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The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Posted by georgeiii (My Page) on
Mon, Jan 9, 12 at 14:39

Photobucket

What I'm looking for are holes in my explaination. Photo's are in photobucket/ChristianWarlock.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

There are many holes. Most involve untrue or unsubstantiated claims. Or at best, just aren't given in a real context. The title is fine, it's the content that has untrue claims.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Your mumbling again homie. Pictures tell the tale and there's plenty of them. See this is my way of fighting the "Year of Fear". A simple solution many can do any where.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Hey georgey,
instead of saying a squirt of fertilzer, how about giving an amount and a product.
example:
2 tsp of MG 10-10-10 every three days. That'd be useful.


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Instructions

Instructions!
Instructions to build each unit would be nice too.
Not just a list of possible pieces but actual pictures and dimensions and where to put holes and what not. Also, what kind of medium to use. Not just perlite and styrofoam, but "x" amount of perlite with "y" amount of styrofoam chips approxiamtely _" x _" made from styrofoam cups, or something along those lines.
That the kind of useful information that will get people to try it.
And how to start the plants. I understand the whole idea, but to someone new to this it would be difficult to expect you can drop a seed in a pot of perlite with 2 gallons of water 3" below the perlite and somehow the seeds will just sprout and grow roots down through the perlite and into the water.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

"2 tsp of MG 10-10-10 every three days. "

MG fertilizer, in hydroponics? Urea N needs bacteria to break it down. Exmpl;//When using a fast draining medium that cant support microbe life, you need added compost tea that will help convert the urea N. Just a hint.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Hey georgeiii,
No need to get mad at me just because you cant (or wont) share much of anything. That just isn't my fault. You make plenty of claims, but have never once shared anything of value in regards to research you've done with the plants in your beloved system design, nor even from any reputable source that supports your claims. Pictures aren't proof of any research or documentation you conducted to support your claims. Yes, there are plenty of pictures, and I've been looking at them for over a year now. but all they show is buckets with mediocre plants growing in them. WOO-HOO, WOOPIE, big freaking deal. I do much better on my own thank you.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Mastergardener;
I am well aware that MG is not normally used in hydroponics. I am also aware the Georgey has previously stated he uses whatever fertilzer was available on the shelf. That is why my example was stated as MG.
On a side, but related note, I have successfully grown both herbs (basil, and parsley) and spider plants in DWC using MG 15-30-15 and epsom salts only. Therefore, I can't condone the pretense that it CAN NOT be used. I will go so far as to say it's not the best option though.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Yea I am not sure, I have heard the same thing gizzman. People have had results in DWC using MG so I dont know. I grew 2 tomatoes last year in a "dead" perlite peat mix with miracle grow tomato feed which has 5% other N besides urea so maybe they got all the N from that.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Good news, I am stupid!!!!!;)

This whole time I heard urea needs living organisms to turn it to ammonium N but thats not the case. I read with in a few hours of water contact urea is converted to ammonium. Still not 100% sure on this subject.


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RE:The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

I hate to leave 3 post!!! Sorry I was right in the first place urea is no good in hydro systems. It in fact needs bacteria to convert it.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

What part of a hydroponic "Cal Mag" additive/nutrient needs to be broken down? Unless your using a organic product, no hydroponic nutrient needs to be be broken down. Nor needs to be converted into a water soluble state?


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

We were discussing miracle grow (MG) not cal-mag.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Urea N.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Oh, OK, I have seen cal-mag referred to as MG before. It just didn't cross my mind that MG was short for Miracle-Gro.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Georgii:

A title is very important in any writing, whether it be a scientific article or a simple picture book. The title tells the reader what the paper is about in a few words or short sentence. Try to stick on topic about sustainable hydroponics instead of including information not relevant to sustainability.

You should include information about how the system excludes the use of electricity in any way, which is very important in sustainability. You do say that no pumps are needed, but try to be more specific.

Sometimes nutrients could leach into the water in the reservoir (you probably disagree but thats ok), so it would be better for you make a minimalistic statement and say that there is no nutrient waste from these systems.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

^Yea, synthetic fertilizers, plastics, um........

First off, this system WILL NOT GROW FOOD.

That does not sound sustainable.

Maybe it is made from recycled material but that material means your relying on man to make the garden, in turn is not sustainable. You need hydroponic fertilizer that is all nitrate N no urea N.

Breeding your own fish and utilizing aquaponics is sustainable.

I grow in potting mix's as I dont have the time to be messing with ph ect.... If you wanted to produce fruits, veggies this system would never work. To me growing things to look at is more of a hobby then trying to produce food.

I could see a huge tomato bush 5 feet high growing in a 5 gal bucket watered with fertilizer daily in a heavy grow potting mix.

I cant see a huge 5' tomato plant growing out of a dwc 5 gal bucket with out an entire trellis system (pvc, ropes, ect..), or else the bucket lid will break and the plant will fall.

I know hydro outpreforms soil but thats if you do it right, this is why I stick with soilless potting mix's.

I must say DWC is an easy hydroponics system so you are in the right direction. Not sure if changing water is for me, and cleaning and dumping cleaners to stop alea and other growth worrying about water temp,ec,ph,pmm. I think I will carry mix's, repot plants and water and watch grow. I am not saying one is better but if your a beginner like me you will NOT use hydroponics.

I uderstand they make systems with one mother bucket that the way to go.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

mastergardener
DWC is very easy and user friendly for someone new to hydro.
How much attention you pay is really up to you. yeah, you can optimize growth by constantly checking, changing and adjusting the nutrients but simply topping with water until you've added as much as you started with then changing out the whole thing will give wonderful results as well (vs watering some potting soil)
You comparison of 5 gallons of soil vs 5 gallons of water is not quite correct. even with soil in the bucket, a 5' tall tomato plant will require support. with out it, it will grow along the ground just as it will in a DWC system. the plant will not break the lid of the bucket. I've attached a picture of a plant I grew a few years ago. It's not in a five gallon bucket but a similar sized sterlite tub.



notice the plastic tube at the bottom of the picture. to drain the water you simply turn it down and into something to catch it. Then water your houseplant with the waste.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Yup, ultimately hydro wins. Less water/fertilizer no pest pobs, I just tend to like soilless. Just a preference.

When it comes to a container I can place a tomatoe cage and call it a day with a dwc bucket you need external trellising. I am just a gardener so maybe I am off subject but, theres a reason every back yard has potted plants, not a bunch of DWC buckets.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Ya, most people think pot is the only thing that can be grown hydroponically. So they just never even consider hydroponics as an option. If they did, they would discover just how easy it is to grow just about anything hydroponically. Not to mention the better quality, higher yields, and the advantages of being able to grow their produce out of season.

As well as the ability to customize any hydroponic system/s to grow anywhere (even rooftops, vertical walls, boats, balcony rails, etc.), anywhere there's space not being used (inside or out). Along with higher yields per plant, growing hydroponically also allows for closer plant density, as well as being able to take advantage of vertical space. The difference in having a 200 square foot soil garden, and a 200 square foot hydroponic garden, you can grow as much as 6 times as many plants or more in the same amount of space if designed well, and you take advantage of vertical space using multiple levels.

So ya, there is a reason you don't see many backyards with hydroponic systems. But it's not because it's hard or dosen't work. Simply that as the saying goes you cant teach old dogs new tricks (no offense to anybody). It's just much easier to teach the new generation (the kids) than it is to teach the old generation (adults stuck in their old ways). Once the kids grow up and become adults themselves, you'll see a huge increase in hydroponic systems in peoples backyards growing produce to feed their families.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Yea your really right homehydro. One day I hope to get into full hydroponics.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Guys I forgot my flash drive. I have answers for you. As to the urea is is broken down by microbical actions in the water. It becomes a secondary nutrient in the water instead of major ones in the insert. That's what makes it sustainable. That what makes it work. Microbes in the air that finds an excellent enviroment waiting for them in the dark waters. Remember what I said about roots, the trhee different kinds. Well there are three roots you have to grow. The first roots out the seed are called seeker roots. The roots that branch off those are nutrient roots, (ph senative) and the third set (air roots)that branch off those interacts with gathering the broken down nutients or urea caused by the microbes. That's why all you have to do is add water not change it. Now the make up mix of Styrofoam and Perlite is a judement call. I use a bucket filled with water and just pour both in. The chips are just that chips I tear of foam packing. The only consideration I use is if water sticks to it I don't use it. The chips size is about one inch to 1/16th. The size isn't important. It's used to stop the Perlite from packing together and help provide structure for the plant. I don't know if I answered everything but I'll look in on Monday.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

"Microbes in the air that finds an excellent enviroment waiting for them in the dark waters"

I never thought of this, you changed the way I look at gardening georgeiii, you really did!

To think of what we can't see with our eye is just amazing.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Interesting Georgey. I thought the whole concept of "non nutrient" hydroponics was that the water didn't contain any nutrients in them and yet now you're saying the urea leaches into the water where microbes change them into usable forms of nitrogen. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that is not how it works. I'm just saying its a direct contradiction to how you originally presented you pod idea.

