I think you'll be pleased with the results of your experiment. I like rooting plants in their destination pots because it's less work. But if they are delicate or if my life is busy or if it's fall/winter, I take the S/H root b/c it gets almost fool-proof results.

Not all S/H setups are equal, though! I've tried a lot of different receptacles and I've tried setups w/holes and setups w/out drainage. And all I can say is this is the one that works best:

I'll take a picture when I'm home, but basically what I have is a thingy I got at IKEA, to use as a terrarium dome. Idk what it was intended to be - I think a cake cover. Anyway, once I requisitioned it for emergency cuttings-overflow during my surplus-buying days, its life as a terrarium died, because it was never empty again.

It is shaped exactly like this:
{{gwi:2126362}}

It's about 12" in diameter and maybe 7" deep. It's made of glass. I filled it 2/3 full of hydroton. I let the water evaporate (but never let the hydroton dry out) and then refill it. I keep it maybe 4-5" under the lights, but it doesn't get any extra heat or humidity. It's just on one of my plant shelves, in the middle of all of my plants.

The things that I have found that don't work:
- putting a bag or cover over the container (plants rot or fail to thrive, even if it's loose - i think the S/H 'communal pot' is enough ambient humidity on its own)
- tall narrow receptacle

As far as putting cuttings in, it can sometimes be tricky but usually isn't too bad. The cuttings can even poke their way through an inch or two, with the large hydroton (not so much with the small hydroton). Basically, I use my left hand to scoop a pretty good hole, and then lower in vine with my right hand, cupping the lowest leaves protectively, poke a bit at the bottom to see if I can get the cutting any deeper without hurting it, and then release the hydroton dam. Then I make sure there are a few balls semi-heaped around the node at the soil line.

I have often tried a semi-horizontal approach, with cuttings where I had very little to work with, but I haven't found it to yield results. So, I usually place them at a diagonal (basically vertical - just slanted to get the nodes underground.)

p's. cystiantha and danumensis both grow in this thing - with the cuttings lol. One of these days I'm going to have to get another couple of these, so the cuttings can have their own and danumensis can have its own. But I fear I'll just keep putting cuttings in with cystiantha all the time, because I see it as my Hoya nursemaid now.

This post was edited by greedyghost on Tue, Jan 13, 15 at 23:01

> I like rooting plants in their destination pots because it's less work.

Up to now, I did that too! But does that mean you do not root non-challenging cuttings in hydroton anymore in the summer? I thought you always went to hydroton for rooting.

Got you on the rest of the points, thank you, GG. Do you use any bottom heat if rooting in the winter? I am going to. I think I need to.

And do you leave a little bit of water, an inch perhaps, in the pot at all times?

I do not like bagging cuttings either (or plants, for that matter). But I probably will put the rooting cuttings into a big Rubbermaid-type container covered ~2/3rds of the way by a clear plastic film. The remaining 1/3rd is for ventilation. That vent can be larger or smaller, depending on the humidity and air movement inside. I feel I need to use the container because it's already on the single heat mat I have, with some germinating seeds inside, and it's 80% empty, and it's under lights, so perfect. Mold/fungus CAN be a problem - need to watch that space daily and probably vent it daily as well, from my past experience. I was able to stop short of fungus though in the past, with some rare exceptions. I think the fact that the space is BIG makes it easier to maintain well, vs. individual small plastic bags or humidity chambers. It's just like with aquariums with fish - microclimates in big ones generally always easier to maintain that in small ones.

But It's really toasty and humid in that container - my hand can feel the difference when I stick it in. Feels nice for rooting cuttings.

> p's. cystiantha and danumensis both grow in this thing - with the cuttings lol

A very good hoya grower once told me she likes to stick a few cuttings of a very easily rooting plant (she mentioned Tradescantia zebrina, common name "Wandering Jew"), in there with hoya cuttings, so that they share rooting hormones in that communal container. (I have not tried to confirm independently if this should work or if this is placebo.) Your cystiantha+danumensis might accomplish a similar purpose. I am not sure though if a well-rooted hoya will produce enough of its rooting hormones to help those other rooting cuttings. Maybe it produces even more, I just don't know.

