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terrysal_gw

New to Hummingbirds

terrysal
15 years ago

I was given a hummingbird feeder and made some sugar water for it (4:1) but am wondering what the correct height is for the feeder to be off the ground? I have it on a plant holder stake right now because this is what I have so it sits about 2 feet off the ground. Is this too low? I have never seen any cats in the area and I've been here a couple of years now, so I don't see that as a problem. But what is the better height to have this at?

Comments (46)

  • donnalovesblue
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Two feet off the ground might be a bit low, but I'm no expert. And of course they will feed on flowers that low. I usually have several feeders hanging from a sheperd's hook, and the lowest would be about 4 or 5 feet from the ground. My others hang from the eaves of my breezeway, which are pretty high, but they suspend from a chain. Hope this helps.

    Donna

  • terrysal
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I didn't think about the birds feeding on the plants that low. Well, for now I will give it a try and see what happens. I haven't seen a hummingbird yet, and it may be too soon for them here in my area, I don't know. Thanks for the reply.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Clippy Notes

  • susiewantsroses
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    terrysal- I live in TX zone 7b. I would think that your feeder may get visited by ants if it is too low. Keep watch. susie

  • barbzeee
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm also new to hummingbirds and feeders and all that wonderful "stuff" bought a feeder at Walmart and put it up last week and this moring..to my surprise I saw my first one...in real life.. I was in awe of this beauty..haven't a clue what name it's called so I'm doing my homework.. I'm in Florida and soon to be heading back home to the North East..and I'm just so excited by these darling critters...and now I instructed my house keeper..she's got another job..LOL I'll be here till the end of April..so I'm so hoping more will come... and to think my neighbors said it wouldn't work...Oh Yeah of little Faith.. Now I joined this forum to learn from all of you... must confess thought I bought a product to give them...should have read before I did that...but once that's gone..I'll make my own... Now questions for all of you...that have so much knowledge of these darlings... How often do they feed during the day and is there any special time they more frequent the feeder...so I can be sure to be watching...

    Thanks again for all your help..

    God Bless

    BarbZeee

  • sudimari
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Barb...just about everyone ends up with a product their first time around! Unless you go to a speciality store to buy your feeder and get a clerk who shares info with you.

    I don't know much...but the hummers that fed off my front window feeder last year would feed frequently throughout the day. Had one that would come eat and be there for 5 minutes or so. Had another pair that would come take turns eating briefly, fly off, then come back a few minutes later and repeat the routine.

    Hopefully, someone else will have more info! This should bump the thread up again so hopefully someone knowledgable will check it out!

    Suz

  • ctnchpr
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Barb,
    They feed on average about every 10-15 min. They'll be most active at your feeders at sunrise and sunset.

    Do your hummers a favor and trash that red stuff. Sugar is cheap.

  • donnalovesblue
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Barbzeee...don't purchase the commercial "red" nectar, as the red dye used could be harmful to the hummers. Homemade nectar is 4:1 sugar/water. I microwave the water, add the sugar and refrigerate. When ready to use, I either take it out and get it to room temp, or microwave to room temp. In the heat of our southern summers, the nectar can go from fridge right into the feeders!

    As the season progresses, they will spend more time at the feeders. Then in August and Sept., as they trek south, They'll be a feeding frenzy at my 12 feeders! That keeps me pretty busy, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

    Hope you enjoy your stay in Florida...I'm sooooo jealous!
    Enjoy the hummers!

    Donna

  • terrysal
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've been reading about when to expect hummingbirds to my area and all I can find says 'Spring'. Well, when in spring in my area? I am about an hour North of Dallas. We are still having cool nights(45 last night) and the high in the 60's with a cold day on Saturday (48/35). Is it still too soon to expect them here? Should I take the feeders down for now? Thanks for your help!

    Here is a link that might be useful: Clippy Notes

  • donnalovesblue
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    According to the migration map, they are in your area, so leave the feeder up. I bet you'll spot one any day now!

  • digginitup
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Newbie!
    You just wait! I have photo's of up to 12 hummers waiting for their turn to feed. They are territorial and chase eachother away. The 'couples' are different in that one will stand guard nearby while the other drinks. I live in Southern Calif. and as it heats up, they can finish 6oz. in one day. The most vital, and I mean vital, is to clean them with organic soapy hot water every week. Fill your feeder only partially and save the rest in a glass jar in the fridge. When you buy sugar, buy ORGANIC sugar. Use the 4:1 ratio. The purer your feeder is will be quickly rewarded. Any hummingbird not visiting will switch to you! The word gets out and they track each others food source. If you have a filtered drinking water system, use that too. I kid you not, it will soon sound like a hummer airport, especially near sunset. At this end of day is their last chance sip before dark, this is the time to 'train' them to trust you. Let me know if you would like me to post how to do that! Have a great time.