@mastergardener
a bunch of DWC systems in your backyard would become labor intensive so you're much more likely to see systems that use a central rez and recirculate to it. Here's my NFT/EnF from a few years ago:



That was, I believe, 18 plants in a 4 X 2 area.
As for your comment about support for tomatoes, that same tomato cage you use would work just as well with a DWC system. only difference is you'd need to attach it (aka duct tape it) to the bucket. well except you hydro toms would probably be bigger plants so need a larger cage.
But as HH pointed out, its the old timers who won't commit to the change.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Very nice peppers!!!!!!


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Now there's a picture on that Photobucket/ChristianWarlock that has 100 - 6 foot Silver Queen corn growing in a 3'x6' space. Why that first try didn't produce large ears, it produced 80 or so ears. The next year I had good production for size and number of ears. That picture is on there too. A simple switch from Garden Pod to Nanny Pod was the trick.
Grizz I switch the conceptual part to Sustainable Hydroponics. Mastergardener the name of the science is Phenology. The interrelationships of animal life during the four seasons. The difference between anti-aerobic and aerobic microbes and how their seasonal growth effect each other. Same way in the soil. Let me see how I can put this. Without aeration Anti-aerobic microbes feed on the roots because of ph (rot) but the plant response by only growing seeker roots which respond better (just getting by)to high or lower ph. There's a picture on that same site of a Peruvian pepper grown in water without aeration. The picture includes what happens when you do add air. The water boils like a witch's caldrum. But all that bubbling fades away in a day or two. In the anti-aerobic water alage forms thru out the water. While with aerated alage forms on the roots like hair catching a lot of those nutrients the microbes break up. The longer the alge the more nutrients leaking into the water. But that wasn't the reason for the problen with the size of the tomato's it was the size of the insert. It wasn't large enough. The roots couldn't absorb it before it was leaked out. I mean the ph was fine. Inside the insert it was 5.3 outside it was 5.8 to 6.8. I let the water from the insert drain into a cup to test it.

Photobucket

That's a Mimosa tree growing in the larger 5lb insert.

Photobucket

A Tangerine tree in a 5lb insert. Problem is tho I don't have a greenhouse but large windows. I do have a China Doll that's grown 18" in a month. That there too. Now the question is does my explanation make sense to you.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Having airborn micro organisms is nothing new and, and exist in every hydroponic system. They have been around as long as soil born micro organisms. In fact they have been here before any other life on the planet. Fact is the air currents are always blowing around dust and dirt all the time, even if you cant feel it. Unless your in a sealed room, that was completely sanitized, and the only air source is air that was filtered through a Hepa filter like in hospitals, you'll always have airborne micro organisms. That also includes fungi. Spores are always in the air, and will always grow under the right conditions. And just like in soil, you have both kinds, good and bad (pathogenic) micro organisms/fungi. There isn't anything new or special there. Good ones help the plants, and pathogenic ones don't.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Thanks for your response Georgey. Though your grammar is a bit broken, I believe I understand what you're saying.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Aw homehydro you did bring more light on that subject, thanks.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Photobucket

This is why you can leave plants adjust their own ph.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Another proverb from the book of georgeiii, and no proof of squat again I see.

"This is why you can leave plants adjust their own ph.

Why, because you posted a picture of some RELATIVELY clean water? Why, because you posted a picture of some roots that don't look to be anywhere near the 2 months old you say they are? Why, because anyone can post a picture (even ones they didn't take or know anything about) then make any claim they want about them? Again you just post pictures that don't mean squat, give no real data on the testing methods used to come to your conclusions (so it can be evaluated by others), give no reputable sources that would support the untrue claims of plants extruding their own pH adjusters. All you post as your proof is pictures that can easily be doctored, misrepresented, and/or may not even be taken by you. Even if they were your pictures, there isn't a shred of evidence that would even come close to truly supporting your claims.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Ha,haaa awww homie you such a child. Anyone can look at Photobucket/ChristianWarlock and see the dates when each part of the method was done. There dates you can't change.
But please make yourself forgetable. The stat list from the GardenWeb shows others are following. Are you going to email them on the side to explain yourself further. Haaaaa poor child. Maybe offer to sell them a Quad Pod instead.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Georgeii, Can show some pictures of Tomatoes or maybe peppers they have high Ca/Mg needs and your fertilizer would never work. You do not understand plant nutrition, the plants you grow do not need much fertilizer.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Sure georgeiii anyone can look up your Photobucket pictures. Be my guest and post that info all you want, it only helps to show my point. The more you do the more people will see the same BS I do. And you still haven't figured out WHY the pictures still don't prove squat. But demanding to be beveled just because you say so won't work with me. Every time you post your BS, I'll let people know the other side to that coin.

I have plenty of pictures with dates (Though I hate them so I disabled that feature). But, I can alter them if I wanted to (even after the picture was taken if I wanted to). But how can a date in a picture provide proof of untrue claims that need real documentation (not dates) to prove? Fact is georgeiii, if there was any truth to your claims, I would be interested. But after years the same runaround avoiding providing anything tangible to support them, I have come to the simple conclusion that it's nothing more than a bad joke. A bad joke you keep telling over and over.

Even though you have the right (freedom of speech) to keep telling your jokes, I have the same right (freedom of speech) to show how bad they are. Every time you tell the same bad joke, I'll blow the punchline for you.


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georgeiii

I forgot to add:

The stat list from the GardenWeb shows others are following. Are you going to email them on the side to explain yourself further. Haaaaa poor child. Maybe offer to sell them a Quad Pod instead.

Not really sure what your thinking is there, but I have never SPAMMED any user of any forum. Much less this one. If you do, that's your business (and wouldn't really surprise me). But I live in a different world than you do, and I believe in ethics.

If your stupid comment is relating to a request by grizzman that I contact him personally to discus a disagreement. Go ahead and ask him yourself, I have yet to find the time to bother. I have talked to him through e-mail's before, but the last contact was about a year ago, and even then only a couple of e-mails. Fact is the forum is not a popularity contest to me, and I'm not looking for alias. Thus I don't concern myself with things like who likes me or not.

People I agree with are people I agree with, and people I don't agree with I don't agree with. Knowing how to disagree with someone, yet still hold a conversation with them, as well as still be civil with them at the same time is apparently a lost art to some (especially you georgeiii).


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

gizzman,

I look at the nft with jalapeno plants and I want to try it this season. Any tips? Anyone can help too.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

I got distracted and posted this too soon.

I need tip on how to keep water temps down in the nft. Do I need a chiller if growing on my deck.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Where do you live? Thats very important. I live in central North Carolina. The first year i did it, I just kept the sun off the rez with rigid insulation and had the plants where they only got direct sun from about 9:00 to 1:30 or so. That's them in my picture above. The next year, I moved everything a bit away from the house to where it got full sun all day and I had a lot of algae problem. Then deer and it all went to pot. I will say, that first year was a very mild summer. only sporadic 90° days with no more than a week straight of it whereas that next year was much hotter with the temperature normally in the 90's and breaking 100° several times. so it's really hard to compare the two.
If I try it again this year (not sure if I have the time) I'll probably use the frozen water bottle method to cool the rez as needed and do a better job of sealing the system to keep out light.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Zone 5b/6

I may not get around to trying it either but it is interesting. I am increasing my garden to the max this year :) 30+ soilless container grown peppers, not to mention the others in ground.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Photobucket

Photobucket

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Photobucket

Just wanted to post a few pictures. The Ca/Mg isn't a problem if you think of it in the long term. The plant storge those over time for the amount it needs to flower. It's you who decides when that is. Just stop giving it food. I'm growing several kinds of peppers this year. You can see pictures on that web sight for many different kinds grown in different containers. I can see by my stat number that more of you are getting interested in my methods. Thank you. My only interest is getting more and more people able to grow their own food and plant needs. While doing no harm to the Earth.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Yes I think it is good to use in-organics in pots ot hydroponics then using them in the ground. I really want you to succeed at growing vegatibles so you can show them this year!!!!I am not saying you need a ph meter but for your food crops try increasing your fertilizer it will lower ph an they are heavy eaters. They need nutrition to give you fruit. I hear people use plaster of paris as a Ca and S source. Try epsom salts for Mg? I dont know, this will be cool if you try this and see how it works I bet it would.

You should make compost tea and use it in the dwc and then you really would be not having to get anything.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

I know some would be impressed by general pictures, and text that is missing many details. But as usual, there is nothing to be impressed with in those pictures. In the first set of pictures, the first one looks to be nothing more than a jumbled bunch twigs. The other one only shows some small spindly brown roots in clear water.

The second set of pictures dosen't show much of anything again. The first picture just shows some 1 inch tall or so seedlings. The lighting might be a factor, but the leaves look to be quite yellow in color. Beyond that I also clearly see brown blotching in most of them. The other picture, well heck getting sprouts isn't much of an accomplishment.

The third set of pictures only shows that the plant in the first picture is clearly showing signs of chlorosis and not getting proper nutrition. Including brown and dead edges on many of the leaves. The second picture still dosen't show anything but a stick with some very small sprouting leaves. I'm not impressed by seeing a bucket with tubes going in and out of it either, I know how all 6 types of hydroponic systems work.

The last picture shows nothing more than some small sprouts. The one pot in the front shows some white roots coming out the bottom. That is nothing more than I would expect to see from plants that small. Even without using nutrients or checking pH, I rarely check pH for plants that small, as well as only use a fraction of the nutrients I would otherwise. I'm simply not impressed by plants that clearly show problems, and/or seedling with white roots. But I'm sure many would be. I probably would have before I began growing hydroponically myself.


