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"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Posted by ronalawn82 z9FL (ronalawn08@gmail.com) on
Sun, Dec 23, 12 at 10:27

is a good guy with a gun," he (Wayne Lapierre) said.
And my question is "Who is to determine who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?"


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Sun, Dec 23, 12 at 10:31

Lapierre's claim is as false as his pretending to care.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Pathetic reasoning as well and grand for the paranoid peeps among us.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

When a school child hits another child with a rock, is the solution to give all the kids rocks?


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Yes, arm everyone ... the first step down into a free for all, shoot 'em up society. This ain't 1776, folks.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Rare that the NY Daily News & The New York Post agree on anything!


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Thanks, Joe. Awesome headlines. And so accurate.

Think we can get him declared insane and take away his guns? ;-)

(OT: best part is Bradshaw is good to go. Go Giants!)


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

The only thing...is to disarm him. He'll still be 'a bad guy', but he won't have the false courage of a gun.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

jmc01, exquisite follow up / analogy.
chisue, thank you for that input; it reminds me of an evaluation of the character of Scaramanga in Ian Fleming's "Man with the Golden Gun".


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is for him not to have a gun.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a mid-MI (My Page) on
    Sun, Dec 23, 12 at 17:17

You have a bad guy with a gun -

He's the one trying to kill you or your family.

You have a good guy with a gun -

He's the cop or other law enforcement officer, the building security officer, the body guard, or the armed law abiding citizen who refuses to be a victim.

Scenario: You and your family must act in the immediate to resist whatever the bad guy wishes to do to you (refuse to be a victim), or wait and allow him to make manifest his intentions - murder, rape, torture (submit to being a victim).

What offers the most hope - a cell phone, pepper spray, a whistle, screaming, trying to run away and hope he's a bad shot, a set of car keys held strategically between the knuckles, a club, hoping real hard that a cop will show up before murder can be perpetrated, denial that it's happening, or a good guy with a gun? (insert other if you think of something)

Instead of maligning someone for the statement "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun", which is as likely a cops & robbers thing as it is an armed citizen and a cold-blooded killer, why not admit that it is entirely logical, or point to why it is not? It's really pretty simple - more hand-flapping, ululating, and no substance here.

Actually, that statement (as attributed to W LaPierre) is a favorite of law enforcement officers and they have been using it for years and years. Tell me please, when you're panicking, desperately in need of help because you're confronted with a potential murderer with a gun, and have just called 911, what are you hoping for? - your attorney to arrive with a bullhorn to try to talk your assailant into surrendering because he could go to jail, or a good guy with a gun? Can you think of anyone else you might rather have come to your aid in that predicament? A priest to administer last rites, perhaps?

There is absolutely no sense in the thought that "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is for him not to have a gun."

Al


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Yup, I want a shoot-out whenever and wherever some gun-packing citizen decides to take someone on.

'The criminal' is just some guy until he has a gun he can use, and use it he will if you rattle his cage.

tapla -- Are you often confronted by criminals, with or without guns? Cops don't want Joe Citizen armed and itching to play at doing what they have extensive and ongoing training to do.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Two years ago, in Lakewood, WA, four armed police officers were in a coffee shop, getting ready to go on their shift. An armed man entered the shop and killed all four. These "good guys with guns" didn't have a chance. The only way a good guy with a gun would be able to "stop" a bad guy with a gun is for that good guy to know, before the bad guy starts shooting, who the bad guy is and what the bad guy plans to do so they can get their gun(s) out to shoot first. I'm sure that has caused a lot of bad guys from killing anyone with their semi-automatic guns. (sarcasm).

Maybe a good guy can stop a bad guy AFTER he's already started shooting, and not as many people will be killed. MAYBE. But to keep him from killing multitudes of people at all, the bad guy must not have access to semi-automatic guns. Tax the heck out of the ammo, keep ammo clips to a small number, register everyone with a gun after an extensive back-ground check, keep a record of the ballistics so the bullets fired can be traced to a particular gun and then to the owner. None of these things ban a semi-automatic gun, but would sure make it more difficult for a "bad guy" to slaughter people before the "good guy" can get to them and stop them.

But, I'm all for banning semi-automatics instead. They serve no purpose but to kill people. Note: I DID NOT say ban all guns.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Is there some information on how long the rampage in the school lasted? How many people can get killed in just a few minutes ... before some gun-toting guard or teacher or official can grab their gun and go running to "handle" the situation?

Are situations like this so drawn out that this would be effective?


