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Introduction and plant identification

Posted by kellielou 4 (My Page) on
Sun, Sep 11, 11 at 10:33

Hello! My name is Kellie. I've been a member of the Gardenweb site forever and over the years have used it many times for reference. I have recently become interested in hoyas after FINALLY getting a bloom on my Krimson Queen. After finding out there are so many different varieties I have been shopping quite a bit!

I've been purchasing the common hoyas that are available here from
home depot. I have, besides the Krimson Queen ( which has turned mostly all green, I don't know why), Princess, Kentiana (I did read that's mislabeled, I can't remember the proper name), compacta, polyneura, and Chelsea. I like them all, but the fishtail would be my least favorite, I don't know why. They have southwest, west and east exposures. I thought it would be fun to have more plants to get me through our long, long Minnesota winters...

I've done many many searches here and most all of my questions have been answered, thank you all! My latest search involves supplemental lighting, lots of good info.

ANYWAY-- I got this hoya from a popular local garden center here. The tag just says "Scented Hoya." From my searching I'm guessing Australis ssp. austrails? I was just interested to see if it could be identified. The leaves are fuzzy, the stems are pretty stiff. It really didn't look that healthy to me, but I finally found something different than the same ones all the time, so I bought it!

This is getting too long! Just thought it would be better to intoduce myself before jumping in. I rarely post, I don't have much to add, but I'm reading the posts, and lurking, or "creeping" as my daughter would say! ;o).

Here is the plant, does anyone have an idea? Thanks! Kellie


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Introduction and plant identification

It looks like a nummulariodes you said it was fuzzy right al that's my guess . And welcome to the hoya forum


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Hi Kellie, nice to meet you! Welcome to the Hoya forum!

I'm far from being an expert but your hoya doesn't quite look the same as my Austrailis ssp. australis with the "hairy" leaves? Yours looks somewhat like hoya nummularioides?? Check out some of the pictures on the web and see "if" it matches yours? Again, its just a guess, hopefully someone can give you a more definitive name.


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Welcome Kellie!... I am a relative newbie here.. but just to add my "opinion".. your plant looks very much like my newly purchased (from HD) Brevialata.. which has very soft leaves.. some are "roundish" as yours are... and the more mature ones seem to be a bit "elongated".. and the color looks similar! My plant is an EA hoya.. they misspelled the name, calling it a Brevialta.. so maybe its not what I think anyway.. Love to hear from the experts!.. (my little rescued broken stem from a sad nummularoides, though very soft (fuzzy wise).. seems to be a bit darker green and have a 'sheen' when held to the light a certain way.. this stem is currently sitting in some water).. please experts we need you here... lovely to meet you Kellie!


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Welcome Kellie, it's nice to have you posting.

I agree that your plant is Hoya nummularioides.

Mike


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

This plant is NOT H. nummularioides or pubera. The name should be back at it's original name as Hoya. sp Geri. The type description is not accurate for this plant. And the plant in question is not from the locale that H. nummularioides or pubera is found.
But this plant has been called pubera and nummularioides for so long (because of TG's constant name changing issues). The name nummulariodies just stuck on. But calling this nummularioides is incorrect.
The type for H. nummularioides describes a plant constantly in flower. Anyone growing this plant knows that it is very seasonal and so many things are NOT even close to the species.
Change your tags, this plant is NOT H. nummularioides!!


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

I know the collector of this species and it is NOT H. nummularioides. It was named after a cactus grower in Hawai'i, Geri Ham Young. The collector also collected numerous other species and gave them different ID #'s etc. DS-70 was one of them. The black leafed form was also collected at that time.

Does anyone want to guess where the origin of these two plants originated from?

H. nummularioides (true) comes from Indo-China (Cambodia, Laos, etc.) The true H. nummularioides would be a dead ringer for Dischidia nummularioides (which this name was used after the appearance of H. nummularioides looked so close to it the plant was wrongly named H. nummularioides (even though it was not a hoya but a dischidia when it flowered). Both Dischidia and Hoya nummularioides (true) comes from similar regions, the plant in question, does not.


