(I could search online , but I know people familiar with the subject should have the best links besides digging through all the web sites searching for the best is not something I plan on doing at this difficult time)

I understand plant families etc, and interspecific hybridization

I would also like to know about plants with the same chromozones , in the same family , but different genus (intergeneric hybridizing)
(if there is a list online)

Im mainly interested in fruit tree's
I find things like Shipova A cross between , and mountain, ash in the sorbus genus , crossed with Pear (pyrus genus)

Over one hundred years ago.

I haven't read up on this for a while , but some time back I was really learning of different crosses.

I do not have much time to spend, (as of now )
, but I can learn alot in one day in a few hours,

Mostly I want to get out, and start with native species
Hawthorn, apple,
I also understand mulberry is in the osage orange family
things like that interest me, but I'd like to be responsible, since I am one that tries to control invasive species such as (INTRODUCED) buckthorn honeysuckle.

Thank you very much
I really want to cross some grapes soon, too and I want to make sure all that hard work is done correctly
so I need to touch up on what I learned years ago, picking apart the mal parts of the flowers before they bloom etc.

By the way we all have our strengths, and weaknesses
One of my strenths is good intuition Im pretty good at mixxing things together, and having them come out good
or turning down a street, and finding ONE thousand dollar (at least a $780) Tera GT mountain bicycle(s) in a dumpster.

"Everything came up trying to tell me what a hybrid was..."

You might try being a little more specific in your Internet search. For example, this is what you get when you type how to hybridize grapes in google's advanced search.

ZM

So It did help.
It is kind of the same thing as looking up vinification (how to make wine)

You have to look for hours upon hours just to find a web site everything you search popped up some web site telling you how basic, and easy it is without getting you into the problems you might come accrossed, potientially causing you to dump 5 gallons of wine down the drain.

Luckly Im maticulous , and learned everything I needed to,
but I've heard about it happening alot, and I remembering it taking a long time just finding out multiple web sites to learn the ins, and outs.

So Im still wondering If anyone has some good web sites I can learn from.

Also about the chromozone thing
I have read alot here, in the past , and learned alot
Thank you.

I also wanted to say I know I cannot learn as much as I should in a few hours of reading, but at least this will start me off with more motivation to get started
(this year, and during the next, I can spend the winter learning as much as I can.)

(We have all heard it before, and I've said it before too
I've always wanted to try a particular hobbie,
but I never took the first steps to start out

(ie.bought the equipment or just spent the time starting up.)

"You have to look for hours upon hours just to find a web site..."

There are search tactics that you can learn to narrow a search to focus on your target interest. For example, that advanced search I listed yielded 292,000 results. Unless the "good" ones are in the first few pages, that is way to many results. You can cut the number of possible sites in several ways.

First, go to the Google Advanced Search page. That page has a lot of options for setting up your search, and then for narrowing it.

"I can spend the Winter learning as much as I can...
We have all heard it before, and I've said it before too ...I've always wanted to try a particular hobby, but I never took the first steps to start out (i.e. bought the equipment or just spent the time starting up.)"

A hobby can be good for you in many ways, particularly so after you retire. I knew I wanted to do some form of plant breeding and, being an impatient sort, I looked for a plant that grew and multiplied fast. I wanted to make rapid progress, so I wanted to be able to get several generations of plants in a year. I settled on zinnias, and by growing them both indoors and outdoors, I can get four generations of them in a year. For some plants, that could take decades.

Zinnias already come in a large number of commercially available varieties, so there are many possibilities for crossing those to start with. Then you can make crosses between your crosses and the possibilities become amazing. I have been at this for only a few years, and I am now growing many forms of zinnias that you can't get from a seed packet, and learning more about growing zinnias every day. I am now exploring the possibilities offered by Tissue Culture for my zinnias. TC can add a whole new dimension to plant breeding.

Good luck in kick-starting a new hobby. A hobby that you can pursue with a passion can add a new purpose to your life. It has mine.

ZM

I have many articles on my web page regarding plant breeding, hybridization, selection and so on.