With communal pots, and especially when a plant (or two!) are already growing there, I always wonder - doesn't this mean constant disturbance of roots? You put cuttings in, you take them out, you put new ones in... You put the old ones in if they happened to not be rooted enough yet - how can all that possibly be ok for the plants that already grow in that pot? It's like building a house right in the middle of a road. I must not be getting something here...

Oh, one more question came to mind. Do you stake your cuttings? I almost always do, with a bamboo skewer, just so they are more securely fixed in place. I am thinking even a light jolt may move them and rip off the tender new roots. But what about in Growstones? The skewers are yet another thing to hold in place, and very closely to their respective cuttings, as I fill the thing with rocks, in addition to holding all the cuttings, with their respective stakes. I should probably just try it in practice, but right now it looks pretty much impossible to do in my head. Have you tried Growstones, GG? VERY gritty. In case of a communal pot, it's a temporary home though, so I suspect staking is less necessary.

(I am talking to GG here, because she replied, but of course everybody else is welcome to reply, as always.)

I prefer rooting in a permanent pot as well due to less disturbing of roots. I've rooted cuttings in growstones and clay balls but I mix those in potting mix unless I am actually going to grow in semi hydro.
I only stake my long cuttings to help the cutting stay in place.

Re: S/H in summer

S/H has been the more reliable method for me. I think it's for these reasons:

1. The roots develop faster, so if a cutting needs to root fast to survive, it helps.
   2. Automatic humidity boost
   3. Less need to hover. It takes longer for a communal S/H container to dry out than a 2.5" pot.
   4. Easier to keep the leaves universally close to the light. I don't stake my S/H cuttings, so, regardless of height, they all have lots of horizontal exposure to a close-range light source.

So, basically, I apply my "premium" rooting method as needed. I have one "year-round" communal pot and there's always something in it, because I'm always rooting something, and I am often too busy to move them out the minute they are well-rooted.

If I have an order of 3-4 cuttings, they all go in S/H, b/c they can all easily fit. If I have an order of 13+ cuttings, and it's autumn-winter, I assemble additional S/H setups. If it's spring-summer I just stick the most delicate ones in S/H and pot up the rest, because I don't think they really *need* premium conditions in spring/summer. My rooting success average that time of year is too high to require it.

Re: Rubbermaid

I like using those things, too. Way better than bags, although I will use a bag over the top of an individual potted plant from time to time. I've had good results keeping mitrata cuttings alive that way. Not to give another IKEA plug, but my favorite rooting storage bins are these because they are 100% clear. Since you have to buy the lid separate, they are more expensive than when Rubbermaid goes on sale at Target, but they are better for our uses.

Re: cystantha/danaumensis

Yeah that's why I said I need to buy some identical communal rooting vessels. I am not advocating rooting in a cystiantha pot - ha ha. I'm just admitting that it is what happens in my grow room, through circumstance. I try to avoid her roots, obviously. For whatever reason her roots are all on one side. Plants are smart. She probably knows what's going on and avoids the other half of the chamber. Just to play devil's advocate, though, maybe the little rooting hormones the cuttings release help her, and this offsets whatever root disturbance she experiences. All I know is that she has only ever flourished, so I haven't felt like too much of a slumlord, although as I said, I will eventually get her her own penthouse.

I have already tried to move my S/H communal rooting program to a different vessel, but so far it hasn't worked out. In fact, I did move it over to a giant glass bowl that was equally deep, but had 3x more surface area. However, it just never performed as well, and it was broken during the move. So, now I'm looking again. The real problem for me has just been that none of my other setups have performed as well as the one that cystiantha is in. I think it's just so mature that there is an established microbe ecosystem in there. So, fresh S/H setups get okay results, but aren't as powerful for saving cuttings that are really really down to their last gasp. This thing is just a miracle worker. You wouldn't believe the tiny desiccated shreds that I've brought back to life in it. So, I guess what I'm recommending is that you set up a S/H vessel and you keep it constantly active. Probably not by putting a valuable Hoya in there, but by always having something in there to sustain the ecosystem. Maybe just leave one batch of cuttings in there until the next group arrives. But maybe that isn't even enough. Maybe you need a slow-growing mature plant, so you don't just remove 75% of the microbes when you remove the plants. Idk where and how microbes live. Equally spread around like a gas, or clustered happily around the roots? It's kind of an abstract concept to me. I should talk to my mom. She's an organic farmer and obsessed with this stuff.