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I just had comment once again on a untrue claim

I hate to post two in a row, but just had comment once again on a completely untrue claim.

"The Ca/Mg isn't a problem if you think of it in the long term. The plant storge those over time for the amount it needs to flower.".

This is untrue, calcium is immobile in plant tissue. They are unable to store it, then use it later in other plant tissue as needed. Once it is stored, it's stuck where it was stored/used. Here is more info on plants and calcium:

Calcium: A Transportation Problem and was written by Dr. Lynette Morgan who is a respected hydroponics researcher (not just some guy/wannabee in some forum who makes up his own reality).

You can find her profile easily at the growingedge-dot-com by searching "by Dr. Lynette Morgan" (including the quotations). Or copying and pasting:

http://www.growingedge-dot-com/staff/profiles/morgan.html

But replacing the (-dot-) with a real dot (.).


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Yup very true. When you fix a Ca Mg deficiency in a plant the leaves that were curled will still stay like that with a ll the new growth normal again.

If you think your just not going to feed your tomato plant and a Tomato is just going to pop out of no where, I can tell you that will not be the case. To produce fruit you need a better nutritional program.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

I don't know where other than homies mind I said any thing different than I've been saying. Calium is a secondary nutrient so it's stored till the plant needs it. So now can the adults have a conversation. I'm increasing the times I fertilze and the size of the insert. Those two are the only changes I think I'll need. As for the lighting on my pictures and knowing the difference between insect damage and chlorosis get real. See there you go with other peoples names. Anybody who wants to contest what I say can come on here. Damn homie if you have experts let them come here. Everybodies got a name. The more you spam the sadder you look homie


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Homehydro does nothing but state facts. I happened to be quite familiar with hydroponics and plant nutrition and have no choice but to agree with facts.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

georgeiii

I don't know where other than homies mind I said any thing different than I've been saying
I know, you continue to repeat the same untrue statements that aren't based in any form of reality over and over, as if by simply doing do they will somehow magically come true.

Calium is a secondary nutrient so it's stored till the plant needs it.
This is an absolutely untrue statement, and I proved it in my earlier post. You may want to expand your universe georgeiii, thus have a look at what a REAL EXPERT has to say.

So now can the adults have a conversation.
Absolutely, as soon as you quit telling the same old magical bedtime story's. The adults aren't interested in fiction, their only interested it non-fiction. That's something you don't have a clue about, so here's the definition:

(Non-fiction (or nonfiction)
is the form of any narrative, account, or other communicative work whose assertions and descriptions are understood to be "FACT".

I'm increasing the times I fertilze and the size of the insert. Those two are the only changes I think I'll need.
Good for you, their your plants, do with them as you wish.

As for the lighting on my pictures and knowing the difference between insect damage and chlorosis get real.
I'm very real!!! If your pictures are trying to show insect damage or anything else, well you simply need help with the camera. Your photography skills are lacking. Fact is just about every picture you post has what you call insect damage, and you try pass them off as proof of healthy plants, and your bogus claims.

Fact is one of the best defenses agents insect damage (and/or any disease) is growing a healthy plant. The only plants you grow that are relatively healthy are grown in soil, or just transplanted into a hydro system from soil. At the same time you constantly profess you have come up with the greatest plant growing system in the world. As well as somehow have been able to change the biological functions of plants to suit your needs. Really, you think people are that stupid???

See there you go with other peoples names
Why haven't you ever once given any references to support your statements? It's simple, they don't exist!!!

Anybody who wants to contest what I say can come on here
Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing every time you post untrue/unsubstantiated claims. I'm contesting them!!!! Thank you for the invite to continue doing so (not that I need a invitation).

Damn homie if you have experts let them come here. Everybodies got a name. The more you spam the sadder you look homie
I've been asking you to produce at least one shared of evidence to support your bogus claims for two years now. You don't have one single bit of evidence to support your bogus claims (much less an EXPERT). I just posted an article, written by a well renowned EXPERT (I even gave her bio for proof of that). georgeiii you've got nothing, nothing more than bogus claims that have no truth to them, and your fantasies.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

I think it is clear to even new growers that those plants are hurt.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

"Calcium is deposited in plants cell walls during their formation"
See you didn't even bother to read your own posting. That's why I say your just a copy and paste artist. Your Dr was very clear about that and didn't in any way mention anything about how my Hydroponics work. But it was an intersting article and help me understand how temp was a problem. I have several light closets in my attic. The roses are in one of them. Now it's true I shouldn't have posted those pictures but let's face it I'm a gardener. I was so glad the roses worked that my ego got away from me. Next time I'll try and be more discreet.
But... there is something I want to say. There is no expert in this but me. Hello everyone. Plain ordinary me. That what you can get over. So please READ what you link and what ever facts mastergardeners talking about or is that just another email address the web gives you for being montior.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics 1

I just looked at my Photobucket account and the numbers say more and more people are looking. That's all I'm looking for. People who are looking to help themselves.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

georgeiii

"Calcium is deposited in plants cell walls during their formation"
See you didn't even bother to read your own posting. That's why I say your just a copy and paste artist.

Well no Dah. I never said that calcium was not used in the plant's cell walls. There's a HUGE difference in plants having elements in their plant tissue, and them being mobile "STORED" for later use. But if you actually bother to read and UNDERSTAND the article, the key phrase that contradicts your statements is:

"Calcium, once incorporated into plant tissue is immobile so a constant supply is necessary for continued growth.

The key word is "IMMOBILE" that means that once the calcium is deposited, it cant be moved to other plant tissue when needed as you claim. I have read the article many times, that is how I know that calcium is "IMMOBILE" in plant tissue. Hence my original statement "calcium is immobile in plant tissue. They are unable to store it, then use it later in other plant tissue as needed. Once it is stored, it's stuck where it was stored/used."

Another key statement you missed:

"Calcium pectate is like a glue binding adjacent cells together so if inadequate calcium is not transported during cell formation, tissues become less stable and prone to disintegration."

This statement and especially phrase "during cell formation" also clearly shows that calcium is "IMMOBILE" and cant be "STORED" for later use. Calcium is the glue for cell formation in plant tissue, and if you don't have proper bonding between the cells on the molecular level (gluing them together) they will decompose prematurely, causing sick plants as well as be much more susceptible to disease. Bottom line is plants need calcium to grow healthy plant tissue, and because calcium is "IMMOBILE," a steady supply of it is needed if you want healthy new plant growth. georgeiii, please try read and understand the posted material, rather than just picking one sentience and letting the whole concept/point of it go over your head.

Your Dr was very clear about that and didn't in any way mention anything about how my Hydroponics work.
Yes, she is absolutely EXTREMELY CLEAR about the point (if you are able to read). There is no reason what so ever she would mention YOUR grow system. she also didn't specify the info was for plants grown in DWC or NFT systems only either. I wonder Why that is? Well no Dah, plants in your system don't defy nature, they react the same all the time whether in your system, in soil, in hydroponics, hanging pots,, glass on the counter, or even in what you call "your hydroponics." There is no difference in how plants uptake nutrients, why they need them, or how their able to use them. That's reality!!

But it was an intersting article and help me understand how temp was a problem.
Well I'm glad you learned something, even if you didn't understand many of the points. Though nutrient temps, and temps in the root zone are really a basic lesson. In fact in most cases (such as myself years ago) that's the first lesson new hydroponic growers learn. Hopefully you'll be able to but your ego aside and continue to learn more from REAL "EXPERTS," then you'll be able to grow better healthier plants.

But... there is something I want to say. There is no expert in this but me. Hello everyone. Plain ordinary me. That what you can get over.
If you believe the only qualifications for being an expert in plant biology and/or hydroponics is nothing more than just posting anything you want in a forum (the only qualifications you have), well that's just really sad and pathetic. Hey I post in a forum! I have that qualification, that makes me an EXPERT too!!!!!!

I just looked at my Photobucket account and the numbers say more and more people are looking. That's all I'm looking for. People who are looking to help themselves.
I looked at your Photobucket pictures myself, did you win me over, do I seem impressed? Fact is just because you post a link many, many, many times and people look at it does not mean they like what they see. The reason more and more people are looking is because you post the link in just about every other post of yours. You weren't doing that before. I can create a bogus website with bogus information, post the link to it over and over and watch the hits come in. That dosen't make anything on the site (in your case pictures) any more true.

Fact is your just out for popularity, and yes I know all your looking for is to get clicks/visits. You have a long way to go in learning how to make money online. Getting visitors isn't the same as impressing them. Those are two very different things, and getting visitors is always easy to do. I know tricks that will give you thousands of visitors overnight, and just what your looking for if all you are interested in is getting visitors. But those tricks aren't for me because I know the value of wanting returning visitors.


