What I'm looking for are holes in my explaination. Photo's are in photobucket/ChristianWarlock.

MG fertilizer, in hydroponics? Urea N needs bacteria to break it down. Exmpl;//When using a fast draining medium that cant support microbe life, you need added compost tea that will help convert the urea N. Just a hint.

This whole time I heard urea needs living organisms to turn it to ammonium N but thats not the case. I read with in a few hours of water contact urea is converted to ammonium. Still not 100% sure on this subject.

A title is very important in any writing, whether it be a scientific article or a simple picture book. The title tells the reader what the paper is about in a few words or short sentence. Try to stick on topic about sustainable hydroponics instead of including information not relevant to sustainability.

You should include information about how the system excludes the use of electricity in any way, which is very important in sustainability. You do say that no pumps are needed, but try to be more specific.

Sometimes nutrients could leach into the water in the reservoir (you probably disagree but thats ok), so it would be better for you make a minimalistic statement and say that there is no nutrient waste from these systems.

First off, this system WILL NOT GROW FOOD.

That does not sound sustainable.

Maybe it is made from recycled material but that material means your relying on man to make the garden, in turn is not sustainable. You need hydroponic fertilizer that is all nitrate N no urea N.

Breeding your own fish and utilizing aquaponics is sustainable.

I grow in potting mix's as I dont have the time to be messing with ph ect.... If you wanted to produce fruits, veggies this system would never work. To me growing things to look at is more of a hobby then trying to produce food.

I could see a huge tomato bush 5 feet high growing in a 5 gal bucket watered with fertilizer daily in a heavy grow potting mix.

I cant see a huge 5' tomato plant growing out of a dwc 5 gal bucket with out an entire trellis system (pvc, ropes, ect..), or else the bucket lid will break and the plant will fall.

I know hydro outpreforms soil but thats if you do it right, this is why I stick with soilless potting mix's.

I must say DWC is an easy hydroponics system so you are in the right direction. Not sure if changing water is for me, and cleaning and dumping cleaners to stop alea and other growth worrying about water temp,ec,ph,pmm. I think I will carry mix's, repot plants and water and watch grow. I am not saying one is better but if your a beginner like me you will NOT use hydroponics.

I uderstand they make systems with one mother bucket that the way to go.

When it comes to a container I can place a tomatoe cage and call it a day with a dwc bucket you need external trellising. I am just a gardener so maybe I am off subject but, theres a reason every back yard has potted plants, not a bunch of DWC buckets.

As well as the ability to customize any hydroponic system/s to grow anywhere (even rooftops, vertical walls, boats, balcony rails, etc.), anywhere there's space not being used (inside or out). Along with higher yields per plant, growing hydroponically also allows for closer plant density, as well as being able to take advantage of vertical space. The difference in having a 200 square foot soil garden, and a 200 square foot hydroponic garden, you can grow as much as 6 times as many plants or more in the same amount of space if designed well, and you take advantage of vertical space using multiple levels.

So ya, there is a reason you don't see many backyards with hydroponic systems. But it's not because it's hard or dosen't work. Simply that as the saying goes you cant teach old dogs new tricks (no offense to anybody). It's just much easier to teach the new generation (the kids) than it is to teach the old generation (adults stuck in their old ways). Once the kids grow up and become adults themselves, you'll see a huge increase in hydroponic systems in peoples backyards growing produce to feed their families.

I never thought of this, you changed the way I look at gardening georgeiii, you really did!

To think of what we can't see with our eye is just amazing.

@mastergardener
a bunch of DWC systems in your backyard would become labor intensive so you're much more likely to see systems that use a central rez and recirculate to it. Here's my NFT/EnF from a few years ago:



That was, I believe, 18 plants in a 4 X 2 area.
As for your comment about support for tomatoes, that same tomato cage you use would work just as well with a DWC system. only difference is you'd need to attach it (aka duct tape it) to the bucket. well except you hydro toms would probably be bigger plants so need a larger cage.
But as HH pointed out, its the old timers who won't commit to the change.

That's a Mimosa tree growing in the larger 5lb insert.

A Tangerine tree in a 5lb insert. Problem is tho I don't have a greenhouse but large windows. I do have a China Doll that's grown 18" in a month. That there too. Now the question is does my explanation make sense to you.

This is why you can leave plants adjust their own ph.

"This is why you can leave plants adjust their own ph.

Why, because you posted a picture of some RELATIVELY clean water? Why, because you posted a picture of some roots that don't look to be anywhere near the 2 months old you say they are? Why, because anyone can post a picture (even ones they didn't take or know anything about) then make any claim they want about them? Again you just post pictures that don't mean squat, give no real data on the testing methods used to come to your conclusions (so it can be evaluated by others), give no reputable sources that would support the untrue claims of plants extruding their own pH adjusters. All you post as your proof is pictures that can easily be doctored, misrepresented, and/or may not even be taken by you. Even if they were your pictures, there isn't a shred of evidence that would even come close to truly supporting your claims.

