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disinmtl

Hydro Tomato - Leaf Curl, Roll, Drooping

disinmtl
15 years ago

Hi,

This forum seemed more appropriate for my post since I believe the source of my problem stems from my hydroponics setup, however, all opinions are greatly appreciated. Also, I am a rookie grower (lettuce, tomatoes, and hydroponics).

Here is some info regarding my setup:

Light Source: HPS 1000w (started on 18/6, now on 12/12 for flowering purposes - query: is that necessary since they flowered during 18/6, but some poster said they won't set fruit without a 12/12 cycle).

Room Temp: Day: 70F Night: 60F

Room RH: 50-60%

Water Temp: Approx 65F

Water pH: between 6-6.5, note early on I think it was closer to 7 often.

Exhaust and Fan: Box fan blows softly on plants for stem strength and to pollinate (necessary?). Standard bathroom exhaust vent fan that shares the dryer exhaust.

Medium: Ughhhh, I want to do all organic vegetables and did not want to pay for coconut coir, so I went perlite and vermiculite with cocotex planters. I used, as recommended by the guy at the store, a 50/50 mix. I think this was a mistake, the vermiculite holds water forever and clogs everything. The perlite also likes to break down and develop properties similar to the vermiculite.

Setup:

Containers: This is where I really should have do some more due diligence. B/c I had seen hydroton used, I thought everything drained that way (moron). So, I have 3" pvc tubes with holes drilled out to hold the planters (my planters are either 1.5" or 3" diameter). I also filled the entire tube with the medium (mistake, right?, I could have just allowed the roots to grow out of the planters into the pvc? now I have major drainage issues which require semi-manual feeding to prevent overflow. I also have two K style pvc gutters full of the medium with younger plants in them (exposed surface like a flood table, work great, but soil stays wet, see below). I also have one pvc tube with only perlite in it (still has overflow probs).

Feeding System: 18 gl reservoir using a 1/6 hp sump pump connected to 3/4" pvc irrigation pipe that runs to 6 couplers where it meets 1/2 o.d. vinyl which connects to Rain Bird Mushroom Bubblers.

Water Source: tap, often feed right away, not anymore, now wait until water heats up b/c I use cold.

Feeding Schedule: Once per day in the morning heavily. Should it be two days or more?

nutrients: organic grow and bloom, hydrozyme, and calplex.

airstone: yes

Plants: Tomatoes: brandywine: grow well, but sick now, cherry: never grown well, beefsteak: grows well, now very sick and confused. Lettuce: all types I have tried grow great. Baby Tomatoes are all healthy: roma, brandywine, super sweet 100, fourth of july, organic sweety and brandywine.

Problems:

Leaf Curl/Yellow/Purple lower: Slight upward cupping existed always in the lower mature leaves and they turned yellow on top and purple on the bottom but not on the veins. I have seen many pics of sick tomato leaves, I think it was magnesium or iron for the yellowing, purple - phos?, leaf curl: I don't know what caused it. Also the cherry was generally yellow throughout, and the beefsteak grew like crazy (determinate), but was purple and dark green all over, stems had a purple hew and leaves are dark green top/purple underneath.

Leaf/Stem Roll: I upped the nutrients without much forethought or ruling out of potential problems (Like I said, pH was prob 7). So I jacked the nutrients (aggressive fruiting with the bloom fert) and pretended their was an extra gl of water b/c I wanted to catch up (I had under feed them at least once and had messed with their feeding cycle often b/c of h2o dist. issues, now solved). And everything was great, yellow going away, plants growing like mad, everything going green, even the cherry's were coming back, and then the leaves, all of them began to roll, downward into tube shapes, then the stems began to roll into spiral shapes, then the stems began to droop down, and everything is now drooped down. The edges and tips of the leaves are dead. Some branches have now died.

Ram's Horn/Downward Cup: The leaf sides cup downward along the center of the leaves, both looking droopy and forcefully cupping down The leaf also bend under and backward, like a ram's horn as some poster's call it.

Color: All leaves became dark, dark green (too much nitrogen?).