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RE: Dr Lynette's article

Interesting read you provided there, HH. Thanks.
What I found most interesting is:
The Low root temperature is a cause of calcium transport problems, (I always thought it was hi temps)
a lower EC will help, (I guess those EC meters might be useful after all)
browning of an unopened leaf was a sign of Ca problems,
You can spray the green tomatoes with a 0.2% CaN solution to help with BER.
Again, thanks for the link. it was enlightening.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Well, I thought I knew a lot about hydroponics untill I talked to an expert. He makes his own fertilizer. He told me the science behind why chlorine does not hurt plants and he uses it as a cleaner all the time. He laughed away my hydrogyn peroxide. I learned a lot from one conversation. I have learned a good deal from HomeHydro, Gizz, everyone too, so thanks.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Well seems spring is starting early here. I started 24 different seeds, repotted 30 Meyer lemons(six into Hydro-Pods), 5 Avocado's they now need to be repotted into Hydro-Pots), 5 Norfolk pines (Hydro-Pods)Did I mention about the tubers? The sweet potatos are rooting like crazy but haven't produced any top cover. The Jicama ( Mexican potato)are showing above the Perlite. The three of the five Batata's have nice growth. The Cashew is putting out new leaves. A fellow gardener of mine dropped off 8 new pepper seeds. And I ordered soybeans. I'm going to try them in Hydro-Pots. I found seeds from last year one was a heirloom red/green big boy tomato. I like this busy time.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Yea georgeiii spring is early.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Sorry for 2 posts I got distracted and posted early.

Spring is early this year. Can not wait too. Have a good one.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

So bottom line out of all the plants that georgeiii mentions, only 16 of them are now in a hydroponic system. Even those only just got transplanted, and there is no telling if they will even live. But georgeiii titled this thread "Sustainable Hydroponics." Not just transplanted from soil into hydroponics. Thus misleading people into thinking all the plants were actually grown hydroponically from the start.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

TheMasterGardener1
"He told me the science behind why chlorine does not hurt plants and he uses it as a cleaner all the time.

That would be interesting. I would be willing to bet if you took a gallon of chlorine and poured it on a section of grass in your front yard it would not live long. Here is an article that I was re reading for another reason but thought it might shed some light on the subject. I'm specifically speaking about the section titled "1. Chlorination of water supplies

Water Wisdom For Hydroponics


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

thanks homehydro. I must of heard it wrong, he must of not used it to run in the system, but used it to sterelize, then let it dechlorinate.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Ha,hhaaa awww homie still trying to interpet me. But yes I do grow plants that started in soil and I transfered into the Sustainable system and there's much more than just 16. The Macintosh red is blooming now and the Moon glow pear which was in gritty mix is blooming also. The Macintosh is about five feet high and about the same wide. The blooms were first out with new branchs following close behind. I started the Apple tree last year and the pear a few weeks ago. The Bardados nuts that I started in the Sustainable system three years ago will be producing nuts this year. Four in a media mix and three in Sustainable systems. Something I found interesting is how the cuttings from last year have grown over the winter. This is where an understanding of Phenlogy came in helpful. The roses, the brugmansia cuttings,Avocado's, The Batata's, Jicama's, infact all of the plant material I added over the winter needs to be repotted. I'm going to miss the bubbling sound in my bed room. Hell, I didn't know really how much stuff I produced over the winter. The top yard is nearly full. An yes I have pictures of everything. You don't know what a tickle it gives me to see all these plants labeled, do not keep wet, growing in just plain water. Wait, I didn't mention the Lemon trees, the Tangerine or the Grapefruit trees.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

georgeiii

But yes I do grow plants that started in soil and I transfered into the Sustainable system
Well no Dahh, I've seen your pictures REMEMBER. It dosen't take an Einstein to figure that out, even when you try and imply otherwise.

I transfered into the Sustainable system and there's much more than just 16
By gorge I think your right (even though not correct), I think my math was off. You stated "I started 24 different seeds" witch is where my math was off. You don't state any of them were in hydro (even though you always imply that). So starting from the beginning,

You stated:
Actual
6...........repotted 30 Meyer lemons(six into Hydro-Pods)
0...........5 Avocado's they "now need to be re-potted into Hydro-Pots" (but aren't in hydro yet so they don't count)
5...........5 Norfolk pines (Hydro-Pods)
3...........and three in Sustainable systems
Total.....14....(not 16)

So the total is actually lower. And out of those plants you mentioned at least 6 were just transplanted, and by all means shouldn't even count, but I still gave you credit anyway. Though you continuously try and mislead people into thinking every plant you mention has been growing in hydro from seeds/cuttings. That's just one of your sidetracking/misleading techniques. Witch is completely false, and evident in your pictures for everyone to see. Just because you may mention a thousand plants, and post a thousand pictures on another website, that dosen't make them hydroponically grown plants. Very few are, and even those were just transplanted from soil. Again very evident in your pictures for anyone who takes a closer look to see.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Photobucket

Just repotted these Brugmansia into Hydro-Buckets. The root system for the larger one was three feet long. That surprised me. The branch was only a foot long itself. Repotted one of the Avocado's into a Hydro-Bucket. I've moved three of the five Hydro-Stations outside. There's four Tangerine trees, five Strawberries in Hydro-Pods in Hydro-Buckets. Two Primroses in Hydro-Pots, two each Romanine and Head Lettace. It's now 96 seedling to be repotted into the Hydro-System. I have enough different pods for all of them (I was busy this very short winter). The Barbados nuts (four-three year old plants-13 one year old cuttings)that's more than 16 by their self. The Coral trees have been in their Hydro-Buckets for two years now. Their producing some very beautiful seed pods. The Budda Bellies have some very large flower displays and already produced several seed pods over the winter. Infact they produced seeds several times all winter. But the plants that have just run away are the Ponytail palms. There's eight of them. The largest one in a Hydro-Bucket has what I can only call beautiful roots hanging from it. The "growth chamber" effect has allowed me to put off watering all of these for at least a month during the winter for at least a month and more for most. Oh, wait I didn't mention the China dolls. There's four small one's and one large which I already posted pictures of. The root system on the largest is second to the Ponytails but the top part is showing node branching. I have until October imagine the sight that will be then.
There was a question about secondary nutrients being stored in plants. Well yes if your talking about vegetables yes the nutrients are locked in the plant but because I work with muti-year plants things are different. I have to figure in what happens to those nutrients when the plants go thru their dormant stage when leaves and roots die off. Those nutrients are stored in those roots and leaves that die off. In nature it's stored in the leaves and roots that decay but become bio-material waiting for reuse in the spring. Gives the plants that extra boost.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Well lets brake down your revised list:

Actual
0.......Just repotted these Brugmansia into Hydro-Buckets (no quantity was mentioned, so they cant be counted)
1.......Repotted one of the Avocado's into a Hydro-Bucket
0.......I've moved three of the five Hydro-Stations outside (there is no mention of which they are, thus there is no way to tell if they would only be counted once or twice)
5.......five Strawberries in Hydro-Pods in Hydro-Buckets
0.......There's four Tangerine trees (It isn't clearly stated what system their in)
2.......Two Primroses in Hydro-Pot
0.......two each Romanine and Head Lettace (It isn't clearly stated what system their in)
0.......It's now 96 seedling to be repotted into the Hydro-System (to be potted into hydro just dosen't count)
0.......The Barbados nuts, four-three year old plants-13 one year old cuttings (no mention of what type system their in)
0.......The Coral trees have been in their Hydro-Buckets for two years now (there is no quantity to count)
0.......The Budda Bellies have some very large flower displays and already produced several seed pods over the winter. (no mention of what type system their in, or even quantity to count)
1.......There's eight of them. The largest one in a Hydro-Bucket has what I can only call beautiful roots hanging from it.
0.......Oh, wait I didn't mention the China dolls. There's four small one's and one large which I already posted pictures of. (no mention of what type system their in).
Total.............................9

That isn't more than 16 where I learned to do math. Just because you mention a plant dosen't make it hydroponically grown (even in your nutrient deprived system you call hydroponics). You had more soil-less plants to count in your original list of 14. Bottom line georgeiii, you can make as many new lists as you want, but one look at the pictures you post on photobucket, and it's clear that 90%+ of the plants you have growing are not hydroponically grown. You seem to get such a thrill from taking a soil grown plant, then washing the soil off and placing it into a bucket water culture system, then jump for joy just because it didn't die yet.

There was a question about secondary nutrients being stored in plants. Well yes if your talking about vegetables yes the nutrients are locked in the plant but because I work with muti-year plants things are different.

No there wasn't any question about secondary nutrients. There was only your totally bogus statement "The Ca/Mg isn't a problem if you think of it in the long term. The plant storge those over time for the amount it needs to flower.." That's a completely false statement (one year plant, or 50 year plant it's false). Do I really need to re-post the article for you? Furthermore

"Continued crop removal of Ca, Mg, and S requires replentishment just as surely as primary nutrients"

"To demonstrate that this classification is more responsive to soil ability to supply nutrients than plant requirements, it should be noted that plant requirements for Ca, a secondary nutrient element, is greater than for P. Calcium is found as a principle exchangeable cation in most soils and an important soluble cation in the soil solution. Phosphorus, on the other hand, is only slightly soluble in most soils, and many soils (particularly acid soils and alkaline soils) have the potential for causing phosphorus deficiencies."