I have plenty of pictures with dates (Though I hate them so I disabled that feature). But, I can alter them if I wanted to (even after the picture was taken if I wanted to). But how can a date in a picture provide proof of untrue claims that need real documentation (not dates) to prove? Fact is georgeiii, if there was any truth to your claims, I would be interested. But after years the same runaround avoiding providing anything tangible to support them, I have come to the simple conclusion that it's nothing more than a bad joke. A bad joke you keep telling over and over.

Even though you have the right (freedom of speech) to keep telling your jokes, I have the same right (freedom of speech) to show how bad they are. Every time you tell the same bad joke, I'll blow the punchline for you.

The stat list from the GardenWeb shows others are following. Are you going to email them on the side to explain yourself further. Haaaaa poor child. Maybe offer to sell them a Quad Pod instead.

Not really sure what your thinking is there, but I have never SPAMMED any user of any forum. Much less this one. If you do, that's your business (and wouldn't really surprise me). But I live in a different world than you do, and I believe in ethics.

If your stupid comment is relating to a request by grizzman that I contact him personally to discus a disagreement. Go ahead and ask him yourself, I have yet to find the time to bother. I have talked to him through e-mail's before, but the last contact was about a year ago, and even then only a couple of e-mails. Fact is the forum is not a popularity contest to me, and I'm not looking for alias. Thus I don't concern myself with things like who likes me or not.

People I agree with are people I agree with, and people I don't agree with I don't agree with. Knowing how to disagree with someone, yet still hold a conversation with them, as well as still be civil with them at the same time is apparently a lost art to some (especially you georgeiii).

I look at the nft with jalapeno plants and I want to try it this season. Any tips? Anyone can help too.

I need tip on how to keep water temps down in the nft. Do I need a chiller if growing on my deck.

I may not get around to trying it either but it is interesting. I am increasing my garden to the max this year :) 30+ soilless container grown peppers, not to mention the others in ground.

Just wanted to post a few pictures. The Ca/Mg isn't a problem if you think of it in the long term. The plant storge those over time for the amount it needs to flower. It's you who decides when that is. Just stop giving it food. I'm growing several kinds of peppers this year. You can see pictures on that web sight for many different kinds grown in different containers. I can see by my stat number that more of you are getting interested in my methods. Thank you. My only interest is getting more and more people able to grow their own food and plant needs. While doing no harm to the Earth.

You should make compost tea and use it in the dwc and then you really would be not having to get anything.

The second set of pictures dosen't show much of anything again. The first picture just shows some 1 inch tall or so seedlings. The lighting might be a factor, but the leaves look to be quite yellow in color. Beyond that I also clearly see brown blotching in most of them. The other picture, well heck getting sprouts isn't much of an accomplishment.

The third set of pictures only shows that the plant in the first picture is clearly showing signs of chlorosis and not getting proper nutrition. Including brown and dead edges on many of the leaves. The second picture still dosen't show anything but a stick with some very small sprouting leaves. I'm not impressed by seeing a bucket with tubes going in and out of it either, I know how all 6 types of hydroponic systems work.

The last picture shows nothing more than some small sprouts. The one pot in the front shows some white roots coming out the bottom. That is nothing more than I would expect to see from plants that small. Even without using nutrients or checking pH, I rarely check pH for plants that small, as well as only use a fraction of the nutrients I would otherwise. I'm simply not impressed by plants that clearly show problems, and/or seedling with white roots. But I'm sure many would be. I probably would have before I began growing hydroponically myself.

"The Ca/Mg isn't a problem if you think of it in the long term. The plant storge those over time for the amount it needs to flower.".

This is untrue, calcium is immobile in plant tissue. They are unable to store it, then use it later in other plant tissue as needed. Once it is stored, it's stuck where it was stored/used. Here is more info on plants and calcium:

Calcium: A Transportation Problem and was written by Dr. Lynette Morgan who is a respected hydroponics researcher (not just some guy/wannabee in some forum who makes up his own reality).

You can find her profile easily at the growingedge-dot-com by searching "by Dr. Lynette Morgan" (including the quotations). Or copying and pasting:

http://www.growingedge-dot-com/staff/profiles/morgan.html

But replacing the (-dot-) with a real dot (.).

If you think your just not going to feed your tomato plant and a Tomato is just going to pop out of no where, I can tell you that will not be the case. To produce fruit you need a better nutritional program.

I don't know where other than homies mind I said any thing different than I've been saying
I know, you continue to repeat the same untrue statements that aren't based in any form of reality over and over, as if by simply doing do they will somehow magically come true.