Karl

I checked out your CybeRose website link. That is very impressive. I read a few of your articles. Very good stuff. I bookmarked it for convenient return. You have created a valuable information resource on plant breeding. Thank you.

ZM

The Floricultural Cabinet. 10: 10-11 (1842)
On Selecting Flower Seeds
R. F. of Roxburghshire
Much has been both said and written on the growing of flowers, and what soil they should be grown in, &c; but there has been little about collecting the seed. A few observations upon it I think are required; and as no other writer in the CABINET has touched upon it, I venture to forward the following, and commence with the Dahlia.
When one considers the vast quantity of seedlings raised every year, and comparatively so few good double flowers are produced, if there could be means used by which to curtail the quantity raised in the whole, and yet get as many good flowers, there would be a great saving of trouble as well as expense. I have always been partial to flowers, and am much interested in experiments. One that I tried on the English Marigold exceeded my most sanguine expectations. I took a head and planted each row of seed separate from the others, and I found that the plants from seed nearest the centre of the head was the most double.
I mentioned the circumstance to a nurseryman, and advised him to try the same with the Dahlia seed, which he did the last two years, and the seedlings raised from the seed as collected turned out far better than any he had raised before; so much so, that when one of the Edinburgh nurserymen saw them, he said, "Bless me, Mr. --, how comes it to pass for you to have so many double flowers; for we have only a double one here and there, but you have only a single one here and there?"
If you, or any other readers of the CABINET should think it worthy of a trial, I am confident they will succeed, and I shall feel happy in promoting the interests of floriculture.

Some more recent research from Italy indicates that in sunflowers, the quantity of nuclear DNA differs between seedlings grown from the central seeds and those from the peripheral. The DNA quantity is correlated with the size of cells in the leaves, and with the duration of the flowering period.

Karl

Theor Appl Genet (1993) 85: 506-512.
Nuclear DNA changes within Helianthus annus L.: changes within single progenies and their relationships with plant development
L. Natali, A. Cavallini, G. Cionini, O. Sassoli, P. G. Cionini and M. Durante
The variations in the basic nuclear DNA content, which previous results indicated to occur within one and the same progeny of Helianthus annuus, were studied in detail and correlated with certain developmental features of the plants. The size and organization of the genome of seedlings obtained from seeds (achenes) collected at the periphery (P-seedlings) or in the middle (M-seedlings) of the flowering heads of plants belonging to a line selfed for 10 years were compared. Cytophotometric determinations indicated that the nuclear DNA content of P-seedlings is 14.7% higher than that of M-seedlings. Thermal denaturation and reassociation kinetics of extracted DNAs showed that variations in the redundancy of repetitive DNA, in particular of a family of medium repeated sequences with a Cot range of 2-100, account for the differences in genome size. These findings were confirmed by the results of molecular hybridizations (slot blots), which also indicated a higher amount of ribosomal DNA in the P-seedlings than in the M-seedlings. Cell proliferation is affected by DNA content, and mitotic cycle time is 1h30' longer in the P-seedlings.
By studying mature plants, positive correlations were also found between genome size and both the surface area of leaf epidermal cells (P≤0.01) and flowering time (P≤0.001). It is suggested that the variations of nuclear DNA content and organization observed play a role in determining developmental variability in plant populations, which may be of importance in buffering the effects of changing environmental conditions.

