both are from the same thing - compost,etc. Humic is thicker, brown in color and best as a fertilizer. Fulvic is refined from humic and is yellowish, has smaller molecules and is better able to penetrate cells faster

both are from the same thing

agree

Well I can tell you they are definitely not the same. I bout some and humic is black and had a greater dilution ratio the n the fulvic which is brown.

not the same thing.. made from the same thing. Its molecularly different

If your trying to marry organics and hydroponics there's a much simpler way. just take a vitiamin and use your own urine for fertilizer. One liter of urine to 2 1/2 gallons water. There's fulic acid in vitiamins. There's a debate about how hydroponics can be labeled organic and using urine will be the only way. It works on all plants. They like us

I can tell you right now there is no fulvic acid in any vitamins. You are thinking of FOLIC acid which is completely different and not remotely related to FUlVIC acid. However you've made a very common misconception. A lot of people Ive talked to made the same mistake because the words sound almost the same. I will not be pissing or $hitting in my plants any time soon. But thanks...I guess. lol

georgeiii, that is just NASTY. That is my food and I don't care how sterile urin is suppose to be.

The debate on "Organics" and "Hydroponics"
There is a huge popular debate about the value of "organic"
fertilizers and methods, many people would like to apply
"organics" to hydroponics. Currently accepted organic fertilizer
components are dependent upon organisms in the soil to convert
the "organic" materials into a useable form for plants.
In hydroponics we provide the minerals required for plant growth
directly, completely eliminating the need for soil and soilorganisms.
The result is much higher growth rates, yields and even
crop quality than organic methods can achieve. This is not what
some people want to hear, but it is the simple scientific truth - and
practically all scientists and educators in the fields of agriculture
and chemistry know it and will be the first to agree. In fact, the
kinds of materials which are permitted for use under "organic"
regulations are not of sufficient purity to be used for hydroponic
culture.
With this in mind it's important to recognize the reasons that
"organically" grown produce is gaining such popularity.
Consumers want to buy produce which is not tainted with
hazardous chemicals or poisons. There is an increasing public
demand for methods which are gentle on our delicate planet and
which don't harm the soil, water or ecosystems. Hydroponic
farming methods fit properly into this system of values if used
appropriately. Hydroponics protects soil because it doesn't use soil.
Less water is required for hydroponic culture and consequently
more food can be cultivated with less water. The fertilizers we use
for hydroponics are ultra-pure and leave no residue in the
cultivated fruits and vegetables. Since hydroponic technologies are
more efficient than soil methods, more people can be fed with less
area and ecological impact.
THE ORGANIC HYDROPONIC DEBATE OPENING
PANDORA'S BOX
As seen in the Growing Edge Magazine
During the 1980�s, Americans increasingly became more healthconscious.
Cholesterol was ruled out and exercise became a part of
our daily routines. Today this still holds true, but even more so.
What we put into our bodies is carefully scrutinized, even our
fruits and vegetables, which has made "organic" a buzzword of the
�90s. People are buying organic skin care products, "organic
shampoos" and even "organic clothing". Everybody seems to want
"organic" and hydroponic growers are quite aware of this. Why,
then, are there hardly any "Certified Organic hydroponic growers"
in the United States? Many go through a great deal of trouble to
grow their crops "organically," but even though they follow most
guidelines, they still cannot get the recognition or certification
necessary to sell their produce to most restaurants or natural food
stores as "organic". What is it that is separating organic from
hydroponic methods? Why can't these two technologies work
together under today's American states' certification guidelines?
WHAT'S ORGANIC, WHAT'S NOT?
We would think that this is an easy question to answer, but it isn't.
In the United States there are numerous different definitions of
"organic", many of which differ significantly. Each state has its
own regulations for labeling produce as "organic". Additionally,
there are 36 non-governmental organizations which can certify"
produce as organic. For example, California growers who wish to
sell their produce as "organic" must register with the California
Department of Food and Agriculture and pass their inspection.
However, California grower's can also obtain certification through
the California Certified Organic Farmers (CCOF), which actually
has higher standards for organic than the state has.
The CCOF certification is optional, but produce with California
state registration and CCOF certification may be offered for sale
within the state as "certified organic" If the grower chooses not to
seek CCOF certification, the produce can be offered for sale in
California as "organic," but not "certified organic". Any produce
grown outside of the United States can be sold as "certified
organic" in the country if one of the 36 non-governmental
organizations certifies it. In fact, produce from any state can be
granted certification from one of the non-governmental
