two lanes hitting my coworker�s car and the one in the left lane. The cars in front just pulled over to let the driver go. When the police showed up for the hit and run report, he told my coworker, they work at least 6 or 7 of exactly this kind of accident almost every week. When the offender's car is not driveable, they always just abandon their car. The few they catch just shrug and say that's the breaks, there isn't usually a police car around to catch them. They are all illegals, usually from El Salvador.

That's the third world attitude I hate seeing take root here.


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