Calium is a secondary nutrient so it's stored till the plant needs it.
This is an absolutely untrue statement, and I proved it in my earlier post. You may want to expand your universe georgeiii, thus have a look at what a REAL EXPERT has to say.

So now can the adults have a conversation.
Absolutely, as soon as you quit telling the same old magical bedtime story's. The adults aren't interested in fiction, their only interested it non-fiction. That's something you don't have a clue about, so here's the definition:

(Non-fiction (or nonfiction)
is the form of any narrative, account, or other communicative work whose assertions and descriptions are understood to be "FACT".

I'm increasing the times I fertilze and the size of the insert. Those two are the only changes I think I'll need.
Good for you, their your plants, do with them as you wish.

As for the lighting on my pictures and knowing the difference between insect damage and chlorosis get real.
I'm very real!!! If your pictures are trying to show insect damage or anything else, well you simply need help with the camera. Your photography skills are lacking. Fact is just about every picture you post has what you call insect damage, and you try pass them off as proof of healthy plants, and your bogus claims.

Fact is one of the best defenses agents insect damage (and/or any disease) is growing a healthy plant. The only plants you grow that are relatively healthy are grown in soil, or just transplanted into a hydro system from soil. At the same time you constantly profess you have come up with the greatest plant growing system in the world. As well as somehow have been able to change the biological functions of plants to suit your needs. Really, you think people are that stupid???

See there you go with other peoples names
Why haven't you ever once given any references to support your statements? It's simple, they don't exist!!!

Anybody who wants to contest what I say can come on here
Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing every time you post untrue/unsubstantiated claims. I'm contesting them!!!! Thank you for the invite to continue doing so (not that I need a invitation).

Damn homie if you have experts let them come here. Everybodies got a name. The more you spam the sadder you look homie
I've been asking you to produce at least one shared of evidence to support your bogus claims for two years now. You don't have one single bit of evidence to support your bogus claims (much less an EXPERT). I just posted an article, written by a well renowned EXPERT (I even gave her bio for proof of that). georgeiii you've got nothing, nothing more than bogus claims that have no truth to them, and your fantasies.

"Calcium is deposited in plants cell walls during their formation"
See you didn't even bother to read your own posting. That's why I say your just a copy and paste artist.

Well no Dah. I never said that calcium was not used in the plant's cell walls. There's a HUGE difference in plants having elements in their plant tissue, and them being mobile "STORED" for later use. But if you actually bother to read and UNDERSTAND the article, the key phrase that contradicts your statements is:

"Calcium, once incorporated into plant tissue is immobile so a constant supply is necessary for continued growth.

The key word is "IMMOBILE" that means that once the calcium is deposited, it cant be moved to other plant tissue when needed as you claim. I have read the article many times, that is how I know that calcium is "IMMOBILE" in plant tissue. Hence my original statement "calcium is immobile in plant tissue. They are unable to store it, then use it later in other plant tissue as needed. Once it is stored, it's stuck where it was stored/used."

Another key statement you missed:

"Calcium pectate is like a glue binding adjacent cells together so if inadequate calcium is not transported during cell formation, tissues become less stable and prone to disintegration."

This statement and especially phrase "during cell formation" also clearly shows that calcium is "IMMOBILE" and cant be "STORED" for later use. Calcium is the glue for cell formation in plant tissue, and if you don't have proper bonding between the cells on the molecular level (gluing them together) they will decompose prematurely, causing sick plants as well as be much more susceptible to disease. Bottom line is plants need calcium to grow healthy plant tissue, and because calcium is "IMMOBILE," a steady supply of it is needed if you want healthy new plant growth. georgeiii, please try read and understand the posted material, rather than just picking one sentience and letting the whole concept/point of it go over your head.

Your Dr was very clear about that and didn't in any way mention anything about how my Hydroponics work.
Yes, she is absolutely EXTREMELY CLEAR about the point (if you are able to read). There is no reason what so ever she would mention YOUR grow system. she also didn't specify the info was for plants grown in DWC or NFT systems only either. I wonder Why that is? Well no Dah, plants in your system don't defy nature, they react the same all the time whether in your system, in soil, in hydroponics, hanging pots,, glass on the counter, or even in what you call "your hydroponics." There is no difference in how plants uptake nutrients, why they need them, or how their able to use them. That's reality!!

But it was an intersting article and help me understand how temp was a problem.
Well I'm glad you learned something, even if you didn't understand many of the points. Though nutrient temps, and temps in the root zone are really a basic lesson. In fact in most cases (such as myself years ago) that's the first lesson new hydroponic growers learn. Hopefully you'll be able to but your ego aside and continue to learn more from REAL "EXPERTS," then you'll be able to grow better healthier plants.

