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More Anti-American Tripe

Posted by hamiltongardener CAN 6a (My Page) on
Mon, Nov 12, 12 at 21:54

I've saved certain posters the trouble of making the accusation.

WITH its presidential election over, the US can finally take a breather from campaign politics, at least for a while. But an uncomfortable question lingers: How is it possible for the world's most powerful country to exhibit a state of political discourse that is more reminiscent of a failed African state?

Without question, the worst offenders are America's Republicans, whose leaders have somehow become enraptured by ideas that are beyond the pale in other advanced countries. Of the party's dozen presidential candidates, only two (Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman) declined to reject scientific evidence concerning global warming and its human causes.

The Darwinian theory of evolution has long been a dirty word among Republicans as well. Rick Perry, the governor of Texas and an early frontrunner in the Republican primary, called it just a "theory out there".

Likewise, if there is an archaic idea in economics, it is that the US should return to the Gold Standard. Yet, this idea, too, has strong support within the Republican Party- led by Ron Paul, another contender for the party's presidential nomination. No one was surprised when the party's platform gave a nod to the Gold Standard in its convention in August.

Most non-Americans would find it crazy that neither Mr Romney nor Barack Obama supported stricter gun-control laws in a country where it is sometimes easier to buy guns than it is to vote. Most Europeans cannot understand how, in a civilised country, both candidates can favour the death penalty. And I won't even get into the abortion debate.

Candidate Romney was so cowed by his party's obsession with low taxes that he never put forth a budget that added up. It was left to his spinners to explain, as The Economist put it, that this was "necessary rubbish, concocted to persuade the fanatics who vote in the Republican primaries".

So rampant were the equivocations, untruths, and outright lies from both camps that many media outlets and non-partisan groups maintained running lists of factual distortions.

Some of the most egregious examples included Mr Obama's claims that Mr Romney was planning to raise taxes by $2,000 on middle-income taxpayers and/or cut taxes by $5 trillion, and that Mr Romney backed a law that would outlaw "all abortions, even in cases of rape and incest".

Mr Romney went even further, claiming that Mr Obama planned to raise taxes by $4,000 on middle-income taxpayers; that Obama planned "to gut welfare reform by dropping work requirements"; and that Chrysler, bailed out by the Obama administration, was moving all of its Jeep production to China.

One can draw two possible conclusions from America's election. One is that the US will ultimately be undone by the poor quality of its democratic discourse.

The other possibility is that what is said and done during an election makes little difference to a polity's health.

But, if American elections are nothing other than entertainment, why is so much money spent on them, and why do so many people get so exercised over them? Can the answer be that the outcome would be even worse otherwise?

Here is a link that might be useful: Scotsman.com


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: More Anti-American Tripe

That's really to complicated for this yank to understand could you put that in 20 words or less! A graph might also help or better cartoons!


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RE: More Anti-American Tripe

Sorry, Hamilton--that article didn't tell us anything new. Not to me; thanks anyway.


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Most non-Americans would find it crazy that neither Mr Romney nor Barack Obama supported stricter gun-control laws in a country where it is sometimes easier to buy guns than it is to vote. Most Europeans cannot understand how, in a civilised country, both candidates can favour the death penalty. And I won't even get into the abortion debate.

I didn't find the article that harsh; criticism has been much worse here. I don't consider it harsh until we're called troglodytes and/or barbarians -- and then there's still a good chance that the foreign critic is correct.

O would some power the giftie gie us to see ourselves as others see us.


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This is why having a greater membership here, from more varied nations around the globe would be nice... because we seldom see ourselves without some sort of tint on the glass...


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RE: More Anti-American Tripe

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Tue, Nov 13, 12 at 8:01

Labrea gets the prize for the best answer .. actually this is a very benign criticism and nothing that hasn't been said here.


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RE: More Anti-American Tripe

Nothing new.

Every American is participating in the take-down of America. For Don, that's the USA.


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"Most non-Americans would find it crazy that neither Mr Romney nor Barack Obama supported stricter gun-control laws in a country where it is sometimes easier to buy guns than it is to vote. "

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns. They don't care about the laws, and break whatever ones are in their way. If you take away the guns, the nuts and "bad guys" don't surrender theirs. Even if the guns all magically disappeared, there will still be crazies wielding something, swords, bow/arrows, bombs, box cutters, acid, anthrax, slingshot... You can't legislate sanity or emotions. Americans should absolutely defend their right to defend themselves. Where do terror attacks happen? In places with strict gun control laws, like NY. I've never heard of an al quaeda threat to blow something up in TX. They know those cowboys will shoot back! This is one of the few issues where I end up on the GOP side.

