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Do you live in a death spiral state?

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Tue, Dec 4, 12 at 7:42

This would be a state where more people receive government benefits or have government jobs than there are people working in the private sector. What will happen to these states?

Here is a link that might be useful: link


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Don't know if my state is, is it? Didn't see it mentioned but wouldn't surprise me if it is...


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Probably nothing will happen to these states. These things go in cycles. It's expensive for businesses to move, and it's expensive for individual to move. So we'll all stay put and roll with the punches.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Sorry, you didn't make the list Richard. Better luck next time lol.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Yes, I live in such a state. But not for long, as I plan to escape in a few years and am excited about doing so. :-)


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Judging by the outmigrations in the last decade, as well as a long history of human migrations (it's what we do), no geographic entity should remain convinced that its citizens are permanent hostages. Not everyone has Stockholm Syndrome. :-)


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

This is the big chat on Free Republic and all the right wing Blogs!
It's got the stink of republican ideology allover it with the taker maker talk. It excludes CORPORATE welfare Now NY is a leader in that as is your own oil washed state K.

Between 1982 and 1995, Louisiana taxpayers paid out $4 billion in corporate welfare that was supposed to create jobs. 26,000 jobs were lost, which means industry robbed Louisiana taxpayers of $154,000 for each job eliminated.
Between 1993 and 1996, the Louisiana chemical industry lost 800 jobs. During that three years we gave them about a $700 million dollars in welfare money. Why should taxpayers have to pay $875,000 in welfare money for each job lost?
Nationally most new jobs are created by small- and medium-sized businesses. In Louisiana, 97 percent of all businesses have 100 employees or less. Yet, the lion's share of corporate welfare is going to the big companies with political clout.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

labrea I was not attacking other states. You don't even need to tell me about one of the most corrupt states in the union. Probably not far behind Illinois. Not sure what your post has to do with the OP though.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Exactly, Joe.

When the article contains things like:
It's easy to see how California got on our list. It has pampered a large army of civil servants while using every imaginable trick to chase private-sector jobs away, the latest being a quixotic scheme to reduce the globe's atmospheric carbon.

I can't take it seriously.

There's a reason Silicon Valley is in California and not North Dakota. Businesses will continue to exist in places where it can attract the best. Nothing against North Dakota, but...


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Tue, Dec 4, 12 at 9:10

....and the right leaning blogs in Ohio are saying the solution is right under our feet. "drill baby drill" (frack)


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

It has pampered a large army of civil servants

When the L.A. Times endorsed Jerry Brown over e-Meg Whitman in our 2010 gubernatorial election, the editorial specifically cited Whitman's plan to cut public employees - California already has a low number of state employees per resident compared to the rest of the U.S. In absolute numbers, the number of state employees is high because California is the most populous state, and one of the largest geographically; the ratio of state employees to residents is low.

the latest being a quixotic scheme to reduce the globe's atmospheric carbon.

When California set stricter vehicle emission standards than mandated by the feds, there was some corporate complaining, and then changes were made because California is too large a market to ignore.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Ahhhh I get it now...they aren't "attacking" democratic states. New Mexico which tops the list has a republican governor, so does Mississippi. Not sure about the others. So no need to circle the wagons.

And jill, we had a thread on the business climate in California before. Far more businesses are leaving California than are moving in.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

No K I was pointing out the weakness of the terminology so I decided not to pollute your post but created another! Like I ask others to do when they seek to steer a post another direction.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Yes, but we live in, do business in and own properties in some of the better areas within our state.

Some smaller cities have been in a death spiral since I can remember, but some have really gotten bad in the last several years.

High property taxes due to unfunded state mandates have pushed many out of the state, or to neighboring counties, towns, villages, suburban and rural areas.

On a positive note, things that make it tough for others to survive, or do business are often good for us as it creates opportunity and eliminates competition.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

When it comes to articles and statistics on businesses moving in and out of any particular state, or country for that matter, I smell a political rat.

How many jobs are involved? What is a "business"? One guy? 40,000 employees? I suppose I could move my internet mustache comb business - November sales: $12.29, to Wyoming and it would count.

For that matter, how many move into California, so that can be compared?

And when I google this, all I see are Texas for moving in, and California for moving out?

As for death spiral stuff, thats how I would have described our school district, but then the never-ever-any-new-taxes fanatics lost the bond issue, and we're going to pay an extra $50 a year in property taxes for a state-of-the-art high school.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

I'd be interested in knowing the demographics affecting "death spiral" states and regions. Lots of more rural regions have high welfare costs relative to population density but collectively will not show up against the urban area with similar levels of welfare/government largess.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Not sure what your post has to do with the OP though.

