Return to the Hybridizing Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
hops and cannibus croos breed?

Posted by unorthodox 10 FL (My Page) on
Thu, Apr 8, 04 at 18:24

I read a article that marijuana and japineese hops have been sucessfully crossbreeded. Is this a hoax or is it possible?


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: hops and cannibus cross breed?

They are both in the family cannabinaceae, so it is possible. They are two different genera. There are mechanical requirements, chemistry requirements as well as genetic requirements.
With rhodoendrons extreme crosses may not produce chlorophyl and do not survive.
Any member of the grass family could pollenate corn (gama grass x teosinte x?) but pollen forming a pollen tube that long is unlikely. It amazes me that corn was created several thousand years ago. Corn does not seed itself, could not survive without our intervention.


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

So does this mean if the cross works and you make beer with it, you would or would not get the munchies?

Just asking,,,

Cheri


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

To my knowledge this has not been done successfully, though I suppose there is definitely a small possibility that it could happen. Where was this article? You may be thinking of the persistent stories of hops plants grafted onto cannabis rootstocks, which can indeed be done, though there is little point to it as far as I can tell.


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

hemp & hop share the same chromosome numbers which pushes up the probability a bit. Grafting can indeed be done but changes the properties of niether stock nor scion.

you might need a few tricks to get pollen to take - trimming the pistils, using PEG to force pollen grain germination et


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

i dont think there would any point as if u used mj as the root stock there would be no thc produced as they ae produced in the resin glads and hops dont have these. using hops as the root stock would have no benifit as they grow slower and the plant would still look like mj. therefore there is no point other then to see if it can be done:D


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

Cannabis and hops (Japanese hops, at least) use different methods of sex determination at least, if I remember right (it's been a long time since I thought about any of this...) Cannabis is a X/Y system like humans, while Japanese hops (I don't remember if this applied to the rest of them) uses a screwy system where the sexes have different ploidy from each other.

Can anyone confirm this, or am I losing my mind?


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

"they are produced in the resin glads and hops don't have these"

Actually, hops do have resin glands in their cones (strobili). That is why they are used for bittering, flavoring and preserving beer. But I don't know what this adds to the conversation.


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

I did not read this whole thread but I just wanted to say that this has been tried in the 70's(?) with no success. They have been successfully grafted though but the psychoactive compounds and desired trichome sturctures will not transfer in a graft.


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

Hi
An interesting question .lol But aren't you a little bit concerned about the fact that it's illegal to possess let alone grow these plants?? Would suspect that growing would fall under trafficing laws.?? Would certainly check that out
especially before going public lol.
Gary


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

Female hops are legal in 50 states.
The sedative lupilin is legal in all 50.


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

Just talking out of my hat, but I suspect that if it is possible to crossbreed the two, you'd get something that wouldn't satisfy brewers or, uh, smokers. From a homebrewer's point of view, the lupulin in hops is used for bittering and aroma. It would seem to me that it would be extremely difficult to add THC to the mix and still maintain anything desireable for brewing.

In any case, it seems a bit pointless to try to get two mind altering effects out of one product :)


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

However, genetic engineering could alter the equation I believe. Genetic engineering makes a lot of interesting things possible, from Bacillus Thuringensis (BT) genes in corn to glow-in-the-dark aquarium fish (implanted with fluorescence genes from light-emitting jellyfish.)

It might be possible to use gene injection techniques to make any number of plants (or animals for that matter) contain THC (cannabis' active ingredient).

MM


 o
Crossbreeding Cannabis & Humulus

Both Humulus lupulus and Cannabis sativa are dioecious. Cannabis and Humulus are both diploid (they share the same number of chromosomes). Grafting between the two is possible, with multiple successful cases. And even though Hops is legal to grow in the United States, Cannabis is not. Despite this, what possible difficulties are there in crossbreeding these two plants? I myself am very interested.


 o
Crossbreeding Cannabis & Humulus (Extended Edition)

Since I am unable to edit my previous post, I hope that I am allowed to post yet again to increase my contribution of information to this subject, I feel that there is much left to be discussed. Please forgive me if I incorporate information from my previous post.

I have not been able to locate the article "unorthodox" speaks of. But it would seem unlikely that the cross would take place with 'Humulus Japonicus' (Asian Hop), as 'Humulus Lupulus' (Common Hop) would appear to be a more compatible plant.

And "UUallace" is correct, both cannabis and Humulus are genera within the same family (Cannabaceae). And we know that intergeneric hybrids are possible. However, since there is no documentation of an attempt at crossbreeding cannabis and Humulus, we know very little about what types of difficulties may be encountered. We can merely speculate.