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Al, please realize that your "what-if" scenario could be couched in terms fitting other possible personal or community disasters, ones much more likely to endanger life or limb.

Dockside's bit of history also belies your arguments, specifically the chances of not having the opportunity to reach and deploy one's firearm.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

esh_ga -- I believe the police arrived in ten minutes or less. THEY are the 'good guys with guns'. They are thoroughly and continuously trained to use (and not use) lethal force. It's their JOB. They don't want Eager Joe Citizen -- or his weapons -- added to the mix.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a mid-MI (My Page) on
    Sun, Dec 23, 12 at 19:10

Chisu - I have had a concealed carry license for 31 years. In that time, I have stopped 2 potentially bad situations in which I felt my life was being threatened with only the warning that I was armed. Both occurred in vacant buildings, one involved a vagrant sleeping in a building I was going to board up who was advancing on me with a 2x4 as I retreated. He was arrested. The other incident involved my being in an upstairs apartment doing some measuring for a restoration company - no opportunity for retreat. Someone came in. When I went to look, a man was advancing up the stairs telling me I was going to loan him money. I could see a person on the porch at the bottom of the stairs who was facing the street - a look-out. I was standing at the top of the stairs with my hand on my pistol, but never drew it. I told the intruder he had no business being in the building, that I had a gun, and I WOULD shoot him. Amid curses and threats, he left, and I called the police. I watched where the intruder went from the window. When the police arrived, I told them what happened and pointed out where he went, they just said that they knew who he was, that it was a parole violation, and he would be going back to jail. I watched them go to the house, and that's the last I heard.

Another recent incident involved a man who threatened to shoot me because I was in his back yard due to my mistake. It's a long story, but I was there because a customer gave me the wrong address & said there would be no one there while I was measuring. I was armed (bad neighborhood) and he pushed me twice as I retreated, but he had no gun that I could see. I called the police. They asked me if I wanted to file a complaint, and I said not unless you can't make him understand that threatening someone's life can have severe consequences. You might note that if I DIDN'T have a gun, I would have defended myself the second time he pushed me. I almost did, but the knowledge that I was carrying prevented any escalation of the situation. I just wanted it to be over.

One other time I was glad to be armed was the first day I was allowed to carry concealed. I was at a farm to offer an estimate, and the farmer's wife was away from the farmyard. There were 2 German Shepherds that ran to me as I approached the house to knock. I backed up against a closed overhead door so the door was at my back and the wide door jamb at one side. The dogs were snarling, popping their teeth, spit flying, with their head inches from my crotch. I decided that if I was bitten, I would shoot the dogs, but that wasn't necessary. After a minute or so, the farmer's wife arrived on a lawn tractor and called off the dogs - end of story.

Any cop, any time you ask, will condone the private citizens action of legally defending his own life or the life of innocents. Period. The cops that came to the apartment call said I should have shot the ******. They don't want you out playing vigilante and taking the law into your own hands, but they believe in and approve of meeting deadly force with deadly force when confronted with same. Ask one ...... and if they disagree, ask them why THEY are so intent on ensuring they have the overwhelming advantage in force.

The debate shouldn't be whether a private citizen can or can't, is or isn't capable of defending himself; it's whether or not he should be forced to submit to anyone, simply because they think they have greater mite, or be allowed the opportunity to control his fate as HE sees fit. You think everything is fine because you have never been in a situation where your life or the life of someone important was threatened. That situation changes people - it gives them the determination to never be put in the situation where someone else holds your destiny in their hands. Some people recognize that they could be victimized at any time, and take steps to guard against it. You call it paranoia, I call it being prepared.

Police officers take the same NRA training to teach concealed weapons classes that I do. Their experience gives them greater depth and more stories to tell, but we follow the same outline and teach the same skills - there are a LOT of cops teaching CCW classes. Actually, the hardest class AND test I ever took was the one for CCW certification. There were about 50 people in the class, several were cops, and only 14 were certified. It's no joke.

Many of you think that a concealed gun makes people feel empowered. That might be so for a very short time, and particularly in younger licensees. After a very short time, the responsibility sinks in more completely, and anyone that has a permit to carry is actually less likely to commit any act of violence than someone who isn't licensed to carry.

Al


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

"Two years ago, in Lakewood, WA, four armed police officers were in a coffee shop, getting ready to go on their shift. An armed man entered the shop and killed all four. These "good guys with guns" didn't have a chance."

& they never do, & neither does anybody else.

Many years ago, I sold some property to a guy who wrote down his job description as "#2 man on the (name of city) SWAT team".