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Thianks for the welsome and also the information on the plant, very informative. I was just excited because I found a plant different from the same ones I already have. Eileen, I do have the Brevialata also, I forgot to list that one!

The plant in question is not an Exotic Angel, the tag is different. I was thinking maybe the Engelmann company sends the certain plants to certain zones since I see the same plants all the time. The only one we get that I haven't purchased is Curtsii, they never look healthy, and I'm not sure I could grow it! Thanks again-- Kellie


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Welcome Kellie
There is a lot on information on this forum, and my suggestion is to keep notes. Especially the changing names of hoya. I have a database and try to keep up with the name changes. I don't change tags right away, just make notes in my data and by whom made the correction. This way if I trade cuttings, I can pass along info to help keep the names correct.
~Eileen in FL~


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

The problem is that there are two descriptions of two different plants in the same publication. One plant was published as Hoya nummularia Hook in the Flora of British India IV pg.55 although I can't find it there even though that publication has been digitally scanned and is available at Biodiversitylibrary.org.

In the origional French publication Flore generale de l'Indo-Chine you will find both Hoya nummularia and Hoya nummularioides with the official publication of nummularioides being found here.
Because the original publication is in French and was digitally scanned it can not be translated unless it's done manually. I have been working on this for a little while as my French is not good enough to translate this.

Here is the English translation

Hoya nummulariodies Cost, n sp.

Stem pubescent with very strong longitudinal ridges in the dry, from place to place with adventitious roots, of 2-2.5mm thick internodes of 2.5-3cm
fleshy leaves small round or oval, but with a very hairy apiculate abut the top on 2 sides.
Veins not visible; PATCH off 9-16mm 12-25mm long petiole pubescent, thick, 2-5mm long
Inflorescence - umbel has 12-18 flowers axillary, peduncle 15-30mm long, pubescent, slender pedicle of 6-10mm long pubescent; fleus odoriferents white, 4mm dedian when the button is firm.
Calyx sepals ovate-obtuse rounded pubescats.
Fleshy leaves small round or oval, but with a very hairy apiculate abut the top on 2 sides.
Veins not visible; PATCH off 9-16mm 12-25mm long petiole pubescent, thick, 2-5mm long
Inflorescence - umbel has 12-18 flowers axillary, peduncle 15-30mm long, pubescent, slender pedicle of 6-10mm long pubescent; flowers odoriferous white, 4mm dedian when the button is firm.
Calyx sepals ovate-obtuse rounded pubescent. say hairy

Corolla lobes triangular, pubescent within, a folded inside tips strongly bloom valvate.(?)

Corona: pieces stars 5 (five pointed stars), shorter than the integer part of the corolla, a peak external acute, concave above, with a rating below mediana very pronounced beak well developed internal attenuate and exceeding the height of the top of the anthers; pollen masses flat, bevel cuts at the end with Bordua transparent caudicles short; retiinacles eranglement with the middle; membrane of Connective anthers very short.

Pistil: style conical head, very short, protruding pen on a pentagonal plate.

Fruit: follicles long, cylindrical, pointed, slightly curved - Flowers in August and September

Cambodia: Kompong - track (Geoffray) Laos Bossae Kong (Thorel)

This description is consistent with the Hoya nummularioides that we know now. The description can not be of a plant resembling Dischidia nummularioides because that plant is obviously completely glabrous. I think the confusion came about because of the publication of Hoya nummularia which turned out to be a Dischidia (nummularioides).
The description of Hoya nummularioides also states that it blooms seasonally in August and September and was originally found in Laos.

I don't see anything that points to the wrongful identification of Hoya nummularioides in our current time.

Here is the Flora of British India if anyone wants to try to find the original publication of Hoya nummularia in case they don't trust the reprint in the French publication I linked to below.
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/title/678#page/93/mode/1up

If you want to see the Hoya nummularioides description in French use the box to the left and select page 129 in the link below.

Mike

Here is a link that might be useful: Hoya nummularioides publication


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

...annnnnd the Minnesota count continues to rise! Weirdly I think this is the second largest group on this forum after Florida. Unless you lump all the Canadians together, which naturally I do. (jk!!!)

Welcome Kellie. ^_^

/Mike.

