Anyway, unless I've been misled, I finally found out that the website belongs to Christine Burton. I've heard she can be ruthless, but I'm amazed that anyone would be that mean and vile in print! I know some of you frequent her forum and I just wonder if anyone knows why she can't make corrections without bringing it down to a level of making personal attacks on people? She may, indeed, be a great authority in the world of Hoyas, but with that attitude and degree of meanness, I can see why she's made so many enemies.

I think I'll take my chances with the experts who may, occasionally, be mistaken but who can at least be kind and answer questions without attacking their peers...

Denise in Omaha

She's still one of the top experts on hoyas, and that took alot of years and time of study, no small feat with all the information that is out there, and I respect that.

I know she's considered a top expert, but I DO take offense to the way she talks with such utter disdain about others who have knowledge to share. Is it really so hard to be both informed AND decent? I don't think so - I've communicated with so many kind-hearted people with expertise in different plant groups over the years and all were enthusastic to share their knowledge and never demeaning when correcting my assumptions, errors, etc. I'm glad that her demeanor doesn't leave a bad taste in your mouth, but it certainly does in mine!

Denise in Omaha

I feel the exact same way. I am in utter disbelief whenever I read her words (mostly when on her Hoyas R Us forum and when she makes corrections). No matter how knowledgable she is, [to me] her disgusting manner of communicating discredits any knowledge she has to offer. There is a nice way to spread your knowledge around, and she simply does not know how to do this.

I'm sure if any of us have researched hoyas for as long as she has, we would be JUST as knowledgable (if not more)....so I don't see why she thinks she has any right to demean anyone. Besides, there are plenty of people out there who are VERY knowledgable on hoyas and who share their information in a *much* nicer way. If it angers her so much to share her knowledge, then why does she??

Gabi

Anyway, I definately understand what you all are saying and how you feel, I just try to keep it in context. It really isn't that important - kind of one of those "it is what it is" things.

Also, I think all those PS the Hoyan things are old, aren't they? I didn't think she was putting them out anymore, could be wrong though.

Anyway, I have read very current posts from her on her forum, and they are just as mean as ever. Also, I just checked and the latest issue of P.S. The Hoyan was written in July 2007 - I doubt she changed much since then unless she had some major psychotherapy :)

But I just can't imagine how people in the Hoya world tolerate her utter disrespect. Did you see that she refers to Carol N. of you-know-where as "Mrs. Quack" and then goes on to trash her opinions? (And a lot of them ARE more opinion than hard fact, and most I agree with...) I don't have a problem with her making corrections to HARD facts, and I don't have a problem with her expressing her opinion when it differs from others on gray areas (like watering, light, dormancy, etc...) But she has to first squash the competition, as if only one of them can be right and it MUST always be her.

This is what one Hoya person told me... "About Chris, don't consider yourself a member in good standing of the hoya club unless you have been crucified by Chris. XXX and I are charter members." (I elminated the name at "XXX") I thought there might be a bit of oversensitivity there until I really started readying PS-The Hoyan...

Denise in Omaha

A very close friend of Christine Burton says that in person she is a wonderful, kind person so I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt but I still can't take reading her words for very long.

Susan

I focus on growing the plants I love & read the nomenclature changes w/ a large grain of salt. Other than for trading purposes, the naming doesn't matter that much to me.

I'd 1st heard from her thru a Hoya Q I had posted at the Amateur Digest, whwere Marina apparently referred my Q to her or she just responded. A number of yrs. later she denied ever making the response she did (I prolly still have the EM containing it but ..., had to do w/ the 'speckles' like those of Pubicalyx being sugary & that one could eat it).

From what I've gathered over the yrs. abt "the warring factions" in Hoyadom, this animosity is quite old & I think has DECADES of history to it. Nothing I need be involved in.

I just read the knowledge & retain what makes sense to me & otherwise try to stay out of the fray.

To agree w/ several comments above, they're seem at least a few Hoya folks out there willing & able to share info in civil ways, more my cup of tea.

Anyway, you've got the right idea, Karen. Just steer clear of the nastiness and glean what we need from the commentary. I guess it takes all kinds to make the world go round!

Denise in Omaha

I met Ms. Burton a short while back and she is a delightful person, witty and sharp. I read some things she had written but they were not related to plants at all.

She is a talented writer and I searched because she told me she had work up on the net. After reading her work I should add that she does employ sarcasm, witt and satire and I think if you met her you would do just what I did and laugh a whole lot. She is very hilarious.

I sure hate it doesn't come off like that when you are reading it. She is a quick and funny lady. A scientist I know at Kew verified to me that (his opinion) she is one of the best Hoya taxonomist there are.

Sure hate to see these old posts hang around. Seems to tarnish people you haven't met. Hope this can help.

Aus-xpat

Denise in Omaha

(Rev.) Leslie R. Cowger

Sorry Aus-Xpat, speaking personally it doesn't help, at all. We're not really tarnishing someone we don't know. Although most of us (here) have never met her in person, her manner of conducting herself OTHER than in person is plenty for us (let me speak for myself), for ME to know I'd think twice about meeting her in person.

The horror stories of her treatment of people are so well known & the experience common to SO MANY OF US here that it's hard not to conclude she's the one w/ the problem.

I myself can be rather blunt & too direct for some. The point is that ONLINE, after inadvertently getting into it w/ a few people, I've had to learn to tone it down some so as not to offend people.

In my youth I had plenty of experience having folks so turned off by my manner (how I seemed to them) that they never got as far as my content (what I had to say). It's not that I'm naive or being Pollyanna about it (or wanting everybody to always like each other, I know that's not reality). It's just that it can obstruct communication & after all, that IS what I'm after here.

Sadly she never realizes how much she alienates people & that for newcomers or those less persistent than us diehards, it can push them away from an enjoyable hobby.

Look how TWO YEARS LATER, folks still remember feeling burned by her manner & attitude. Notice that we don't disparage her knowledge, just the way she treats people.

I've heard & read that in some places it's not OK to ask questions of the teacher (Japan for instance), but that's not how we work here (last I knew). Since when is it OK for teachers to berate & demean people for having questions & asking them in reasonable fashion?