Of course Americans argue. We have the right to free speech and like to exercise it. The obvious, unmotivated lies the politicians tell are ridiculous though. Paul Ryan said he ran a marathon and it was proven that he did not. I think this election was a referendum against the party that treated the citizens more like idiots, that told more lies. We are smarter than they think, and the line has been drawn at so much dishonesty. If you can't believe anything a guy says, he shouldn't get your vote.

Without "team rape" (phrase coined by Steven Colbert, AFAIK, for 3 GOP candidates who made disturbing, bizarre, and ridiculous comments about rape,) it's likely some of the races would have had different outcomes, possibly the presidential election. We'll never know how many guilty-by-association votes this cost Mitt. I'm so glad none of these creeps won.


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Americans should absolutely defend their right to defend themselves. Where do terror attacks happen? In places with strict gun control laws, like NY.

Heri gonna love you!! LMAO

Seriously-- good to see someone else who sees beyond the BS.


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There is nothing symbolic worth blowing up in Texas. Gun laws have little to do with the threat of terrorism. Get real. Also read translations of al Qaeda manifestos predating 9-11.

Symbolism is everything to Islamic fanatics.


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Americans should absolutely defend their right to defend themselves. Where do terror attacks happen? In places with strict gun control laws, like NY.

This confused foreigner has trouble understanding this. Al Qaeda flew airliners into the World Trade Centre because they knew New York had gun control measures?

It would make more sense if they knew that Bill wouldn't be there defending the Metropolis - that I could understand :)

Best wishes,
Perplexed in the UK


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Thanks, Jon. I was just going to ask how guns protect from terrorism. Only in some heads, it seems.

These kind of justifications for guns is a specious argument. How many times do you hear of someone actually defending themselves or saving someone else from any assault with their guns? Compare those numbers (if there are any) with the numbers of people killed by guns. Even guns legally obtained (James Holmes).

Come on. Be real. Countries that do not have their populations armed (England, Canada, Sweden) have very very low statistics of violence by guns, knives or swords, bow/arrows, bombs, box cutters, acid, anthrax, slingshot, whatever.


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I was thinking of drones. Here I sit at 3:50 am in my home thinking about how the neighbors would feel if my house was demolished in a drone strike in the next 15 minutes. Will they rush out brandishing their handguns to defend the neighborhood from further assault from this terrorist attack?


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In fact I believe Canada is one of the nations with relatively high per-capita gun ownership.


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In fact I believe Canada is one of the nations with relatively high per-capita gun ownership.

I think you are correct, I'm not sure if that statistic is still true.

But most of the guns are held by a small percentage of people, mostly hunters, and a smaller percentage of the guns are handguns or assault weapons.

There is a big difference between a population that believes they need to carry handguns for personal safety and a population that has unloaded and locked hunting rifles in their back room.

I think the evidence for this plays out in Toronto, where an influx of gang and drug activity has taken over in recent years. They are carrying handguns (obviously not for hunting moose) and the murder rate has spiked.


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I have to agree, at least in part, with what Purpleinopp is saying. It's the same thing I've said, and Bill has said, for years, now... if you legislate against guns, the only ones who will respect such laws are those who follow them in the first place.

I, for one, do not want to live in a nation where the only armed persons are the cops and the criminals... and remember, those two things sometimes go hand in hand. Not every police officer out there is decent, honest, or is a true public servant. Most are... but there's always those few errant bad guys among the good.

This is the one area where I sort of agree with the conservatives... although, I do not think there's any need for the public to have fully automatic assault weaponry. It only serves one purpose... and that's to blow apart human beings. I'm fine with weaponry for hunting, small arms for self defense, and weapons for accuracy sport, or such things as black powder or antique collecting. But I don't think the average homeowner needs a machine gun. And I do believe that's President Obama's stance on the issue, as well.

But the truth is... laws are only good if people follow them. And you can't legislate stupidity. Even nations that have strict anti-gun laws have a criminal element that's armed. That part will never change.


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Cleveland sponsored a gun buy back this past fall. Many of the folks were swapping guns for money to buy drugs.

Here is a link that might be useful: Guns per capita


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"I think the evidence for this plays out in Toronto, where an influx of gang and drug activity has taken over in recent years. They are carrying handguns (obviously not for hunting moose) and the murder rate has spiked. " Are handguns illegal there? And they seem to only be in the hands of criminals? Interesting. Are you saying that the presence of handguns created violent gangs and caused them to shoot at each other? They were getting along well before they found some guns, I'm sure. Could it possibly be that the exorbitant amount of money people are willing to spend on illegal substances makes their sale an extremely profitable practice for these gangs? If the people weren't buying that stuff, and/or if it was not illegal, there would be nothing for the gangs to fight about. Capitalism isn't always practiced in legal forms. I very recently watched a documentary about Canadian drug/gang violence, which was headline news a decade ago, Maurice "Mom" Boucher. It's just the same ongoing thing with new/different gangs and drugs.