But... there is something I want to say. There is no expert in this but me. Hello everyone. Plain ordinary me. That what you can get over.
If you believe the only qualifications for being an expert in plant biology and/or hydroponics is nothing more than just posting anything you want in a forum (the only qualifications you have), well that's just really sad and pathetic. Hey I post in a forum! I have that qualification, that makes me an EXPERT too!!!!!!

I just looked at my Photobucket account and the numbers say more and more people are looking. That's all I'm looking for. People who are looking to help themselves.
I looked at your Photobucket pictures myself, did you win me over, do I seem impressed? Fact is just because you post a link many, many, many times and people look at it does not mean they like what they see. The reason more and more people are looking is because you post the link in just about every other post of yours. You weren't doing that before. I can create a bogus website with bogus information, post the link to it over and over and watch the hits come in. That dosen't make anything on the site (in your case pictures) any more true.

Fact is your just out for popularity, and yes I know all your looking for is to get clicks/visits. You have a long way to go in learning how to make money online. Getting visitors isn't the same as impressing them. Those are two very different things, and getting visitors is always easy to do. I know tricks that will give you thousands of visitors overnight, and just what your looking for if all you are interested in is getting visitors. But those tricks aren't for me because I know the value of wanting returning visitors.

Spring is early this year. Can not wait too. Have a good one.

That would be interesting. I would be willing to bet if you took a gallon of chlorine and poured it on a section of grass in your front yard it would not live long. Here is an article that I was re reading for another reason but thought it might shed some light on the subject. I'm specifically speaking about the section titled "1. Chlorination of water supplies

Water Wisdom For Hydroponics

But yes I do grow plants that started in soil and I transfered into the Sustainable system
Well no Dahh, I've seen your pictures REMEMBER. It dosen't take an Einstein to figure that out, even when you try and imply otherwise.

I transfered into the Sustainable system and there's much more than just 16
By gorge I think your right (even though not correct), I think my math was off. You stated "I started 24 different seeds" witch is where my math was off. You don't state any of them were in hydro (even though you always imply that). So starting from the beginning,

You stated:
Actual
6...........repotted 30 Meyer lemons(six into Hydro-Pods)
0...........5 Avocado's they "now need to be re-potted into Hydro-Pots" (but aren't in hydro yet so they don't count)
5...........5 Norfolk pines (Hydro-Pods)
3...........and three in Sustainable systems
Total.....14....(not 16)

So the total is actually lower. And out of those plants you mentioned at least 6 were just transplanted, and by all means shouldn't even count, but I still gave you credit anyway. Though you continuously try and mislead people into thinking every plant you mention has been growing in hydro from seeds/cuttings. That's just one of your sidetracking/misleading techniques. Witch is completely false, and evident in your pictures for everyone to see. Just because you may mention a thousand plants, and post a thousand pictures on another website, that dosen't make them hydroponically grown plants. Very few are, and even those were just transplanted from soil. Again very evident in your pictures for anyone who takes a closer look to see.

Just repotted these Brugmansia into Hydro-Buckets. The root system for the larger one was three feet long. That surprised me. The branch was only a foot long itself. Repotted one of the Avocado's into a Hydro-Bucket. I've moved three of the five Hydro-Stations outside. There's four Tangerine trees, five Strawberries in Hydro-Pods in Hydro-Buckets. Two Primroses in Hydro-Pots, two each Romanine and Head Lettace. It's now 96 seedling to be repotted into the Hydro-System. I have enough different pods for all of them (I was busy this very short winter). The Barbados nuts (four-three year old plants-13 one year old cuttings)that's more than 16 by their self. The Coral trees have been in their Hydro-Buckets for two years now. Their producing some very beautiful seed pods. The Budda Bellies have some very large flower displays and already produced several seed pods over the winter. Infact they produced seeds several times all winter. But the plants that have just run away are the Ponytail palms. There's eight of them. The largest one in a Hydro-Bucket has what I can only call beautiful roots hanging from it. The "growth chamber" effect has allowed me to put off watering all of these for at least a month during the winter for at least a month and more for most. Oh, wait I didn't mention the China dolls. There's four small one's and one large which I already posted pictures of. The root system on the largest is second to the Ponytails but the top part is showing node branching. I have until October imagine the sight that will be then.
There was a question about secondary nutrients being stored in plants. Well yes if your talking about vegetables yes the nutrients are locked in the plant but because I work with muti-year plants things are different. I have to figure in what happens to those nutrients when the plants go thru their dormant stage when leaves and roots die off. Those nutrients are stored in those roots and leaves that die off. In nature it's stored in the leaves and roots that decay but become bio-material waiting for reuse in the spring. Gives the plants that extra boost.