"Elakazal" is most likely correct in his assumption that "unorthodox" is thinking of the urban legend that grafting hops upon cannabis rootstock results in hops containing 'THC'. The reason grafting is not capable of providing the desired results is because the active constituents of cannabis are contained in the trichomes, not in stem or vascular tissues. Thus 'THC' cannot transfer through the root. But I do believe "Elakazal" is incorrect in his belief of cannabis and Humulus having different methods of sex determination.

"Absent" is correct that both cannabis and Humulus are diploid (contain the same number of chromosomes). And we have already established that grafts do not produce there intended effects. Now addressing your vague description of "tricks" intended to get pollen to take. I am not sure why you would trim the pistils, unless it is necessary in using polyethylene glycol (PEG) to force pollen grain germination, a process I am unfamiliar with. I would appreciate clarification.

"Jimster" is correct "lockeys_love_shack", Humulus plants do indeed have resin glands in their cones (strobili). But it still doesn't make grafting any more useful.

Now to address "garyfla". First off, "UUallace" is correct in his statement that Humulus is legal to both grow and possess. I do not know if growing cannabis falls under trafficking laws, but both growing and possession are definitely illegal. I am curious though that if such a feat as creating a hybrid were to be achieved what consequences one might face.

Obviously crossbreeding would require the possession of at least one cannabis plant, which is illegal in most countries. But lets say hypothetically you perform the crossbreeding in a location in which it is not illegal. Then the questions would be whether or not another plant which produces the same active constituents as cannabis would be illegal, and whether or not the resulting plant is sufficiently different to cannabis to truly be considered another plant.

If someone were to create an intergeneric hybrid of 'Humulus Lupulus' and 'Cannabis Sativa' the possession of the resulting plant, assuming it contained 'THC' or some other type of controlled cannabinoid, could very well be illegal. In the United States, Cannabis is a Schedule 1 controlled substance, Nabilone (Synthetic Cannabinoid) is a Schedule 2 controlled substance, and Marinol (Synthetic THC) is a Schedule 3 controlled substance.

But we should remember that there is also the possibility that the hybrid would have what may be considered "negative properties", such as the aesthetic appearance of a cannabis plant but the production of 'Lupulin' or whatever the Humulus equivalent is to 'THC'. We have seen similar crossbreeds go wrong before.

For example, the intergeneric cross between radish (Raphanus sativus) and cabbage (Brassica oleracea). There has been some success in ultimately getting some fertile offspring. Unfortunately the offspring have been useless since the leaves are like a radish and the roots are like a cabbage (ideally the roots would be like radish and the leaves like cabbage).

So the cross might be possible but the exact traits inherited would not be predictable, thus making it too risky to attempt.

Though hypothetically the method with the least risk involved if one wished to attempt this cross in a location where cannabis is illegal would most likely be to grow a female Humulus plant and obtain the pollen of a cannabis plant, but I am not certain if the possession of cannabis pollen is illegal.

Now "hopguy", "unorthodox" didn't specify what, if any, intentions he had pertaining to the theoretical hybrid. I would agree that most likely the hybrid would not be fit for either brewing or smoking, since it would more than likely have a different chemical profile. But this will remain speculation until the day such a hybrid exists, if that day ever comes.

Let me make a list of similarities and differences based on the knowledge I currently have, so that others may have a reference of some sort.

**Plants of intended hybridization:
-Humulus Lupulus (Hardiness Zones: 4a - 8b)
-Cannabis Sativa (Hardiness Zones: ?)

*Similarities:
-Both are naturally diploid, having a chromosome complement of 2n=20.
-Both species are dioecious, with separate male and female plants in the population.
-Both are genera within the same family.
-Both plants are pollinated by the wind.
-Both contain phytoestrogens.
-Both contain Humulene, a naturally occurring monocyclic sesquiterpene which contributes to their characteristic aromas.
-Both have the presence of glandular trichomes on inflorescenes, and both biosynthesize terpenophenolic secondary metabolites in these trichomes.

*Differences:
-Cannabis is annual while Humulus is perennial.
-Humulus lacks buds at the base of the staminate inflorescence.

Now, allow me break down exactly what would need to take place for this hybridization to occur.

First you must have successful pollen germination between the two plants, resulting in seed formation. This requires hand pollination (also called "mechanical pollination") using an artists brush or a cotton swab to transfer the pollen from the male plant to the pistil on the female plant. The first step alone may be quite difficult, though several unverifiable stories claim that seeds have been formed, but that they are dormant. If I may cite one such similar claim:

"It is possible to produce viable grafts between hops and hemp and it is reported that pollination of hops by hemp, annual nettle (Urtica urens) or perennial nettle (Urtica dioica) stimulates cone development, but only abortive embryos are produced."

Now step two would require successful seed germination, assuming that it is even plausible to get this far, seed dormancy (usually embryo dormancy or internal dormancy) could be an issue here. It is caused by a condition of the embryo which prevents germination. This is something I am still researching.