"But most of the guns are held by a small percentage of people, mostly hunters..." Maybe in Canada. I think you are grossly underestimating the number of armed American households. It's impossible to say since it's not the kind of info a lot of people are willing to share with the government or some market research survey.

"There is nothing symbolic worth blowing up in Texas." Blowing up anything in TX would be symbolic.

"Gun laws have little to do with the threat of terrorism." They may not deter incidents like suicide bombs, but the knowledge that our population is well-armed helps keep our country safe. The whole world knows we will shoot back en masse.

The 2nd amendment:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The original intent of the first ten Amendments was to restrict Congress from abusing its power.

"These kind of justifications for guns is a specious argument." These arguments are not for justification of guns. They are to highlight one's right as an American citizen to have them.

"How many times do you hear of someone actually defending themselves or saving someone else from any assault with their guns?" Why would this matter? Are you implying that un-exercised rights expire or have no importance? Are you implying that a small number of casualties due to inability to defend ones' self are - what, acceptable? A decent trade? Do you really want a long list of links to stories about this very thing, no doubt easy to provide? How many incidents would it take to "be enough?"

"Compare those numbers (if there are any) with the numbers of people killed by guns. Even guns legally obtained (James Holmes)." Why? What's the point? People who have murderous intentions have nothing to do with gun laws. If they cared about a law, they might follow the one that says murder (by any means) is illegal. AFAIK, the penalty for that is a bit more stiff than for illegal gun possession.

"Come on. Be real. Countries that do not have their populations armed (England, Canada, Sweden) have very very low statistics of violence by guns, knives or swords, bow/arrows, bombs, box cutters, acid, anthrax, slingshot, whatever." If I were interested in comparing crime rates, I may find that you are right. What is the relevance? If I wanted to live in England or Canada, I would move. I invite you to consider Switzerland within consideration of the gun violence rate there.

"Switzerland does not have a standing army, instead opting for a peoples' militia to defend their country. The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations.

Police statistics for the year 2006[14] records 34 killings or attempted killings involving firearms, compared to 69 cases involving bladed weapons and 16 cases of unarmed assault. Cases of assault resulting in bodily harm numbered 89 (firearms) and 526 (bladed weapons). As of 2007, Switzerland had a population of about 7,600,000."


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Americans are blind when it comes to gun ownership. In my area over a period of about 3 or 4 weeks 4 small children either shot themselves or another child with a gun carelessly left out by a parent. This sad fact is not enough to make people around here question our gun ownership obsession. Guns make them feel safe. We live in a fools paradise.


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Maybe in Canada. I think you are grossly underestimating the number of armed American households.

Purple, I WAS talking about Canada... as opposed to the makeup of gun owners in the USA.

In Canada, most firearms are used for hunting. In the USA, a much higher percentage of gun are handguns... the purpose of which is to use against other humans as opposed to, say, moose.

Hopefully that makes more sense now.

As for the handguns in Toronto, the confiscated handguns from gangs originated in (surprise!) the USA, which is awash in handguns. Yes, we have had handguns before the recent spate of gang violence in Toronto... biker gangs and the mafia have a history of violence against each other.

The newer, more frequent and more open gun violence originates from drug/turf wars between Jamaican gangs which established themselves in the past dozen years and even more recently, Somalians, something which surprised me.

Apparently over 90% of the murders in Toronto last year were Jamaican or Somalian related, and most involved handguns smuggled from the USA in the cases which were resolved.

But to somehow suggest that the solution to this problem is to put handguns into the hands of the rest of the population... so they can attempt to live out the fantasy of vigilante heroics... well we can see the results of that already within the country south of us. We have the opportunity to learn from your mistakes...what NOT to do.


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A graph might also help or better cartoons!

In a nutshell:

-Ron-


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"This sad fact is not enough to make people around here question our gun ownership obsession. Guns make them feel safe. We live in a fools paradise." Indeed truly very sad, and a commentary on parents not being responsible with dangerous inanimate objects.

"the purpose of which is to use against other humans as opposed to, say, moose." If moose present a threat, I'm sure appropriate arms will materialize. If what you fear is an armed intruder in your home, a handgun or shotgun is appropriate.