  • barbzeee
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you all for answering me... I have had a daily visit by this male..so far he's the only one and does come early morning..haven't caught him in the evening..and yes, I will throw out the red stuff and make that simple syrup.. the ratio given is 1 part sugar to 4 parts water.. and again I'll only fill the feeder part of the way..as I have now marked on my calendar..feeding info and cleaning LOL My darling housekeeper is gonna enjoy this..but she was here when the young male showed up and enjoyed his visit too..

    I'm am just thrilled that I was able to watch and now thinking maybe I could try this in Pa when I get back home too...Why not...LOL I have this place here bookmarked too..LOL

    Again, I enjoy having my coffee with my little visitor..perhaps when he gets the new supply of food..he'll be back more often...

    Thanks a bunch and I'm open to any more suggestions..

    God Bless

    BarbZeee

  • hummingbird67
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was told when I started feeding hummers to make sure feeder NEVER gets direst sun!My neighbor won't listen and now for the last few years,I have gone from 20 hummers to maybe 2!Can someone help me here?
    thanks!!

  • ctnchpr
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In response to the suggested use of Organic sugar posted above -
    We must be careful when we give sugar to our hummers that's not the standard white, granulated 'table' sugar. 'Organic' refers to the method by which the sugar cane (or beet) was grown, i.e. no herbicides, pesticides or commercial fertilizers used. 'Raw', 'natural', and 'pure' indicates the presence or absence of molasses and other trace elements, which is determined by the refining process. Raw or natural sugar is 95% sucrose, pure sugar is 99.95% sucrose. The organic sugar in the photo is darker than the table sugar, which means it still has some molasses present. Another brand, Florida Crystals Organic, is even darker. Each of them has the ingredient listed as 'Evaporated organic cane juice' - not refined - which means they have all the natural molasses and trace elements of the cane juice. 'Organic' is great for our hummers, but only if it's been refined to the pure sucrose level.

  • ctnchpr
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bump

  • rob_a
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Terry, two feet off the ground is just fine, or ten feet. Your hummers won't care as long as they can get to the feeders. Mine are under the balcony ceiling and one a couple of feet off the floor. My hummers use all of them.

    Barb, will you put out feeders in Penn. when you get back there? You should. You've had too much fun to not enjoy them the rest of the summer. Your Ruby Throats are up there waiting for you.
    Rob

  • barbzeee
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rob, You betcha !! I can't wait...but I have to tell ya I have my goodies packed.. went to Sams club the other day and bought in a supply for my housekeeper...20lbs of Sugar..LOL and of course nothing but the best for my cuties...Domino..hahahaha... My housekeeper is laughing cause she knows I'm just a nut on things like this.. I have 4 feeders and jars for when she makes a batch of nectar..and have the calendar marked...

    Now Rob, I ask you ???? do you think I'm just a little flakey..LOL

    I'm worried that she might forget so I told her I'll call and see how things are going...goodness you think I birth these myself.. they do grow on ya..

    Ah but I do have my neighbors watching now..cause they see me inspecting every so often and changing the feeder...

    God Bless

    BarbZeee
    working the midnight hour here..well way after midnight.. Night all :)

  • rob_a
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Barb, your not flakey, just enthusiastic, and your having wwwaaaayy to much fun! LOL

    I just stopped typing, and from my computer desk looked out the sliding glass door at two of my feeders. A big fight was going on.

    The male finch came for another drink from his favorite ant moat. Haven't seen his mate today. I expect she's sitting on a nest full of eggs.

    I have winds of 30 to 40 mph here today as another cool front blows through. It's amazing to watch hummers drink from a swaying feeder, perfectly in sync with the swaying.

    Rob

  • barbzeee
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rob, Hold on to your hat with those winds..Yikes..amazing though as small as they are they don't get blown away..

    Oh, tonight just at dusk the littlest one.. I call him Nepolian...LOL He went after a cardinal..Yep, that little one really has some nerve LOL Shocked me I would have thought..now wait a minute here pal...you is bigger than me... so hence he is now Nepolian...LOL

    I might start writing a book...of coures a comedy..can ya tell... about my Humming birds and the names I'm creating for them...

    I think I have too much time on my hands lately...and here in a few weeks I've got to be packed up and loaded up to head to the North POLE..LOL... goodness..

    But I am (like you said) having a blast..watching.

    God Bless
    BarbZeee

  • robinbird-56
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    new to hummers too. I have done research and was told not to hang two feeders in sight of each other. I live in Ontario Canada. Have had feeder up for 2 weeks. pretty sure I saw 2 hummers here in yard a few year back.So they must be out there. just not at my feeder. M reading some of the responses, one person saying they had 12 feeders. Did anyone hear the same thing re more than one feeder. Also would like to know how shy they r. My deck is up higher. Will be potting plants they like. Could put it down on the grass ground level. Should I move it as we sit out on the deck?? Are hummers bothered by other birds/feeders as I have a few others. Thanks

  • hawkeye_wx
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    robin, according to the migration maps for recent years, far southeastern Ontario sees hummers beginning in late April. The rest of the province has to wait until May.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Hummer migration maps

  • lionsfan
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We get Ruby throats here and as far as how shy are they? My Dad was refilling a feeder with me inside our garage and a male flew in and landed on the feeder and tried to feed! Just sit fairly still and they will come and go is my response Robin. Oh By the way Hummers will chase birds away from your seed feeders because they are territorial so you may want to separate them.