Actual
0.......Just repotted these Brugmansia into Hydro-Buckets (no quantity was mentioned, so they cant be counted)
1.......Repotted one of the Avocado's into a Hydro-Bucket
0.......I've moved three of the five Hydro-Stations outside (there is no mention of which they are, thus there is no way to tell if they would only be counted once or twice)
5.......five Strawberries in Hydro-Pods in Hydro-Buckets
0.......There's four Tangerine trees (It isn't clearly stated what system their in)
2.......Two Primroses in Hydro-Pot
0.......two each Romanine and Head Lettace (It isn't clearly stated what system their in)
0.......It's now 96 seedling to be repotted into the Hydro-System (to be potted into hydro just dosen't count)
0.......The Barbados nuts, four-three year old plants-13 one year old cuttings (no mention of what type system their in)
0.......The Coral trees have been in their Hydro-Buckets for two years now (there is no quantity to count)
0.......The Budda Bellies have some very large flower displays and already produced several seed pods over the winter. (no mention of what type system their in, or even quantity to count)
1.......There's eight of them. The largest one in a Hydro-Bucket has what I can only call beautiful roots hanging from it.
0.......Oh, wait I didn't mention the China dolls. There's four small one's and one large which I already posted pictures of. (no mention of what type system their in).
Total.............................9

That isn't more than 16 where I learned to do math. Just because you mention a plant dosen't make it hydroponically grown (even in your nutrient deprived system you call hydroponics). You had more soil-less plants to count in your original list of 14. Bottom line georgeiii, you can make as many new lists as you want, but one look at the pictures you post on photobucket, and it's clear that 90%+ of the plants you have growing are not hydroponically grown. You seem to get such a thrill from taking a soil grown plant, then washing the soil off and placing it into a bucket water culture system, then jump for joy just because it didn't die yet.

There was a question about secondary nutrients being stored in plants. Well yes if your talking about vegetables yes the nutrients are locked in the plant but because I work with muti-year plants things are different.

No there wasn't any question about secondary nutrients. There was only your totally bogus statement "The Ca/Mg isn't a problem if you think of it in the long term. The plant storge those over time for the amount it needs to flower.." That's a completely false statement (one year plant, or 50 year plant it's false). Do I really need to re-post the article for you? Furthermore

"Continued crop removal of Ca, Mg, and S requires replentishment just as surely as primary nutrients"

"To demonstrate that this classification is more responsive to soil ability to supply nutrients than plant requirements, it should be noted that plant requirements for Ca, a secondary nutrient element, is greater than for P. Calcium is found as a principle exchangeable cation in most soils and an important soluble cation in the soil solution. Phosphorus, on the other hand, is only slightly soluble in most soils, and many soils (particularly acid soils and alkaline soils) have the potential for causing phosphorus deficiencies."

(quotes taken from: Essential Elements for Plant Growth)

Thus the classification of calcium as a secondary nutrient has nothing to do with the plants need for it, but is based rather on the higher availability and solubility of calcium in most soils. Just to be clear for anyone wondering, the plants needs are always the same weather your growing in soil or hydro. How their gown won't change plant biology. How their grown only changes their environment. Better environment, heather plants.

How you keep trying to tie soil requriments to hydro. I'm not even going trying try and repeat what I al;ready explained. Please live in ignorence. Hey tho, It looks good so far for the 2012 season.

Please live in ignorence
What would be ignorant is to simply believe the unsubstantiated claims that some yahoo keeps repeating in some forum, and demanding people believe them without anything reputable to back up the bogus and unsubstantiated claims, even though every reputable source says otherwise. Pictures of plants in pots is not proof that the plants you grow (or any plants) somehow magically defy everything known about how plants actually do grow.

Plant biology has been researched by many, many, many respected experts in their fields. But you say don't believe them, just believe you because you know everything, and all the research that's been done by EXPERTS in the past 100 years or so is wrong. What would be ignorant is to just believe some yahoo in some forum that every bit of research done is wrong because he says so. THAT WOULD BE BEING IGNORANT.

That about says it all right there. Plants need nutrition to produce fruits and veggies, try growing Tomatoes.....

If you think we are all living in the world of the horse and buggy, and you are the only one with an auto. Well that's exactly the fantasy world you live in. If you believe you can re-wright everything known about plant science by yourself, good luck with that. In order to do so, you'll need to prove your BOGUS CLAIMS to the scientific community first. But trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the scientific community wont be nearly as easy as trying to fool a bunch of new growers in some forum with worthless photobucket pictures that don't PROVE squat. Good luck trying to feed your BS to "REAL EXPERTS" that know their fields.

P.S.
And please, a different way! Not even close, people have been haphazardly putting nutrients on roots for hundreds of years. Just because you choose to do it on plants in a typical DWC type system, dosen't make it a different way. There is nothing new, or different in what you do.

What I claim is listed right at the top of this thread
You make many bogus claims, and make them in many threads. The claims you make in the first post of "THIS" thread are all basically generic and can be said about any DWC system, except for one huge bogus claim "Doesn't need pH reading each plant sets it's own pH level. You have never supplied anything to support this bogus claim (just your say so), even though everything published by EXPERTS say otherwise. That's just one example of your BS (and from just one post in this thread).

