Try Impatiens walleriana. Just starting with some colours available at all gardencentres and do some crosses or just selfings to see the offspring coming up and making some inbred lines. After stablilizing flower colour create new hybrids.
Don't know how many generations you could do a year, but 2 could be easy.

Try pansies all colors are available , giants, ruffled , types exist . They are related to violas, violets, johnny jump ups . How closely and can they cross breed ? They are easy to grow and fast growing and ever blooming . Good Luck!
Let us know how you make out.

minutemaid2010,

I suggest zinnias. Easy to grow, fast growing (I have had blooms in as quick as 5 weeks from seed planted indoors, and blooms in 6 to 8 weeks from seed planted outdoors). They come in nearly every color except blue, and zinnia plants range from tiny midgets that start blooming at only 3 inches tall to giants over six feet tall. They have solid colors, bi-colors, tricolors, stripes, spots, picotees, you name it. They have a variety of plant forms and flower forms. And, unlike some flowers, the individual blooms don't fade quickly and can last for weeks.

Cross pollination is easy, because the pollen florets and stigmas are easily manipulated and accessed by simple tools like tweezers or forceps. Or you can use an artists paint brush to pick up pollen from one zinnia flower

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and place it on the stigmas another zinnia flower. You can do a lot of zinnia cross pollination in only a few minutes.

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For more information, see the It Can be Fun to Breed Your Own Zinnias message threads in the Annuals forum.

ZM

Garden peas have been done many times, but there are many more opportunities when you consider the different colored pods.

For example, Rebsie Fairholm wrote: "I crossed the vintage Golden Sweet with a modern sugarsnap cultivar, Sugar Ann. The idea is to create a new sugarsnap variety with golden yellow pods, but numerous other interesting phenotypes have segregated out, including pink-and-white flowers, purple seeds and supersweet yellow mangetouts."

Two or three generations per year should be possible.
Karl

Here is a link that might be useful: Rebsie Fairholm's Pea Crosses

Karl,

Rebsie Fairholm's blog about her work with peas and potatoes is most impressive. Quite interesting and inspirational.

Our original poster, minutemaid2010, seems to have abandoned us, but in case she or others are still interested in this subject, I will continue to plead the case for zinnias by pointing out that they can have interesting color patterns, like two-colored picotee effects.

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They can also have unusual "shaggy" flower forms.

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They can look like sunflowers.

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They can look like dandelions.

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They can look like marigolds.

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They can look like waterlilies.

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Their petals can be packed together in balls.

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Or they can be spaced openly in "see through" flower forms.

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Zinnias have dozens of flower forms, petal forms, colors and colorations, and plant habits. The Thumbelina strain begins blooming when it is only 3 inches tall with mature plants only about 6 inches tall, while several zinnia strains can reach heights of 6 feet or more. And many strains have plants that fit in between those extremes. I could go on with many more examples of zinnia diversity. The possibilities for selecting and crossing and recombining zinnia traits (phenotypes) are almost limitless.

ZM

Hi all,

I left out one of my favorite zinnia strains, the "scabious" or scabiosa flowered strain.

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They occur in several variations.

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You can cross the scabiosa flowered zinnias with cactus flowered zinnias like this one.

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Those hybrids, and recombinations from those hybrids, can produce, among other things, a form of zinnia that I refer to as "echinacea flowered".

Echinacea flowered zinnias can occur in many forms, including those with bicolored guard petals.

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Well, I've loaded up this thread with enough of my zinnia pictures. There are lots more pictures and information in the It can be fun to breed your own zinnias message threads in GardenWeb's Annuals forum, where other zinnia growers have posted some unique pictures from their zinnia gardens.

ZM

I can't argue with you. Zinnias do offer a wealth of opportunities.
20+ years ago, when I lived in Florida, I sowed seeds of a lilac variety (Lavender Dream?) in what passes for soil around Clearwater. The plants and flowers varied so much, I thought the commercial grower had been sloppy about selection. Later I learned that a dramatic change in environmental conditions can reveal variation that is normally concealed.
One plant had flowers like those on the package. Another had nice large flowers of a rich purple. Other plants were shorter, with smaller, less double flowers. I saved seed of the two best, but misplaced them when I moved to California.
One idea I had was to cross one of the green strains (e.g., Envy) with a bicolor purple. The combination of purple and green is charming in some orchids, so I thought it might be attractive in zinnias as well. Or a red/green bicolor, perhaps.
I might try again now that I have room for a garden here in Kentucky.