  • carolreese
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I meet with lots of resistance on this topic, but let me stress that I have read many scientific papers on hummingbird feeding and metabolism before I began making my solution 1 part sugar to 2 parts water. I will mention the scientific studies throughout, so that you may do your own investigations.

    First of all, make it easy on yourself, you do not need to boil the water. The sugar will melt with a little extra stirring, and the solution will not be prevented from spoiling by boiling it. The first hummer to stick his tongue in it introduces microbes. Of course, the feeders should be cleaned and refilled anytime you see cloudiness, usually every few days.

    If you read the studies, you will find that many of the flowers that hummingbirds prefer have nectar concentrations anywhere from thirty percent sugar to an astounding forty-three percent (jewelweed). Some of the desert salvias have even higher concentrations. Here is a link that will list a number of studies on this topic. http://www.springerlink.com/content/r12612v82625n115/

    Researchers found that some of the "hummingbird flowers" that have lower sugar concentrations, are that way in order to discourage bees, which on certain floral structures are NOT good pollinators. Apparently the flower needs hummingbird business but not bees. If you average the sugar concentrations of the flowers a hummingbird visits, it runs around 31-33%.

    For starters, I recommend reading a report by two scientists, Hainsworth and Wolf, biologists with Syracuse University. They studied the feeding habits of hummingbirds presented with different sugar solutions. They found that a hummingbird takes in about the same amount of calories per hour. If the solution is strong, they visit the feeder just a few times an hour. If the solution is weak, the birds visit much more often to take in the same number of calories. Here is the link. http://www.hummingbirds.net/hainsworth.html

    Hummingbirds are actually insectivores, but require a lot of sugar to fuel their search, and fuel is the operative word. A hummingbird must take in an enormous amount of nectar, several times its body its body weight each day. The feeding day is a balance between energy expended for the calories gained. Thats one reason hummingbirds prefer feeders with perches. In fact, hummingbirds spend as much as 80% of the day perched, conserving their energy.

    After learning this, I began making my solutions stronger, two parts water to one part sugar, or about 33%. Those who insist a solution this strong is dangerous, must be unaware of this study, or arenÂt thinking it through. The little birds are eating the SAME AMOUNT of sugar per hour, they just donÂt have to work so hard to get it. I feel entirely comfortable making my sugar solutions stronger after reading that hummingbirds take in about the same amount of calories per hour regardless of the strength of the sugar solution. Weaker solutions just make the hummingbird visit the feeder more often, making it work harder, burn more fuel...and no, a thicker syrup is NOT hard for the hummers to lap up, this is another of those silly unfounded claims.

    I want to make the case for a stronger solution helping out the mama hummer. She is a single mom, getting absolutely no help from the male. She alone incubates the eggs, and has only a few minutes away from them each hour to feed. Once the eggs hatch, she must struggle to keep the hatchlings fed as well, regurgitating nectar and small insects, as well as meet her own needs. A stronger solution means she has to work a little less hard.

    Also realize that all hummingbirds actually need to put on weight later in the summer to bulk up for the coming migratory flight. Hummingbirds drop about 40% of their body weight during the flight south to Central America.

    Speaking at a conference in Pennsylvania a few years ago, I made my case for stronger sugar solutions to an audience that apparently did not take it well.

    A few days after returning home, I received a scolding email stating that my recommendations were dangerous for hummingbirds. One of the claims made in the email was that the hummingbirds might become diabetic. Apparently this person did not know about the study done by Dr. James Hargrove in Georgia that explored the reasons hummingbirds were able to take in so much sugar without becoming diabetic. You can read about it here. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1325055

    Another claim made in the email was that the hummingbirds would need straight water after drinking such a rich mixture and would sip from puddles that might contain pesticides or radiator fluid, poisoning the thirsty little birds. Apparently they did not know about the studies by Drs. Hiebert and Calder, among others, that discussed the problems created by too much water intake. It seems that maintaining a balance of necessary minerals and salts is difficult for a bird that must drink so much fluid throughout the feeding day. Dilute nectar results in more frequent urination which results in loss of minerals and salts, just as you would lose electrolytes if you drank excessive amounts of water. Hummingbirds have occasionally been observed (Adams and Des Lauriers) licking soil, that was later tested and found to have high levels of phosphorous, potassium and calcium. Hmm, seems like a weaker solution is more likely to have birds licking up dangerous compounds, rather than the opposite - though that claim was ludicrous from the start.