(quotes taken from: Essential Elements for Plant Growth)

Thus the classification of calcium as a secondary nutrient has nothing to do with the plants need for it, but is based rather on the higher availability and solubility of calcium in most soils. Just to be clear for anyone wondering, the plants needs are always the same weather your growing in soil or hydro. How their gown won't change plant biology. How their grown only changes their environment. Better environment, heather plants.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

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How you keep trying to tie soil requriments to hydro. I'm not even going trying try and repeat what I al;ready explained. Please live in ignorence. Hey tho, It looks good so far for the 2012 season.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

georgeiii
How you keep trying to tie soil requriments to hydro. I'm not even going trying try and repeat what I al;ready explained.
Then why do you keep repeating the same untrue/bogus and unsubstantiated claims???

Please live in ignorence
What would be ignorant is to simply believe the unsubstantiated claims that some yahoo keeps repeating in some forum, and demanding people believe them without anything reputable to back up the bogus and unsubstantiated claims, even though every reputable source says otherwise. Pictures of plants in pots is not proof that the plants you grow (or any plants) somehow magically defy everything known about how plants actually do grow.

Plant biology has been researched by many, many, many respected experts in their fields. But you say don't believe them, just believe you because you know everything, and all the research that's been done by EXPERTS in the past 100 years or so is wrong. What would be ignorant is to just believe some yahoo in some forum that every bit of research done is wrong because he says so. THAT WOULD BE BEING IGNORANT.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

"somehow magically defy everything known about how plants actually do grow"

That about says it all right there. Plants need nutrition to produce fruits and veggies, try growing Tomatoes.....


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Haa,hahaha awe guys please. Nobodies saying previous science is wrong. Not even implied. I'm saying I have a different way. No diffeent than the auto was to the horse and buggy. What I claim is listed right at the top of this thread. That site Photobucket/ChristianWarlock is twenty percent higher than the last time I checked.People ask yourself if the GardenWeb had any notion I was providing false information they'd shut me down rather that have a few t-baggers whine about what they can't understand or profiet from. Science isn't wrong it's just moved forward.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Nobodies saying previous science is wrong. Not even implied. I'm saying I have a different way. No diffeent than the auto was to the horse and buggy.
You not only imply it, you repeatedly post that any research done by REAL EXPERTS is wrong, and simply because you you don't agree. But yet you still haven't ever been able to post one shred of creditable evidence in well over two years to support any of the bogus/unsubstantiated claims you make. The reason you cant find anything creditable to support your bogus claims is because there isn't any. Anything published by "REAL EXPERTS" say otherwise.

If you think we are all living in the world of the horse and buggy, and you are the only one with an auto. Well that's exactly the fantasy world you live in. If you believe you can re-wright everything known about plant science by yourself, good luck with that. In order to do so, you'll need to prove your BOGUS CLAIMS to the scientific community first. But trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the scientific community wont be nearly as easy as trying to fool a bunch of new growers in some forum with worthless photobucket pictures that don't PROVE squat. Good luck trying to feed your BS to "REAL EXPERTS" that know their fields.

P.S.
And please, a different way! Not even close, people have been haphazardly putting nutrients on roots for hundreds of years. Just because you choose to do it on plants in a typical DWC type system, dosen't make it a different way. There is nothing new, or different in what you do.

What I claim is listed right at the top of this thread
You make many bogus claims, and make them in many threads. The claims you make in the first post of "THIS" thread are all basically generic and can be said about any DWC system, except for one huge bogus claim "Doesn't need pH reading each plant sets it's own pH level. You have never supplied anything to support this bogus claim (just your say so), even though everything published by EXPERTS say otherwise. That's just one example of your BS (and from just one post in this thread).

People ask yourself if the GardenWeb had any notion I was providing false information they'd shut me down
Really!!! That's such a laugh, as well as just another example of your bogus claims. But since you can't find anything to support your bogus claims, I guess the last straw for you is to just try and suggest their valid, simply because your allowed free speech. The simple right to free speech dosen't equal validity of the statements/words said (to people living in reality anyway).

Do you ever leave your fantasy world? The garden web forum dosen't even care when sellers post their SPAM. In what world do you live in that you think any garden web administrator is going to bother reading your posts (or anybody's for that mater), then spend one second researching the validity of anything you or anybody says??? Again, the right to free speech dosen't equal validity.

Science isn't wrong it's just moved forward
The only problem with that statement is there isn't anything published to support the science you make up in your head. Science is always moving forward, but your science is only found in science fiction books or movies. And the since community dosen't rely on using science fiction books and movies for their research. They know how to tell the difference between reality and fiction, and they don't publish fiction and try and pass it off as reality like you do.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

All that bah,bah,bah just to say nothing. So I guess you won't be happy to hear how well everything's going. Both apple tree are doing well both with leaf and flower. I put a Seedless grape and a flowering bush who's name escapes me. One is already in the system and the two others are waiting till I get back. The Coral Trees recovered nicely and are flowering. I was looking at the lettace and noticing the tips are missg on many of them. Birds, just birds coming in for a snack. The other thing is the Strawberry tower keeps getting knocked over by the wind. I'm going to switch to Corn Row so it won't happen again. I have Columbian Popcorn and Withe corn growing now too. Those I'm going to put in Hydro-Buckets. Lost one of the Cashews to the cold and the Rose cuttings are doing well. Oh, and I have two Granny Smith apple seedlings growing in the system now.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

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The newest picture of the China Doll root system. I have several more of these I want to pot up to 5lb inserts. The grape plant had me worried the most but I can see a tupor pressue difference so I know it's all right.
The Ponytail palm, the one bursting out it's insert? I guess it should be repotted into a gallon insert for the summer. The fruit trees I transplanted are leafing up well. I posted more pictures of other things I have growing with this Sustainable Hydroponic system.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics 1

I forgot to mention the Granny smith apple seedlings I started from seed are doing nicely outside in their hydro-Pods.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Yeah, the grape likes the system. Noticed the leaves were all standing up. The Japanese snowball is still just twigs. The Brugmansia's I cut off the large plants now need repotting. This is a beautifull plant and the flowers are 18" long and about the with of my hand. Didn't mention the "First Prize"rose is showing growth. The rose cuttings are doing well too I should get some pictures posted soon.

Photobucket


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Photobucket

I have several Avocoado growing right now. Took one outside and the weather beat it up rather badly. It's recovering now. Their easy to start but winter is where the trouble comes for most people.
Something I noticed this year is the sun bured leaves. But only in the media containers. The Hydroponic ones all are alright. I do mean direct sun for 7-8 hours a day. Also started a squad of Meyer Lemons with out air circulation. Their growing better than the media ones I have outside. Plus a friend that I did landscape work for called me to say that a Hybrid yellow tea rose I planted for her had been broken. That branch turned out to be 8' long and three wide. So I just cut it into little pieces, kept a few. I started taking picture because I wanted to see how long before it recovered. Funny thing they haven't wilted yet. So I'm taking pictures of Peacock geraiumn hardwood cuttings that did wilt. See how long it takes them to recover.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics 1

Photobucket

I wanted to post this picture of the Hybrid Tea rose so you can see the improvements over the summer.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

georgeiii, just going to make one comment then I am staying out of your drama.... You keep throwing in your view numbers in photo bucket but just because I went to view the photos does not mean I believe in your theories. So please stop assuming your viewing numbers means you have our support or that they validate your theories.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Haahaa my drama, please. Not only don't I know who views my pictures, the question becomes why should I care? Anyone who doesn't want to, doesn't have to. This is a free and open forum. As for validating my "theories" or your support why would I need you for that? The plants do that. I do this because I like to grow plants. All kinds of plants. Let me repeat that " I like to grow plants". When I leave here that's where I'm going, back to grow some more. So please anytime you see my name don't bother to sign on. It's that easy..


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

georgeiii
You don't know SQUAT georgeiii , and you never did or will (that's totally obvious). The reason you care so much is because it makes you feel good to pat yourself on the back and think you have a fallowing (the god syndrome). It's nothing more than an EGO trip. You make up BS in your head, then pat yourself on the back for it. When the truth/facts don't fit, you try and sidetrack the point in hopes nobody will notice. Your doing nothing but just fooling yourself, and perhaps a few gullible new growers that may pat you on the back because they don't know better yet. But your living in complete and total denial of reality, and are simply living in your own fantasy world where you think you rule as god. Why should you care, you shouldn't. Why do you care so very much, EGO.


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validating your 'theories'

Just needed to reply again because I missed another point.

As for validating my "theories" or your support why would I need you for that? The plants do that.

In what world does a photo provide proof of SQUAT? First point Photoshop does wonders. Second there is no verifiable documentation of anything you post. In your own words you just use any fertilizer you have on the shelf. What kind of scientific researcher is that? Nothing that any self respecting university would ever admit to when conducting research. Fact is you don't fallow any guidelines in terms of research, but make all kinds of unverifiable and bogus claims instead.

Dates on your pictures don't mean SQUAT to anyone but you. Besides the fact they can easily be altered with software, dates don't prove what you do or don't do for your plants in any way shape or form. Not to mention that in reality they don't even prove their your plants in the first place, much less prove SQUAT of anything else. But your history has proven time and time again that you cant be trusted for anything. There's a reason you never post links to anything that could validate your bogus theories, that's because you cant find any thing to do that from a reputable source.