How can this not be clear to you? The terminology of your linked article defines "takers" solely as those using government services, but completely ignores the corporations that get vast tax concessions in that same state, also funded by the "makers".

It's completely disingenuous to pretend that "takers" are all individual welfare cases. The use of such language is offensive and jingoistic, anyways, and the article is a political hack job.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

I do live in New Mexico but I have to say I had a hard time following the logic of why investment is such a bad idea. It looks to me like there was a need to write an article and nothing more. Many of the federal jobs in this state go to the labs. The people who get jobs at the labs are generally quite smart, physicists, etc and they are not coddled, they are earning their money. There are other employers as well, Intel being a big one around here. While a diversified economy is of course great, I know of nowhere that has the perfect balance. I pretty much assume taxes will go up everywhere at some point or another. I can also say that if you were to compare my tax burden here to say what I would pay living Texas (a state not on the list), I am definitely coming out far ahead where I am.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

"Let us give those takers the benefit of our sympathy and assume that every single one of them is a deserving soul. This person is either genuinely needy or a dedicated public servant or the recipient of a well-earned pension."

That paragraph could have been written by any of the tax cut grubbers!
It's the new paradigm can't beat up welfare anymore ad pensioners & folks who have paid into insurance to the lump of UNDESIREABLES!
You gotta love Forbes myopia here!


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

As soon as words such as "death spiral" occur, an intelligent reader understands that it is propaganda.
So, it's just another right wing talking point.
And I hate it when conversation is dictated by right (or left!) wing propaganda machines.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Sore loser alert!

How are government employees takers?
Police, fire, water, sewer, streets and sanitation, States attorneys, judges, teachers...
End Medicare and Medicaid and give tax breaks to billionaires?

This is a heap of trash, from another sore loser who supported Bush, the guy who created the deficit.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

If California is a death-spiral state, where does that leave Louisiana?

California, long considered to have the world's eighth-largest economy, has slipped to ninth place, according to the Palo Alto-based Center for the Continuing Study of the California Economy.

Blame it on Brazil.

With a fast-growing, $2.1 trillion economy, Brazil has slipped past California ($1.9 trillion) into eighth place, according to the center's calculations from the latest World Bank economic rankings.

California was once as high as seventh but was later surpassed by Italy, which remains No. 7, just ahead of Brazil and just behind No. 6 Great Britain.

The United States, of course, is first at $14.5 trillion, followed by China at $5.9 trillion, Japan at $5.5 trillion, Germany at $3.3 trillion and France at $2.6 trillion.

California is just ahead of India's $1.7 trillion. The Los Angeles area, with a $886 billion economy, would rank 16th in world, just behind Australia and just ahead of the Netherlands. The Sacramento area's economy, incidentally, would rank 59th, just behind Qatar and Kazakhstan.

Sacramento Bee


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

The advice to not purchase real estate in the States mentioned is a joke.
The real estate market is recovering on a very steady pace in most of those States.
This guy does not know what the he11 he is talking about but is sounds good to the Foxnewser ideologues.
Check your facts buddy.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

ninamarie nailed it. The "death spiral" terminology reveals it as loaded propaganda coming from those with a certain agenda.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

I've used 'death spiral' to describe our school district.

The state funds the district by the number of students. Fewer students, less funding, less teachers, less activities, so more students leave. The county (up until last election) has steadfastly refused to bump their (absurdly low) property taxes at all for anything, so less money to pay the teachers, so the good teachers leave and the poorer ones stay, which means more kids leave the district, so less money. and so on. "Death Spiral" describes it pretty well.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

They leave out the corporate money grubbers as contributors to the downward spiral. NYC for years has tried to subsidize businesses to keep them from running across the river to Jersey City. As you can see it didn't work that was all run down abandoned train yards 30 years ago.


There are the cash sucker states that get back more than they put in continually year after year

Here is a link that might be useful: TAX SUCKERS


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Ok, I give...what's the agenda?


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Just recently, Maine was dscribed using that term.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

I give whats the selective gripe?


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

I thought Louisiana predated Texas with the secessionist crowd. Death Spiral huh...talk about a quixotic scheme. Now I gotta go lookin' for a Death Spiral article about the Republican Party.