    I was also scolded for using more sugar since that might cause more land to go into sugar production. This is where I realize this person did not even understand the first study I recommended she read - where Hainsworth's research showed that the hummingbird will take in the same amount, I repeat, the same amount of sugar each hour, it is just that it takes fewer visits if the sugar mixture is richer. Maybe she can't understand that means that I am not using more sugar, I am just making the hummers caloric needs easier to satisfy. Of course the amount of sugar I use in my feeders compared to the sugar in the soft drinks, candy and cookies in this country is miniscule, so that objection was laughable to start with.

    ItÂs astonishing how some people react to new information, especially information that may question long held beliefs. When I asked the person who wrote the email for references to back her claims, she quoted several "hummingbird experts", people who had written books, for example. When I pressed her for the science that supported their recommendations, there was no response. I supplied her with my references, and hoped to hear that sheÂd learned from their research. IÂm still holding my breath.

  • penny1947
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I tend to disagree with carolreese on the sugar content. On the whole the sugar content averages in the mid 20's. Some flowers are in the low 30's

    The following readings were done by Nancy Newfield who has worked with hummers, banding, training, giving specialized presentations and writing books and papers on hummingbirds for over 20 yrs. To my knowldege Nan has never had a reading in the 40% or higher range.

    Lonicera sempervirens - 1 flower yielded about 12 µL of 23.2% nectar.
    Eranthemum pulchellum - 5 flowers yielded about 5 µL of 21.6% nectar.
    Calliandra haematocephala - 1 flower yielded about 4 µL of 19.6% nectar.
    Cuphea llavea - 1 flower yielded about 15 µL of 32+% nectar.
    Callistemon citrinus- 1 flower yielded about 8 µL of 8.0% nectar.
    Fuchsia [heat tolerant] - 1 flower yielded about 5 µL of 21.4% nectar.
    Cuphea schumannii - 1 flower yielded about 18 microliters [µL] of 29.2% nectar.
    Cuphea micropetala - 1 flower yielded more than 50 microliters [µL] of 29.8% nectar.
    Aesculus pavia v pavia - 1 flower yielded about 12 microliters [µL] of 32.0+% nectar.
    Erythrina 'Bidwillii' - 1 flower yielded about 60 microliters [µL] of 26.2% nectar.
    Lonicera sp or hybrid [pink] - 7 flowers yielded about 8 µL of 26.0% nectar.
    Salvia guaranitica 'Van Remsen' - 2 flowers yielded about 8 microliters [µL] of 28.6% nectar.
    Abutilon pictum - 1 flower yielded about 390 µL of 22.4% nectar.
    Justicia brandegeana - 5 flowers yielded about 18 µL of 25.2% nectar.
    Russelia equisetiformis [red] - 3 flowers yielded about 12 microliters [µL] of 32+% nectar.
    Russelia equisetiformis [yellow] - 3 flowers yielded about 12 µL of 32+% nectar.
    Salvia coccinea [pure white] - 10 flowers yielded about 10 microliters [µL] of 30.1% nectar.
    Salvia coccinea [red] - 5 flowers yielded about 15 µL of 29.0% nectar.
    Salvia coccinea 'Susan's Pinkish Lavender' - 8 flowers yielded about 8 µL of 26.0% nectar.
    Salvia coccinea 'Bicolor' - 7 flowers yielded about 15 µL of 23.6% nectar.
    Salvia iodantha - 10 flowers yielded about 12 µL of 20.8% nectar.
    Salvia 'Anthony Parker' - 10 flowers yielded about 10 µL of 30.6% nectar.
    Justicia carnea - 2 flowers yielded about 30 µL of 25.2% nectar.
    Cuphea llavea - 1 flower yielded about 20 µL of 26.6% nectar.
    Agastache 'Tutti Frutti' - 16 flowers yielded about 5 µL of 29.6% nectar.
    Sinningia sellovii - 1 flower yielded about 40 µL of 32+% nectar.

    These readings were taken over a period from last May until the present.

    I don't believe that more is better. Hummers have survived since the beginning of time on flower nectar that falls within the 3:1 and 5:1 ration not 2:1. They also survived without human intervention. I personally believe that a 2:1 ratio can be potentially harmful to hummingbirds over a period of time. If you want to know more please email me

    Penny

  • mbuckmaster
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm a little uncertain about the ratios involved here...is 33% necessarily equal to 2:1 water to sugar? The reason I ask is that I seem to recall that solids are not dissolved in equal parts into liquids. That is to say, if you were to convert sugar to a liquid form of equal viscosity BEFORE combining it with the water, you could use equal parts. But taking a solid form of sugar--as I think I can safely assume we all do--will result in a different percentage of sugar to water ratio, I think. It's the old "weight vs. volume" issue that culinary experts struggle with.

    I'm speaking in generalities and with no expert knowledge...any chemists or chefs out there who can help with this? Very interesting discussion.

  • penny1947
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I/m not a chemist either so I won't begin to try to answer this. I will try and remember to ask Nan to see if she or Dennis can explain it.