This is exactly how you try and sidetrack the points in hopes nobody will notice. If there was a shred of verifiable proof form any reputable source anywhere to validate any of your bogus theories, you would be happy to post it. But it dosen't exist, so you try to sidetrack people with the only thing you have. Pictures that don't PROVE anything to anybody but you. It's my intention to make sure that people know just how you try and sidetrack the truth.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Haaa still doing your job or jabs, I still like the "" I could easily just Pee on your face and call your face "certified organic" like you think all that's necessary." Poor ironic was just trying to ask a simple question and look what you turned it into. No matter here's more for you to get side tracked over.

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Last year I took several cuttings from a Brugmansia White. They grew quite well and I'm transplanting them to a 5lb insert into a Hydro-Bucket.

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I still have the main two plants that are growing into shrubs. Now they were plaqnted into SWC last year and bloomed rather weakly. This year new arms are appearing all along their stems. The cuttings were all put into Hydro-Pots. There's like twelve. All sutvived. Best thing because they were taken from mature wood they too will flower this year.

This year I'm growing roses and bought a "First Prize" yellow hybrid tea shrub rose. Yes it was in media grown but has taken to the Sustainable system quickly.

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Have a pleasent Earth Day everyone


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

There was a comment about fertilizer. It's true I use anything that left on the shelf. What's strange about that? What's important is the delivery system. If anyone's interested I'll write something up but you really don't need to understand that to work the system.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

georgeiii
There was a comment about fertilizer. It's true I use anything that left on the shelf. What's strange about that? What's important is the delivery system.

There is nothing strange about that at all, in fact millions of people do the very same thing. Your delivery system is only important and new to you. Millions of people have been squirting nutrients directly at the base of the plant as well.

The comment that you cant understand the context of (well really trying to shift the focus from) is that you don't do or have any kind of controls in any of the variables of the plants that you do grow without soil. But yet you make wild and unsubstantiated claims and theories based on it. You never give any sources of verifiable research that backs up any of your bogus theories. You just base all your bogus theories on the haphazard way you grow plants, rather than with any scientific method.

There is nothing wrong, or even new about the haphazard way you grow plants, what is wrong is basing your bogus theories on it.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

I see more of you are ignoring homie rants and trying these methods yourself. Fun isn't it. Their like Lay's potato chips, you can't make just one. As I said in another thread I was at Earth Day and what people were suprised the most about was how easy they were to make on their own and that I was giving these ideas away. The bio-fuel idea both in how to grow it and ease of extracting also opened eyes. As I said no one needed to contact me just try the methods.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Hello, again.
I've been rather busy in the Garden. It's amazing how much stuff a yard can collect.

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The Avocado's tho it took a long time for them to germinate are growing nicely once they did.

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This is another bulb I got from the market. Called Jicama, to me it look like a small Elephant ear. I bought three and five and three came up. They said it might not because of the chemical they use to preserve them.The Moon Glow pear tree while it didn't fruit it flowered. Since it was only put into the system on 4-4-2012 I didn't complain. I found 30 3'x3' wire shelves so I can make use of some of the uneven ground here. The Roses, the Roses are all looking good. I'll add some pictures later. So far everything that I've put into the system works. Next month I'm adding Soybeans.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Just put four Big Boy tomato's in Hydro-Buckets and have five Yellow-Green ones sprouting. I know it's still about two weeks early but the Yellow-Greens should be out about the right time. The Tangerines all have a new flush of growth, same with the Brugmansia's, the rose cuttings. All the roses are growing now. The Himrod grape is growing new leaves. And I'm about to put in corn. One of the plants I haven't mentioned is the Mega Cabbage. Have three in SWC's and one in a Hydro-Bucket. The three in the SWC's are growing better but that might be because of the change in growing enviroment the Hydro-Bucket needed to go thru.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Here's the Big Boy tomato's that are being inserted to the Hydro-Buckets.

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And here's the Hydro-Buckets. It's only been four days and already their growing.

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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

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this is what's making my methods interesting. 50 days before adding just one gallon of water. That even suprised me. This is what making gardening interesting everyday for me.

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If you've been following along you can see more progress with the China Doll.

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Here's one of the plants I had doubt about. The Himrod seedless grape. Now that the weather has warmed it's growing. New shoots from every node. I think next month I'll add a tomato cage.
Another was the Japanese Snowball. It's still bare brown but roots are showing out the insert.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

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I started 16 Yellow popcorn seedlings in Quad Pods.I worked on corn two years ago and the results weren't great

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The problem then was the timing of the fertilizer.

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These are four Big boy tomato's in the system. The one on the far end wasn't getting air so it was stunted for about two weeks. Once it got air it caught up with the others quick. I removed the first flowers last week.

Added seven Coffee plants.

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The two small Lemon trees are puting on their second flush of new growth this year.

The Moonglow pear has started it's growth chamber.

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There's more going,on a host of peppers, four red-yellow tomato's, Sweet corn, melons and such. More pictures at Photobucket-ChristianWarlock.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

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Seems I'm having trouble getting images down loaded. Something I'm having trouble with is I switched fertilizer concentrations with the system. Tomato's, Brugmansia are showing yellow leaves just like they were lacking rather than recieving to much nitrogen. Plus streatching of the stems. I switched back but it's going to be a few days before I can tell everything's back to normal.
Two of the four Avocado plants were chewed off by a squrllel. I'm letting them remain in the Buckets to see if they re-branch


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Check out my addition to sustainable gardening!


I simply placed a tomato plant into some "lava like" round inert media then randomly added some off the shelf soluble fertilizer to the bucket below. I haven't added any water yet (almost two months) only rain water has been added. The bottom of the pot now sits in about an inch of water at the bottom so I don't even have to irrigate it anymore.
I believe I have discovered a new kind of gardening to which only I am the master!
But seriously, I have been negligent of this plant.(that stuff about the water and nutes is true) I'm really surprised its doing as well as it is.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

georgeiii
Something I'm having trouble with is I switched fertilizer concentrations with the system. Tomato's, Brugmansia are showing yellow leaves just like they were lacking rather than recieving to much nitrogen.

What happened to your foolproof system? You constantly claimed it didn't matter what you you fertilized with, or even in what concentrations (just a squirt). After all, you never gave any scientific parameters, you just mixed whatever you had on the shelf (and say nothing else was needed), and you just mixed them in what ever way you felt like doing that day (not having any parameters to compare anything to as your scientific analysis), then claim that the plants will magically do the rest. What happened to the foolproof theory/s? What happened to your peeing on a vitamin to make your own cheep nutrient solution, are you still working with NASA on that one?

Grizz,
Perhaps you may be able to give some real information/data on the parameters in your (georgeiii) system/s (unlike georgeiii). Simply stating that it dosen't matter what you do, or how you do it will produce great plants isn't good enough for me. There needs to be real data backing up the claims if their to be taken seriously. Georgeiii has yet to be able to back up any of his claims with any reliable data. Perhaps if you are giving his system/s a try, you can be an objective party. Even give the real data/parameters that you experience.

Personally, I'm only interested in the real scientific explanations/experiments. If it can be backed up scientifically, I'm all ears. Claims that are just demand to beveled as true scientific data without question, sit on a tack and call it macaroni.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Actually, HH, I was being sarcastic. It's only my laziness that has kept me from properly feeding the plant. And only the plant'a desire to live that has kept it alive.
I would actually like to give georgeii's method a try and simply record the supplied nutrients and water (as needed), but figure I'll just stick with something that works.
Why re-invent the wheel right?


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

i am not sure that sticking twigs in buckets and then not maintaining them qualifies as hydroponics... and if it does then the ability to have something not die doesnt make it a breakthrough. Those plants look like death... if i had any of those it would get yanked out of the system and replaced by a plant that will actually produce not barely survive.
and as far as an earlier post about sticking a tree in the ground and it will change the PH to suit its needs... BS try growing a blueberry tree in NE FL without ammending the soil a TON... you will have some dead sticks in a very short time! and if you dont keep ammending that soil, it WILL revert back to the PH of the surrounding area.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Actually fusion, there is some validity to trees adjusting the pH around them. If you go into any pine or oak forest the soil will always be acidic. the leaves the trees drop decompose and increase the acidity of the soil.
Even dropping a single tree in a field of grass will eventually alter the pH of the soil. (eventually being the imperative word) Not overnight by any means and you have to leave the plants dead leaves, branches and such to decompose for it to work, but the soil pH will eventually change more to suit the tree.
Of course it's not some magic juice the tree's roots excrete as georgeiii would imply, though I suppose rotting roots may have the same effect (I'm hypothesizing here)and, if you've seen the massive death in some of georgeiii's "pods" he may be onto something there. I really hadn't put much thought into it until writing this post.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

grizzman,
There has never been a question that plants grown in soil (any soil) environments have a varying pH. But the statement that "plants adjust their own pH" is a completely false statement. When you have a soil environment there are thousands of different microbes, bacteria, acids (like humic/favic), even worms bugs and pests that are continually breaking down the soil compounds (all vary depending on location, conditions, and the actual soil environment). That is what is altering the soil "pH" (as well as nutrient levels) NOT THE PLANTS. Growing in soil and in hydro isn't the same thing. The statement that plants adjust pH is only a figment of gorgiie's imagination, and NOT based in any type of actual reality.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Well nice to see the conversaion going on without me. Homie always makes my point for me. Grizz calls the magic fulids, homie gives them a name. humic/favic Why do you think these plants live year round even in their dormant cycle. Why do you think every spring they rebound. I was spending a little time thinking about a conversion thread about humic/favic. What I learned there gave me such insight on how all those things homie talks about. How they fit into the scheme of things. And how that all takes place inside a plastc bucket. Please foegive things to do but there's more pictures on Photobucket/ChristianWarlock/summer 2012


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

I am still trying to figure out what childhood trauma georgiii has gone through. Something about taking lively plant from the store, malnourishing them, and the chopping them down to twigs and literally drawing out the pain over years.. reminds me of that little girl they found in the 70's whos father had kept her in her room on a potty trainer her whole life... Genie I think it was.