organizations, even if it does not meet the organic standards for the
state in which it is being sold. Pretty confusing!
What this all means is that the "organic" label is a matter of
bureaucratic definitions, which can vary from state to state, and
country to country.
In order to bring some kind of standard into play, the U.S.
Department of Agriculture (USDA) � along with state government
regulators, non-governmental certifiers, consumers, industry
interest groups, food processors and various special interest groups
� is writing a federally mandated set of "organic" standards. No
state will be able to apply more stringent standards than those of
the federal. Sometime this spring, the federal standards will be
released for a 90 day comment and review period, and by the end
of 1996 or early 1997, these standards will become law, or
"Frankenlaw"; we'll have to wait and see.
The basic objectives of "organic" practice include the following:
� Avoidance of pesticides, by use of natural pest controls (also
applied by many hydroponics growers).
� Caring for soil by recording nutrients and composting, and
� Moderation of nutrient application with reliance on the buffer
action of humus derived from compost.
Soilless hydroponic cultivation moderates nutrient supply by the
more exact measurements of soluble nutrient formulations, mixed
to meet the optimum requirements of each plant species and
growth phase. Many consumers select "organic" produce,
believing that this is the only way to be assured of pesticide-free
non�hazardous food. While "organic" farming methods do
produce crops generally superior to and safer than those grown by
agri-business practices, modern hydroponic techniques can put
forth equally safe food that in many cases offers advances in
nutrition and taste over their soil-grown "organic" counterparts.
But to the consumer, it's the label that counts, so an increasing
number of growers throughout the United States are struggling to
get organic certification in any way, shape or form.
Meanwhile, this whole situation poses an enormous dilemma to
hydroponic growers who also want organic recognition for their
produce. The primary problem for organic hydroponic growers is
in the formulation of the soilless nutrient solution. A secondary
issue, which concerns the federal regulators, is in the way used
hydroponic nutrient and media such as rockwool are disposed of.
Since "organic" is to a large extent a farming philosophy in support
of a healthy environment, the federal concern is entirely
reasonable.
Although the latter factor has no bearing on the quality and safety
of the produce itself, the impact upon the planet is a real driving
force behind the issue of "organic" farming. If hydroponic growers
can find a way to completely recycle exhausted water, nutrients
and media, then the argument in favor of "organic-hydroponic
certification" becomes much stronger, but there's still the issue of
formulating a satisfactory organic hydroponic nutrient mix.
Organic nutrient regulations prohibit the use of many mineral salts
and highly refined substances, including food and pharmaceutical
grade ingredients that are extremely important for successful
hydroponic nutrient formulation.
Only unrefined minerals can be used on "organic" crops and these
often don't dissolve well or contain quantities of impurities, some
of which are even relatively toxic but are "natural" and therefore
"okay", according to organic standards. For example, mined
phosphate may contain excessive amounts of fluoride, good for
teeth in very small quantities, but harmful to humans in excess.
Mined phosphate also can contain small amounts of radioactive
elements such as radium, which releases radon, also not good for
human health. Chlorides, too, are permitted for organic cultivation
but though they are naturally mined, they can be bad for both
plants and soil, especially if used in excess. Some soils used by
organic farmers contain such toxic elements as selenium, which
can accumulate in the plant tissues and produce. Amazing, isn't it?
When refined, any impurities or toxicities such as those listed
above are removed, but refined minerals make for non-organic
produce. Blood meal, bone meal, fish meal and manures pose
almost no potential safety hazards, but they don't dissolve very
well; they must be broken down through microbial action in the
soil and therefore don't work well in hydroponic applications.
There is also a problem that sometimes arises when using manures.
The Western Fertilizer Handbook, an important guide for
American farmers, points out that many gastro-intestinal illnesses
can he traced back to manures used on organically gown crops. In
the summer of 1995, a serious outbreak of salmonella poisoning
resulted from an organic cantaloupe crop growing in soil fertilized
with fresh chicken manure. The rinds of the melons had become
contaminated and the bacteria caused serious intestinal illness for
many consumers.
Another point that can be made is that strict vegetarians or animal
rights activists may be offended by the use of blood, bone, horn,
hoof and feather meals to grow their food, but these are primary
nutrient sources for organic farmers.
As you can see, this issue Is very complex and there are many
points of view. Essentially though, "organic" farming is part
philosophy and part methodology, but unfortunately defined
bureaucratically.
WHAT'S HYDROPONIC; WHAT'S NOT?
If a plant is grown without soil and with a complete nutrient
solution, that's hydroponics! It can be as simple as plants glowing
