GG replied:

Yeah, I'm having good responses from my plants so far, using one T5 bulb (per shelf). (My top shelves have compact fluorescent fixtures resting overhead, but there's no difference in performance) Obviously I haven't bloomed every plant in my collection, but as you know, I haven't been doing this long and most of my plants are still very young, yet it seems like every month there's a few new ones turning the corner. So, my preliminary results seem to imply that it's adequate light for the majority of Hoyas to bloom. I have seen some amazing results in terms of speed-to-bloom when Hoyas are under super super high light. Like, when they are growing outdoors in Spain, or when people construct those very marijuana-y setups with reflective surfaces and mega light fixtures. So, I think if you have a mind to, you can double, triple, the light and you will absolutely see faster progress. But if your goal is just to ensure that the plants are getting enough light to reach their full potential in 1-3 years, then this setup is fine.

I'm still thinking I'll double up the light on one of the shelves just to have somewhere to stick Hoyas that I think are due for a bloom, and so must need lots of light. But, honestly the plants in the aquarium are under a double light and I don't think they grow any faster or bloom any more. Oh, btw, my light is not sufficient to yield the high light red coloring in, say, obscura. So if you're really into that, you might want to bump it up a notch.

I use 4' fixtures over 4' wide shelves. They're those Sunblasters, with the reflectors. I like them because they're very streamlined, so you get the most height possible out of your shelves. They are definitely RIGHT over the leaves, and I have to be careful when I put the trays back on the shelves to make sure I don't have any vines/leaves touching the bulbs. They can get millimeters away without being burnt, but once they touch, obviously they do get disfigured. It's kind of a pain, really, but I figure it's the price of admission. With Hoyas, because most of them are grown on standard size hoops for a while, it's not so much a concern of "what do I want the light distance to be" - it's a matter of "how do I position my shelves so I can fit full sized hoops on 3 shelves and still be able to fit some shorties on the remaining shelf." Unless you eliminate a shelf, your plants will be inches away from the bulb whether you like it or not. I wish they would just make the shelves as high as my ceiling - I could use that extra foot or so. ;)

I went on:

I should try this one bulb per shelf thing on my remaining shelves. The multi-bulb fixtures are bulky.

Doubling up the light for the reluctant bloomers is a good idea, of course.

GG> Oh, btw, my light is not sufficient to yield the high light red coloring in, say, obscura. So if you're really into that, you might want to bump it up a notch.

That's important to me - but then I can just stick those species only into the high light shelves, together with the reluctant bloomers.

GG> They are definitely RIGHT over the leaves ... It's kind of a pain, really

I guess this is where the bigger fixtures might have the advantage - the bulbs look a bit more recessed in them and you can lean a leaf against the fixture easier without it getting burnt. Maybe - I do not have any Sunblasters yet. But it looks that way.

GG> most of them are grown on standard size hoops

Do you use those 2-, 3-, 4-foot bamboo U-hoops? I've never used them because I do not like them for their non-green (non-camouflaged) color and for their thickness. I went for a green plastic coated wire from Home Depot. It's cheap, pliable, you can cut any length, less visible and thinner (daisy clips work well with it unlike with bamboo hoops where you need bulkier less camouflaged bumble-bee clips, I guess). BUT that wire can't support the really heavy big growers (not my problem yet); all the loop heights are different, and the bending advantage can be a disadvantage because they can look wavy/irregular and sort of amateurish - until the vines cover them, and then these little defects are invisible.

What do you think about all this?

GG> I wish they would just make the shelves as high as my ceiling - I could use that extra foot or so. ;)

I had the same thought, and I found a solution I like. On this photo the top fixture is suspended directly from the ceiling above the stand with these hooks (http://www.homedepot.com/p/OOK-50-lb-White-Enamel-Swag-Hooks-2-Pack-50340/100115444?MERCH=RV-_-RV_nav_plp_rr-6-_-NA-_-100115444-_-N). I wanted to hang it as close to the ceiling as possible, and these hooks together with a very tight loop of the suspension rope did the job.

Disadvantages are: (1) that shelf gets hot, because of a 4-bulber underneath and another on top (heat can be reduced if I just use a Sunblaster underneath, I now realize) - and an oscillating fan can help dissipate the warm air and increase beneficial air movement generally; (2) fixed height of that shelf, basically nothing can be done to change it (replacing the 4-bulber with a Sunblaster will increase the height, but it's still fixed), but that is ok because all the rest of the shelves are adjustable.