I asked him,
"What does the #2 man do that's different from anybody else on a SWAT team?"

"He shoots the bad guy after the bad guy takes down the #1 man."

SWAT teams know they cannot react fast enough to stop a bullet;
nobody else can, either.

"Good guys with guns" has a catchy sound, but as a plan, it's feckless to the point of insane.

The best plan to stop a bad guy with a gun is to take it away from him before he hurts somebody.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

I remembered my cousin had sent me an article concerning
a neighbor of hers who was in very bad health and had shot a home invader.

I pulled it up on google and this is what I found.
There must be thousands and thousands of similiar stories.

Most on here are against having a gun in their home
because they think they are safe.
My cousins neighbor was on oxygen she said and he wouldn't have stood a chance without a weapon.

No one is safe.

After reading page after page of this stuff......I fully
understand why people are in such a fizz over the guns issue.
They are not informed enough to KNOW they will not have to
get rid of their guns in their homes.
They are scared so they need educated regarding the facts
of gun control.
***********************************************************
Homeowner shoots intruderwww.wpsdlocal6.com/.../Homeowner-shoots-intruder-
Mar 19, 2012 � Homeowner shoots intruder ... MARSHALL COUNTY, Ky. ... The two men had kicked in the door of his Brewers-area home and one was ...
**********************************************************
Boone County homeowner shoots, kills intruder : Northern Kentucky ...www.wlwt.com/...kentucky/...County-homeowner-shoots...intruder/
Sep 3, 2012 � 92-year-old homeowner shoots, kills intruder ... Boone County Police say a man broke into the basement of a home in the 15000 block of Violet .....
********************************************************

Charleston man shoots half-naked home intruder, police say ...
Nov 17, 2012 � Charleston man shoots half-naked home intruder, police say ... Jack Boggess, of 7th Avenue, called Kanawha County Metro 911 at about 3 a.m. and told dispatchers he shot Darin Lanning, 33, ....
**********************************************************

Man chases intruder after south KC break-in - Worldnews.com.../Man_chases_intruder_af

Nov 14, 2012 � Home-invasion - Wheelchair-bound man shoots intruder ... A wheelchair-bound Marion County man was ready for anything when two ..... 92-year-old kills home intruder Elderly Kentucky man takes matters into his ..... Wild Bill Hickok was a deputy marshal at Fort Riley and a marshal at Hays and Abilene.
**********************************************************

92-year-old Verona man shoots intruder at home - Worldnews.com.../92yearold_Verona_man_shoots_intruder_at_home..
Sep 3, 2012 � The 92-year-old Boone County farmer walked eight paces to get his loaded ... WWII veteran who fatally shot intruder at his Kentucky farm home ...
**********************************************************

Man protects home, shoots intruder - WKRN, Nashville News ...www.wkrn.com/man-protects-home-shoots-intruders
Feb 5, 2012 � Metro police are continuing to investigate after a homeowner shot at two ... Man protects home, shoots intruder - WKRN, Nashville News, Nashville Weather and Sports ..


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

I admit to have been licensed once to carry a concealed weapon and was trained by an off-duty LAPD officer. He scared the hell out of us about the responsibilities involved in being armed and serving as first-line defense against criminal intentions. As civilians, we were less likely to get as much grief as a serving officer if we discharged the weapon but if we made a mistake, we would not have the law on our side. This was some 35 or more years ago. He was especially concerned with domestic disturbances as a high-casualty opportunities. He cited the arsenals of personal weapons often contained within homes and apartments.

List of kills by homeowners protecting their castles always bring out skepticism in me. Glad I don't live in KT and Tenn. making my living as a repo man.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

al, your examples and other examples posted of people defending themselves or their property with guns have absolutely nothing to do with semi-automatic guns used by the "bad guys" to kill many people in just a couple of minutes. Your examples apply to banning all guns or concealed carry permits.

When someone goes to a public place, with the specific intent to kill as many people as possible, with no concern for his own life, your concealed weapon won't stop them.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a mid-MI (My Page) on
    Sun, Dec 23, 12 at 21:44

Dock - read the topic of the OP. "Gun" = nonspecific.

Al


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

No, the OP is about GOOD and BAD guys. Get a grip, Al :)


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

When someone goes to a public place, with the specific intent to kill as many people as possible, with no concern for his own life, your concealed weapon won't stop them.