Re: Staking

I stake potted cuttings but (as stated above) not the ones in S/H. I don't worry about them being jostled b/c I don't move my S/H container ever.

Re: grow stones

I haven't tried grow stones. It would be interesting to compare the performance between grow stones, small hydroton, and large hydroton. But so far I've just worked with what I had and haven't needed to restock. I'm going to need more hydroton if I find two more of these vessels, though.

> I prefer rooting in a permanent pot as well due to less disturbing of roots.

I just thought of how to reconcile the desire for them to share their rooting hormones (if that even happens and if it's beneficial) with the goal of minimal repotting and root disturbance, as well as not entangling their roots. It can look something like this:
{{gwi:2126363}}

Cuttings would be in their individual containers in a hydro medium, but with a layer of water underneath in the tray, through which the hormones can be shared. They can live there indefinitely or can be repotted into your favorite medium once rooted, weakly or very strongly, because it's going to be a while before they get really entangled into a rot mess underneath - and even then the roots inside the pot do not have to be disturbed.

Communal pot rooters, do you see any disadvantages with this? I guess this does take more space than communal pots. Even with tiny 2" pots, cuttings are 4" away on average. They can be closer in a communal pot. But if you do not have space for 2" pots, then what are you doing rooting all those cuttings anyway? - this would be my question.

> 3. Less need to hover. It takes longer for a communal S/H container to dry out than a 2.5" pot.

That's a good point. I'll have to watch out for that if rooting in individual pots - especially if they are not sitting in water. I plan to put them into a container though, and drying out there will be much slower than out in the open.

> I will use a bag over the top of an individual potted plant from time to time.

Me too, when the plant is taller than my rubbermaid, or if I am out of space in the containers. Bagging is ugly as hell, but it has to be done sometimes, in order for them to get through the winter.

Once when I was rooting a bunch of cuttings, I put a dry cleaner's bag over ~ 2/3rds of a tray like in the pic above. It helped, I think.

> I've had good results keeping mitrata cuttings alive that way.

What is it about mitrata? It looks pretty tough and succulent, but often hear how difficult it is to grow. It's on my wish list, ~20% because I like how leaves are shimmery, spotty and curvy, and ~80% because it's challenging to grow, apparently. Call me a glutton for punishment, I guess.

> Not to give another IKEA plug, but my favorite rooting storage bins are these because they are 100% clear. Since you have to buy the lid separate, they are more expensive than when Rubbermaid goes on sale at Target.

Rubbermaids come in clear. Not that I am a brand fan of Rubbermaid, not at all. My container is actually some no-name brand, whatever was cheap in the store, but I call it rubbermaid as people call a photocopy a "Xerox" or to search "to google". Mine is non-transparent, unfortunately. It was bought for a different reason, but now I am using it because I figure, the light comes from exactly above, so it's ok. I am probably losing some light intensity, but it's reflected light, so I am sure it's not much. But if I was doing it from scratch, the container would be clear.

I do not use lids. I cut a dry cleaner's garment bag to rough size to cover the top and keep that film there with clothes pins. It's easy to change the vent size - just peel the film back more or less. No need to shift the lid, which might block some light or otherwise take space, depending on your grow space configuration.

I might check out that IKEA bin though, it looks interesting.

> I need to buy some identical communal rooting vessels.

Something like these? :-)
{{gwi:2126364}}

Clockwise from top: (1) hamburger patty container from my supermarket, (2) and (3) are both salad containers from the same supermarket, (4) and (5) are both (I think) cookie containers from... you guessed it! - my local supermarket. Or one of them may be from Trader Joe's, I think.

