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gennykins

For those that grow carnosa and 'Mathilde'...

gennykins
12 years ago

Can you please compare the blooms for me? I'm especially interested in whether 'Mathilde's are fuzzier. Its hard to tell from on-line photos. Thanks!

Lisa

Comments (11)

  • puglvr1
    12 years ago

    Hi Lisa, unfortunately, I don't have a close up picture of my Mathilde blooms only Carnosa. But, when I tried to zoom and crop the picture of Mathilde (although, the pic is blurry) it does look like mathilde has some fuzz on the blooms unlike my Carnosa(no fuzz)...at least that's how it looks to me? Mathilde is not blooming for me right now but I will take some photos next time when it blooms. Hopefully, someone can tell you for sure.

  • mdahms1979
    12 years ago

    The surface of both species flowers are quite similar but perhaps Hoya Mathilde's shows slightly more dense covering of hairs. Hoya serpens after all does have some pretty hairy flowers.

    Are you looking for a Hoya with particularly hairy blooms?
    Hoya siamica is a species that has blooms that remind me of the cleanest and softest lambs wool. This species is also closely related to both Hoya carnosa and serpens so the flowers show obvious similarities.

    Mike

    Here is a link that might be useful: Hoya siamica

  • mairzy_dotes
    12 years ago

    Those are very cute, Mike. Think I will add that one to my wish list. That is one I have never had. She talks of there being 2 different clones of it. I wonder which number or one has the prettier leaves and flowers (and apparently lives) more readily than the other.

  • gennykins
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Nancy, thanks!

    Mike, I just received 'Mathilde' as a gift and generally, don't get too excited about hoyas with smaller leaves and a hoya with smaller leaves that has flowers similar to one (carnosa) that I already have. However, I am a sucker for texture and if the blooms are hairier (more hirsute) than carnosa, I will keep it. Otherwise, I may trade it in the spring. Thanks for responding!

    Lisa

  • mdahms1979
    12 years ago

    When you see reference to there being a certain number of clones of a Hoya all that really means is that there are that many different plants in cultivation that came from separate wild collections. Often times these plants will be slightly different form each other which is to be expected because they originated from a seed vs. vegetative propigation like you see with plants grown from cuttings which are true clones.
    I can't comment on the difficulty of growing this Hoya siamica because I only recently have rooted a cutting that came from Ted Green's collection. Joni at SRQ also had this species on sale a little while ago. Getting back to the comments about different clones being easier or harder to grow, this is not necessarily going to be the case when you try to grow this plant. Everyone has different growing spaces and climates and care practices with their plants so don't be afraid to take a chance on a plant you like just because you read that it was difficult. Having said that one thing that you must pay attention to is the temperature requirements of plants that are labeled as difficult. If you live in Southern Florida then trying to grow high altitude cool growers like Hoya gildingii or nyhuusiae is going to be difficult. Hoya siamica is also considered a cool grower as it is found at altitudes of 1500 to 2500 Meters in Yunnan province in Southern China as well as Thailand which is where the name siamica came form, Siam being an old name for Thailand.

    Lisa I think you will like Hoya Mathilde because it is a very attractive little plant. The shape of the leaves is so much closer to the Hoya serpens parent that it sets it apart from Hoya carnosa even if the flowers are quite similar.

    Mike

    Here is a link that might be useful: Hoya siamica in Flora of China

  • tigerdawn
    12 years ago

    If you end up not keeping your Mathilde, I would love it!!

  • RainforestGuy
    12 years ago

    The variations of a species can be from wild collected forms but mostly many are "Cultivated" sports or mutations through constant cultivating. The carnosa is an example of diverse mutations. This plant is like the sansevieria trifasciata with its many forms and variations.
    Some species just has enough genetic variations that they can produce many variations. H. kerrii, australis and some of the foliage species forms are also variable.
    The collecting of species in the wild has unfortunately only been collected as a single form. Previous to the current day, all species were represented just as a single clone of the species. Anyone who has grown or collected orchids, ferns or any plant knows that much variations exist in nature where nature herself is testing new possibilities to see if it works out. A species is constantly changing and evolving.
    After growing nepenthes for many years, I have found this to be true that each species can vary so much that it can sometimes be considered hybrids or cross backs. Yes, species do cross over and cross back. Perhaps to strengthen the species adaption to a particular region or perhaps to increase pollination by adapting to new pollinating agents and methods. Populations where strong growth of a form, possibly as a result of constant breeding with other species to eventually mold itself into a "new" species.
    Little is known about natural hybrids in hoyas, but I would bet it exists. Nepenthes populations in the wild have many surprises. N. Hookeriana (N. ampullaria x rafflesiana) is more prevalent and common than either species. The successful hybrid of the two cements a marriage of excellent growth potentials and shared pollinators. Having a season of intermediate flowering schedules, these can breed back either direction in making a "hybrid vigor" plant. Sooner or later, either side of these species becomes less prevalent and pollinators become less frequent in making the true species.
    Hoyas have many intermediate variations in between dominant populations in the wild. But unfortunately, many look at these as "new" species when they should be viewed as natural hybrids. This is part of the BIG MESS that exists in hoyas. I don't plan on being the one to separate a species from a natural hybrid nor do I want to be the one in renaming the genus into subgenus levels even though I strongly urge this to be done.

  • gennykins
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Mike-I checked out siamica - cuteness galore! I love the pillowy softness of the blooms and I like that the leaves are elongated. The shapes remind me a bit of benguetensis which I am having a heck of a time growing. I do believe I need to add siamica to my list.

    Tigerdawn-Duly noted! I love it - the 2012 trading season is off to a very early start.

    Michael/RFG-Perhaps there is a scientist who reads this forum that might be up for the task of categorizing and renaming hoyas. I for one would find this to be completely overwhelming but I lack an intense interest in the science of hoyas. It is the aesthetics of hoyas that drives my passion for them. Any volunteers out there?

    Lisa

  • RainforestGuy
    12 years ago

    There will only be true hoyas (H. carnosa group) and everything else. Centrostemma, eriostemma, etc. will be its own genus for each group of species. Just like how they split up so many of the orchid species into genus levels. Because a centrostemma cannot cross with an eriostemma, etc. None of the species in each subgenus is compatible with one another for pollintion concerns.

  • mairzy_dotes
    12 years ago

    I am confused again (nothing unusual there however).
    If they are not able to cross pollinate with different species, then how did the serpens/carnosa and australis/subclava etc. crosses come about?

  • mdahms1979
    12 years ago

    RFG I agree that many plants in cultivation spontaneously develop mutations etc. but in the case of these less common Hoyas like Hoya siamica the different clones that are mentioned would almost certainly be of wild origin.


    Right now all we have is a grouping of Hoya species into different sections. These sections include but are not limited to section Eu-Hoya (carnosa relatives) Acanthostemma (think DS-70) etc. These are not refined sections but rather loose groupings of plants based on flower morphology, colour of sap etc. If you look through the articles of STEMMA you can get a better idea of how Hoyas are currently grouped as well as proposed groupings, these journal issues are available on the Hoya page at Apodagis.
    It would be nice to see a revision of the genus and I am surprised that no one has taken this on.

    Mairzy Dotes the species you mentioned are close relatives, they belong in the same section so they can interbreed. You run into problems when you try to cross species from outside of their section.


    If anyone wants some heavy reading you can purchase the following article as a PDF file.
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790306000200

    Mike

    Here is a link that might be useful: Hoya sections in STEMMA JOURNAL

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