Then I added:

One more question comes to mind: do you set trays parallel to lights or perpendicular? You said you use smaller Perma Nest trays as well to optimize the space. If you do not mind, a few pictures would be very helpful of how your setup looks: the shelves, the trays, the lamps, everything we've talked about here.

GG replied:

Re: Burning Leaves

Because I have mine fitted with the reflector, vines can rest against the sides of the fixture no problem. My problem is really less to do with the fixture and more to do with the shelf height. There just isn't more than 1-3" clearance between the tops of the hoops and the light fixture. If I used a different fixture, I wouldn't even be able to fit them on the shelves.

Hoyas won't grow right into the bulb - they know to grow around it - but if I put the flat back on the shelf carelessly, I might lean a leaf against the bulb. I just always have to do this little sweep afterward, where I reposition a few vines and leaves.

I could eliminate the problem by just removing a shelf and turning it into a 3 shelf unit, but I do like having that shelf there for the shorties. I probably just need to get another shelving unit, or light the one in the bedroom.

I'll take a picture tonight - sorry, I had a really crazy weekend.

It did occur to me to suspend the fixture from the ceiling, because they're built for that purpose. Maybe I should do so. I'm just dragging my feet on putting more holes into my landlord's ceiling b/c I feel like I'm already taking advantage of his permission to put in holes as long as I patch them up when I leave.

Re: Hoops

I do use the big 4' bamboo hoops, on my big plants. I'm not a huge fan either - mainly because they're unnecessarily bulky and expensive for small pots. I use the green plastic coated hoops for 99.9% of my plants. Most of my plants are on the 30" 12 gauge plant stakes. This is the first height I used and most of my shelves are spaced for this height. My plants live on this size hoop in 4" pots until they really outgrow it, which takes a long time for most species.

Of course, I also use short plant hoops for the short plants. I reuse the varying sizes that I have accumulated from Joni over the years, and I've bought my own, so there is no standardization with little hoops. It's actually really handy to have a variety at this stage because when cuttings are small you run into more unique scenarios.

Now, I love the 30" height, but if I ever get rid of that shortie shelf, I might convert everyone over to 36" hoops, because Chula's 10 gauge wire is so much better than the 12 gauge. The hoops are so much sturdier. They're great for the heavier plants. They are less inclined to lean in the pot. I keep all 3 lengths of this wire and they are all handy. The green is actually a nicer green than the 12 gauge - a bit more of a natural hue, so it blends in better.

Re: Tray placement

The large trays are longways and the small trays are shortways. Then I have just enough room to put a row of plants at the back, in saucers, so that's where I put my bulky big leaf plants.

Since we're talking about light here, I do have a question....I also grow my hoya under lights inside for most of the year. But this time of year I take them out on my screened porch for the summer. They probably actually get brighter light under the artificial lights inside, but outside they get much warmer temperatures and humidity. Is this a good trade off, or would I do just as well keeping them inside?

And that was all for our email chain so far. Some things to add:

I actually have removed one of the shelves on my stand, but I use the floor as a shelf as well (no point in having the shelf right above the floor - I'll gladly take that extra inch or two). There are many non-hoyas on non-standard-height loops on my stand, which means my plant height variability may be larger than yours, GG, and my fixtures are bulkier than your Sunblasters, as you said - so one shelf just had to go.

> I'm just dragging my feet on putting more holes into my landlord's ceiling

They won't even know if you get them patched up when leaving, which you should, of course, whether they know or not. It's literally a 2-second deal to patch up two extra holes, so drill away, I say. For cement ceilings, you need a hammer drill and a special bit, but my guy did it in minutes, so the work will not be expensive or messy or long.

> Chula's 10 gauge wire is so much better than the 12 gauge.

I do not even know the gauge of my wire - will need to check and photo the product at Home Depot just for my records. But I know mine will not support heavier hoyas.

> Re: Tray placement - The large trays are longways and the small trays are shortways.

Another advantage of that suspended light, I find, is that I can put even these large trays perpendicular to the lights - and fit way more onto that top shelf than seems possible. The pic above shows it - there are three trays, AND there is still plenty of space in the middle for other plants. I suspect four trays may fit. The reason I cannot do that on lower shelves is the trays will stick out too much into a high traffic walk-way. The high shelf is above my head, so it can stick out all it wants. And of course, such positioning of the trays tilts the center of gravity for the whole stand forward and upward - what could possibly go wrong with that!?!? :-) My stand is not bolted to the wall behind it, but maybe it should be. I find plenty of heavy pots on lower shelves backsides help stabilize the stand, but just be careful adopting my ideas, everyone.