It may or may not. But I'll guarantee you there'll be a much better chance of that person being stopped. Let me ask you-- In Aurora, Co., there were several other theaters in the area that were not "gun free", including atleast one other that was showing the same movie. Why do you suppose he chose that specific theater? It's not a matter of arming every single person. It's the THREAT that they MAY be armed.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

We don't know why that guy picked that specific theatre. Since he's still alive, the prosecutors can ask him.

It might well have been that that theatre was the easiest to get into the back door. It also might be the closest to his house. We don't know.

But to jump to the conclusion that he picked this one because it prohibited guns might just be wishful thinking for those promoting the plenty-of-guns-everywhere-is-the-solution-to-gun-violence agenda.

And lets keep in mind again that the guy was dressed in SWAT gear, gas mask, in the dark, throwing smoke bombs, in the middle of a shoot 'em up scene with really loud sound effects.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

But to jump to the conclusion that he picked this one because it prohibited guns might just be wishful thinking for those promoting the plenty-of-guns-everywhere-is-the-solution-to-gun-violence agenda.

And completely discounting it is just as naive.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Wow, not something you hear in Canada "Gun Free" Theaters. Thank goodness all of our Theaters are "gun free".

~Ann


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

It's crazy for the NRA nuts to think anyone could have disarmed the Aurora shooter. If there were armed people in the theater it would have been chaotic. He had smoke bombs , a vest, goggles. In a situation as crazy as that, police wouldn't know who the shooter was if there were multiple shots being fired. If armed guards are so effective, how come the death toll at Columbine was so high? .


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".

So who stops the"good guy with the gun" when he becomes a "bad guy with a gun"?

How does one make sure the "good guy with the gun" never becomes a "bad guy"?

How does one make sure that the "good guy with a gun", doesn't "just snap" over too much pressure, too much to deal with and can't take it any more and goes on a rampage. Remember now, he was a "good guy with a gun" until he became a bad guy with one.

Or the paranoia of the "good guy" to protect his home and life, has him pull out his loaded armed weapon to protect it, plays "ready, aim, shoot," and kills his wife, daughter, son, etc. because the came into the house late at night and he forgot they where out, or some such thing.

Remember know, he was a "good guy with gun", till he shot his family member or whomever it was he killed. Now what is he? a Good guy that made a mistake, a bad guy with gun, or just plain stupid and not responsible with gun?

Who determines who is and isn't responsible enough to own gun?

So the idea is that there are too many guns in the hands of the bad guys so we need to get more guns out there into the hands of good guys to make sure that there are more good guys with guns than bad guys.

Makes about as much sense as the same conservative insanity about sex education, birth control, etc.
You know, the more they know about it the more they will do it, but when it comes to drinking and driving, taking drugs, it's the opposite. The more they know, the more they won't do.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Why is this issue only a serious problem in the States? What is with American culture that creates people who want to own automatic weapons? If you say it's the level of crime and the number of mentally disturbed people...what causes that?

Is there something in the water down there?


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Chase, it's because the crazy gun culture has changed America forever, and there is no going back. I'm sure we have the same amount of mentally ill people in this country as do other places. We have LaPierre for example and all the thousands who instead of being horrified by the deaths of the sweetest most innocent children , they rush out to the gun stores to load up on more assault rifles.Pry THESE from my cold dead hands. Fireman today were slaughtered by guns as they put out a fire...every day a new headline.

If I was young and didn't have family living near me, I'd move back to Switzerland where my family came from 305 years ago.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

As I mentioned in another thread, it isn't the mentally ill that are committing these crimes.

I really don't understand how American's can be so different from Canadians when it comes to this issue.

~Ann


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

I can't say it is true, but there is a sign circulating on Facebook that since the Columbine shooting in 1999, there have been 31 school shootings in the US and only 14 in the whole rest of the world combined.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

The bad guy would be Mr, Spangler..Webster NY, lengthly criminal record..kills two volunteer firfighters before taking his own cowardly life today.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

One of my two best friends almost killed her adult son when he came through the basement window late at night, having forgotten his key and not wanting to wake his mother. At the last minute, she realized she was about to shoot her son. She got rid of the gun.

Another friend heard some noises in the middle of the night, got his shotgun and was ready to shoot the person he saw moving in his home and then realized it was his wife.

How many people actually shoot before realizing they are killing or maiming a family member?


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Thank goodness all of our Theaters are "gun free". >

And thank God all of ours AREN'T.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

More of your radical ideas.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Right, heri. I'M radical. Merry Christmas..


