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I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

Posted by
RICHARD MANKIN - N. CAROLINA
(RBMankin@webtv.net) on
Fri, Feb 2, 01 at 16:46

The roses which were once deep dark red are now a very dark blue almost black the most beautiful roses i have ever seen.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

i have seen deep red roses go almost black or bluish black.
do you mean you developed seed from this cross and seedlings gave you new colors? please give me a little more info. be interested in your "cross".
big john


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

Richard,

I don't mean to sound too negative but I believe that, although theoretically possible, such a cross would be most difficult to accomplish. As you know, roses and blackberries both fall into the family, Rosaceae and they are from two distinct genera, Rosa and Rubus. There has been only one intergeneric cross using Rosa that I've heard about and that was a cross between Rosa and Hulthemia persica made by Jack Harkness. I believe that the H. persica used for the cross is very similar looking to Rosa. I also remember reading that a cross between two dissimilar genera, such as Rosa and Rubus, would result in a gross looking combination of the two. It would be unlikely that a cross between R. rosa Mr. Lincoln and one of the Rubus species would result in a intergeneric cross that looks just like Mr. Lincoln but in a different color.

This is an area of great interest to me and Ive been working on Rosa x Rubus crosses myself with negative results so far. Would love to hear more about your efforts in this area.

Bob


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

I'd like to hear more about this.


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

  • Posted by
    Sylvia - TX 8a
    (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 19, 01 at 8:59

Tell us more. What are the leaves like? The growth habit? Which was the mother plant, which the pollen?


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

Hey Richard - I crossed a Turkey with a Duck and a Chicken. I got the most beautiful Turducken you've ever seen. I don't have it any more, though, but you should have tasted the etouffee!!!!.....Les


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

Laugh if you will, but there are freaks of nature. I have seen some pretty wierd things in my 50+ years of gardening.Things that was not suppose to be.

Happy Gardening
Wess in Oklahoma


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

Wess,

You are so right. Besides the one intergeneric rose cross that I mentioned there are expamples of other wide crosses as well. Like strawberries crossed with potentilla, Citrus x Poncirus trifoliata, Heuchera sanguinea x Tiarella cordifolia, Alaskan Cedar and Monterey Cypress, Psilanthus ebracteolatus x Coffea arabica, barley maize and wheat x maize for some examples. Sometimes crosses between different species within a genera are possible only in one direction (i.e. plum x apricot but not apricot x plum). Sometimes chemicals are used to help facilitate the intergeneric cross.

Another good example is the horse crossed with a donkey that resulted in a mule. Different species within a genus.

There are many genera within the orchid (Orchidaceae) Family and intergeneric crosses are quite common.

This is a fascinating subject and I'm looking forward to reading more from others on the subject.

Bob


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

Bob,

Excellent examples of wide crosses. The question arises whether some of these plants would then need to be reclassified as to genus or species. Are these classifications not manmade, and somewhat arbitrary?

Two examples: first, the Gladidanthera, a cross of Gladiolus and Acidanthera to achieve rather strongly scented gladiolus. Acidanthera has been reclassified as a Gladiolus, so what becomes of this bigeneric cross?

Secondly, the Pardancanda, a cross of Belamcanda chinensis and Pardanthopsis dichotoma. A respected bigeneric cross, yet at one point (before the historic cross) the similarities noted between the two parents placed them both in the genus Pardanthus. So, is this a wide cross? Pardanthopsis dichotoma is now again reclassified as Iris dichotoma, which would be more closely related to Belamcanda again.

Would like to hear more about any Rosa x Rubus crosses also.

John


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

  • Posted by
    Jeff - N.E.OH 4-5
    (UNCZO@aol.com) on
    Sun, Feb 25, 01 at 18:56

Wess, Bob and John - all of what you said is true. But somehow I honestly doubt the validity of the original post here. Most (but not all) bigeneric crosses are between species of plants that have at least remotely compatible chromasomes. Taking a complex hybrid Tea Rose (red) and crossing it with a blackbery (white flowers) would not yield a dark blue black flower according to the laws of genetics. Yes, somewhere along the lines a mutation could appear, and yes, some things in this world are unexplainable. This here just seems a little vague to me. What I am curious about is the fruit this miraculous new plant produces.....