Although because your vessels are in use permanently, you may want something less ghetto-looking. :-/

Are there Marshall's or TJ Maxx stores close to you, GG? They both have nice inexpensive glass bowls often that you might like to replace that broken bowl you lost. They also have a good selection of glass terrarium looking things, by the way, so they are on my mind as well when I decide to go that way for orchids or hoyas.

> The real problem for me has just been that none of my other setups have performed as well as the one that cystiantha is in.

So, do you think it's cystiantha that's helping? Or is it something else about that setup, you figure?

> I think it's just so mature that there is an established microbe ecosystem in there.

Oh, this answers it, perhaps. I wonder if adding something like K-L-N or Hormex to that pool of water in communal semi-hydro rooting pots will help create a root-welcoming environment. My K-L-N is in the mail, and I am going to try, I think.

> So, I guess what I'm recommending is that you set up a S/H vessel and you keep it constantly active.

Hmm, something to think about for sure.

> I haven't tried grow stones. It would be interesting to compare the performance between grow stones, small hydroton, and large hydroton.

Then I'll definitely be glad to share some of mine in the package I am mailing you next week! They are light - lighter than hydroton, I think.

I have had limited but quite remarkable experience with growstones. There are only 4 species I have now (or had ever had) in it. Of those, 3 have bloomed, which makes for for a 75% blooming rate. That rate is ~10% at most for the rest of my plants, in my normal medium, even though the average age of those plants is older than those in growstones. I have no idea why I am not stampeding to repot everything to growstones, frankly, when looking at these numbers. I should at least try growing (not just rooting) a few more cuttings that way - which makes that growstone tray idea from the top of this post sound even more appealing.

Ugh, sorry for a huge post. Gotta learn to be brief. Some day, not now. :-)

greentoe - you mention wanting to try S/H, but then you ask about drying out. By definition S/H never dries out.

I would suggest you look up the website of the inventor of S/H. I've included the link for you Go to his "free information" tab, there is a ton of information there.

Well they won't let me post the link. but if you search for first rays as one word, you should be able to find it.

Sorry this was confusing, Renee. S/H is when a layer of water always stays at the bottom, to be wicked up - I know that. If we talk about traditional pots with drain holes in the very bottom though, like in my picture, that water may not be there, and the medium will dry out, if the tray water evaporates or is all used up. Drying out can also happen if there are no drain holes at all, like in GG's picture, and there is very little water at the bottom. So, we are talking hydroton and growstone, but we are not talking semi-hydroponics.

I love "first rays dot com" web site, learned a lot from it.

I have quite a few small Hoyas, and now one Dischidia (so far) growing in the leca stones. The plants look truly outstanding - I love the stuff. I use net pots for a lot of them...
{{gwi:2126365}}
...small ones, and I set them in coffee mugs for the cache pot. I'm not always timely in getting them watered and I've found them completely dry with no ill affects. I'm sure if they were dry for an extended time it would be a problem. As far as rooting, I just root them straight in the hydroton, no extra humidity or anything. I've had desiccated plants come back using hydroton!

Denise in Omaha

Renee:

I think that was my fault. ._.' I have a bad habit of co-opting the term S/H to cover a broader range of related setups, just b/c it's easier to type. /smacks self with newspaper

Denise:

I've found the same thing (completely dry with no ill effects). I am guessing, like you, that I got there in time. :o

How often do you end up with plants you have to cut out of the netting? It seems like there are some species that go berserk in S/H and grow three times as fast as the others. They're probably the same ones that grow through the eggshell crating to dip their toes in the water reservoir.

GT:

Re: Rooting in individual containers w/shared water supply

I'm not sure you would really disturb their roots any less. You'd still be switching out medium and you'd need to remove the plant to get a layer of medium on the bottom.

It would make it easier to keep track of plant labels if you don't like the loop labels (like me). (I really like those funny little ones Aleya uses though, with the wire.)

As far as, "But if you do not have space for 2" pots, then what are you doing rooting all those cuttings anyway? - this would be my question," I think there are a couple devil's advocate answers!