Anyways, Georgiii, I would up your benzodiazapenes or get on some haloperidol. Seriously though, you have delusions of grandeur that remind me of a schizophrenic.

If this is the case and you do have a mental disorder, I don't mean to offend, I am just being a good guy and pointing out the obvious.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Haahaaahah, please guys really, this is your proof what I do is...whine. Your still of some idea that your opinion means something. Get over yourself. This is a free site that seems to pass right over your heads. I like what I do. I show what I do. If your using a better system please show it. Other than that your just scratches on a computer screen and tempory scratches at that.
Oh, by the way, yes the tomato's failed. I even have pictures. But the Yellow corn is showing cobs with nice silk tresses. I got picture of that too. Then there's the Mimosia tree...now there's a twig for you. Wait..wait as of June 15 that grew. Now here it is August can you imagine what it looks like now. Wait I have pictures. Haaaahaha


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Mimosa are pretty much a weed. they grow wild in terrible soil in my neck of the woods. I should hope you would get it to grow.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

True, their a weed here too. But it makes a beautiful potted plant.

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Well how about Yellow Popcorn

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But really you can go to Photobucket/ChristianWarlock and see the many things I'm growing.
So when you really get down to what your objections are let me know.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

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Sorry about the doubles

Just a pitures of the different plants. This Hybrid tea rose I got at Wal-Mart this Spring. That picture is from 8-8-2012.

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This is from 8-16-2012. It stasrted with one rose then two now eight.

The Hass Avocado that had been chewed off at the base. Two months later.

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The coffee seedlings I repotted into Hydro-Pods

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The Himrod seedless grape.

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Food bulbs from the market. They make nice plants too.

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The Japanese Snowball I was ready to throw out.

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Meyers Lemons

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Gets to be a long list. While that's all well and good for tropical and semi-tropical plants . Vegetables are still a problem. Tree aren't a problem either. Seems long term growth is workable. Short term I'm still working on.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Just some pictures to show the progress so far

Hybrid Pink Tea Rose growth in Hydrosystem

I've added several Papaya's to Hydro-Pods and Hydro-Pails for winter growth. The pictures of the Papays are giving me troble. I'll post them later

I got lucky and even got Mango's to sprout from seed. Two have germinated with a third as a no show

Mango seed sprout from seed, Mango seed started in Hydro-Pot


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

For those of you following what I've done with Papayas this is the first year growing it. This picture is a larger seedling I transferred to 2 gallon insert. Mounted in a 5 gallon Hydro-Bucket.

Barerooted Papaya seedling

I have a Hydro-Squads of them growing in Hydro-Pods. Their doing well. Less root loss in the transfer. I mention this because the larger is loseing leaves. Or just dying back. Just a thought. Now I say this because the root loss of the larger is the same as the root lost in the Coral tree and the Barbados nut. Both lost the secondary roots only the Coral tree and the nut had thicker primary roots.

Papaya seedling in Hydro-Bucket

The Mango above is doing good. Six thin leaves in a rosette. Those are going to need the winter to reach some size. Others on that list
Norflok pines
Meyer Lemons's
Sable Palm
More Ponytail palms
Vineing roses
Sago Palm

Problem is...plants. Figuring out all the different light zones they'll survive in. Truth be told I'm going to like having them around. The oxygen level alone.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

A few more things of interest. This is the seed pod of the Coral tree. One of those plants they were looking to use for bio-fuel. problem tho is very few seeds.

Coral Tree seed pod, This is the problem of using Coral tree as a source of bio-fuel.  Too few seeds.

Coral Tree Hydro-Squad

Makes a nice house plant tho.

Mango seedling 9-9-2012

The Mango seedling is comming along.

Forflok Pine in Hydro-Pot 9-9-2012

Norflok Pine

Meyer Lemon seedling 9-9-2012

Meyer lemon. These really picked up during the last part of summer. Or it could be the transferr to a larger Pot.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Well the summer has run. Now I bring everything in. Things like the pear tree might be problem. They need a chill time.
Same with the apple trees. These are plants growing in plain water. The roses won't be a problem. It's something to look forward too. I should display pictures of the root systems. They've really grown since the last picture. They're a few that will go dormant like the Barbados nuts.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Moonglow Pear tree, Now here's a thought.   Since the ground freezes the same should happen here.  I think I'm going to take the chace abnd leave it outside.   Next season I'll cut off the roots.

Here is the root system of the Moonglow pear.

China Doll Root system, This is a plant I've been growing for two years.  Interesting thing is  it make pruneing the root easy.

Lemon Tree, This is the root system in September 2012


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Now that the weather is changing I'm giving thought to the next "idea" That's to grow plants hydroponicly outside. Thought is that it should work on plants that pass thru the temp drop anyway. I'm going to try it on various trees. Now I'm not talking about tropical trees, I live in new called zone 7. I have the Moonglow pear and 14 others I'll try it with.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

The thing is you are growing plants, it's working, and you think that since it's "working" that it's a good practice.
Applying that logic is an erroneous concept. I'd bet if you compared your growth to a hydroponics system maintained like what others consider "correct" then your method would pale in comparison. I've kept a reef tank for a couple years with coral, fish, and other invertebrates. I might not be a hydroponics guru but I do see when things do not equate.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Sorry, that's rather cicular logic. Your on the web, do the comparison yourself. This sounds like "homie". I'm looking for any comparison your willing to make. The pictures are here. You can look on Photobucket/Christian Warlock for the pictures over time as well. But just coming on here going blah, blah, blah doesen't mean anything. Explain yourself. Hydroponics isn't dogma it's science.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

I am interested in what your goals are with your systems georgiii. Can you elaborate, please?


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

I believe we have lost contact with nature in the urban area's. We can't go back because of how quickly that knowlage was "forgotten". Combine that with larger and larger groups of pepole are going to have to start growing food. The land has been so abused by corprate farming that's it's exgushed. Look at our rate of natural disters and the aftermath for people to survive. This method will allow people to grow there way out of unemployment. This is a low tech method with a low learning curve and can be done on and industral scale or personel gardens. It can be done on any surface or up walls. You can grow your own fruits and nut, herbs and several vegetables so far. We need to give the earth a time to rest and heal. I can go on but you get the driff. Besides it gives you a great garden.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

I haven't seen you grow enough food from these systems to
feed even 1 person. If the goal here is to be able to grow
vegetables cheaply and to be able to survive with the produce,
then is it not also important that the time put into making
the systems and maintaining them not go to waste?

How are you going to improve these systems, which seem like
they do work albeit not enough for growing food, so that
you can accomplish your goal?

-Mike


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

So you haven't been to Photobucket\ChristianWarlock. While it's true I've only grown, pumpkins % from one 5 gallon bucket, pictures are in The ChristianWarlock album. Same with corn grown in Nanny Pods. Those pictures are in the same album. Okra, tobbacco, peppers, lettace, basils I mean there's quite a list. Yes there are several I haven't been suscussful with but I'm still working on them. The Avocado,s, Mango's, citrus are still young yet. I photograph everyting good and bad. But there's only a few. But the many that do from palms, pears, roses and grapes. There are pictures of how there doing. Even the bio-fuel plants are shown on that site.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

They are growing, I will give you that george. But what I
am saying is that if these systems are hopefully going to
be able to produce enough food to sustain a family, then you
would either need to make the systems grow more food from each
pod/bucket OR you would need hundreds of the systems you have
now.

So it sounds to me like there is a point where you will have
to assume that in order to grow enough food for sustainability
you will need to add more fertilizer to the plants.

Or do you have another idea to get the plants to produce
more food/fuel?


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Your looking at this in the wrong way. This is a plug and place system. Each container is seperate from the others and can be lined up acording to your effort. There's no fertilizer issues to deal with. If something happens to one plant you just pull it and replace with another. That's how the system varies from hydroponics. And I do have a hundred of them.

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That's what I mean by plug and play as the plant grows you just move it to a larger container in the line. Those two picture are one of the Avocado I grew from seed in a Nanny Pod to a Hydro-Pot to a Hydro-Bucket. That's where it will stay.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

That is a nice looking avocado.

Your plug and place systems can make a nice garden for
looks, but it will never be able to produce enough food
to feed people efficiently enough to be worth it unless you
increase fertilizer in the system.

You need to have food everyday. Your system may make some
food for eating one day a month if you used 20+ pods or
whatever you call them but it isn't going to work without
more fertilizer.