People ask yourself if the GardenWeb had any notion I was providing false information they'd shut me down
Really!!! That's such a laugh, as well as just another example of your bogus claims. But since you can't find anything to support your bogus claims, I guess the last straw for you is to just try and suggest their valid, simply because your allowed free speech. The simple right to free speech dosen't equal validity of the statements/words said (to people living in reality anyway).

Do you ever leave your fantasy world? The garden web forum dosen't even care when sellers post their SPAM. In what world do you live in that you think any garden web administrator is going to bother reading your posts (or anybody's for that mater), then spend one second researching the validity of anything you or anybody says??? Again, the right to free speech dosen't equal validity.

Science isn't wrong it's just moved forward
The only problem with that statement is there isn't anything published to support the science you make up in your head. Science is always moving forward, but your science is only found in science fiction books or movies. And the since community dosen't rely on using science fiction books and movies for their research. They know how to tell the difference between reality and fiction, and they don't publish fiction and try and pass it off as reality like you do.

The newest picture of the China Doll root system. I have several more of these I want to pot up to 5lb inserts. The grape plant had me worried the most but I can see a tupor pressue difference so I know it's all right.
The Ponytail palm, the one bursting out it's insert? I guess it should be repotted into a gallon insert for the summer. The fruit trees I transplanted are leafing up well. I posted more pictures of other things I have growing with this Sustainable Hydroponic system.

I have several Avocoado growing right now. Took one outside and the weather beat it up rather badly. It's recovering now. Their easy to start but winter is where the trouble comes for most people.
Something I noticed this year is the sun bured leaves. But only in the media containers. The Hydroponic ones all are alright. I do mean direct sun for 7-8 hours a day. Also started a squad of Meyer Lemons with out air circulation. Their growing better than the media ones I have outside. Plus a friend that I did landscape work for called me to say that a Hybrid yellow tea rose I planted for her had been broken. That branch turned out to be 8' long and three wide. So I just cut it into little pieces, kept a few. I started taking picture because I wanted to see how long before it recovered. Funny thing they haven't wilted yet. So I'm taking pictures of Peacock geraiumn hardwood cuttings that did wilt. See how long it takes them to recover.

I wanted to post this picture of the Hybrid Tea rose so you can see the improvements over the summer.

As for validating my "theories" or your support why would I need you for that? The plants do that.

In what world does a photo provide proof of SQUAT? First point Photoshop does wonders. Second there is no verifiable documentation of anything you post. In your own words you just use any fertilizer you have on the shelf. What kind of scientific researcher is that? Nothing that any self respecting university would ever admit to when conducting research. Fact is you don't fallow any guidelines in terms of research, but make all kinds of unverifiable and bogus claims instead.

Dates on your pictures don't mean SQUAT to anyone but you. Besides the fact they can easily be altered with software, dates don't prove what you do or don't do for your plants in any way shape or form. Not to mention that in reality they don't even prove their your plants in the first place, much less prove SQUAT of anything else. But your history has proven time and time again that you cant be trusted for anything. There's a reason you never post links to anything that could validate your bogus theories, that's because you cant find any thing to do that from a reputable source.

This is exactly how you try and sidetrack the points in hopes nobody will notice. If there was a shred of verifiable proof form any reputable source anywhere to validate any of your bogus theories, you would be happy to post it. But it dosen't exist, so you try to sidetrack people with the only thing you have. Pictures that don't PROVE anything to anybody but you. It's my intention to make sure that people know just how you try and sidetrack the truth.

Last year I took several cuttings from a Brugmansia White. They grew quite well and I'm transplanting them to a 5lb insert into a Hydro-Bucket.

I still have the main two plants that are growing into shrubs. Now they were plaqnted into SWC last year and bloomed rather weakly. This year new arms are appearing all along their stems. The cuttings were all put into Hydro-Pots. There's like twelve. All sutvived. Best thing because they were taken from mature wood they too will flower this year.

This year I'm growing roses and bought a "First Prize" yellow hybrid tea shrub rose. Yes it was in media grown but has taken to the Sustainable system quickly.

Have a pleasent Earth Day everyone

There is nothing strange about that at all, in fact millions of people do the very same thing. Your delivery system is only important and new to you. Millions of people have been squirting nutrients directly at the base of the plant as well.

The comment that you cant understand the context of (well really trying to shift the focus from) is that you don't do or have any kind of controls in any of the variables of the plants that you do grow without soil. But yet you make wild and unsubstantiated claims and theories based on it. You never give any sources of verifiable research that backs up any of your bogus theories. You just base all your bogus theories on the haphazard way you grow plants, rather than with any scientific method.