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on Mon, Dec 24, 12 at 11:54

"...If I was young and didn't have family living near me, I'd move back to Switzerland where my family came from 305 years ago."

Well, lily, that's just too funny ;D

Why Switzerland Is A Red-Herring In The Gun Control Debate
Adam Taylor : Dec. 14, 2012, 2:32 PM
AP

"There's one country that comes up time and time again in the gun control debate, often used as a paradox that proves American gun laws do not have to be tightened: Switzerland.

The neutral country has a tradition of a gun in every closet, and ranks amongst the highest levels of gun ownership in the world � with estimate of as many as 4.5 million guns in a country of just 7.9 million people (few countries have more guns per capita � the US and Yemen are two).

However, gun related crime is remarkably low, with only 24 gun murders in 2009 � 0.3 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants, compared to 2007 figures in the US of 4.2 per 100,000 people, according to Time Magazine.

However, attempts to compare the US to Switzerland gloss over the vast differences between the two countries.

For example, the nature of gun ownership in Switzerland is tied to the military. Switzerland has a very small standing army, and citizens are expected to act as militiamen should the country be invaded. Every 18-30 years old Swiss male between has to do three months' military training, and many more regular refresher courses. The majority of guns are army-issued, though rules on private gun ownership are very lax compared to other European countries.

This is also a country with a population smaller than New York City. According to 2011 data from the IMF, Switzerland has a GDP per capita of $83,073, almost double that of the US, or other European countries like the UK or France. The CIA says 6.9 percent of the country lives below the poverty line, compared to 15.1 in the US or 14 in the UK.

Finally, it would be wrong to ignore that gun control has become a hot topic in Switzerland in recent years. Last year a vote was held on whether the country should end the practice of keeping army-issue firearms at home and tighten over private gun ownership restrictions. While the plans were rejected by 57% of voters, the movement appears to be growing. Switzerland's notion of direct democracy (citizens are able to call constitutional and legislative referendums, but only on laws passed by the legislature) means that more votes are likely in the future.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/switzerlands-gun-laws-are-a-red-herring-2012-12#ixzz2G0hfCf1w


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

0.3 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants, compared to 2007 figures in the US of 4.2 per 100,000 people...

That is the only relevant statistic in the article, which rightly states that making any other comparisons between the two countries is irrelevant.

Best wishes
Jon


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Just your ho-ho-ho-humble opinion, Jon.

Happy Christmas!

;D


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

'"good guy" to protect his home and life, has him pull out his loaded armed weapon to protect it, plays "ready, aim, shoot," and kills his wife, daughter, son, etc. because the came into the house late at night and he forgot they were out'

My parents & my brothers loved to hunt.

My parents used to go on hunting "dates" before they were married, & they kept it up their whole married life.

My brothers went right along with them.

They all had hunting rifles.
After my father died, my mother bought a handgun for protection.

My brother, who was staying with her for a few days,came in late one night & fumbled around for his key

When the lights came on, he yelled,
"Don't shoot, Mother! It's me!"

This story was told at family get-togethers for years & everybody laughted except me, & I still don't think the story was funny.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

When the lights came on, he yelled,
"Don't shoot, Mother! It's me!"

Fortunately there was an extra second or 2 there for your mother to register what your brother said, vs the "shoot first and ask questions later".

I'm with you Sylvia, there is nothing funny about the story and I'm betting they still have all those guns too.

One less second and it would have been your brothers funeral and no one would be laughing at this story.

Just another on the thousands of stories, all the same, many of them ending up with the death of a loved one because there was a gun to use on the "supposed intruder", instead of just calling the cops.

Of course the NRA will have some kind of "blame the loved one" mentality for the cause of the situation of the tragic death of a loved one that was presumed to be "an intruder".

The last thing we or this country needs is more guns on the streets in the hands of anyone, least of all putting them in the hands of the so called, "good guys", They go around killing innocent people as well, in the name of "intruder".


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

"Thank goodness all of our Theaters are "gun free".

And thank God all of ours AREN'T."

How ludicrous. Yeah, I'm sure our Heavenly Father is proud to have a hand in making sure there are theatres for gun nuts.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

I was reading a local story about a town hall type meeting in my area with a politician on the subject of gun control. One of the participants was reported as saying words to the effect that "Hitler and Stalin instituted gun control and we know where that led".

So I did a quick search at Google.

"Hitler instituted gun control."

It's worth a glance if you're interested in dictators, totalitarian regimes and gun control.

My time is limited right now, but I went to what I figured might be somewhat reliable and not a gun nut site on the subject.