Karl

Here is a link that might be useful: CybeRose & Bulbs

Karl,

Thanks for that link. It will take me a while to explore all of its content. Those rainlily hybrids are fascinating.

I have been neglecting to include green zinnias in my hybridization, and I plan to do that next year. The Queen Red Lime zinnia looks like it might have originated in a green x red cross. Some examples of it have a dramatic green center. When it was originally introduced a couple of years ago, they used the two-color photo, and a lot of people were disappointed and complained when their Queen Red Limes didn't look like the picture. The current picture is more representative of what you can expect, although the strain seems to have quite a bit of variation. It has a companion Queen Lime this year. There are several green zinnia strains. Maybe I should grow them all, just to "catch up".

It's interesting what you say about environment causing variation in zinnias. I have seen that myself, and sometimes one branch of a zinnia will have flowers significantly different from those on other branches of the same plant. It's almost as if there was some kind of "bud sport" in zinnias.

ZM

ZM,

Those are beautiful, but what I had in mind was more like the Chippendale zinnia, but with green tips instead of yellow; and maybe purple instead of red. I like the sharp contrast.

Have you tried any interspecific Zinnia hybrids? Chippendale is a form of Z. haageana.

Karl

Here is a link that might be useful:

you missed the peppermint strain of zinnia . with red and white streaks on each blossom . so what can zinnias out cross to ? sunflowers, marigolds? dahlias, Jerusalem artichokes ? or ?

Karl,

"Have you tried any interspecific Zinnia hybrids? Chippendale is a form of Z. haageana."

I have made a few half-hearted attempts at interspecific zinnia hybrids, but so far none of them has yielded viable seeds. Zinnia haageana should be crossable with Zinnia violacea (elegans) because they both have 24 chromosomes in the diploid form. (Sterility is the outcome from crossing zinnia species with different chromosome numbers.) You would have trouble if you used a tetraploid form of either. State Fair and Burpee's Big Tetra are tetraploid Z. violacea and Old Mexico is a tetraploid Z. haageana.

There are several interesting strains of Z. haageana in addition to Chippendale. Persian Carpet, Jazzy, and Aztec Sunset come to mind. Aztec Sunset is a dwarf form. This is a picture of one of my indoor specimens of Aztec Sunset from last year.

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I pollinated it extensively with Z. violacea pollen, but no viable seeds set. In the future I will try it with more plants, and try the cross both ways. Although, using the Z. haageana as the female plant should work.

However, the Z. violacea strains Whirligig, Carrousel, and Zig Zag most likely originated from crosses between Haageana and Violacea, and I have had no trouble crossing them with other strains of Violacea.

"...but what I had in mind was more like the Chippendale zinnia, but with green tips instead of yellow; and maybe purple instead of red. I like the sharp contrast."

You can get sharp contrast with the Whirligigs and the compact growing Swizzles

Several of my Z. violacea specimens have had reasonably sharp bi-color contrast.

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It is true that crossing them with solid colors tends to produce more graduated bi-color transitions.

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But you are right, that inter-species zinnia crosses hold the promise of some more interesting hybrid zinnias, by introducing some "new blood".

ZM

ZM,

After posting my note, I did some searching on Google Books and came up with this from the Gardeners' Chronicle - December 18, 1875 - p. 782

"We have received from Messrs. Haage & Schmidt, seedsmen, of Erfurt, samples of flowers of a new type of double Zinnia called x Zinnia Darwinii, and which not only show considerable variety of colour, but represent also four diverse types differing, it would seem, in habit and stature. Z. Darwinii major is described as of compact branched habit, with large globular flower-heads. These flower-heads reached us in a somewhat shrivelled state, but they were densely double, and measured fully 2 inches across and about 1 1/2 inch in depth. The leaves (those only just beneath the flowers being seen) were sessile, triangular-ovate with an acute point, and three-nerved. The colours of the flowers included scarlet, orange-scarlet, orange-yellow, rosy purple, sulphur, and white. Z. Darwinii vittata had striped flowers, including such combinations as white with purple flakes, purple with white flakes, yellow with crimson flakes, sulphur with purple flakes, &c. Others labelled Z. Darwinii were described as being of dwarf compact-growing habit and extremely free-flowering; the flower-heads were conical and imbricately double, and differed from the others in being smaller, about 1 1/2 inch across and 1 1/4 inch deep, very full double, with a high centre; the colours were considerably varied, and included white, sulphur, yellow, orange, and two or three shades between purple and crimson. Z. Darwinii pyramidalis vittata is taller in habit, growing like an inverted pyramid, and the forms sent were mostly pale-coloured, more or less flaked. This new form of Zinnia is, we learn, a hybrid raised between Z. Haageana (mexicanum) and Z. elegans, and is said to be very constant. It is abundantly distinct in character from the beautiful double forms of Zinnia elegans now becoming popular, and, so far as can be judged from cut flowers, appears to be quite an acquisition for the flower garden."