There is nothing wrong, or even new about the haphazard way you grow plants, what is wrong is basing your bogus theories on it.

The Avocado's tho it took a long time for them to germinate are growing nicely once they did.

This is another bulb I got from the market. Called Jicama, to me it look like a small Elephant ear. I bought three and five and three came up. They said it might not because of the chemical they use to preserve them.The Moon Glow pear tree while it didn't fruit it flowered. Since it was only put into the system on 4-4-2012 I didn't complain. I found 30 3'x3' wire shelves so I can make use of some of the uneven ground here. The Roses, the Roses are all looking good. I'll add some pictures later. So far everything that I've put into the system works. Next month I'm adding Soybeans.

And here's the Hydro-Buckets. It's only been four days and already their growing.

this is what's making my methods interesting. 50 days before adding just one gallon of water. That even suprised me. This is what making gardening interesting everyday for me.

If you've been following along you can see more progress with the China Doll.

Here's one of the plants I had doubt about. The Himrod seedless grape. Now that the weather has warmed it's growing. New shoots from every node. I think next month I'll add a tomato cage.
Another was the Japanese Snowball. It's still bare brown but roots are showing out the insert.

I started 16 Yellow popcorn seedlings in Quad Pods.I worked on corn two years ago and the results weren't great

The problem then was the timing of the fertilizer.

These are four Big boy tomato's in the system. The one on the far end wasn't getting air so it was stunted for about two weeks. Once it got air it caught up with the others quick. I removed the first flowers last week.

Added seven Coffee plants.

The two small Lemon trees are puting on their second flush of new growth this year.

The Moonglow pear has started it's growth chamber.

There's more going,on a host of peppers, four red-yellow tomato's, Sweet corn, melons and such. More pictures at Photobucket-ChristianWarlock.

Seems I'm having trouble getting images down loaded. Something I'm having trouble with is I switched fertilizer concentrations with the system. Tomato's, Brugmansia are showing yellow leaves just like they were lacking rather than recieving to much nitrogen. Plus streatching of the stems. I switched back but it's going to be a few days before I can tell everything's back to normal.
Two of the four Avocado plants were chewed off by a squrllel. I'm letting them remain in the Buckets to see if they re-branch

What happened to your foolproof system? You constantly claimed it didn't matter what you you fertilized with, or even in what concentrations (just a squirt). After all, you never gave any scientific parameters, you just mixed whatever you had on the shelf (and say nothing else was needed), and you just mixed them in what ever way you felt like doing that day (not having any parameters to compare anything to as your scientific analysis), then claim that the plants will magically do the rest. What happened to the foolproof theory/s? What happened to your peeing on a vitamin to make your own cheep nutrient solution, are you still working with NASA on that one?

Grizz,
Perhaps you may be able to give some real information/data on the parameters in your (georgeiii) system/s (unlike georgeiii). Simply stating that it dosen't matter what you do, or how you do it will produce great plants isn't good enough for me. There needs to be real data backing up the claims if their to be taken seriously. Georgeiii has yet to be able to back up any of his claims with any reliable data. Perhaps if you are giving his system/s a try, you can be an objective party. Even give the real data/parameters that you experience.

Personally, I'm only interested in the real scientific explanations/experiments. If it can be backed up scientifically, I'm all ears. Claims that are just demand to beveled as true scientific data without question, sit on a tack and call it macaroni.

Anyways, Georgiii, I would up your benzodiazapenes or get on some haloperidol. Seriously though, you have delusions of grandeur that remind me of a schizophrenic.

If this is the case and you do have a mental disorder, I don't mean to offend, I am just being a good guy and pointing out the obvious.

Well how about Yellow Popcorn

But really you can go to Photobucket/ChristianWarlock and see the many things I'm growing.
So when you really get down to what your objections are let me know.

Sorry about the doubles

Just a pitures of the different plants. This Hybrid tea rose I got at Wal-Mart this Spring. That picture is from 8-8-2012.

This is from 8-16-2012. It stasrted with one rose then two now eight.

The Hass Avocado that had been chewed off at the base. Two months later.

The coffee seedlings I repotted into Hydro-Pods

The Himrod seedless grape.

Food bulbs from the market. They make nice plants too.

The Japanese Snowball I was ready to throw out.

Meyers Lemons

Gets to be a long list. While that's all well and good for tropical and semi-tropical plants . Vegetables are still a problem. Tree aren't a problem either. Seems long term growth is workable. Short term I'm still working on.

I've added several Papaya's to Hydro-Pods and Hydro-Pails for winter growth. The pictures of the Papays are giving me troble. I'll post them later

I got lucky and even got Mango's to sprout from seed. Two have germinated with a third as a no show

I have a Hydro-Squads of them growing in Hydro-Pods. Their doing well. Less root loss in the transfer. I mention this because the larger is loseing leaves. Or just dying back. Just a thought. Now I say this because the root loss of the larger is the same as the root lost in the Coral tree and the Barbados nut. Both lost the secondary roots only the Coral tree and the nut had thicker primary roots.