Thanks so much for going to all that trouble. I was doing quite a bit of rummaging around myself, but as it was mostly after 3 o'clock in the morning, my brain cells weren't firing well and I wasn't making much progress. Clearly this bit of detective work would have been way over my head as my French consists of knowing that you can answer pretty much any French gobbledygook with ca va. Right? B/c that's what I've been doing. ^_~


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

I agree that your plant in question is the one commonly sold as H.nummularioides, (even though apparently that is not it's real name). It blooms in the fall and if happy it blooms at almost every node. It does not keep the little peduncles after blooming. If yours does bloom, you will love the smell. It is very nice and unmistakable.


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Hi Kellie,

Welcome to the forum from another Minnesotan. Your hoya does look like the plant I purchased from Lowe's as nummularoides. If you are looking to buy different hoyas and live in the Twin Cities, Orchids Limited is in Plymouth off of 494 and Fernbrook. I was there a couple of months ago and purchased a cutting of variegated kerri with peduncles for $10. He also had curtsii and a pink archiboldiana. Ask the owner if you can wander the greenhouses - he's got a few that are attached. Its in a residential rather than commercial area - watch for the alpacas grazing in the side yard.

Lisa


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Well thanks Mike and everyone who came to the same conclusion on Kellie's hoya ID... this newbie knows when she is wrong.. but the leaves do look "a little similar" to my new one.. Just one question... how can you tell from the picture? I guess I have a very long, long way to go before trying to ID!... Eileen (the Vermont... not to be confused with the one in Fl who knows a lot more!...LOL)


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Hi everyone! Mike, thank you so much for all the information, wow.... I have a nummularioides!

Lisa-- we do live in the twin cities, southern suburbs. I got the plant from Bachman's, Apple Valley. The orchid greenhouse sounds like a fun place to go. I'm just looking for a nice variety, I love all the different leaves. Looks like we're heading for a cool down, it has been a bit unseasonably warm where we are! We could definately use some rain....

Eileen-- The leaves do look similar, you're right! But it has a different feel, fuzzy leaves, stiffer, thicker, although you can't really see that from the picture, duh..... ;o).

Back to the plant-- Some of the leaves are turning dark reddish. I just got it and I haven't messed with it except I did water it, it was rock hard dry, and I mean rock hard. Problem? I think it needs to be re-potted, but I always want to re-pot everything right away, I've restrained myself after reading here-- Kellie


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

/Eileen.

It will come to you faster than you think. A lot of it just comes with owning the plants in question, then they become recognizable to you in the same way you can tell different faces apart.

The main thing that jumps out at me, distinguishing nummularoides leaves from those of DS-70 and brevilata, aside from their being plushier, is that they are concave versus convex. Also, nummularoides vines are more rigid and stick up straighter. The midvein would be more visible in DS-70 and the tip would be more rounded in brevialta. Plus, in the first picture, above, where she has photographed the tip of a branch just left of center, with two nodes closely spaced together so that there is a tight clover of leaves - that is just classic nummularioides and the ends of DS-70 or brevialata just never look quite like that.


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I apologize for double posting part of the translation and not having more time to edit it but of all times to work on it I choose immediately before leaving for work.

GG your French needs some work. LOL
Ca va means different things depending on how it is used in a sentence but on its own it means gonna. Ca va bien means thinks are good or things are fine. Either way your French needs some work but I can imagine just how little you would need French in your area.

Mike


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

"nummularia" means coins. This plant does not resemble coins in any way. So many other species have nearly perfectly round leaves and these do not. Time will tell when a truly round leafed hoya makes it's way and then a positive identification is made. I would prefer this species to be called Hoya sp. Geri until such a time.
Dischidia "nummulariodes" translates to coin-like as these do appear like coins. Or perhaps the name is a derivative of this plant resembling Hoya nummularia so much that it is called a mimic name. Yet these two plants do not resemble each other in any way.