For what its worth you have a nice idea of art and such and
I think that is what your system is really there for. It
represents nature and the damages humans have done to
Earth. Thats cool. But, I think that it is deceptively optimistic
to think that these will be able to produce food for a
family without more fertilizer.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

hey ethno,
You are beating a dead horse with reason on this thread.
You'd be better off to spend your time building one yourself and then seeing what kind of potential it has with recorded nutrient amounts.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

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Something we're always forgetting in the modern world. Plants make their own food.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Yeah, you're right. Once a moron, always a moron.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Georgeiii,
the law of conservation dictates that plants need more input than they output. if a plants only source of material is what dies off the plant, then it would never grow because there would be no plant to die off in the first place.(consider this philosophy applied to humans. I can grow larger by eating my own body. Kind of sounds ridiculous in that sense) That is why plants consume materials already present in the Earth to build plant parts from. I am not saying they don't reuse what has died off. Just that what has died off is not enough to make the plant flourish. Maybe, for a spell, feeding off the decaying parts may maintain the plant but it will not get larger feeding on its dead parts wholly. That is also why you have to add a "squirt of fertilizer" every few days to get the plants to grow at all. Again, I am not saying your idea doesn't work. Just that if your applied a little scientific research to what you're doing, you might find there are ways to improve your system.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

That's true grizz, that why I add a squrit of fertilizer every three days. It's because it's not getting the nutrients that the leaves, bark, branches, insects would bring to the plant. That's why I come on here to try and explain myself better. Now I'm going to be forced to apply written, input amounts, record keeping, out come and goals methods to my madess.

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I'll let you know how that goes


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Sorry, my last post was pretty rude.

Looking forward to learning the methods of your madness George.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Now grizz I do have a problem with the conservation thing. See I think that due to the natural cycle of things more is created from the waste of the plants. The waste given off from the roots is recycled by bacteria to produce more "fertilizer" for the plant. I have several plants that have been growing for years without fertilizer at all. just what the plants give off themselves. Ture it's not a board list of plants mostly peppers. Some are three years old. No water movement, no air.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

growing and living do not always have reciprocal meanings.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

  • Posted by nil13 z21 Mt. Washington L (My Page) on
    Wed, Dec 12, 12 at 11:13

try replacing the water in those pepper plant containers with distilled water to control for nutrients in the tap water and see what happens.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

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This is a struggle between anaerobic and aerobic bactria in the fertilizer. I show this because why the plant grow slowly when not attendent to. Because of using plastic causes the water to ciculate without outside force. And your right grizz there is a difference but if something happens the plants don't die because of it. Infact the roots that die off are eaten by the anaerobic bacteria and changed to nutrients for the plants new roots that are produced. Problem with using distilled water is that the air would still bring bacteria into the system.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

  • Posted by nil13 z21 Mt. Washington L (My Page) on
    Thu, Dec 13, 12 at 18:04

there will be bacteria regardless of water source, but by using distilled water you know that the only nutrients are coming from those decomposition processes.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Thing is there's no nutrient in the water. All nutruient is in the insert. There's really to little when applied to get into the water.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

so you believe the bacteria create matter after consuming dead plants material?


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Georgeiii, do you think water from the tap has nutrients in it?

Because it does!

Even municipal water has nutrients in it. Small amounts, but enough that it must still be considered in your setup where you're adding small amounts of nutrients.

It is all relative.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Been away awhile but grizz why go simple on me. It doesn't create matter, it changes it. Makes those things, amnino acids and such. That's what composting does. Grizz you know better. I expect better from you.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Well I just had to be sure you understand that.
You see those bacteria require some amount of matter, ever so infintismal, to live, reproduce, and otherwise flourish. so there will always be a net loss of matter when bacteria are feeding on dead plant matter. That was my point. you can not have a closed system with plants.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Grizz you're too nice.

Georgeiii, yes bacteria do convert dead plant matter back into usable nutrients. HOWEVER. It is not a 100% conversion rate, they don't take all nitrogen and convert it back. You do lose nutrients to the imperfections of the bacteria.

Furthermore, for bacteria to grow and multiply, they use nutrients.

Lets continue. Dead roots do amount to SOME nutrients. MOST of the nitrogen, carbon, sugars, chlorophyll, etc. are in the leaves/stems of the plant! Unless you're placing the dead leaves into the reservoir then your system is consuming 1000X how much the bacteria fix and regenerate from dead roots.

Your idea is flawed. Tap water is contributing the main source of nutrients, guaranteed. Well, your "squirt" is actually.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

This is what reminds me of homie. He always answered his own questions. Your thinking this all wrong. The dead matter is composted. That's part of the cycle. But we're talking about the live roots not the dead one. Don't forget the dead bodies of the bacteria are food for others. The living ones. This is a compost pile the plants are sitting in. It just happens to be a water based one. The plant produces waste for others to live on. I have two ways of providing added food for the bacteria by adding urine or compost tea. Either one has enough food in just one cc for trillions of new bacteria and it gets that squrit every three days. That's what replaces the nutrients it would get from the leaves and stems.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Finally getting a chance to read the full thread and.....wow! Well done.

Love the photos, love the info, love the peer reviews and questions.

Keep it up!! It is helping to further flatten my learning curve!

Here is a link that might be useful: My Indoor Gardening Adventure


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Here is information you should know big G:

"Many nitrogen-fixing organisms exist only in anaerobic conditions, respiring to draw down oxygen levels, or binding the oxygen with a protein such as leghemoglobin.[1]"

You use air pumps from what I have seen. How is your aerobic, oxygenated water producing so much anaerobic bacteria? It probably isn't, quite frankly.

Another flaw to realize about your logic is that you're feeding your plants ready-to-use nutrients. Bacteria fix nutrients from N2 gas, ammonia, and nitrite. Your nitrogen in fertilizer is already nitrate, which means that it is of no use for the bacteria. They cannot even use that form of nitrogen.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

You know there�s a picture above anaerobic baterica showing what your talking about but here�s where the difference comes in between regular hydroponics and sustainable hydroponics. With regular hydroponics bacteria plays very little part in the system. While with sustainable hydroponics it�s part of the relationship with plants. Both are feeding each other. Let me use the word fauna in stead of bacteria. Just because of the different types involved. Think of the fauna as grazers that are moving thru the fields (water) eating and gathering nutrients on and in their bodies. They then thru osmosis enter the root cells and drop off their nutrients. The plant thru sap as a waste product leaves sugars the fauna likes. Everything wins. That�s how I get such great root systems.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Hello Georgeii. I like all of the pictures in this thread. I would like to ask if you meant to use the word osmosis? I am not sure that it is scientifically correct. But just wondering!


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

NonCirc,
you are correct. The roots do not allow bacteria to enter the plants. Only water and nutrients at the molecular level.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Yeah, I really don't think osmosis brings bacteria into roots Georgeiii. For two reasons: the plants roots will not allow something as large as bacteria to enter, and osmotic pressure sucks (meaning that bacteria would create osmotic pressure and suck things out of the roots, not visa-versa. bacteria themselves don't create osmotic pressure that I know of anyways)

The only reason your plants grow, I think, is still because of small amounts of nutrients in the tap water and that squirt of fertilizer you give them. I have no reason to believe in that in your system it is the bacteria that are providing necessary nutrients to the plants. I would bet that the amount they provide to the plants is not even significant. How can you prove that the bacteria are making your system work? What evidence do you have other than assumptions based on stuff you have read? Those assumptions are merely hypothesis without some type of proof. Because the naked eye cannot distinguish between the type of bacteria in your buckets and how much food they're creating. Ah-hah, you need a microscope or take a bucket of your water from one of your "pods" or whatnot to a local university and ask them to test it.... then I may believe you.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Sorry I misstated and meant that the bacteria enters the slime coating produced by the roots and desposit their coatings clinging to their bodies their waste products. Hey this is new and yes I use a microscope. Stuff I read?? Where is anybody else doing this? I have to go on experience and questions asked here. And enthno I don't ask anybody to believe me. That's funny even to think. But I can see if bacteria numbers are growing or declining. And yes when I use tap water it's because I can tell by the leaves there's a need for certain micronutrients, calcium, iron , copper, etc. If not I use plain rain water. For the number of plants I'm growing tap water can get expensive. As for it being a hypothesis..of course it a hypothesis. Most of these are five gallon buckets. And yes you can tell the the type of bacteria and what food their producing. Composting remember. Their called PMT's forgive if I don't spell out their names cause I'm not sure. I learned them this summer when I had trouble growing tomato's.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

Wow! People are really interested in growing their own bio-fuel with Sustainable hydroponics. It's been up there awhile on Photobucket.
Moonglow Pear in Sustainable Hydroponic System, This is the first year I'm trying to grow plants in the Sustainable Hydroponic System

While it hasn't snowed that much it been freezeing for a number of days. This is really just an experiment. I'd hate to lose the tree but having this work out would help so many people who don't have regular space.


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RE: The Dark Garden: Sustainable Hydroponics

I have eleven trees in the Out door Sustainable hydroponic system. I'm hoping their surviving but they look all right to me. There are several days where they froze in fact a whole week at one time. The water in the smaller systems froze but a little daylight and I can hear them bubbling. I should take pictures of the roots for records. You can see the big difference in the smaller hair roots. This is where the composting idea comes from if they survive. Looks too like I'll have to start a new thread soon. This is a "hypothesis" if it works yea for gardening


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