So, I read up and thought I had nutrient burn. I flushed for five days, in that time the upward cup began to get much worse while the leaf/stem roll and ram's horn improved on new growth and stabilized or worsened or old growth. I waited until the leaves began to turn yellow, then started them with a weak nute mixture (six days).

They don't seem to be coming back. The perlite tomatoes are in the worst shape. The 50/50 pvc is in better, but still bad. All the above are 6 weeks old and 2-3 ft tall or less if sick. The young ones, two weeks are in the gutters and all healthy, with some slight down leaf cup/ram's horn.

Soil Drainage Issue/Question: Is this the source of my prob, the bottom half of the medium stays wet in the tube forever, but the top half dries every 24hr period. It's always seemingly wet though. Looked at some roots yesterday, they looked pretty white, not brilliant white, but maybe a little brownish. There is some algae growing. Nutrient solution likes to drain out at closer to 7pH.

One last thing, the flowers and tomatoes seem to be pollinating and growing fine on the mature beefsteak and brandywine.

Sorry for the novel, I would love to hear your thoughts and really appreciate it. Thanks. I have lots of pic's but don't know how to post them here.

Comments (12)

  • danielfp
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, your story was very good and it gave me enough information to diagnose your problem. According to everything you tell me I believe your tomatoes are not being affected by a nutritional deficiency, I think they are infected with tomato leaf curl virus, which can cause all the symptoms you describe (obviously the downward leaf curl was an important point!). This is not curable so you may need to sterilize everything and start again with resistant varieties. Hope this helped !

    Here is a link that might be useful: Everything Hydroponics

  • garysgarden
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Tomatoes are susceptible to a wide range of diseases, which is a big part of the reason that humans have cultivated so many different hybrid varieties (to create strains resistant to one or more diseases).

    Like danielfp says, the best course of action is to change to a resistant variety or to wipe out the disease and start over.

    To erradicate something like that you have to take some pretty drastic actions. First, get rid of all the plants you have in the grow room, even if they're not victims of the disease they can carry it.

    Get rid of any dirt you have, if you use hydroton or a similar sterile growing media disinfect it with bleach, and use bleach or a similar very strong anti-bacterial/fungicide on everything in the room, including the room itself. I mean EVERYTHING. Pots, tanks, walls, floors, everything.

    Start over using only new or freshly disinfected materials and you should hopefully see the end of that problem. Oh, and don't forget to rinse off the bleach from the growing media. Roots don't like bleach.

  • freemangreens
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just a quick intervention: Before you trash your entire growing effort, you might want to try merely aerating your nutrient solution and also the places where the roots are submerged in water using a standard fish tank air pump and an air stone.

    I've successfully grown several cultivars of tomato using the "RAMP" technique, which is completely submerged roots 24/7 -- but each container had its own air stone bubbling away 24/7.

    Free oxygen in the nutrient is its own magic!

    Hope my suggestion is not too late!

  • disinmtl
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it. Okay, so I am on vaca and only just checked the postings (so the plants are still alive).

    My thoughts and updates:

    I obviously don't want to have a virus, so I am going to be a little stubborn going down that road. Did I mention I am completely indoor - can I still get the virus?

    I did notice that some kind of grass will sua sponte (i.e., on its own) grow out of the medium (perlite/vermiculite). Does this mean its not sterile or my basement is not?

    Additionally, I did some more research on account of the drooping stems. I found a scientist who said this:

    -not enough o2 in the soil causes anaerobic conditions, which causes the plants to increase ethylene production, which causes epinasty. Epinastic symptoms manifest themselves as drooping stems and leaves - he did not mention curl, but others have.

    Also, I noticed some of my baby tom's have the beginning of blossom end rot (which is symptomatic of over-watering, right?).

    Freemangreens - I have an airstone in my res, but not in my pvc pipes, is their a way to aerate inside the medium - perlite/vermiculite?

    And I feel like a moron asking, but point out how to post photo's and I'll get 'em up.

    As always, any insight is appreciated, what fun this is, oh, but like everything, it's an all I can eat buffet for my head.