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

John,

You may very well be right that the crosses you mention are not actually "wide" crosses. The information I listed came from internet searches and I missed any information about the Acidanthera being reclassified as a Gladiolus. There were other crosses listed that I'd consider "wide" crosses. As for Pardancanda this is information I found by David Joyce, Associate Professor, Clark University:

"A note on Pardanthopsis - Rodionenko classified the Vesper Iris, Iris dichotoma, as the sole member of the subgenus Pardanthopsis. In 1967 Samuel Norris crossed it with the Blackberry Lily, Belamcanda chinensis, and began a strain of fertile intergenus hybrids sometimes called Candy Lilies. (The Vesper Iris and the Blackberry Lily had long ago been recognized as similar plants, and in the nineteenth century were even put together in the genus Pardanthus by some authorities.) In 1972 Lenz elevated Pardanthopsis to the level of genus and placed the Vesper Iris in it as P. dichotoma. He put the Candy Lilies in the hybrid genus Pardacanda and named them X Pardacanda norrisii in honor of Norris. This is essentially Rodionenko's classification with Pardanthopsis elevated to a genus.

Genus Pardanthopsis (P. dichotoma, Vesper Iris)

Genus Belamcanda (Blackberry Lilies)

Hybrid genus Pardacanda (Pardanthopsis X Belamcanda; P. norrisii, Candy Lilies)"

As to how wide a cross this is, I don't know. Would love to hear more from others on the subject.
Great topic.

Bob


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

Jeff,

You make a very valid point about the need for at least remote chromosome compatibility. Rubus cultivar chromosome counts range from 2n=14 to 2n=98. If one were thinking about a rosa x rubus cross it might be good to work with diploids roses. That's were I'm going to experiment. Thanks for the imput.

Bob


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

I want to see a picture if you insist this is true!


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

  • Posted by
    Sparaxis 9
    (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 27, 01 at 23:41

The original posting said:
"The roses which were once deep dark red are now a very dark blue almost black the most beautiful roses i have ever seen."
I take this to mean the roses on a particular plant have changed colour. There could be a number of reasons for this - often soil factors, trace elements, etc.
The heading "I crossed a Mr. Lincoln rose ......"
Strikes me as being tongue in cheek, or displaying ignorance. I doubt any pollen has changed hands here at all.
Since this person has disappeared from the forum, we can't persue the matter. It may have even been a 'prank' style message.
This is where the anonymity of these forums allows people to play games with people's minds.
Cheers, Jan


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

I agree with Jan. Nowhere is it mentioned that any seeds or seedlings were produced, and I doubt that all the red flowers on the mother rose plant are going to change to black, because one of them was dusted with a little blackberry pollen.
John NY


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

If I were trying such a cross, I'd stay away from diploids. In fact, diploid Raspberries crossed with diploid usually don't even give diploid hybrids. More likely triploids or tetraploids.

Wide crosses are often easier to accomplish when the parents are polyploids.

Karl


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

I would like some seeds .I have a large selection to trade from.


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

i had a blueish mr lincon once but the whole stem eventually died. i put copper where a new shoot would grow and cot the stem off right at the bud so the new bud would grow over the old stem so when the new stem was fully grown it half covered the old stem where it was cut and it must have taken in some copper. the new shoot seems to try to grow down into the stem to anchor itself. a good experiment anyway , to much copper kills the new shoot. kevin


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE ANY OF THE crosssbreeds mentioned . I will take seeds, rooted cuttings . grafts, or plants propagated from. them . What would it take to get me some ?


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RE: I crossed a Mr.Lincoln rose with a black berry bush

I have heard of a "blackberry rose," an heirloom plant that is a type of blackberry that has a large white double blossom that is rose-like in appearance. The idea appeals to me: first you get to enjoy a rose, then you get to eat the berry. I don't believe the plant I've heard of is actually a rose cross, but rather a sport of a blackberry. If I can ever find one...

Jacqueline


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