Wikipedia: Gun Politics in Germany

Dave, you remember our comments at the end of the Gun choice thread where I'd said,

"If I were a Jew living in Europe in the 1940's, I'd wish to own a gun."

And you'd responded with, "So even if the Jews in Hitler's Germany were all packin' heat, they'd have had trouble against a Panzer division."

It looks like the Jews never had a chance to find out....

From the Wikipedia article,

"The 1938 German Weapons Act....

Jews were forbidden from the manufacturing or ownership of firearms and ammunition.[6]

Under both the 1928 and 1938 acts, gun manufacturers and dealers were required to maintain records with information about who purchased guns and the guns' serial numbers. These records were to be delivered to a police authority for inspection at the end of each year.

On November 11, 1938, the Minister of the Interior, Wilhelm Frick, passed Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons. This regulation effectively deprived all Jews of the right to possess firearms or other weapons.[7]"

I wish I had more time....

Hay


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

I'd counter that with the examples of excessive force here: eg Waco, Ruby Ridge, and countless SWAT team uses, where gvt uses overwhelming force when the 'bad guys' have guns. The more guns, the more force.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Davd, that's actually an argument FOR the 2nd amendment. It's the whole reason for it.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Wow, what logic!


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

bill_vincent wrote,

that's actually an argument FOR the 2nd amendment. It's the whole reason for it.

Defending yourself against the government?


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Absolutely. Just think - if the German people had all been armed they could have stopped Hitler and the Nazi Party from taking control of the country. If they had wanted to . . .

The parallels with Obama and the Democrats should be obvious to you: the uniforms, the slogans, the hatred of Jews and blacks and other minorities, the persecution of homosexuals, the illegal invasion and occupation of foreign territories, the extensive use of the death penalty, the criminalisation and incarceration of minorities, the use of secret concentration camps for unconvicted 'enemies of the state', the illegal use of torture . . .

Unfortunately, the people in Germany agreed with the Nazis - not like Bill and his buddies who would fight tooth and nail and assault rifle against any of the above practices being employed by an American government. Wouldn't he?

Best wishes
Jon


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

"If they had wanted to . . .

...

Unfortunately, the people in Germany agreed with the Nazis-"

Really? Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but are you suggesting somehow that the German people are really so different than the rest of the people of the world?

That something like that can't happen here because we have good Democrats led by the likes of Obama who will ensure that our government could never unleash terror on its own people?

Is that what you're saying?

The Jewish people of Germany will never know if being armed would have helped them. They sure don't act like they feel that being unarmed is the way to go today.

Me, if something like this were to happen here, I'd like to have a gun as I fight my way to the Canadian border, where, of course, we absolutely do know that something like that could never happen. (And, of course, the good Canadians will fend off any of the bad guys who are coming after me.)

Seems like only a few years ago, (5?), that you might have been singing a different tune.

If, on average, over the past 100 years, one million people a year have died at the hands of their own government...

I fear what my government potentially can do more than I fear what my next door neighbor can do.

Hay


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

I fear what my government potentially can do more than I fear what my next door neighbor can do.

And there you have it. That is just so sad.

And for the Jews of Germany, it was both their government and their next door neighbours.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

If, on average, over the past 100 years, one million people a year have died at the hands of their own government..."

And there you have it. That is just so sad.

Hay


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How many?

"it was both their government and their next door neighbours"

Do you happen to have any statistics about the number of Jews that died at the hands of their neighbors before the government got into the act?

Take your time.

I got some work to do.

Hay


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

I don't do statistics.

Who elected the government? Just who *were* the National Socialists if not the German people? "Oh, they were all Austrians"?? Nazism was not imposed on Germany, as could be claimed for Stalinist Russia or Maoist China, it represented the wishes of the population at that time. The Germans have accepted this for decades and have had to come to terms with it. They are a very different people now, and yes, people do change and evolve.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

I get the Obama (Hitler) going to take our guns ideology. I understood that since the tparty started their fear movement. Anytime you want to scare people drag out Hitler.

What confuses me is how can any American really believe if they have a gun they have a fighting chance of holding off the government if they are coming for yah.

Before Bush enacted the Patriot Act we had waco, Ruby Ridge etc. you saw what happened in those situations. Now we have drones, roaming electronic Surveillance, the government have the ability to know when you went to the bathroom and what you are reading, even what you are posting on this little forum. You do not have a snowball chance in He&&. Just how far do anyone think they are going to get with their little arsenal of weapons?