Theor Appl Genet (1996) 92: 285-291.
Nuclear DNA changes within Helianthus annuus L.: variations in the amount and methylation of repetitive DNA within homozygous progenies
A. Cavallini, L. Natali, T. Giordani, M. Durante, P. G. Cionini
Complex alterations in the redundancy and methylation of repeated DNA sequences were shown to differentiate the nuclear genome of individuals belonging to single progenies of homozygous plants of the sunflower. DNA was extracted from seedlings obtained from seeds collected at the periphery of flowering heads (P DNA) or from seedlings obtained from seeds collected in their middle (M DNA). Three fractions of repeated sequences were isolated from genomic DNA: a highly repetitive fraction (HR), which reassociates within an equivalent Cot of about 2 x 10-1, and two medium repetitive fractions (MR1 and MR2) having Cot ranges of about 2 x 10-1-2 and 2-102, respectively. Denaturation kinetics allowed different sequence families to be recognized within each fraction of repetitive DNA, and showed significant differences in sequence redundancy to occur between P and M DNA, particularly as far as the MR2 fraction is concerned. Most DNA sequence families are more represented in P DNA than in M DNA. However, the redundancy of certain sequences is greater in the latter than in the former. Each repetitive DNA fraction was hybridized to Southern blots of genomic P or M DNA which was digested to completion by three pairs of isoschizomeric restriction endonucleases which are either insensitive or sensitive to the methylation of a cytosine in the recognition site. The results obtained showed that the repetitive DNA of H. annuus is highly methylated. Clear-cut differences in the degree of methylation of P and M DNA were found, and these differences were particularly apparent in the MR2 fraction. It is suggested that alterations in the redundancy of given DNA sequences and changes in their methylation patterns are complementary ways to produce continuous genotypic variability within the species which can be exploited in environmental adaptation.

"...have you tried planting seed from the center of the head separately from the seed around the outside? "

I have done that very thing for many zinnia blooms. The seeds toward the center of the bloom are produced at the base of florets, while the seeds at the periphery are at the base of petals. The petals have only a stigma, and no anthers and hence, no pollen. The florets can have both an internal stigma and an anther bundle that can contain pollen, which can self the internal stigma.

For that reason, the petal seeds can be cross-pollinated while the floret seeds are usually selfed. For zinnias like the one pictured to the left, I save the floret seeds in a separate labeled packet and the petal seeds in a separate labeled packet. That allows me to plant them separately, and treat them separately. I usually prefer to plant petal seeds, because of the possibility that they are crossed with some other zinnia.

Since zinnias are composites, each of the florets and petals are a separate flower botanically, and each of their attached seeds are different, to some degree, genetically. The seeds are at best siblings, and it is quite possible and even probable that no two zinnia seeds from the same flower head are genetically the same. That makes for a lot of surprises in zinnia breeding.

ZM

My one experiment with zinnias didn't involve crossing, and wasn't even intended as an experiment.

30+ years ago I moved from Kansas to Florida, and tried to raise a little garden in the pale gray powder that passes for soil in Clearwater. I planted seeds of Lavender Dream (I think it was). Out of maybe a dozen plants, only two had the large, full flowers pictured on the package. And only one was the right color. In fact, around 2/3rds were lavender, while the rest were a rich purple. At the time I figured that the grower hadn't been careful enough about selecting the seeds. But years later I began to suspect that something else might be afoot.

Environmental stress has long been known to produce variations that are rarely or never seen in a population growing in less stressful conditions. I recently found a fascinating paper (Rutherford & Lindquist, 1998) that provides a plausible mechanism for some of the more interesting changes. So, I started another bibliography of papers dealing with stress and variation.

One more example. When I was living in rural Mayetta, KS, I happened to find a specimen of lambs quarters (Chenopodium album) with vivid purple granules on the leaves, rather than the usual white. I killed the plant when I transplanted it, but was lucky enough to find another. I was more careful with that one, and it thrived.

That got me interested in the species, so I looked further. There were many plants growing in a former pig sty. The plants there were of the typical form, and very uniform. But on a dry slope near where I found the two purples, there were several plants that seemed to have dirt on the leaves. When I looked at them more closely, I saw that the tiny wax crystals refracted light like tiny champagne diamonds.

So, in a relatively stress-free environment, all the plants were able to adopt the typical form of the species. Stress, however, revealed latent variability that could be selected and enhanced.

I moved away from Mayetta before I could continue the experiment.

Karl

"But have you noticed any difference in the plants raised from inner and outer seeds of "doubles" -- where both groups come from petal seeds? "

I haven't kept track of the position in the flower of petal seeds. I have noticed that the petal seeds toward the center of the zinnia flower(s) (capitulum or capitula as the botanists call the zinnia blooms) tend to be thinner, but I interpreted that as a space constriction. The petal seeds at the very edge of the flower are usually broader and sometimes a bit shorter. That could be because they have more room to develop, but it could be because the first row of petals is actually somewhat different from successive rows of petals.