1. Maybe you only have one heat pad and want to root a lot of cuttings at the same time and it's the middle of winter! :P
2. Maybe you have plenty of room on your plant shelves, but like to root your cuttings in a quarantine area, and don't have as much space there. :P

Re: Rooting container

Yeah, those take-out containers won't work for me b/c they are too shallow. I prefer a fairly deep bowl so I can have 4+ inches of plant level, and then still 3+ inches of water level. And yes, glass is better for long-term use. Since I found something that I love, I am just looking for a similar glass bowl without much tapering. I actually think I'm just going to buy some footless trifle bowls.

Re: IKEA storage bins

Yeah, I've seen that, but the IKEA ones are also squared off at the bottom, so you have more square-footage with your square pots.

GG, I've had to cut a few out of the net pots, so now I try to keep an eye on them and move them to a larger pot before the roots get out of hand. I think the kind of roots they develop in S/H is a testimonial to how much they love it. I recently moved a finlaysonii and lobbii up to bigger pots and they're both thriving.

Denise in Omaha

Denise, do you find that roots grow out of the walls of those net pots? And if they do, how much is that a hassle or a non-event, you find, at repotting or whatever?

I love the look of clay pots with holes. Some orchids (Cattleyas primarily), when they really occupy those pots, send roots in and out of those pots and all around the outsides of the pot. It's quite an amazing look, to me (I know some people though who think roots should stay inside the pots at all times and under all circumstances). It happens with clay because it retains moisture (like hydroton and unlike plastic pots), and the roots sense that and cling to it. I have not seen hoyas growing like that though.

> I'm not always timely in getting them watered and I've found them completely dry with no ill affects.

Denise and GG, hydroton particles may retain some moisture in the pores inside, and share it with the roots, even when the outsides of the clay balls look dry. Maybe. And of course only for a limited time, before the whole thing dries out.

> Re: Rooting in individual containers w/shared water supply
> I'm not sure you would really disturb their roots any less. You'd still be switching out medium and you'd need to remove the plant to get a layer of medium on the bottom.

Well, I can leave them in this setup for a long time, because if I use that as the rooting setup, it also looks exactly like my growing setup. :-) Except in this case it will be a semi-hydro rooting+growing setup, not the traditional medium setup.

Re root disturbance - yes, you of course disturb the roots of the plants when repotting. But you only disturb THAT plant's roots, not roots of neighboring plants - unlike with communal pot rooting / growing.

> 1. Maybe you only have one heat pad and want to root a lot of cuttings at the same time and it's the middle of winter! :P

Good point, I did not think of that - even though that is exactly my situation!

> 2. Maybe you have plenty of room on your plant shelves, but like to root your cuttings in a quarantine area, and don't have as much space there. :P

You could expand your quarantine area temporarily to one more of the shelves or part of a shelf. As long as there is always some distance between new and old plants, you are ok - although some people like to keep them at a longer distance for more peace of mind.

Personally, I find comfort in knowing that systemic pesticide is cruising through the veins of all my plants (except the most recent acquisitions), active for up to a year. Then if some dumb pest decides to munch on one of those treated plants, they'd be dead, even if I never notice them and never treat them directly.

> Yeah, those take-out containers won't work for me b/c they are too shallow. I prefer a fairly deep bowl so I can have 4+ inches of plant level, and then still 3+ inches of water level.

Wow, 3 inches of water! Why do you need so much? I guess you need to have as much as necessary for it to not evaporate within a week, or however often you water, even under the driest / sunniest / windiest / thirstiest / wickiest of curcumstances. I do not know how fast hydroton wicks/evaporates water in your more wide throat setup. Maybe 3 inches is necessary, but sounds too much from what I've read. An inch seems enough in my few s/h pots, but they are in a protected environment, so evaporation is not that active, I think, and your circumstances may be different.

> the IKEA ones are also squared off at the bottom, so you have more square-footage with your square pots.

Yes! Rounded bottom on my container drives me crazy because they force me to waste valuable rooting space. It makes the container smaller than it looks.