    Penny

  • penny1947
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    mbuckmaster
    On second thought, Why don't you post your question to Nan over on our forum rather than me. I am sure that others would be interested also.

    Penny

  • carolreese
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dear Penny,

    I so appreciate that you have a love of wild things, and want to make sure we do no harm, but I would like to know if you have any scientific basis for your statement that "a 2:1 ration can be potentially harmful over time". If you read the studies I listed, you would be reassured, and may even come to see that weak solutions are perhaps the more harmful, causing the birds to work harder to meet their huge caloric demands, and diluting the minerals and salts in their systems. This is not my claim, but the work of scientists, published in peer reviewed journals.

    Remember, as carefull explained in my earlier message, the hummers are not drinking more sugar, they are simply having to work less hard to meet their needs. It would be a disservice to any creature to restrict it to any one source of food. Obviously, that is not the point here, since the hummers we feed can surely make choices throughout the day beyond the sugar solutions we provide.

    If you used the link that led to Dennis Demchek, you read that the hummingbirds preferred the flowers with nectar that had 30% or better concentration. Dennis's discussion was open minded and though he struck a more moderate choice at a 3:1 ratio for his personal choice, he did not make claims that more was detrimental. It was after reading that the nectar concentration of jewelweed (Impatiens capensis) was over 40% that I began to rethink solution concentrations. The native stands of jewelweed near my house are a-buzz with hummingbirds each summer.

    You are certainly correct that hummingbirds can survive without human intervention. We feed them for our own pleasure mostly, and as I stated in my message, perhaps to make their lives a little easier, especially the single mom.

    If you can show me any scientific research that shows I am doing harm, I am willing to examine it. I assure you that I want the best for the hummingbirds, and believe I am their advocate.

    Best, Carol

  • penny1947
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Carol
    No I really can't site any scientific data off the top of my head but I haven't read anything to support the theory that it is better either. You mentioned that Jewelweed has more than 40% concentration. I have more jewelweed (impatiens capensis) growing than I can possibly give away each year and the hummers that frequent my feeders and flowers far prefer the salvia, agastaches and Cupheas to jewelweed. In fact jewelweed gets very little use here. Perhaps in areas that don't support nectar producing plants the higher concentration of jewelweed is nature's way of providing a food source for them in those areas. Nesting females rely more on insects than they do nectar when they are incubating and feeding young. Nectar only makes up a very little part of their diet while they have young to nurture so they really don't need higher sugar concentrations during that time. They need the protein and other minerals found in the insects and plants. I use 4:1 ratio in the heat of summer since that is when they need the water more than the sugar. There is also plenty of natural food for them at that time. I do use a 3:1 mixture during spring migration and early summer when there is less in bloom.

    I don't necessarily agree with scientists. I have seen information that is indeed harmful. I won't go into details here because I wouldn't want anyone to think because it was written by a member of the scientific community that it was perfectly safe.

    Penny

  • carolreese
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Penny, perhaps if you did read the studies cited, you would find there is nothing to protest. The hummers in my area also love the salvia, agastache, cuphea, Lonicera sempervirens, Spanish flag, etc. that I provide, but they also love the jewelweed, which grows in the same area as cardinal flower, cross vine, Mimulus rigens, and many other plants favored by hummingbirds, so no, a lack of better plants is not the reason these hummingbirds like the jewelweed so well. Maybe you have a lousy population of jewelweed?
    If you will reread my first post, I already made the case for hummingbirds being primarily insectivores, and regurgitating small insects (plus nectar) for the young. My point was that the little mom needed desperately to meet her own caloric needs while seeking out insects for herself and her brood, and that the richer solution allowed her to do this more easily. I dont see what there is to argue about that.
    I find it disappointing that you have no respect for scientists who cared enough about our jeweled feathered friends to carry out such exacting research, instead of just relying on word of mouth. I hope that your love for the birds will drive you to read the science, and realize that these scientists are driven to these investigations for all the right reasons.
    As stated in my first message, I am always surprised to find so much resistance to this information. I try to present my information logically and with references, and find that no one cares enough to do the suggested reading. Its easier to dismiss "scientists" than read their careful work. I am so sorry that is so.

    Carol

  • mbuckmaster
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Carol, thanks for your passionate argument. I respect your point of view. I have two questions: can you answer my ratio questions above? Also, how do you refute Penny's scientific data about the average of nectar content in hummingbird flowers? I did not see you cite where you found your information that "If you average the sugar concentrations of the flowers a hummingbird visits, it runs around 31-33%." Thanks in advance for your continued quest for truth in this.

  • ctnchpr
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    mb,
    This may answer your ratio question:

  • carolreese
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    mb, I'm pasting in the Hainsworth/Wolf article below, which may help explain sugar/water ratios, and also some about feeding preferences. I'll look for the other (Demcheck) article about flower nectar percentage preferences, and seems there were more in that list I suggest on the springerlink.com site.