The failure of your Lavender zinnias to be all lavender instead of purple could be chalked up to seed impurity caused by the seed grower or the seed seller. There are strains of zinnias that are uniform as to color right out of the seed packet. Since zinnias are bee-pollinated, a percentage of "open pollinated" zinnias are actually F1 hybrids between the maternal parent and a nearby (or not so nearby) paternal parent. In a field of zinnias all of the same color, those gratuitous F1 hybrids aren't noticed as such.

However, the idea that stress could induce genetic variability is interesting. I have heard it said that if you transplant zinnias, that it will make them single. My experience does not bear that out, because I get a lot of single zinnias from seed planted inground, and a lot of transplanted zinnias that are double.

But I think that stress or environmental factors can affect how many pollen florets a zinnia produces. However, I am skeptical whether stress can produce genetic change in plants. And none of my gardening practices have produced any information relevant to whether there is any genetic difference in the seeds of a composite flower dependent on their position in the flower. It would be interesting to know whether that is the case or not.

Thanks for your interesting information. I have seen zinnia plants that raised in my mind the question of whether zinnias have the same genetics from one branch to another. Bud sports have been responsible for several new varieties of roses, and I suppose something like that could occur in other plants, like zinnias.

ZM

ZM,
I am not suggesting that stress produces genetic changes. The evidence is that the "genes" are already present, but in some cases their expression is buffered (or suppressed) in non-stress environments. Extreme stress can overload the buffering mechanism, allowing unsuspected traits to appear--as formerly silenced genes are brought into expression.

When seeds from a wild population are planted in unfamiliar conditions (like Babcock's tarweeds) a wide range of variations can be expressed due to the hidden genetic diversity in the population. But as Rutherford & Lindquist explained, inbred or close-bred lines exposed to extreme stress have their distinctive sorts of variations to reveal. That is to say, the variations expressed in stressful conditions must have a genetic basis. It's just that the genetic differences are not seen when the strain or population is able to buffer their expressions.

Stress does not cause changes in genes. It only allows expression of whatever genes happen to be present, but whose effects are usually hidden.

And different kinds of stress can provoke the expression of different hidden genes and reveal different traits.
Karl

"Stress does not cause changes in genes. It only allows expression of whatever genes happen to be present, but whose effects are usually hidden."

That is a very good explanation.

"And different kinds of stress can provoke the expression of different hidden genes and reveal different traits."

That seems plausible. And "different kinds of stress" can encompass a wide range of factors, many of which we might not think of as "stress", but nevertheless can act as stimuli to those "sleeping" genes. I am wondering, if such a stimulus is applied to one part of a plant, might the response be exhibited in only a part of the plant. I'll discuss this subject area in more depth at a latter time.

ZM

Very likely, sometimes. However, there is considerable evidence of remote signaling. So, a stress in one part of a plant can trigger a response in other parts.

Percy Wright, a Canadian plant breeder, told a story of how "His uncle moved from Saskatchewan had moved west to the Okanagan and for sentimental reasons had grafted some ultra hardy Saskatchewan plums onto a few branches of the peach trees in his orchard. A harsh test winter arrived after a few years which decimated not only the peach crop, but also the trees themselves. Most were killed outright or at the least severely injured. However the peach trees with ultra hardy Saskatchewan plums grafted in the branches had no winter damage whatsoever!"

The environmental stress (cold? short days?) was detected by the ultra hardy plums, which then communicated an appropriate response -- presumably to the roots. When they went dormant, the rest of the tree had no choice but to follow.