So, Haageana is apparently the source for yellow and flakes (streaks) in the garden zinnias.

I'm copying the link to Neil Anderson's book, Flower Breeding and Genetics: Issues, Challenges and Opportunities for the 21st Century. Chapter 12 deals with zinnias.

There are loads of possibilities. Now, if we could just get rid of the mildew that seems so common.

Karl

Here is a link that might be useful: Zinnia Hybrids

Farmfreedom,

"...you missed the peppermint strain of zinnia ...with red and white streaks on each blossom"

Yes, actually the Peppermint Stick strain comes in a varied assortment of stripes and spots in many different colors. They cross nicely with other zinnias to create some interesting new forms. There is even an Improved Peppermint strain, but at the moment I don't remember who is offering it.

However, I quite growing the striped and spotted zinnias several years ago (including the similar Candy Cane and Candy Stripe strains), because I didn't like the effect (admittedly a mere personal preference) and I didn't want the stripes and spots to show up in an out-of-control sort of way. I had visions of my entire population of zinnias becoming "contaminated" with the stripes and spots. (The striped and spotted effect in Tulips is caused by a virus disease, although it is probably just genetic, and not a disease, in zinnias.) I have no idea if there was a real danger that the stripes and spots would "take over", but I did have this striped scabious zinnia pop up unexpectedly this year.

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I was surprised to see it, because it has been several years since I grew any striped or spotted zinnias. I did not save seeds from this one.

"...so what can zinnias out cross to ? sunflowers, marigolds? dahlias, Jerusalem artichokes ? or ?"

As far as I know, none of those things, unless you used genetic engineering (gene transfer) techniques. And, with genetic engineering, I guess you could pretty much cross anything with anything.

However, the genus Zinnia contains 19 species of annual herbs, perennial shrubs, and subshrubs, so there are a lot of potential interspecific zinnia crosses. I don't know of any successful intergeneric (between genus) crosses involving zinnias. When I was younger and didn't know any better, I tried a lot of zinnia x marigold and marigold x zinnia crosses, with no success.

ZM

Karl,

"I'm copying the link to Neil Anderson's book, Flower Breeding and Genetics: Issues, Challenges and Opportunities for the 21st Century. Chapter 12 deals with zinnias. "

That is a very useful link for this discussion. Actually, I own that book. It wasn't cheap, even in paperback, but I considered it to be a worthwhile investment for my zinnia hobby. It is probably the single most informative source on zinnias.

It's interesting that that Garden Chronicle article dated all the way back to 1875.

"There are loads of possibilities. Now, if we could just get rid of the mildew that seems so common."

There are lots of possibilities for breeding zinnias. And Powdery Mildew is a serious zinnia problem. It's not common in hot Summer weather, at least not here, but as the weather cools in the Fall and the days shorten, and as the zinnia plants themselves age and lose their disease resistance, the conditions favoring Powdery Mildew increase. There are sprays that you can use, some systemic. Spacing the zinnia plants farther apart also seems to help.

It has been reported that silicon can increase zinnia resistance to disease. Although silicon is not needed as a nutrient, zinnias, and many other plants, will take up considerable amounts of soluble silicon if it is available in the soil. It is useful in several ways to them, including strengthening cell walls.

I also grow zinnias indoors, and I give them some water soluble potassium silicate in their liquid nutrients. It seems to help. But Powdery Mildew, and other foliage diseases, remain as open problems to be investigated.

ZM

farmfreedom wrote " so what can zinnias out cross to ? sunflowers, marigolds? dahlias, Jerusalem artichokes ?"