    From WildBird magazine, May 1993, with permission:

    Hummingbird Feeding
    Researchers Studied Hummingbird Foods and Feeding and Question Using the 4:1 Sugar-Water Ratio In Feeders
    by Reed Hainsworth, Ph.D. and Larry Wolf, Ph.D.

    Obtaining the food needed to live from day to day is a fundamental part of life for birds. Imagine small hummingbirds discovering a large amount of food in one place, such as a feeder. For them a feeder is supernatural. Within a very short time at a feeder, a small, hungry hummingbird can solve its immediate requirements for food.

    The very size of hummingbirds makes their survival an even bigger adventure. Hummingbirds must eat more than their weight in food each day, and they fulfill this need by eating often. Because their survival depends critically on eating frequently more than any other animal - they continually face the danger of starving.

    Hummingbird Meals
    How much and how often do hummingbirds eat? When we studied hummingbirds in the laboratory, we found that they, like humans, eat meals. A meal is a relatively quick and large intake of food, which is followed by time when no feeding occurs while the energy that has been consumed is used. In the lab, hummingbird meals are easy to observe because the birds fly from feeders back to a perch, and they do not come back to a feeder until they are ready for their next meal.
    An X-ray of a Magnificent Hummingbird shows what happens to a meal once it is eaten. Food initially passes to an elastic sac in the neck called a crop, which serves the same storage and supply functions as a stomach. Small amounts of food empty from the crop and pass to the Intestine, where sugar is assimilated into the blood.

    Measurements of excreted fluids show hummingbirds digest all the sugar from sugar-water meals. How often hummingbirds eat meals, and the amount they eat in a day, depends on the energy content of food. Hummingbirds feed on a variety of flower nectars with caloric values that may vary from 10 to 82 calories per meal (1/100 fluid ounces).

    We found that when using a relative rich sugar solution, a three gram male Ruby-throated Hummingbird ate five meals an hour. For each meal he consumed a little less than 1/100 of a fluid ounce.

    When we diluted the food by one-half, the Ruby-throat continued to eat the same volume for each meal, but he ate 14 meals an hour, or one meal every four or five minutes. The crop emptied more rapidly when the energy (sugar) content of its food was lower. Each meal weighed about one-quarter gram, so with 14 meals an hour, the three-gram bird ate 3.6 grams, or more than his weight in one hour! Over a 12-hour daylight feeding period, this hummingbird ate 43 grams of sugar water, or 14 times his weight in food. Even with the richer food, he ate 5.4 times his weight in a day.

    The Impression from this frantic eating schedule seems to confirm that a hummingbird might very quickly starve to death if it does not eat in a short time. How, then, do these birds manage to survive overnight without eating?

    To find out, we measured the amount of energy they used compared to the energy they ate. We measured energy they used while they perched and while they hovered, and we found a three-gram hummingbird used 15 times more energy in a minute to hover than to perch. When we added up the energy a hummingbird used after it ate a meal, we found it went back to eat again before it had utilized all the energy it had eaten. Some energy from each meal was saved and stored as fat.
    Energy storage keeps a hummingbird from starving, but not for long. The energy stored by the end of a day usually is just sufficient to survive overnight.

    What happens if a hummingbird cannot feed enough, or if it is cold and more energy must be used to keep warm overnight? Fortunately, hummingbirds, like hibernating mammals, can lower their body temperature overnight to conserve energy.

    However, we found that hummingbirds do not lower their body temperature unless there is a danger they actually may starve. Even with their abilities to save some energy and to conserve energy in an extreme crisis, the impression is that small hummingbirds face big problems because they must eat often.

    One way to help solve the problem is to eat energy-rich food; a hummingbird can store more energy from each meal, so their survival problems are reduced by feeding on rich foods. Hummingbirds spend most of their feeding time visiting flowers to eat nectar. Is it a rich food?

    Nectar
    To the ancient Greeks, nectar was the drink of the gods, thus you might think nectar is pretty special. Actually flower nectar is a simple fluid composed mainly of water and sugar. Anyone who has sucked a honeysuckle or petunia blossom can testify to nectar's sweetness.

    Analysis of the nectar from 124 plant species showed that it is composed of a combination of sucrose (table sugar), glucose and fructose. None of the nectars contained only glucose or only fructose. When we gave hummingbirds a choice between feeders containing sucrose and those with only glucose or only fructose, they preferred the sucrose.

    Nectar also contains very small amounts of protein, and sodium and potassium salts. However, hummingbirds get most of their protein by eating small insects for a short time each day.

    We were interested to know the sugar concentration, or the amount of sugar dissolved in a volume of water contained in lower nectar. This information would show how natural foods influence hummingbird feeding, and what sugar concentration to mix so hummingbird feeders provide the same food values that hummingbirds get from flower nectar.

    We found that sugar concentrations differ widely among plant species, so no single sugar-water concentration is representative of all flower nectars that hummingbirds eat. The lowest sugar concentration we found was 10 calories in flowers of Iris missouriensis in the mountains of southeastern Arizona, while the highest, 82 calories, was for a Salvia in the Sonoran Desert in the same region.