I have my gun for protection if some idiot sees a petite women living alone and think I am a easy target in my home. If I had to give it up I would not feel I was going to die tomorrow. It seems there are many that feel they are so powerless if they do not have a gun.

I do not fear that Obama will try to disarm everyone and have no doubt there are going to be some gun law changes and I feel there should be some changes. I do not doubt there will be changes because we are a society that will not stand for 6 and 7 year olds being gunned down so a few can have what they want at any cost.

If you do not think that there will be change you only have to look at the last election, the gay rights movement, marijuana. It is going to happen. If you do not think you can defend yourself hand to hand, man to man I suggest you get some self defense training and man up.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Numerous other researchers agree that democratic rules and democratic political structures place limits on the
decisions and actions of elites around the use of repression against their fellow citizens, whereas autocratic elites are not effectively constrained. Once in place, democratic rules, structures and accountability, even limited ones, reduce the likelihood of armed conflict and effectively eliminate the risk of either politicide or genocide.

This usually quoted source for your quote notes the absence from the statistic of liberal democracies as opposed to authoritarian ones. What is somewhat amusing is the idea that this situation would be improved by electing an even more right-wing government.

Here is a link that might be useful: at the hands of their own government...


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

"I fear what my government potentially can do more than I fear what my next door neighbor can do.

And there you have it. That is just so sad. "

I agree Jon, it is so sad to think that citizens in a free and democratic country feel this way. I don't get the paranoia...and glad I don't


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Posted by bill_vincent Central Maine (billvincent@hotmail.com) on Tue, Dec 25, 12 at 11:34
Davd, that's actually an argument FOR the 2nd amendment. It's the whole reason for it.

Bill, do you know of any incidence where the suspicion or knowledge that someone was armed stopped the police/FBI/ATF/State Police etc from carrying out a legal search or arresting someone? Or that it made a judge hesitate to issue a warrant?

Or had any effect at all other than make sure that the arresting law enforcement had more than enough personnel and firepower to overwhelm their suspect?

On the contrary, there are countless examples of police firing dozens of rounds at a suspect who they think might be armed.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

I don't get the paranoia either.

~Ann


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

nor do I. As a Jew, I don't understand it. As a jew who doesn't know most of one side of a family because they where exterminated under the Nazis control, I don't get it either.

The idea, even implied, that if the Jews in Germany had guns, they might have lived, is offensive, to say the least, and a total lack of understanding of what actually happened, what led up to and how it was so easy for the Nazis to accomplish their goals "against the Jews".

The fact that Jews where banned from buying, owning, actually manufacturing guns did not have anything to do with it.

And, it is highly offensive to anyone with any knowledge of WWII, the holocaust, to use this to suggest a reason to back up the NRA's insane beliefs.

Paranoia, anti semitism lead to the holocaust, not a certain segment of the population not able to own, to have guns.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

I'm going to reiterate my one true thought on gun control, people misconstrue the 2nd amendment to fit their ideals. But to know when we'll need a militia is a moving target. We cannot get ready after the fact. It's a finer line than most think. I honestly cannot envision needing a gun, but by the time I can, it'll be too late. I don't own one. I've only fired one once. It was enough. Fire comes out of the end. Scary thing!


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

And then, in the movie? all these socialists and communists come flying in on helicopters and try to take over America! Somehow, the largest, best equipped military in the history of mankind wasn't able to stop them!!!

But a well-regulated militia, composed of largely over-weight, middle-aged men who get out of breath climbing stairs, pulled out their semi-automatic weapons with extended clips and DROVE THEM COMMIES AWAY!!!!

USA!!!USA!!!USA!!!


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Wonderful, David!! Thanks for my best Christmas laugh :) You can bet the Last Man Standing will be there, holding them off with his grouting gun . . .

Best wishes
Jon


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

David, you forgot the intrepid bunch of teenagers meeting the Red Menace at the beach (Red Dawn Rising??)


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

all these socialists and communists come flying in on helicopters and try to take over America! Somehow, the largest, best equipped military in the history of mankind wasn't able to stop them!!!

David, surely you've heard this before -- Carter ruined the military, and Obama wants to do the same. (We'll skip the part where the over-priced F-22s are all grounded because no one seems to be able to solve the problem of the oxygen flow for the pilot, and the next generation of fighter jets will be over-budget, and behind schedule due to necessary corrections to design flaws.)


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

littleone, I'm glad you spoke up and corrected the distorted vision of the holocaust held by the NRA types--who bend everything to fit their political agenda.