  • grizzman
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    disinmtl Blossom bottom rot is caused, primarily, by a lack of calcium getting to the fruit. this can be caused by over watering, under watering, and/or a general lack of calcium available.
    for directions on how to post images please view the last few posts of theHydroponic Strawberries thread.

  • freemangreens
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Freemangreens - I have an airstone in my res, but not in my pvc pipes, is their a way to aerate inside the medium - perlite/vermiculite?"

    You don't have to aerate using perlite; it's 50% open to the air already. Just keep it moist. I use a moisture meter, but if all else fails, just stick your finger into the perlite and shove it down around the roots. If it feels damp, that's enough.

    Perlite lets the roots breathe while allowing them to stay moist, grow and transfer nutrient to the rest of the plant. There is no need to aerate the growing medium unless it is 100% liquid. The fact that you have an air stone in your holding tank is sufficient.

    I'm trying a brand new strawberry growing concept this weekend. I'll post the results here and on my Web page this weekend or next week. Stay tuned.

  • garysgarden
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well there's two reasons to aerate the solution. One is for the plants, and the other is for the health of the solution itself. Aerating the nutrient solution helps prevent the growth of harmful microbes and it should be aerated if for no other reason.

    So yes, aerate the reservoir to keep the potential for bad things growing to a minimum. But don't worry about how well it is aerated in the medium. For one thing it takes hours to fully de-gas water, depending on volume.

    Regarding the virus question, you can transmit them yourself. Plant viruses can't harm us, but we can carry them on our skin. That's one of the reasons it's important to wash your hands before handling your indoor plants.

    A major disease vector for indoor gardens is actually smoking. Smoking can transmit viruses from the tobacco to the skin of the smoker (or directly to the plant if the smoke reaches it). Modern tobacco strains are remarkably hardy and can grow despite many viral infections that would cripple other crops. And since they're not harmful to people, there's no need for the tobacco companies to worry about those viruses entering their product.

  • disinmtl
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here are my pics, posted on goonies thread, Leaf Curl Pic, since we have the same prob to compare, they like identical. Still my prob continues.

    any advice is appreciated.

  • borndiva2006_yahoo_com
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is my 2nd attempt to grow 1 cherry plant in my aerogarden 3. The first on was pathetically short at 5 weeks old it looked like it was 2 weeks old.

    Aerogrow was kind enough to send me a new seed pod & so far this plant is having trouble too.

    This plant was planted January 15, 2009 (which I believe is 7 weeks ago)

    Your pics of 7 weeks look alot different than mine as you can see from the pictures. And there is a problem with the leaves! They keep turning brown & drying up.

    As you can see, the plant isnt too close to the grow light. Also I am just using the nutrient tabs that AG sent me.

    Today I changed the water and found what looks like green algae & mold in the bowl. I cleaned & sanitized it with bleach & used distilled water & a fresh nutrient. I also cut the brown leaves off.

    Do u think my problem will be solved? Will this baby recover & finally grow?

    Pic 1 http://www.jessijordan.com/aerogarden/img/Img_0691.jpg

    Pic 2 http://www.jessijordan.com/aerogarden/img/Img_0692.jpg

    Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:999250}}

  • garysgarden
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've had the same problem with tomatoes before - not in an aerogarden. I'm not quite sure what causes it.

    The algae is a bad sign though, that's a likely cause. As a side note when you want to prune I recommend breaking the leaves off at the stem. Tomatoes have what's called a compound leaf, each of the flat "leaves" on a common stem are actually just part of one leaf.

    Look for a leaf that comes straight off the end of a stem. Follow that stem back until it meets another stem. Everything along that is one "leaf". Break the stem off sideways at the stalk it comes out of. This lessens water loss and stress to the plant.

  • paddyboom
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    as you can see, im having a problem..my ph is usally 6-7,my ppm is 1300..60gal tank,bucket system this garden is 4 weeks old.i have rinsed and refilled ..i use chemgro 4-18-38 please help,my plants have lots of blooms,and tom. some are 6ft. tall 3-4 in. a day...