They are not saying on the news yet, but it appears around 20 kids have been shot.

This is just too much. It's time to ban guns. Now.

At least one child is dead now. I guess some say guns don't kill children.........

-Ron-

We go over this and over this, and very few seem to understand that laws are only effective if everyone follows them. Clearly, this is not the case. Murder is already against the law, but it just happened.

I'm not willing to throw our rights and freedoms out the window out of fear or anger at the actions of one or two other individuals.

It's horrifying and sad that children were involved, but banning guns is not the answer. Do you think that shooting would not have happened if there were a gun ban? Think again. Weapons are a part of our world, our culture, and will remain so regardless of laws or restrictions.

Guns are already a part of our world... it can't be taken back. We can't go back to a world without weapons, as much as we'd like to. In spite of the shock at what just happened, we have to remain calm and think it through.

My personal observation is that no citizen needs to own or carry any weapon that can discharge a large amount of ammunition in short order... or machine guns, or automatic weapons.

Obama just said that today is not the day to talk about gun control. He's absolutely correct. Such talks need to be held without such commotion, without anger or fear, with reason and cool heads prevailing.

I'm just waiting for the argument for putting MORE guns out there...

"If the principal, vice-principal, teachers and janitor were armed, they coulda shot back at this guy"

Hell, might as well arm the children too... it's never too early to teach these kids to shoot bad guys, right?

We need to get real about this. There has never been this much violence in this country. It's time to stop this insanity.

The shooter kills 28 people, then kills himself and that's it. And then another one takes his place and does it again. There are also the Stand Your Ground idiots who apparently think they can kill someone who looks at them the wrong way.

They are saying there's a second shooter who was caught. Dressed in black. Shades of Columbine. Except these were little kids.

Time to stop this once and for all.

True , so time to stop calling it GUN control and call it PEOPLE control. Strict controls aren't need on the gun, they are needed on the persons who owns the guns.

One only needs to look at the escalating amount of gun violence to understand that something is very, very wrong and it needs to be addressed.

One of the viewer comments on CNN was "the vast majority of mass shootings that have taken place are from people who obey the law when they purchase weapons."

Well YES! That doesn't clue people in that not everyone should have the right to own a gun? That stricter controls on gun ownership and purchase are needed?

Gun control? Good luck at that.

Thanks, chase, for the change of language. Now we can quit having stupid arguments about whether guns or people shoot other people.

Where's bill? Cant have gun discussion without his loud belligerance elbowing out everyone else, can we?

Kate

This was planned. I think it's a case of our military not in control, a case of revenge for some unknown reason, or possibly a case of gang related/personal revenge.

Though, how you think an entire nation will simply hand in all weapons is beyond me...

If I have offended you, good. Your attitude and statement are beyond offensive.

It's been done, when a country has finally become so nauseated with this kind of slaughter. All the same arguments were deployed on both sides, and yet now nobody would think of going back. Same thing with controls on hunting.

How much longer will rich, Western nations go on pretending to be intrepid frontier states, red in tooth and claw? Want meat? Go to the dam**ed supermarket like everybody else. Put your toys away and grow up.

We know what that means. The kids were led past the bodies of their classmates. The police were sparing them the horror of seeing that.

I had this very thought. If the kids/teachers had been armed (isn't that the usual pro gun response) then this would not have happened. I am sure every parent wants their child sitting in a classroom with a teacher that has a gun strapped to their side. Talk about behaving in class. And then there is always the possibility of the same said teacher having their own "meltdown".

Why is anyone surprised about the "clinging to the gun crowd" when we read posters saying someone will get their food when "the ammo is gone".

They will give up their guns when all the babies have "cold dead hands".

The BEST HELP you guys could EVER give the parents of those dead children is to FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL to change the laws and the mindset and the total crap that surrounds this whole "right to bear arms"...

I wish you the best. I want to see the day when these shootings are no longer making headlines every couple of months.