in sand, gravel or rockwool with a nutrient drip, or as complex as a
complete waterculture system, such as NFT (Nutrient Film
Technique) or aeroponics.
No matter what method you use, the key to successful
hydroponics is nutrients. Hydroponic crops are raised on a
perfected mix of primary, secondary and micro-nutrients. The
formulas for different crops and environments vary, but all have
been defined from extensive experience with a wide variety of
crops growing in many different environments throughout the
world. Problems may occur where water quality is poor and where
environmental extremes of high or low temperature and humidities
place stress on crops; however, when a hydroponic facility is
properly planned and installed, the resulting crops can be
impressive. Data generated in Europe, Israel, Canada, Australia
and the United States have defined precise combinations of
minerals for a variety of crops. The data is so accurate that
required elements are specified in mS (milisiemens) and uS
(microsiemens), a system of measuring by electrical conductivity
and calculating by atomic weight.
Based on these findings, the Dutch research station at Aalsmeer
has organized nutrient solutions into three classes:
� "A" refers to formulas that have been extensively tested and can
be considered reliable.
� "B" signifies formulas that are fairly new but working quite
well; some changes can be expected before upgrading to a class
"A."
� "C" formulas are experimental; significant changes can be
anticipated before upgrading to class B or A.
Formulas are defined for a given crop growing under different
conditions. For example, elements are specified for the nutrient
reservoir, while a separate specification is made for the nutrients in
the "root environment" if growing media is used, particularly
rockwool. The root environment usually has higher concentrations
of elements since minerals will accumulate in rockwool. To test
the concentration within the media, the grower will squeeze some
nutrient out of a sample of the media, do a basic conductivity and
pH test, and sometimes send the sample to a lab for analysis. If the
concentration of elements in the media rises above the
recommended limits, the grower will have to adjust the
formulation of the nutrient in the reservoir or run a rinse through
the media to lower the nutrient concentration within the root zone.
Another formula may be defined for non-recirculating nutrient,
also called "run-to-waste," where nutrient is sent from the reservoir
on a one-way trip through rockwool onto the ground. This method
is falling into disfavor due to the pollution caused by the nutrient
run-off and discarded rockwool.
HYDROPONIC PRODUCE AND HEALTH
In 1994 a test was commissioned by an investment group to
determine the vitamin and mineral content of hydroponically
grown crops in comparison to soil grown crops, both organic and
nonorganic. Plant Research Technologies Laboratory in San Jose,
California, analyzed tomatoes and sweet peppers; those
hydroponically grown used General Hydroponics' "Flora"
nutrients. The hydroponic produce showed a significant increase in
vitamins and minerals beneficial to human health over the soilgrown
produce. This data indicates the importance of a calibrated
nutrient solution. The crops had been grown following the Dutch
recommendation for hydroponic tomatoes and sweet peppers, and
not only were they of higher nutritional value, the flavor was
reported to be outstanding.
The hydroponic crops were further analyzed to search for
chemicals on the EPA�s "priority pollutant list", of which, none
were found.
American agribusiness is beginning to apply hydroponics on a
significant scale. Large corporate facilities are showing profits and
generating high crop yields with consistent quality at facilities in
Colorado, Utah and Mexico. These installations mark an important
point for hydroponic farming in the United Stares. If the
investments prove profitable over the long term, then steady
growth is going to continue, slowly replacing many field-grown
crops in the marketplace. The British have been applying
hydroponic farming to meet consumer needs for decades. Farming
cooperatives grow tomatoes, cucumbers and salad greens on a very
large scale.
Van Heinegen Bros. produces three pounds of hydroponically
grown tomatoes per year for every man, woman and child in the
British lsles. In support of these enterprises, the British
government runs a research facility, which investigates improved
hydroponic methods, disease and pest control and new plant
varieties. The cooperation between government and farmers has
led to improved crop production, quality and profits.
Although hydroponically grown produce, while usually free of
pesticide and other chemical hazards, does not generally meet the
rather narrow definitions of "organic", it can offer superior flavor,
nutrition, appearance, freshness and she1flife. Many small
hydroponic growers are recognizing these market trends and
cashing in on the huge demand for higher quality produce. Small
growers find that gourmet restaurants and local markets are
delighted to have access to superior quality produce, whether
organically or hydroponically grown.
Since "organic" is pretty much out of the question, an increasing
number of hydroponic growers are promoting their produce as
"pesticide-free." This gives the consumer the reassurance that their
fruits and vegetables have been grown following the most
important principal of "organically" grown produce.