Not much opportunity outside the genus, apparently. I found one report of hybrids between Zinnia and Tragoceras:

BRITTONIA 22(3): 359-369
Artificial hybridization of the genera zinnia (Sect. Mendezia) and tragoceras (Compositae-Zinninae)
Omotoye Olorode and Andrew M. Torres

However, according to the abstract:

"Morphological and cytological observations on Zinnia-Tragoceras hybrids are presented. At the diploid level, the cytology of the artificial hybrids indicates that Zinnia sect. Mendezia and Tragoceras share a common genomic background, and that the divergence of the two genera has been accompanied by reciprocal translocations involving nonhomologous chromosomes. Diakinesis associations in artificial tetraploids of the hybrids have been used to shed light on the extent of chromosome homology of the parents. As a result of this study Tragoceras has been merged into Zinnia as a new section."

It often happens that someone raises an intergeneric hybrid only to have the two genera merged.

Karl

Here is a link that might be useful: Artificial hybridization of the genera zinnia (Sect. Mendezia) and tragoceras (Compositae-Zinninae)

Karl,

Very interesting article.

"As a result of this study Tragoceras has been merged into Zinnia as a new section."

That has been taken into account in the Taxonomy section of Chapter 12 of Flower Breeding and Genetics. On page 338 it says,

"The 13 species in subgenus Zinnia are classified into three sections: Mendezia, Tragoceros, and Zinnia (McVaugh, 1984; Torres, 1963a,b). Section Zinnia contains three species: Z. haageana Regel, Z. peruviana, and Z. violacea Cav. (formerly Z. elegans Jacq.)."

It is interesting that the Zinnia-Tragoceras article describes their technique of "artificial hybridization". Advanced techniques of hybridization seem worthy of further study.

Thanks for the Zinnia-Tragoceras link. I'm wondering now if the spelling of Tragoceros in Stimart & Boyle's Chapter 12 is correct. I'm also wondering if there is a seed source for Zinnia tragoceras. I have a few seeds of Zinnia peruviana that I plan to grow inside this Winter.

ZM

ZM,
I just checked the International Plant Name Index for Zinnia [Tragoceros] spp.
http://www.ipni.org

Tragoceros americanum S.F.Blake -- Contr. U.S. Natl. Herb. 26: 240. 1930
Tragoceros flavicomum DC. -- Prodr. (DC.) 5: 533. 1836 [1-10 Oct 1836]
Tragoceros microglossum DC. -- Prodr. (DC.) 5: 533. 1836 [1-10 Oct 1836]
Tragoceros mocinianus A.Gray -- Proc. Amer. Acad. Arts 21: 388. 1886
Tragoceros peucedanifolium Spreng. -- Syst. Veg. (ed. 16) [Sprengel] 3: 576. 1826 [Jan-Mar 1826]
Tragoceros schiedeanum Less. -- Linnaea 9: 269. 1834
Tragoceros venustum A.M.Torres -- Brittonia 15: 301, fig. 7. 1963
Tragoceros zinnioides Kunth -- Nov. Gen. Sp. [H.B.K.] 4: 249, t. 385. 1820

I guess the last one is now Zinnia zinnioides, the zinnia-like zinnia.

Karl

Here is a link that might be useful: Zinnia zinnioides

Karl,

That's an interesting group of additions to the Zinnia genus. Some of those entries are quite old, including the one that is now Z. zinnioides. That list seems to confirm the "os" ending on Tragoceros that Boyle and Stimart used.

ZM

You missed the "candy cane "Or "peppermint stick' zinnia they were red and white striped . and came out in the 1990s.
so what can you cross : dahlias, sunflowers, safflowers,Jeruselem artichokes , dandylions with ????

FarmFreedom,

You must have missed our replies to your original message on
Wed, Dec 8, 10 at 10:38. I responded to your earlier message above on Wed, Dec 8, 10 at 14:50. Karl also responded on Wed, Dec 8, 10 at 16:11. You seem to have repeated your original message here. However, if you have more comments or questions, don't hesitate. We will do our best to respond.

ZM

Hello,
I am new here, and am not too sure how soon one might respond to my query. In short, I'm wanting to work with Zinnias and their genetics. Much of what I have read above is extremely interesting to me. I suppose I should like to see if one cannot create a truly dark purple, (think Aubergine) Zinnia. Everyone seems to offer lavender, or some mutant form of mauve, but I've never seen a truly "grape" colored Zinnia.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,
Kevin Knoblett
kpknoblett@gmail.com

Kevin,

Welcome to the discussions of zinnias. I am a zinnia hobbyist who has dabbled with breeding them for the last few years, and I find them to be quite interesting and entertaining.