"As for the handguns in Toronto, the confiscated handguns from gangs originated in (surprise!) the USA,..." "Apparently over 90% of the murders in Toronto last year were Jamaican or Somalian related, and most involved handguns smuggled from the USA in the cases which were resolved." This is a law enforcement problem. You/we have a law that is being broken. The guns can't walk across the border themselves.

"But to somehow suggest that the solution to this problem is to put handguns into the hands of the rest of the population... " I did not suggest the "putting" of any guns into any hands.

"so they can attempt to live out the fantasy of vigilante heroics..." Not a fantasy, a right held by Americans. Unfortunately the right does not guarantee competence or responsibility. We're so together on this one. But I refuse to concede any rights on the basis that they can be abused or have unintended consequences due to human incompetence or irresponsibility.

"We have the opportunity to learn from your mistakes...what NOT to do." No doubt your separate country will govern itself as it sees fit. I wish our neighbors to the north every success in doing it their way.


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I've saved certain posters the trouble of making the accusation.

Nope. They're still clinging to their guns or religion or both.

-Ron-


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Patricia: "Americans are blind when it comes to gun ownership. In my area over a period of about 3 or 4 weeks 4 small children either shot themselves or another child with a gun carelessly left out by a parent. This sad fact is not enough to make people around here question our gun ownership obsession. Guns make them feel safe. We live in a fools paradise."

Fools is the operative word here. The negligent parents should be charged with various serious crimes against children.

I really don't think most gun owners are obsessed with their guns. I think the anti-gun people are obsessed with those guns.

Elly: "Come on. Be real. Countries that do not have their populations armed (England, Canada, Sweden) have very very low statistics of violence by guns, knives or swords, bow/arrows, bombs, box cutters, acid, anthrax, slingshot, whatever."

All these weapons are illegal in England, Canada, Sweden? I understand banning anthrax, but knives, box cutters?
What about scissors? You could hurt someone with scissors; how about steak knives? What if someone jumps up from the table in an elegant restaurant and starts slashing away?

------------------

The 2nd amendment is there for a reason. I do not think it is smart to have no citizens armed except the police and military. Talk about sheeple. It's human nature for power to corrupt the ones who have all of it.


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What if someone jumps up from the table in an elegant restaurant and starts slashing away?

True - some clothing might be damaged, and that would be unfortunate.

I certainly don't think that anti-Americans are obsessed with American's lack of control. I would assume they would be delighted to see Americans slaughtering each other in the name of their Values and Rights.

I accepted many years ago that Americans are free to follow whatever practices they like within the privacy of their own homes and borders. As an observation, though, Americans do seem to be inordinately frightened of each other.

But then, I'm not anti-American. Though I have been known to talk a load of tripe.

Best wishes
Jon


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"...I refuse to concede any rights on the basis that they can be abused or have unintended consequences due to human incompetence or irresponsibility."

I would concur. It's been said a thousand times if it's been said once within this forum... you can't legislate stupidity, or force common sense.

My family has been around weaponry of one kind or another for over three generations, and there's never been a crime or accident as a result. Why? Safety first.

"I really don't think most gun owners are obsessed with their guns. I think the anti-gun people are obsessed with those guns."

I believe this to be true, as well. I don't live my life in fear... but there's not a thing wrong with being prepared. We can't predict the future. It's that simple.

Besides, I've enjoyed the venison and other wild game our family has been able to consume because we have the means to procure it.

If I want to end a human life, I certainly don't need a gun.

The bottom line is... it's not the steel, wood, or composite material that's dangerous... it's the human being that picks it up with either bad intent, or lack of common sense or knowledge.


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It seems we've had too many news reports lately, of young women being attacked and raped in college housing areas. I do wish these women had and knew how to use a weapon - it wouldn't sadden me a bit to see a Lorena Bobbitt pulled on the attacker.


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Oh my. Forgot about dear Lorena...but really, that was just tooo messy. A small handgun would have done trick in a much tidier way.


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too many news reports lately, of young women being attacked and raped in college housing areas. I do wish these women had and knew how to use a weapon

Young college women couldn't have guns, however, at most campuses that don't allow firearms in college buildings or even on campus. Unless you mean non-college women who, for some reason, are walking past the dorms and get attacked.

Kate


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too many news reports lately, of young women being attacked and raped in college housing areas. I do wish these women had and knew how to use a weapon

Young college women couldn't have guns, however, at most campuses that don't allow firearms in college buildings or even on campus. Unless you mean non-college women who, for some reason, are walking past the dorms and get attacked.

Kate


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