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Thanks Mike... I will go back to HD when I get a chance and see if the nummie is still there... and see if I can recognize the the same leaf growth you refer to!.. My brevialata leaves are rounder, but also noticed they are so very soft/fuzzy or as they've been saying 'pubescent'... as are the leaves on my nummie stem..they are darker green and have a slight point on the end.. and are fuzziER!... Eileen


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

The description of Hoya nummularioides states that the leaves are round or oval. Dischidia nummularia also has either round or oval leaves so either could be said to be coin like as long as you are only looking at a plant with round leaves.

Take a look at this Hoya nummularioides that was collected in Northeastern Thailand. The leaves of this plant in particular are very much like Dischidia nummularia yet the flowers are exactly like Hoya nummularioides. North Eastern Thailand is a seasonally dry area and it would make sense that this Hoya has developed more succulent leaves to survive the dry season. Having said that it also makes sense that Hoya nummularioides plants that come from areas that experience less severe climates would have less succulent leaves.

Hoya nummularioides with coin like leaves

Hoya nummularia was described in 1872 followed by Hoya nummularioides in 1912. Each of the people responsible for collecting and publishing these plants may have only seen them growing in one area so they would not necessarily of had a good idea about the variation that occurs in the species. When it comes down to it the flowers and the very seasonal flowering are more important than the leaf size or shape when discussing the identity of this Hoya. Even though the species name was chosen as a description of the leaves it is obvious that there are plants with small succulent coin like leaves and others with much larger and less succulent round to oval leaves.

Mike


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

For some time now, but particularly after boldly quoting CB stating that nummularioides is her favorite Hoya, I have been worried that she was talking about a different plant than us. I do however feel confident that a person like her would be certain of the identification of her favorite plant. So I did some poking around and this is what I found.

First, she describes what she considers nummularioides as a species that always blooms in October.

Second, she describes the existence of two different species sold under the name nummularioides (Source: here):

I know that the one first identified as H. nummularioides (first sold by Ted Green as Hoya sp. Geri) and the one Kloppenburg sold as #2 are different species.
That first one (first called Geri) drops its peduncle after blooming -- at least it has for me.
DK-2 does not drop its peduncles. It reblooms on the same ones for severa; seaspms.
DK-2 usually has two peduncles per node and twice as more flowers per umbel than the other one but they don't show up as well. It is really not a very attractive plant due to the leaf colour, which frequently looks like "puke" -- literally. --- But it smells good!

Third, she says that the two nummularioides are differentiated as follows. KEY = #1: nummularioides (formerly sp. Geri) and #2: sp. DK-2)
(Source: here):

1. #1 Blooms in October sometimes September; #2 blooms August - Thanksgiving
2. #1 Blooms once on its peduncles, which subsequently fall off; #2 Blooms repeatedly from peduncles
3. #1 Usually one single peduncle per node; #2 Often two peduncles per node
4: #1 Leaves are "small, very dark and covered with silky hairs"; #2: Leaves are "more variable in size from a little larger than a dime up to 2 1/2 inches long by an inch wide. I've seen a few larger than that. The leaf colour is a light olive green and often has brownish edges. The healthiest plant looks a little sick."

So, the upshot of all this is that, for what it is worth, there seem to be two similar plants out there, both identified as nummularioides, but which are readily identified as different species when you have their flowers under a microscope. These are also easy to distinguish in a side by side comparison.

It would seem that, insofar as we trust CB circa 2008, we can feel reasonably reassured that sp. Geri = nummularioides. Now, perhaps someone whose plant is more mature than mine can shed some light on whether their plant blooms in October and drops its peduncles after blooming.


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

To further complicate things, I have one that blooms (also in the fall) but blooms with YELLOW coronas instead of pink. The leaves are bit the most attractive though & look like the one described as "puke". Ha.


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Yeah I saw that! It's in one of the threads I linked! That's neat! And I'd hope you'd chime in. Did you ever end up sending CB cuttings?

And LOL yeah that puke description is awesome. Perhaps articulations like that are the reason descriptions are required to be published in Latin. ^_~

I did notice that CB does not seem to have contested the identity of the plant Joni is selling as nummularioides (IML 0240), in her review of that catalog. Plus, obviously it has the DL stamp of approval. So, maybe this is the 'correct' one?