-Ron-


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Too late by two elections, Ron.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

What the heck? This was not about a political party, these states are headed by both republicans and democrats. Excuse me for thinking this was interesting discussion regarding states economies. Go right ahead, zoom in on my home state, and if it will make you feel better to get even more personal, have at it.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

"There are the cash sucker states that get back more than they put in continually year after year."

Not picking on Labrea here but, instead, it's a critique of this oft-repeated nonsense about red states and blue states.

States don't vote; people vote.

We don't know what figures these are based on. I would expect states that have more of a federal footprint, such as military installations, federal laboratories, etc. would get more federal money.

For example, Georgia, with 13 military bases and the CDC and whatever else, would get more money than New York State, which has only 5 military bases and 1 or 2 labs.

What counts as federal expenditures? Social Security? Medicare? Medicaid? Veteran's benefits? I would expect highly populated states with an older demographic to have more SS and Medicare recipients. Is that counted as federal money going to states? Where are the retirement states again?

We could create another competing hypothesis that says that so-called Blue States have incompetent representation and their elected officials just can't seem to bring home the bacon, even when they have majorities.

Or, we could say that Red State voters are smarter. They're getting the money, after all. The Blue States just get to whine, which is something they seem to be good at.

But things are a bit more nuanced than that, aren't they? The unexamined claim is just that - unexamined. We can't take this completely manufactured red state/blue state stupidity as an article of faith when we don't know what goes into it. It's really just a platitude.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Thank you lionheart, you bring up some very good points. A large military population would mean more government workers. Not sure about medicare, if that were part of the equation, seems as if Florida would make the list. How much do tax rates factor in as well?


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

I'm gratified to see that you agree with our earlier points in this thread, Lionheart. The kind of hyperbolic rhetoric used in the OP's article serve no one.

But things are a bit more nuanced than that, aren't they? The unexamined claim is just that - unexamined. We can't take this completely manufactured red state/blue state taker/maker stupidity as an article of faith when we don't know what goes into it. It's really just a platitude.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Just the absurdity of putting down recipients of Social Security and Medicare at the "takers" of society should tell us there is something suspect about the terms of the article. And as Lionheart suggests, labeling military personnel and bases as society's "takers" is just too ridiculous! As though enlisting in the military or becoming a senior citizen were somehow a big scam being performed by scam-artists wrongfully ripping off society!

Kate


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

When you read jargon (death panels, death spirals, taker makers, job creators) that herds a favorite target into a gel like formula that makes a particular voting blocks hair stand on end you have already lost most credibility.!
The Hit piece hides in its talking point line!


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Issues of poverty, crime, blight, welfare, poor education, real-unemployment/under-employment, high property taxes etc in our death spiral state are very concentrated.

I definitely wouldn't buy, build or renovate a home in many regions due to property taxes alone, yet minutes away property taxes are low, crime is low and school systems are outstanding.

Generally speaking, if you have few rentals, few multi-families and need reliable vehicles to commute to and from work, business, shopping, daycare etc, you're not going to have many welfare recipients and poor people living in the region - at least not long term.

Our poor and low income residents generally live in the urban areas with support systems - subsidized housing, low income landlords, slumlords, transit, taxis, walkable distances to shopping/work/DSS etc.

Renting makes more sense in these regions as property tax liability is shared with other tenants. Generally speaking, the more units, the less tax per unit.

The high number of multi-family and apartment buildings not paying their fair share, plus high number of poor and low income tenants receiving numerous welfare benefits are why property taxes are so high in some regions to begin with.

Many of our unfunded state mandates consume over half of the property tax levy.

These issues have caused many of those with the ability to move, sell or cut and run to flee to neighboring towns, villages, counties, suburbs, rural areas or other states.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

In The Famous Ford to NY Drop Dead Headline who would have foresaw vacancy rates of 1% and that being considered high as the cities rent reach record levels. That was 35 years ago the new "tote stat" masses fleeing, The Bronx Burning & pronouncements of how dead, dead, dead disgusting it was sounded every night by stand up comics.