Here's a more recent example of remote signaling:

Plant Mol Biol. 2003 Nov; 53(4): 493-511.
Rootstock effects on gene expression patterns in apple tree scions.
Jensen PJ, Rytter J, Detwiler EA, Travis JW, McNellis TW
"Like many fruit trees, apple trees (Malus pumila) do not reproduce true-to-type from seed. Desirable cultivars are clonally propagated by grafting onto rootstocks that can alter the characteristics of the scion. For example, the M.7 EMLA rootstock is semi-dwarfing and reduces the susceptibility of the scion to Erwinia amylovora, the causal agent of fire blight disease. In contrast, the M.9 T337 rootstock is dwarfing and does not alter fire blight susceptibility of the scion. This study represents a comprehensive comparison of gene expression patterns in scions of the 'Gala' apple cultivar grafted to either M.7 EMLA or M.9 T337. Expression was determined by cDNA-AFLP coupled with silver staining of the gels. Scions grafted to the M.9 T337 rootstock showed higher expression of a number of photosynthesis-related, transcription/translation-related, and cell division-related genes, while scions grafted to the M.7 EMLA rootstock showed increased stress-related gene expression. The observed differences in gene expression showed a remarkable correlation with physiological differences between the two graft combinations. The roles that the differentially expressed genes might play in tree stature, stress tolerance, photosynthetic activity, fire blight resistance, and other differences conferred by the two rootstocks are discussed."

The stress (fire blight infection) affected the scion, but the rootstock somehow mediated the response.

You're right that stress "can encompass a wide range of factors, many of which we might not think of as 'stress'." To paraphrase Forest Gump, "Stress is as stress does." In the broad sense, any sort of change in conditions is stressful. Many kinds of environmental stress are easily tolerated and usefully exploited by plants (or animals) long accustomed to them. However, unfamiliar changes/conditions can provoke more profound disturbances.

Changes in photoperiod, for example, are often exploited by plants to provide a trigger for flowering. But when certain plants (e.g., tropical) are exposed to the wide ranging photoperiods of northern regions, they may respond oddly. In its native habitat (Brazil) the beautiful Amaryllis fulgida (Hippeastrum striatum var. fulgidum) bears a cluster of 2-4 flowers on a scape around 18 inches tall. But when the species was first cultivated in Britain in the early 19th century, it changed dramatically.

"This specimen was imported by Mr. Harrison, from Brazil, and was drawn at Aighburgh, April, 1832. Some of the leaves measured twenty-nine inches in length and nearly three in breadth; the first flower-stem (bearing eight flowers) attained the height of thirty inches, and would probably have become somewhat taller, but was generously cut for the completion of the present figure; a second scape immediately succeeded it, twenty-eight inches high and having six flowers."

By the end of the century, the gigantism was gone. Generations of offspring from the original specimens soon became adapted to the British seasons and reverted to the original "type."

Other differences in "stress" are obvious. I was thinking of various species of roses that tolerate very different conditions, and are also stressed by very different conditions. Forest species (e.g., Rosa pinetorum) are weakened by exposure to full sun, whereas R. arkansana thrives in full light. R. rugosa happily tolerates salt spray when grown near the ocean, while others are likely to be killed. Some favor in humus (woodland types) while others grow and flower best in sand.

Furthermore, there are distinct "sensitive periods" (or "critical periods") in plant development. An environmental condition that is usually tolerated without much difficulty can become very stressful during a fairly brief period of transition.

And one more item that I just found while looking for something else:

Biosystems. 1995 ;36 (1):71-7 8527698
Adaptive determinism during salt-adaptation in Sorghum bicolor.
H Seligmann , G N Amzallag
During adaptation to salinity, plants of Sorghum bicolor showed malformations affecting the leaves in development (DPL). At the end of the adaptation process, the plants were regrouped according to their pattern of DPL response. The distribution of the plant population in different patterns depended on environmental conditions. However, a positive relationship between the frequency of a pattern and its rate of development has been found. Similarly, a negative relation between the frequency of a pattern and the rate of senescence for the same pattern has been observed. The results reveal the existence of an orientation of the plant response towards the patterns with highest developmental rate and lowest rate of senescence. This property is defined as "adaptive determinism". Results indicate that the NaCl acts as a trigger for adaptation to a whole range of environmental perturbations. This suggests that adaptation to salinity is not a pre-programed response of the plants, and may be related to learning processes occurring in animals.

Amzallag made some very interesting studies of the effects of salt on sorghum. I just decided to make a bibliography of his papers.

Karl