And for my very last reflection, in regards to classification, I wonder what the F1 hybrid resulting from a cross of cannabis and Humulus would be termed. I understand that hybrid speciation is the process wherein hybridization between two different closely related species leads to a distinct phenotype (a physical feature). And that if reproductive isolation is achieved, it may lead to a separate species. But where exactly does that leave this theoretical intergeneric hybrid?

Well, to summerize my final thought, I see no reason that these two plants would be incapable of producing a viable offspring, though it may take certain techniques beyond traditional cross pollination. That being said, I am still a budding amateur botanist so I may have made several mistakes, however I am more than happy to be corrected. So if you feel that something I have stated is incorrect, please post! Feel free to post any and every thought related to whether or not you feel this is even theoretically plausible.

I tip my hat to anyone who has just endured my obscenely long post, and I hope someone finds it useful. Perhaps it will spark up some more discussion on the matter.

Also, if there is a mod or someone of similar standing reading this, could you please edit the title of this thread and correct the improper spelling?


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

why not create a chimera in tissue cultre


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

You can graft um, my great aunt did it. But not cannibus as the root stock, hops as the root, cannibus grafted on. The smoke was not good and gave a headache.

But it worked none the less :P.

Apparently it was like cannibus but it grew up and could be trained on a vine like hops.


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

thinking out freely what if one was to graft one cannibus plant onto a hops then doing it once more but then have the hops grafted onto the cannibus plant, making sure both are diffrent sex, would that make cross-pollanating easyer on the plants? and then once more lets just say that the experiment was a success do it once more but change sexest of both grafted plants and POLLINATE again, then when both hybrids are growed have those make one last plant being truley 50% cannibus 50% hops ---- tell me what you think


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

I think of it this way; there's ONE big reason for wanting to cross Cannibus and Humulus. Not a bad reason, it's an obvious one. Some kind of super beer ... Weed that gets you drunk, whatever.

But both of these plants have been around, and been domesticated, for hundreds and hundreds of years. If a natural hybrid could've been created, it probably would've been done by now.


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

If the actual reproductive barriers were breached, such as with artificially inserting the pollen's genome within an egg and then tricking it into believing it had been properly fertilised, then the only step needed to ensure a successful new species (like the cabbage radish cross mentioned above) would be to double the chromosome number, such that the hybrid would have the full complement of both species' genomes. Done like this, it could easily self-cross with no chromosomal confusions (caused by evolution changing the locations of various genes between the species since they had a common ancestor), and it would likely be hermaphroditic (as hybrids typically revert to the ancestral condition when inter-generic hybrids like the cabbage radish-hybrid are created, where the instructions for parts differ radically). Cannabis is naturally hermaphroditic, and only split into two genders after people began futzing with it to create a more potent plant. That's why hermaphrodites occur naturally, as well as sometimes under stress conditions.

As to whether or not the plant would make both THC and Humulene, one need only look at the precursors to each compound in the hybrid plant. If the precursors for THC and Humulene are made and are not used for anything else by the hybrid due to genes from the other species interfering, then it should make THC and/or Humulene. Its growth habit should be less viney than Humulus, but perhaps more so than modern Cannabis varietals.

As for brewing, and it being nasty, nope, it's not. Honey meade and beer were both brewed with cannabis for millennia before hops (a New World plant) was discovered and brought to Europe (and the rest of the brewing world). Personally, I can't stand the bitter principles of hops, and would welcome some different plants used for legal brewing. There *is* a weed beer made over in Europe, available in Holland and some other markets.

Now a better, perhaps more interesting question would be, "Can Cannabis be crossed with the sugar maple, Acer saccharum, and if so, could one make maple syrup with THC in it?" Can you imagine a pot TREE? And it would look something like a Japanese or Chinese maple, so it could "pass" for legal. Plants *can* be crossed across plant families, it just takes the more drastic action of getting in there and forcing the cells to combine, then tricking them into thinking they are a fertilised egg (again), but this time allowing them to form a thallus in a Petri dish in growth medium until large enough to plant in soil or a hydroponic setup.


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

I haven't read the entire thread, and this may raise the ire of the participants, but a friend of mine suggested crossing Trinidad Scorpion Butch T strain with pot in an effort to make a un-smokeable variety of weed.

I must admit the thought of dope heads experiencing the thrill of Capsaicin in their lung - especially at the level of the Butch T (worlds hottest currently), made me chuckle.


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

Hey everybody I'm new to this forum but im a hydro farmer here in central Florida (25 years). I have an extra green house so i just ordered some hops seeds today off ebay and gonna give it a go. I love the idea off the cross pollination of the two plants. I have somewhat of a lab at my place and have done some grafting of tomato varieties with success. but I look forward to talking with everyone.


 o
RE: hops and cannibus croos breed?

So skateralex... how did you go?


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Hybridizing Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here