>
Who would have thunk when top rates during Ford Presidency 50% when Welfare hadn't been reformed that there would be as much hysteria as there is in these garbage economic stories.
It's garbage economic when Corporate US is recording record profits & Forbes Magazine is wailing about Maker Takers
E I E I O!
Who would have thunk I thought for sure they would have put NY out of it's misery by now, the predictions were that it would be an entirely welfare prison city (by those predictors)! 30 years ago a NY parent might still threaten their child with a future on the BOWERY if they didn't do their home work. Today you can't get an apartment on the Bowery for under a Million!
Like I said these stories attempt to steer & they do herd their target mongrels into neat little packages for the disapproval of the tax cut grubbers (who I personally disapprove of)
DOOM & GLOOM.
Now Goldman Sachs today is predicting potential 13 to 15% rise in stock prices for the year. That pretty good in a year of Record Profits & Death Spirals!
They were also predicting $150-$200 oil in 2008 & never relented on their predictions even after the crash.
How did NY get out of it's financial CRUNCH (it took work bi partisan work in a City that is 3 to 1 Democrat)
This Forbes piece is just a new form a vilification & this maker taker talk is the putrid smell of elitism & of a party that was just trounced!

This post was edited by labrea on Wed, Dec 5, 12 at 12:36


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

This Forbes piece is just a new form a vilification & this maker taker talk is the putrid smell of elitism

Indeed.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Oh well, I seem to have read a different article than most of you.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

I'm not certain about that? Your sensitivities may be different than mine in regard to being considered a maker living with a taker! I would suggest that many of your posts have certain themes as do mine.
Again this is one of your polling posts so I always enter with trepidation perhaps annoyance into the wonderland that awaits!
Still it's your style, as shooting up the scenery is mine but I would strongly doubt that we have read different pieces!


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

This Forbes piece is just a new form a vilification & this maker taker talk is the putrid smell of elitism.

But the author graduated from Harvard in 1973 with a degree in linguistics and applied math.

-Ron-


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

I stopped reading as soon as the "taker vs maker" thing was introduced......such a load of carp and predictable part of the conservative lexicon.

Absolutely no depth or credibility to the article.

All government workers are takers? Does that included police, teachers, firefighters, armed forces? All business owners/executives are job makers? Does that include all the companies who out source, pay minimum wages, use part time help and take corporate welfare?

Mrs, do I recall that your DH is a "taker"? Doesn't he work for the LA government? Perhaps I misunderstood but I recall you being quite upset with the Governor's decision to outsource the department he works in. You said it was profitable and was best handled by the government. If I have recalled incorrectly I apologize.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Whats that line "Corporation are people to my friend" they aren't included in this clowns taker clutch of golden eggs.
This could have been in that other rag the American Thinker.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Yes chase. But see, I wasn't looking for what you liberals were looking for. I didn't take takers as a derogatory term aimed at liberals. I just took it to mean, those that either work for, or are in some way supported by the government. Dependent on monies paid by taxpayers in some way or another. Money taken in by the government vs. money given out by the government. When more is being taken out vs. what is being taken in, there is a problem. Take Illinois for an example. Huge unfunded pensions, raised taxes by 2/3 last year and has just been downgraded by Moodys to the lowest of the 50 states. Now, you can say how it's a conservative hatchet job if you want. But let me ask you the question that I thought the OP would make people think about. What needs to be done to turn these states around?


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Ah Yes the Liberals I'm so glad I'm not one !


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

What needs to be done to turn these states around?

*

Self restraint and personal responsibility.

Not going to happen, mrskjun.

The citizens of this country think they deserve a gravy train.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

I stopped reading as soon as the "taker vs maker" thing was introduced......such a load of carp and predictable part of the conservative

Actually, it's not. Think about it., For a state whose population is in trouble jobwise, You're going to have more people "taking out" of the system than making money, and putting in. The longer it goes, the worse that it gets, and the less there is, and that's the whole death spiral.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

I didn't take takers as a derogatory term aimed at liberals. I just took it to mean, those that either work for, or are in some way supported by the government.

Who said anything about liberals? The article is offensive because it uses derogatory term for those that either work for or are in some way supported by the government.

What needs to be done to turn these states around?

Stop giving such enormous amounts of welfare to companies in those states. Use that money for worker training, childcare and education; you know, the kinds of things that actually give folks a chance to get out of the hopeless cycle.

Just by the by, it's odd to me that Demi thinks there is nothing to be done about those she considers inherently without self-determination; I always thought Christians believed in the salvation of man, not his foregone damnation. But I admit I'm not up on my theism.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Sorry but the terms "takers "vs "job makers" became part of the conservative vocabulary 'round about the time Mr Romney gave his 47% dissertation. Certainly it was the tone of the Republican campaign.

It would do us all well to remember that those "takers"....police, firefighters, soldiers, teachers, Mrs DH... are all taxpayers too.

I find the term incredibly insulting and indicative of a societal attitude that is incredibly offensive.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Those aren't considered to be "takers", being that they give (at the very least) fair value of themselves for the moneys they receive. They also pay taxes.