This is all mystifyingly horrendous. All that "motivation seeking" doesn't seem to do a da**ed thing to prevent the next act of savagery. What drives these people to kill seems to be as varied as the people themselves. And what on earth has anyone learned from staring at Charles Manson through the bars for decades? Better these killers should be dead.

Reminds me of breaking a clock so the inside is the outside; look at all the spilled bits and parts. Do you then understand the nature of time?

Attempts to understand killers are important. One day, perhaps it will lead to finding and treating killers before they kill.

But in the meantime... we either find a way to limit access to weapons, or we get comfortable with mass shootings like this.

Don't know why life has so little value to some. don't know a solution either. Maybe someday things (and people) will change.

Why?

Possibly notoriety?

Wasn't that a key factor in the theatre shootings and others? 15 minutes of fame by becoming "The Worst" mass murderer? That guy had planned it out, bulletproof vest, military gear, more ammo and weapons than a small army needs?

Dunno. Wish I understood.

Here it is. It refers to citizen militias when people were called on to bear arms to fight the British.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The clause that modifies the sentence is NEVER taken into account by the second amendment fanatics.

The second amendment refers to a different time and place in our history and needs to be changed.

It's easier for a mentally-ill person to buy firearms to kill others than it is for that same person to get appropriate mental healthcare.

The Michigan Legislature is considering or has passed a bill to allow guns in schools.

This country is doomed in so many ways. Until we recognize and address our problems, instead of thinking we are so "exceptional", they will continue.

Perhaps we are a long way from it, you are right.

The question is... what do we do in the meantime?

Just sit back and get used to gun violence like this? Or take action to get control?

This needs to be posted and reposted and reposted.

Gun control debate erupts on Twitter

josefsmith2011, @josefsmith2011, posted, "Guns don't kill people people do! Practice the 2nd amendment keep your gun loaded with you at all times the younger you are the better."

So the answer is "arm the children". What could possibly go wrong with a classroom of five year olds armed to the teeth.

surreal

In your country, and mine, we have to provide open access to mental health services...and that means we as tax payers have to pay for it!

If we have no other obligation surely we have an obligation to provide mental and physical healthcare to all who need it.

It's easier for a mentally-ill person to buy firearms to kill others than it is for that same person to get appropriate mental healthcare."
This needs to be posted and reposted and reposted.

Indeed it does kwoods.

And this is the time to pray to God but not the time to discuss gun violence and gun control? How dare you. Listen, God is not stopping these assassinations and massacres so maybe it is time that we as a society pull our praying heads out of our azzes and actually do something rational that turns this out-of-control gun culture around on its ear.

Baby caskets everywhere. Now, when is enough enough?

I'm so tired of reading "guns don't kill people, people do".
What a crock!!!!

Often a killing is done in the heat of the moment and had a gun not been available the outcome might have been different.

The killer, in this case, without a gun, might have just attacked one person. Instead, because he was armed he was able to kill 27.

As far as I'm concerned there is no good reason for the average citizen to own a gun.

~Ann

All that will get said today is the same old points in the same old way, accomplishing not one person to see even a single point that MIGHT be valid from another, and certainly not in any tone but anger/disgust.
-I wish people would not refer to Bill or Jodi as they have. they both are as passionate about this constitionally ruled issue as are we women and men in here who feel as passionately about our own contitutionally ruled issue regarding the right to an abortion should we deem it a necessity for our life .

-Because of the vitriolic nature that always accompanies the gun control issue, on this, the day that small children and some adults and even the mother and brother of the shooter died, I really can't think of a worse day to discuss this issue than on this day of violent death caused by guns and most likely angry mental illness.

I believe that the complications of this issue are so vast and great and divisive that we simply HAVE to be willing to LEARN how to discuss it - and abortion - or the type of violent incidences surrounding both issues will become an important part of what defines us as a people to the rest of the world which we share. I suspect that for many countries, it already has. That type of definition of an entire people can take decades - or longer to shake.
-For those who don't care what the rest of the world thinks of us, then no skin off your noses but for those of us who do care - because we share this world with the rest of humanity - we must come to some sort of agreement about what we are going to do or keep or change about the gun laws in this country - we MUST.