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Mine is not blooming at this time, and the pictures I used to have on the old computer have been lost. I did find a link to a website that has a picture and description of it however. It is here:
http://www.epiphytica.com/Hoya 4.html
I see they sell it for twice as much. Ha. Guess I better start some cuttings. :-) I can't remember if I ever sent her some of it or not. We did exchange a few cuttings from time to time.


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Great info GG, thanks for posting that.

Mike


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

FWIW I've had nummulariodes for several years, originally purchased from Gardino's Nursery...my plant sprouts little single peduncles at almost every node starting as early as August or September, blooms heavily in the late Fall, and then sporadically all winter until about January...each peduncle may bloom several times during the blooming season, but then they all drop and it sits "peduncle-less" until the following Fall...I love the scent too--it reminds me of our native milkweed--sweet and honey like, with a spicey undertone...


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

I think the only rational course of action is to obtain all the 'nummularioides' right? ^_~ It's for SCIENCE!

Thanks, sberg! I'm not sure what to make of that yet. Hopefully more people will post their plants' patterns as well. ^_^


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If someone gets their hands on that little succulent leafed plant or the puke green stick like plant, in the name of SCIENCE let me know! LOL

Mike


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Which ones Mike? Could you post me a link to which two you want so I know? I'm sorry but I've already forgotten which two they mean by those. Fibro is a big pain literally, I'm such an airhead because of it. :/

~Tina


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Tina the one with the small succulent leaves is in my post up above and the other was a reference to a description made by Christine Burton which you can also find as a hyper link up above.

Mike


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

So Geri(the small leaves and nummularioides? My guess is, the second one with the terrible name is the one that has the puke description? LoL

~Tina


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Although I don't know what it is and don't care, it's pretty and I wanted to say "hi and welcome" KL to the friendliest group on GW!

Denise in Omaha


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Tina it comes down to there being a Hoya nummularioides and possibly two other very closely related species that to my knowledge have not been formally published. If you have one of these plants you can call it Hoya sp aff. nummularioides if you don't feel comfortable with the straight species name.
I don't know if the plant we commonly see as Hoya nummularioides comes from the same stock as Hoya sp Geri, which I read was sold under that name by Ted Green for a time.

Denise I agree name or not this is a very nice Hoya and it's quite different from most others.

Mike


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Oy are you right, I tried to do research on the names and all kind of stuff came up crazy. Confusing for a person who doesn't know much. Anyway, I'm taking a trip to San Diego, leaving on the 19th. While down there, I am hoping to check out some nurseries. I'll keep peepers open and see what all I can find. :) Maybe I'll get lucky? ;)

I printed a copy of the picture you have linked Mike, I will be taking this with me on my search for new hoyas.

~Tina

Here is a link that might be useful: nummularioides image


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Tina if you go to the very top of this thread and look at that plant you will be much better prepared for what you might find in a nursery. The plant in the link I posted would only be available from a specialty Hoya grower in Thailand or perhaps a collector but you will not find that exact one here. Mind you the flowers are very similar between both plants.

Mike


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Thanks Mike! I'm hoping to find someone/something out there in San Diego. I'll check the phone book for something local to where we're going. I'm not even sure exactly where at in San Diego we're heading but we're leaving monday or tuesday. Heh my daughter has already been instructed on my plant care and her response was,"Why do you have to have so many plants!?" LOL Wait till I get back, if I get lucky, I'll have more! :D

~Tina


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RE: Introduction and plant identification

Great research and identity pairing. But I am still in belief that the true nummulariodes is still a different animal. I was introduced many many eyars ago to a hoya that was called H. sp.aff. nummularioides. This plant was very different looking than what the one called Geri = "nummularioides" = pubera and other names suggested by TG.
The plant called aff. nummularioides had true coin-like leaves, rounded and like the size of grapes. Since TG had called what we grow today as nummularioides, the name aff. nummularioides was used. The flowers was somewhat similar but different and seasonal flowering also experienced. I do not know what happened to this species as I have not seen it again. But the plant alone resembled what you would call a "money" plant due to its nearly round thin leaves.
I believe it is still out there but either in someone's collection as an unknown or hopefully still in the wild. It's a diminutive species so it could be less conspicuous than others.


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