Now, let me ask you, Chase, when trying to describe this situation, and how it comes to be, what terms would YOU use to make your case with any clarity? Those receiving vs those donating by mandate?


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

K a request to be a contributor rather than a questioner. Tell us up front sometime what your take is on something these polls are your style I know. They always permit incredible insightful after thoughts. Or should I say insight after other people thought?
It's not a new observation but a continued request!


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

To tell you the truth Bill it I don't understand what situation is being described. The article suggests that government employees are takers.....that includes a whole lot of givers ....so I'm at a loss to understand the point they are trying to make.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

It's not gov't employees. It's those on welfare and unemployment. Now, yes, in order to be eligible for unemployment, you have to first contribute in. But once there are more collecting than donating, the coffers start emptying, and if it continues for too long, it could conceiveably collapse. Same with the welfare system. If there are more people "taking" than "making" (and contributing thry taxes), that's what causes the "death spiral" of the state.

From what I saw, gov't employees were mentioned with reference to their numbers being more than those in the private sector, and you have to admit-- when that happens, it's trouble, fiscally speaking, for the state.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Joe, you wanna say that in English?


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Sorry but the terms "takers "vs "job makers" became part of the conservative vocabulary 'round about the time Mr Romney gave his 47% dissertation. Certainly it was the tone of the Republican campaign.


I find the term incredibly insulting and indicative of a societal attitude that is incredibly offensive.




Chase, you are correct, on both points. Some conservatives are getting a head start in losing the 2016 presidential election. As in -- if it was insulting and helped your candidate lose the last election, let's try it again!


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

I WOULD ask the same question of you nancy, but why bother.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

" A taker is someone who draws money from the government, as an employee, pensioner or welfare recipient. A maker is someone gainfully employed in the private sector."

Bill you are a better person than I. As soon as I read that sentence the article lost all credibility to me.

I refuse to accept the premise that soldiers, teachers, firefighters etc are "takers".....and only those employeed in the private sector, even those making minimum wage and claiming the tax payer paid for earned income credit are "makers"

Let's take California with their extensive border payroll, huge navy base, the LA police and fire departments all defined by this article as "takers."...and yet the huge numbers of legal migrant agricultural workers all "makers". I think not!

There is so much more to this issue than this simplistic article which in my estimation simply plays off the currently fashionable conservative taking points.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

The article may be skewed, but not the concept. The concept is real, and it IS a concern here in Maione.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

"I refuse to accept the premise that soldiers, teachers, firefighters etc are "takers""

Beautifully said, Chase.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Bill you want to ask me a question ask me a full question. I can't guess at whats in your head?


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Why label the residents of any state if the question is a matter of revenue, investments, and expenditures.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

The terminology of "takers" and "makers" is inflammatory when it doesn't need to be so. Unfortunately, the point is lost in the terminology.

"I refuse to accept the premise that soldiers, teachers, firefighters etc are "takers".....and only those employeed in the private sector, even those making minimum wage and claiming the tax payer paid for earned income credit are "makers"."

From an economic standpoint they are net losses. If they are in the system long enough, many can retire with six figure pensions that are tax-free and wholly taxpayer-funded. Plus, they get to draw social security, which is yet another layer of taxpayer support.

In other words, like my neighbors, you can pull down close to $200k per year between pensions and social security, all in taxpayer-funded dollars. In that regard, they are a double loss - a partial loss while working, an almost complete loss when they are retired.

Are they producing economic value commensurate to their costs? Probably not most of them.

One of my neighbors retired early at a $77K pension, based on $100K salary. Slightly too young to draw social security benefits on top of it, she decided she was bored and went back to work. Now she gets her full pension, plus she went back to working at one of her old taxpayer-funded jobs, at a rate commensurate to her years of service and experience. That's a double draw on the taxpayer.

How many taxpayers does it take to support that scenario and all of the people who take advantage of such a situation?

Public employees are too many and too expensive from an economic perspective. General public employees far outnumber soldiers and firefighters. The vast majority add no real value as a consequence of their jobs because they exist to perpetuate bureaucratic, make-work projects which are fiscal liabilities unto themselves.


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RE: Do you live in a death spiral state?

Lionheart I absolutely agree. There is a serious and necessary conversation to be had but articles like this do nothing to spur an intelligent debate.

They are, as you point out, inflammatory and meant to feed a certain mind set rather than analyze a problem.

IMO


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