    The mean average sugar concentration for 65 plant species was 32 calories; the highest concentration was more than twice that, while the lowest was more than three times less than the average. This means hummingbirds will eat more or less frequently depending on the sugar concentration of nectar in the flowers they visit.

    Sugar Solutions
    Considering such large differences In nectar sugar concentrations in flowers, it is possible to mix different solutions of sugar and water to achieve different goals, while still providing food similar to what the birds obtain from plants. Backyard birders have two major goals: to provide food to attract hummingbirds so they continue to visit, and to maintain feeding frequencies so it is easier to watch and enjoy the birds' behavior.

    A hummingbird Is more likely to stay at a feeder when it first arrives if the feeder contains a relatively rich sugar solution. A 60 calorie solution can be mixed for this purpose with equal volumes of sugar and water (1:1 ratio). This high concentration is important to replenish energy reserves during migration, and to fuel the territorial exploits of males and nesting activities of females.

    Once hummingbirds have been attracted with a rich sugar solution for two or three weeks, a lower concentration will increase their feeding activity and still provide sufficient energy. To promote high rates of feeding activity, mix one part sugar with four parts water (1:4 ratio). This 10-calorie solution is similar to lower sugar concentrations in nectar produced by some plants.

    It will seem like there are many more hummingbirds visiting your feeders because each bird will feed 10 to 12 times an hour in comparison to two or three times an hour with richer food. If you wish to make the change from high to low sugar concentrations more gradual, the "average" 35-calorie concentration can be mixed with one part sugar and two parts water (1:2 ratio).

    It Is not necessary to always provide the same concentration as the average found In flowers. Like a feeder for seed-eating birds, a hummingbird feeder is efficient because a bird can find and eat a meal very quickly. Although a higher caloric food in a feeder is more efficient for the birds, it decreases their feeding activity. It helps if neighbors coordinate changes in sugar-water concentrations because hummingbirds always prefer a higher sugar-water concentration. By studying the feeding behavior and physiology of hummingbirds in relation to flower nectar sugar concentrations, it has become obvious there is no best or most healthful feeder solution. Regardless of what sugar-water concentration you use, be sure to keep your feeders clean and your nectar fresh for the birds.

    Dr. Reed Hainsworth and Dr. Larry Wolf are Professors of Biology at Syracuse University in New York. They have been studying hummingbird physiology and ecology for 25 years in the United States and tropical America.

  • carolreese
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    this will take you to the nectar study done by Dennis Demcheck. Read it and see what you conclude. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=demcheck+hummingbird+plants+louisiana+gardens&aq=f&oq=

    Also, this next link takes you to a long and very complex study about nectar concentrations and thoughts on whether it is a strategy to attract the best "critter" for pollination. It also has huge lists of flower nectar concentration, some of which are mind blowing. Salvia greggii for example, more than 60%! You can also pursue many other hummingbird nectar studies at http://www.springerlink.com/content/r12612v82625n115/

    and at http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1650/0010-5422%282000%29102%5B0235%3ARHSPPO%5D2.0.CO%3B2

    As far as the exact amount of sucrose concentration because of the pore space in the sugar crystals, I'm sure it isn't exactly 33% when I mix 2 parts sugar to 1 part water, and somewhere I read that someone used a refractometer and it was in the high 20's, sorry, I do not have that exact reference, in fact, think it was on a forum and not in a scientific journal, but surely someone with a mind for chemistry (not me!) could tell you.

    I read several more of these articles today and feel more comfortable than ever with my ratio. Some of the research had complex studies of how mixture extremes affected feeding efficiency when accounting for viscosity, and how that affected amount of time spent lapping etc...and even how temperature affected those factors. Bottom line, wild hummers have access to many sources of food, and my somewhat rich mixture is just a quick caloric fix when they need it, and by all accounts does no harm.

    Carol

  • carolreese
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    wow, great article on sucrose concentrations, thanks ctnchpr. Even I could understand it!

    carol

  • rob_a
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Carol, if what your saying about a constant calory intake per hour is correct, then logic says we should stick with a one to four ratio. Why? Because with the lower sugar intake, the hummers come back to our feeders more often. And that's our whole purpose here, to enjoy our hummers.

    We are not responsible for feeding all the hummers in the world. Nature takes care of that, and we should not interfere. We just want to attract them to our porches and balconys with safe food for them. With nectar that doesn't change their normal diet, just a nice treat.
    Rob

  • penny1947
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Corol
    I have read various scientific information in the past on various subjects not just hummingbirds and eventually feel that some information is not in the best interest of the subject but more in the interest of the one doing the research so I take that information with a grain of salt. Sorry if you find that unacceptable. You are right maybe I do have lousy jewelweed.