The Mango above is doing good. Six thin leaves in a rosette. Those are going to need the winter to reach some size. Others on that list
Norflok pines
Meyer Lemons's
Sable Palm
More Ponytail palms
Vineing roses
Sago Palm

Problem is...plants. Figuring out all the different light zones they'll survive in. Truth be told I'm going to like having them around. The oxygen level alone.

Makes a nice house plant tho.

The Mango seedling is comming along.

Norflok Pine

Meyer lemon. These really picked up during the last part of summer. Or it could be the transferr to a larger Pot.

Here is the root system of the Moonglow pear.

How are you going to improve these systems, which seem like
they do work albeit not enough for growing food, so that
you can accomplish your goal?

-Mike

So it sounds to me like there is a point where you will have
to assume that in order to grow enough food for sustainability
you will need to add more fertilizer to the plants.

Or do you have another idea to get the plants to produce
more food/fuel?

That's what I mean by plug and play as the plant grows you just move it to a larger container in the line. Those two picture are one of the Avocado I grew from seed in a Nanny Pod to a Hydro-Pot to a Hydro-Bucket. That's where it will stay.

Your plug and place systems can make a nice garden for
looks, but it will never be able to produce enough food
to feed people efficiently enough to be worth it unless you
increase fertilizer in the system.

You need to have food everyday. Your system may make some
food for eating one day a month if you used 20+ pods or
whatever you call them but it isn't going to work without
more fertilizer.

For what its worth you have a nice idea of art and such and
I think that is what your system is really there for. It
represents nature and the damages humans have done to
Earth. Thats cool. But, I think that it is deceptively optimistic
to think that these will be able to produce food for a
family without more fertilizer.

Something we're always forgetting in the modern world. Plants make their own food.

I'll let you know how that goes

Looking forward to learning the methods of your madness George.

This is a struggle between anaerobic and aerobic bactria in the fertilizer. I show this because why the plant grow slowly when not attendent to. Because of using plastic causes the water to ciculate without outside force. And your right grizz there is a difference but if something happens the plants don't die because of it. Infact the roots that die off are eaten by the anaerobic bacteria and changed to nutrients for the plants new roots that are produced. Problem with using distilled water is that the air would still bring bacteria into the system.

Because it does!

Even municipal water has nutrients in it. Small amounts, but enough that it must still be considered in your setup where you're adding small amounts of nutrients.

It is all relative.

Georgeiii, yes bacteria do convert dead plant matter back into usable nutrients. HOWEVER. It is not a 100% conversion rate, they don't take all nitrogen and convert it back. You do lose nutrients to the imperfections of the bacteria.

Furthermore, for bacteria to grow and multiply, they use nutrients.

Lets continue. Dead roots do amount to SOME nutrients. MOST of the nitrogen, carbon, sugars, chlorophyll, etc. are in the leaves/stems of the plant! Unless you're placing the dead leaves into the reservoir then your system is consuming 1000X how much the bacteria fix and regenerate from dead roots.

Your idea is flawed. Tap water is contributing the main source of nutrients, guaranteed. Well, your "squirt" is actually.

Love the photos, love the info, love the peer reviews and questions.

Keep it up!! It is helping to further flatten my learning curve!

"Many nitrogen-fixing organisms exist only in anaerobic conditions, respiring to draw down oxygen levels, or binding the oxygen with a protein such as leghemoglobin.[1]"

You use air pumps from what I have seen. How is your aerobic, oxygenated water producing so much anaerobic bacteria? It probably isn't, quite frankly.

Another flaw to realize about your logic is that you're feeding your plants ready-to-use nutrients. Bacteria fix nutrients from N2 gas, ammonia, and nitrite. Your nitrogen in fertilizer is already nitrate, which means that it is of no use for the bacteria. They cannot even use that form of nitrogen.

The only reason your plants grow, I think, is still because of small amounts of nutrients in the tap water and that squirt of fertilizer you give them. I have no reason to believe in that in your system it is the bacteria that are providing necessary nutrients to the plants. I would bet that the amount they provide to the plants is not even significant. How can you prove that the bacteria are making your system work? What evidence do you have other than assumptions based on stuff you have read? Those assumptions are merely hypothesis without some type of proof. Because the naked eye cannot distinguish between the type of bacteria in your buckets and how much food they're creating. Ah-hah, you need a microscope or take a bucket of your water from one of your "pods" or whatnot to a local university and ask them to test it.... then I may believe you.

While it hasn't snowed that much it been freezeing for a number of days. This is really just an experiment. I'd hate to lose the tree but having this work out would help so many people who don't have regular space.