("for those who don't care" remark is in general about the general population of our country and there are too many - not specifically anyone in this forum)

I have put forth an idea once before after Congressman Gifford was shot, in the shock of that time it was never commented upon (although I might remmber that incorrectly) except with my own husband, who doesn't necessarily think it's a workable idea.

I would like to come back when the time is more appropriate - be that tomorrow or next week or Jan 2nd, and maybe have some sort of discussion where everyone's thoughts on the issue can be respected, or be pretended to be respected, as maybe a practice session. I would like to discuss with Bill and Jodi and anyone else who feels that gun ownership rights must not be violated - and see what they think of the most general idea I have been mulling. It's at least a start to a conversation - one that must take place and one that must start somewhere.
-I do not fool myself with the pretense that this forum has ever discovered any answers or even better defined any questions about our country, but if a rational discussion is ever to take place, it must begin with the effort of each of us, the individual American.

We must try and try again and then try AGAIN - or we will continue to be a people who are so locked in our position, unable to even concede a point we might even AGREE with - or worse, move forward on, for fear of being the "loser" or the loss of face or pride - sometimes I fear that the issue we discuss aren't really being discussed - a power play is taking place and the loss of face is uacceptable, no matter the consequences.
-At what point do we make the individual, honest and deep effort with each other, realizing and accepting the sacrifices of careful wording which would be required and the ability to let go of a point - of sacrifices in general that always must necessarily take place in the resolutions of issues - in order to come together as a country and be the people that we like to pretend we are to the rest of the world?
-It must begin with each one of us as an individual, I believe that from the bottom of my heart and always have.

But, not today. And, probably not tomorrow.

All, my opinion only, I speak for no one but myself.

Knowing isn't even enough. What more should be done? I don't know, but more. Gun control won't even do it.

Step back and hug one another at a time like this.

http://www.ibtimes.com/school-stabbings-focus-attention-chinas-mental- health-care-system-938335

State-run news agency Xinhua has reported that Min Yingjun, 36, was arrested after he went on a stabbing rampage that left children and an elderly woman injured as they were walking to school on Friday morning. A post on Weibo, China's top microblogging site that's similar to Twitter, described the "vicious incident" that unfolded.

"One mental patient charged into a group of students on their way to school, hacked and injured one resident and 22 students," the post read.

What the hell is going on?

Not just a regular gun either. These things that fire off multiple rounds a second and then are reloaded with snap of a magazine. Some must need a lot of firepower to stave off all those crazed muslims, hoodies, and illegals. Of course I could be wrong and maybe they just like to hunt for venison that way...you know, to feed the family.

By the way, the mother was a kindergarten teacher and most of those killed were kindergarteners. I want to go after the NRA with a sledgehammer.

-Ron-

-Ron-

Of COURSE this is about GUNS!

And this was the week that Florida, aka The Land of the Loony, announced, with pride, that there are very close to 1 MILLION, yes, MILLION, carrying concealed weapons. They are issuing 10,000 to 15,000 permits per month.

Yes sireeeee... couldn't get them out fast enough with the old system so now they 'fast track" 'em. Turn over time is 35 days.

And check out this bit of convoluted policy.

NICS/Background Check:
There is a background check but not NICS. Your permit is currently issued by the Department of Agriculture which is not a law enforcement agency, and therefore cannot do the NICS check required by federal law. Only "law enforcement agencies" can access NICS, and therefore the federal exemption that normally applies to concealed weapon permits, does not apply to those issued in Florida.

I would think this bit of lunacy designed to make an end run around the law should be easy to fix...

Amend the federal statute/law..to say that ONLY law enforcement agency can issue these permits. I'm pretty sure that it what was intended, but as usual, they took advantage of the fact that it isn't SPELLED out!

Apparently, Florida has the same type God figure as Grover Norquist with his NO TAX HIKES pledge...goes around TELLING and THREATENING anyone who runs for office or is thinkin' about it or wanting to get reelected that they MUST keep their hands off of these crazy gun laws..that goes for law enforcement, too. They run for office down here.