I am going to buy a couple of Sunblaster fixtures for my yet-unlit shelves in the next couple of days, so this is still a work in progress for me.

Greybird, if your plants get at least a little dappled sunlight on the porch I think that it is a good trade off.

GT in regards to one T-5 per four foot shelf I would consider that to be inadequate lighting unless it was used to supplement at least some natural light from a nearby window.

I can only speak for myself in that I use far more lighting than described in GG's setup but my plants are bigger, and I don't restrict their growth to such small hoops. I do greatly admire her amazing organization and ability to pack the plants in. I could only keep plants like that for maybe six months and then they would want to break free from the restrictions of the space and small hoops.

I also do not like to clamp a vine down to a hoop until it is absolutely necessary , as I feel that many times it will stifle blooming. I have found that many times it will kill or slow the vine and than a new one will spring directly from the top of the hoop.

You asked about grow-tents in another post. I use them, and have great luck with most plants. One particular set up is producing astonishing results for me in record time. I use a mother keeper tent from HTG Supply, which is approx. 51X24X48 inches high with one single T-5 strip light and a 150W HPS growlight. Plants sit on a tray of water for humidity. This entire set up sits on a 24X48 inch folding table, which puts the plants at an optimal height for tending. Now GG could fit in four times the number of plants in this amount of square footage, but this is how I like to grow. I bloomed inflata in nine months in this set up, just bloomed lambii, and I've got some other amazing plants budding up, but don't want to jinx it by uttering their names.

I am not criticizing anyone's growing methods, but just laying out mine as I am frequently asked about them.

Doug

> Since we're talking about light here, I do have a question....I also grow my hoya under lights inside for most of the year. But this time of year I take them out on my screened porch for the summer. They probably actually get brighter light under the artificial lights inside, but outside they get much warmer temperatures and humidity. Is this a good trade off, or would I do just as well keeping them inside?

Greybird, I believe your plants would greatly enjoy the outdoors more than in. Air movement, humidity and the warmth are all positive factors in zone 6 in the summer. But even your assumption that outdoor light in your case is weaker than indoors may very well be wrong. Humans perceive light intensity very differently from plants. I was amazed to see some plants under lights still reach for what looks to me like a rather dim (but large) window about 10 feet away. I thought I saw things that were not there, so I turned the plant around, and sure enough, it gradually reoriented itself to reach for the window again. It was also reaching up, so it's not like the lights were useless, but there was a clearly-perceptible reach for the sun.

There are some light metering applications for smart phones or light meters sold at Home Depots and such - use one to measure light differences, and you may be surprised.

It's memorial day weekend so I'm traveling and sleepy so I can't get into much of a response here, but I wanted to say two things:

1) I take 0% offense to anything you have to say Doug. :) I don't recommend that anyone follow my example. I'm a case in progress at best, barely above novice level, and can only share the results of my experiments, not prescribe methodology.

2) My shelves are against a bank of windows, so they do get natural light in addition to the artificial light. They are north facing, but very tall. I know they do contribute significantly to the light because cumingiana leaves grow abutting each other during summer, but a cm or so apart in winter. I feel like I have mentioned the windows tangentially, but idk if I mentioned it directly in the above conversation, so I apologize if I was misleading/confusing!

More after the weekend but not now. Happy long weekend to all!

This post was edited by greedyghost on Sat, May 24, 14 at 0:16

GG, I'm really glad that no offense was taken, because believe me none was given:) I learn things from almost every post you write! I would like to have one tenth of your organizational ability - I don't even have a list of the Hoyas I own, or know how many!

The windows you describe, make a huge difference and allow you much more flexibility with lighting. I am envious, because I have relatively small windows, and not near enough so I look for alternatives. I grow my plants from the point of view of the plant. If I were this Hoya, how would I like to grow, and try to accommodate within the means of practicality and budget.

I hope everyone has a great holiday weekend as well!

Doug

> GT in regards to one T-5 per four foot shelf I would consider that to be inadequate lighting unless it was used to supplement at least some natural light from a nearby window.

I guess how many bulbs to use is a factor in how "intensively" I want to grow. My stand is across the (small) room from a big shady window, so I'll probably use at least two bulbs per shelf. Four single bulb fixtures are getting delivered tomorrow for my remaining two unlit shelves, so I think I am done for now.

> I use a mother keeper tent from HTG Supply

I checked that out, and it looks pretty serious. I'll keep that in mind, maybe for stingy bloomers.