    Penny

  • penny1947
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ge I have to slow down when I am typing ... I make too many mistakes. I do try to proof what I type but I was in a hurry this morning. Sorry I mistyped your name Carol

    Penny

  • carolreese
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rob, Maybe your intention is to make the hummers come more often, but mine is to provide extra calories, especially for the challenged mother hummingbird. I want her to spend more time hunting insects, not visiting my feeder. Thanks for telling me I wasn't responsible for feeding all the hummers in the world. Comments like that are very helpful.
    Penny, I agree with you that some scientists are all about getting their research published, and little else. I don't think this was the case for these articles, these seemed to be genuinely interested in trying to explain pollinator/flower synergisms, and I for one, appreciated their efforts and the information. Of course, I was joking about you having lousy jewelweed. As any hummingbird enthusisast knows, jewelweed is especially favored by hummingbirds, in fact, jewelweed's pendant flowers are specially adapted to hummingbird pollination. This is from the Cornell bird website, so maybe you will not summarily dismiss this information. Here is the link http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/204/articles/foodhabits
    It is also postulated by some authors that the timing (late summer/fall) and extra sweetness of jewelweed nectar is synchronized with the southern migration of the hummingbird. Jewelweed gets pollinated, hummingbirds get fattened up before the big push south. I should have known the joke about jewelweed would not be taken well, but here is all that I ask of any readers of these exchanges. PLEASE don't trounce on people who choose to make a stronger solution, condemning them as doing damage to the the little birds. The science, if anyone cares to read it, will not back that up. I love the little birds, and that is why I am willing to spend so many hours reading the research others have done on their dietary challenges, and so many hours planting their preferred flowers. I believe I am being helpful when I say there is room for discussion and not condemnation when people propose a richer mixture. I am sorry this leads to so much hostility, and I, for the life of me, cannot understand it.

    Carol

  • penny1947
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Carol,
    I don't feel hostile toward you I just happen to have a different opinion than you do with regards to the sugar water ratio. At this time I feel that a consistant diet could present problems down the line. We just don't know enough about their physiology and not enough studies have been done to prove or disprove the long term effects so I will leave it at that.

    I have grown jewelweed for the hummers ever since I moved into this house 10 yrs ago. The hummers here do use it but they just don't show as much interest in it like they do in areas where not much else grows. They are more interested in the other plants or the feeders. In fact this week I will probably have to pull out 200-300 young plants because it is growing in every bed in my yard and my neighbor's yard. I wish it transplanted better than it does then I could take it to a plant swap next month but unfortunately by that time it will be too big and not do well at all. I also pass it along to people who are highly allergic to poison ivy and nettles when I can.

    Penny

  • mbuckmaster
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great information here!....thanks to all.

  • steve1young
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This reminds me so much of how some people dismiss scientific findings and studies regarding global warming.

    Thank you all for sharing information, especially you, Carol. You're quite a trooper.

  • hummersteve
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have followed this thread and a lot of interesting info. But the thing is the average hummer enthusiast would rather see a hummer more often and to do this we need the nectar content to be closer to the 1:4 sugar to water mix for this to happen. I will admit that I tend to make the mix 1-3 when they first arrive and just before they leave. Last year accidently I had some that were getting a 1-1 mix thats because I had this in a wasp trap and I didnt think hummers could even get into this trap to feed but in sept I caught a couple feeding from it. But on the whole when the hummers are frequent here its 1-4 as with 9 out 10 feeders will do.

  • Pachinko
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Carol - I second the guy who said 'You're a trooper!'
    Last week I found myself attacked by passionate hummingbird enthusiasts when I posted my 3:1 ratio on a News article.
    First, considering I might have been mistaken (all these decades!), I searched and found the study you referenced. I could not find one single study to support the panicked warnings of organ failure, heart palpitations, diabetic comas, or exploding tongues.

    None. Nada. Zero. Zilch.

    I am disappointed and saddened that people who have such appreciation for nature and beauty can be so closed minded and pious about conjecture-based beliefs.
    Mankind is still a student. Rules of thumb are a wonderful place to start, but let's not forget we have reasoning, logical brains. We learn from observation, we learn from others. Nothing is gained by throwing blind faith to unproven dogma.

  • frantina
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am very eager to start using a hummingbird feeder with my daughter but, I know that in a short while I will be purchasing a home and will have to move...would it be better to wait until we've moved to start feeding the hummingbirds or is there a way to ensure that the birds will follow us to our new place. We live in a small town and will not be moving that far away but, I know that once we leave there will be no one there to feed the birds. I would hate for them to get acustomed to the feeder only to have it moved leaving them with no place to go. Please advise.

  • eric580
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Put the feeder out when you move. It would help the hummingbirds.

  • eahamel
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If the birds don't follow you, they'll find other places to feed. They won't starve. And new ones who are feeding in the neighborhood you're moving to will find your feeders. I doubt that they'll follow you to your new house, though. I've noticed that the ones at my feeder don't stray far, and sometimes they nest nearby, which is a real treat!

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