Kate


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

David that was so good. It is exactly what I imagine they believe. They are going to hold off that gumbet take over. After all they are manly men with guns.

They knew how to avoid being Germany, Ain't no Hitler going to haul them off to a concentration camp because they got guns.

"I'll give you my gun when you pry (or take) it from my cold, dead hands" " is a slogan popularized by the National Rifle Association (NRA) on a series of bumper stickers.

Well if they can find your hand when the gumbet is finished blowing you up they will be happy to grant that wish.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

In the face of any socialist and commie attacks and the fighting on the beaches, in the streets, in the hills, and fields, all that camouflage would likely have some new brown stains.

Who takes responsibility for the regulation of these disperate militias? Can't believe it would be the militias themselves since "meaningful" regulation doesn't seem to be part of the deal. Not the NRA which nixes any regulation whatsoever.

Congress? The states? What does the machismo ribbon look like?


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

You seem to be forgetting we've had militias before. Historians don't agree on what they looked/acted like, but they did exist and operated long before now. It wouldn't be a first. But I do hope it was the last time it is needed--that we can resolve our differences without arms. It took more than words and actions in our history. And we all know what we're doomed to repeat.

Here is a link that might be useful: militia in the past


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

Militias are a American as Pecan pie, at least up until the Civil War and the decades following while the Wild West was settled and the indigenes put down and herded into reservations.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

"if they can find your hand when the gumbet is finished blowing you up they will be happy to grant that wish."

In the movie Men in Black, a mean old farmer with a gun (shotgun or rifle) stands over a spacecraft that has crash landed in the farmer's field.

The spacecraft is deeply lodged in the crater created by the crash.

The unseen alien says,
"Give me your weapon."

The farmer snarls,
"Over my dead body!"

& the alien replies,
"Your terms are acceptable"
& sucks the farmer down into the crater.

This post was edited by sylviatexas on Wed, Dec 26, 12 at 16:37


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

"I don't do statistics."

And there you have it. That is just so sad....

You've all got the wrong image of me.

"Me, if something like this were to happen here, I'd like to have a gun as I fight my way to the Canadian border...

I ain't aiming to be the dying hero putting up the gallant last fight when the Commies, "progressives" and Socialists living amongst us go on a rampage.

I'm expecting Bill will play that role in my movie. He'll hold them off just long enough for me to slip across the Canadian border.

I guess if we're using movies and invading space aliens as a basis for our understanding of these complex issues...

I like to think that I'm going to be kind of a cross between Indiana Jones, Steve McQueen, (The "King of Cool", the "anti-hero"), and a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court in my version. Me and a few pretty women, making our way to the Canadian border. I can see it now.

I'll probably never even need to take my Daisy BB Gun out of its holster, but, just in case, it'll be nice to know it's there.


I'm not at all imagining me in a Waco or a Ruby Ridge scenario. Not me, baby. No way, no how.

But, for the more gallant, I do have the images of the Libyan uprising: guys piled into the back of an old beat up Toyota truck bringing down rich and powerful Gaddafi and his F-65-73737 jet fighters.

If I need an armored truck, me and my welding buddy got it all figured out.

And while the rest of you will be roaming the streets here, flashing your peace signs and hoping for the best, I'll be riding across the Canadian border in style.


Yehaw!!!

Hay


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

The exchange programs still work:

LOS ANGELES -- Long lines of cars and people formed Wednesday to take advantage of a guns-for-groceries exchange program that was moved up in the wake of the Connecticut school shooting.

Police officers filled bins with more than 1,500 rifles and handguns outside the Los Angeles Memorial Sports Arena and the Van Nuys Masonic Temple, according to the Los Angeles Daily News.

The anonymous buyback program allowed weapons to be turned in with no questions asked. Handguns, rifles and shotguns could be exchanged for $100 Ralphs grocery store gift cards. Assault weapons earned a $200 card.


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RE: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun

I saw that clip yesterday about people in long lines waiting to turn their guns in for cash. My little non working handgun will be there when they have that buy back program here.

I also read that so many mothers across the country are throwing out their kids' toy guns. I must have been way ahead of myself since my son was not allowed any toy guns when he was little. Like the kids who are taught by their families that killing animals is fun and we do it in every season, my kid was taught that animals are living breathing entities and we don't kill them and we don't have guns to shoot people. It worked. He never killed a thing in his life and never owned or even fired a fun. Yes, he's manly and a uber athlete unlike many of the fat hunters here in PA who have heart attacks lugging out their dead kill.


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