'Course, you know that the bogus "commission" that was set up to study the ULTRA LOONY Stand Your Ground Law basically has said they see no reason, what-so-ever, to change a thing!

If I could sell my house, I would be out of this nutcase State in a flash. Biggest mistake of my life, moving here.

I find it to be a truly frightening place!

E

Here is a chart of the entire US crime rate. appears to be dropping as gun laws are loosened. Hmmmmm.....

Violent Crime Up In the U.S. For First Time In Nearly 2 Decades, Despite FBI Claims

Violent crime rates across the U.S. jumped by about 18 percent, and property crimes rose by 11 percent between 2010 and 2011, according to a report released Wednesday by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

It's the first increase for both crime categories since 1993, according to Michael Planty, an analyst with the bureau. The annual report compiles data from a nationwide survey and captures many crimes not reported to police.

(snip)

The survey estimated that nearly 6 million people were victims of a violent crime in 2011, while roughly 17 million were the victims of a property crime. The largest increase in the survey was seen in assaults, which rose 22 percent.

(snip)

The sharp divergence between the Bureau of Justice Statistics' report and the FBI's data, which is compiled through crime data submitted from state agencies and police departments across the country is troubling, O'Donnell said.

Experts have raised concerns for years that police departments face pressure to show continually falling crime rates, leading to underreporting of crime.

What gun laws? When? Here's a graph that shows that when gun laws were tightened 1990 - eg using a weapon during the course of a crime, gun crimes went down:

Don't need a hug, Brush... I'm not a touchy-feely kind of person. I'm simply realistic enough to realize that this kind of thing is bound to happen when all the stars align, so to speak, as they did... and that you can't ensure the safety or lives of everyone.

It's very unfortunate. There's no doubt about that.

I don't expect things to get better... I expect them to worsen, actually. Take a good look at our society, worldwide... death is an integral part of it, and has been since the dawn of time. It's unrealistic to think we can save everyone and everything. Children die in large numbers every day in other countries... often to line the pocket of someone or some company... and we seldom hear about it, and no one wants to discuss it... but if a few happen to get in the way of some nut, here... it's worse, for some reason?

I'm not sure I understand all the sputtering and screaming, or what good it does, or will do. In my world, death is something we're prepared for, whether it happens naturally or not. I'm glad that more didn't die in an explosion from a homemade bomb or grenade. That whole school could have been leveled. Lack of a gun doesn't stop someone on a hellbent mission to cause mayhem and death. And that's the simple truth.

If giving my opinion on a controversial issue makes me obnoxious because someone doesn't share my views, so be it. Everyone is entitled to hold their own views.

Ugh. I can't believe you can't hear yourself.

I have to say that I really think people on both sides of this issue need to care less about being right than they do about a solution.

I think the pro-gun lobby ought to care enough to stop and consider that while people do kill other people, that maybe guns do it so dynamically that they merit special controls at the very least, maybe even an outright ban.

And I think the anti-gun lobby ought to care enough to stop and consider that while people with guns do kill people, that there is probably an underlying cultural component of violence that is equally important, if not even possibly more relevent to address.

So the question is, do we care enough about trying to stop 5 year olds from being shot at school enough to be willing not to be completely right and look at the other side too, or do we not? Would we rather be smug that we are right (correct, not politically leaning), or have kids keep getting killed in schools?

As always, jmho.

I haven't seen anyone from the gun control side who hasn't advocated a comprehensive solution. Gun control, mental health and cultural issues ALL have to be addressed to make a dent in the problem.

I've spent more than enough time looking at it from "the other side's" point of view. Ultimately, the insistence is always there that "Guns don't kill people"...

I've seen and heard plenty of people who stated unequivocally that banning guns would solve our (the United States) violence problems. But I am glad to know my point doesn't apply to anyone you know.

____________________________________________________________

Guns are the tools. It's the mindset that pulls the trigger. And again, good luck with changing that.