"I suppose I should like to see if one cannot create a truly dark purple"

I share that goal. Zinnias are capable of deep purple and even mahogany shades, but unfortunately the best example of that color, a variety named Black Ruby, has been unavailable for many years. Zinnia Black Ruby won the 1941 AAS award, and it was a near-black dark purple-maroon. In yellowish incandescent light, it did appear black. Unfortunately, Black Ruby seems to be extinct, despite the AAS award. Some Persian Carpets have purples nearly as dark as Black Ruby.

Black Ruby proved that zinnias are capable of extremely dark purples and maroons, but I haven't seen any in a cactus flowered zinnia. Zinnia Black Ruby was a Lilliput or Pompon class zinnia. If Black Ruby were still available, we could cross it with purple cactus specimens selected from commercial mixes and we would be well on our way to a really dark purple cactus flowered zinnia. Zinnia Dark Jewels might be a good place to start in a search for a dark purple cactus zinnia. I purchased several packets of Dark Jewels and plan to grow them out this Spring. Benary's Giant Wine is a step in that direction, but it isn't nearly as dark as you and I would like. Zinnia Persian Carpet has some individuals with purples nearly as deep as Black Ruby.

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By crossing Whirligigs with solid red, I got this two-tone red that combines plum and scarlet.

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It should be possible to get a deeper colored version of that.

A related goal that I have is to breed a strain of Spider Flowered zinnias that are very dark, but have white or light pink or light yellow tips on its petals. At dusk, when the light was dim, all that you would see would be those light colored petal tips, and I think that would look kind of like fireworks. I have found that growing and breeding zinnias is a lot of fun. I have linked to a related group of "It can be fun to breed your own zinnias" message threads in messages above.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

THANK YOU ZEN!
Would you mind if I contacted you off site, so that a more direct line of communication can take place?
My email address is kpknoblett@gmail.com
Would love to hear more and am looking forward to working with you towards this goal. I have a fair amount of gentics background, so we ought to be able to achieve good results.
Respectfully,
Kevin

Kevin,

I also would like to hear more from you and I am looking forward to working with you towards our goal of obtaining or producing large very dark zinnias. I don't want to post my email address in the open, but I have sent you an email so that we can communicate that way. There are also advantages to communicating here, because others can "chime in" and we might also benefit from some "peer review."

I have noticed that some Whirligig zinnias have a fairly dark purple, such as this one.

Maybe that is more cerise than purple. But it is somewhat dark. There was a similar Whirligig picture posted above in my message on Wed, Dec 8, 10 at 12:46. I will be growing a lot more Whirligigs (and the similar Zig Zags) this Spring. I saved some seeds from a plum-colored recombinant zinnia last year, and I will be growing them out this Spring as well. Perhaps natural variation will give some deeper colors in that grouping. I will watch for any dark purples that may appear in those plantings.

The zinnia DNA produced Black Ruby once, and I presume that it can do so again. I have a feeling that somewhere someone is still growing some Black Ruby zinnias from seeds that they have been saving and re-saving over the years. But I haven't heard yet of any private source or public source of zinnia Black Ruby. This may be a case where it is actually easier to "re-invent the wheel." And Black Ruby was a tiny one-inch Lilliput bloom, anyway.

ZM

Kevin,

I am linking in here a picture of zinnias from Swallowtail Garden Seeds online catalog that shows some apparently dark colored large zinnia flowers.

That is a picture of their Benary's Giant (Blue Point) formula mix. That picture was obviously taken in dappled sun, with patches of shade which exaggerate the darkness of some of the blooms, but still the picture gives us a taste of what large dark zinnias might look like.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

Hey Zen,
I agree,the photo shows some intriguing colors, but the shading distorts their true hue and depth. I'm still working the Internet trying to find either the elusive Black Ruby Zinnia, OR perhaps a little known seed source, (US or overseas) that might have a collection of zinnias that hertofore we were unaware of.
I hope all is well for you. Counting down the days until the snow is gone and seeds are sprouting for our projects.

Best regards,
Kevin