One consequence of this dichotomy is that the term "organic
agriculture" is declining in favor of the term "sustainable
agriculture", which applies to both organic and hydroponic
cultivation. Though many organic growers look down on
hydroponic technology, the superior quality and freshness of
locally grown hydroponic produce is in fact gaining market
acceptance. A new niche is developing for small hydroponic
growers, family farms, and even urban farms in areas that have
traditionally been served by large corporate farms far away.
The simple truth is that top quality organically raised produce can
only be grown under fairly ideal conditions and only seasonally in
most parts of the United States. This results in produce that is
expensive and frequency unavailable or shipped from afar, causing
quality to suffer.
In the "organic" model, good soil is enriched with compost, blood
meal, bone meal, manures and a host of other natural amendments.
These components break down slowly in the soil at a rate in
harmony with the plants' growth; a microbiological process is
required to make the nutrients available to the plants. These
microbes include many organisms that are all in a symbiotic
embrace with the environment and the plants. When done skillfully
in the right environment with the right crop, this is nature and
farming at its finest. But it differs sharply from the hydroponic
model, where microorganisms are unnecessary for the plants to
absorb the prepared nutrients. The nutrient absorption rate of a
hydroponically grown plant is generally much faster than that of a
soil grown plant, since in hydroponics, nutrients are instantly
soluble and available, as is essential oxygen.
Hydroponic plants are usually grown in a relatively sterile
environment, and often with precise controls, from artificial
lighting to extend growing seasons to exotic computer systems that
enable the grower to actually tailor the environment to the crop
wherein hydroponics becomes just one part of the entire system. In
this type of setup, labor is reduced, yet plant growth rates, yields
and quality increase.
Many attempts have been made to create the perfect organichydroponic
nutrient, but so far nothing matches the purified
mineral salts used in formulating hydroponic nutrient solutions.
We note that the European Economic Community (EEC) has
established the category of "mineral organic" for foods grown with
the required mineral nutrients to supplement an organic base of
nitrogen. We previously touched on the fact that United States
agricultural regulations are currently set and applied at the state
level but practically all states prohibit the use of refined ingredients
to cultivate "organic" crops; only mined minerals can be used.
Surprisingly, this precludes organic growers from using
pharmaceutical or food grade ingredients to formulate fertilizers.
This could be a safety risk, but at least mined minerals will break
down in the soil.
Hydroponic growers, on the other hand, must use refined minerals
because mined minerals dissolve poorly in solutions. As a
consequence, it is not currently practical to formulate a top-quality
"organic" fertilizer, which will work well for hydroponic crop
production, and meet U.S. standards. The Flora nutrients
developed at General Hydroponics, for example, currently meet the
EEC standards for the mineral component of the "mineral-organic"
category, but cannot be used in the United States to grow certified
"organic" produce.
A review of the standards for defining "organic" will soon be
completed by federal regulators in the U.S. Department of
Agriculture. There is some possibility that the USDA way
eventually consider the European standards, opening the door for
organic growers to use purified mineral nutrients and hydroponic
growers to cultivate organically certified produce. It is not
surprising that European regulations favor policies that promote
the cultivation of produce with superior quality and flavor.
Generally European consumers are accustomed to higher quality
foods and will not purchase flavorless produce. The myth that only
certified organically grown produce is of good quality, nutrition
and flavor has been clearly dispelled by the many successes of
hydroponic producers worldwide, but remains predominant in
public perception. This trend will most likely continue; the only
question is whether the United States will be a leader, or a
follower.
Lawrence Brooke is the president and founder of Sebastopol,
California based General Hydroponics, Inc.
Author's note: I�ve tried to describe a few of the problems
hydroponic growers face when trying to compete with "organic"
produce. I don't wish to leave readers with the impression that
there's anything wrong with organic, or that hydroponic produce is
always better. It can go either way depending upon the skill and
ethics of the farmer.
The main issue is for growers and consumers to understand that
"organic" is a matter of definitions. Sometimes the organic produce
is the best tasting and most nutritious available in the marketplace;
other times the hydroponic produce is better. In the final analysis,
organic farming has a low environmental impact on the Earth, and
this is an important point from a philosophical view. Until
hydroponic growers can find a way to recycle used water, media
and nutrients, the hydroponic method will not be equal to
"organic" in these terms. On the other hand, if a consumer is
comparing the flavor and nutrition quality of a crop, both
hydroponic and organic methods are excellent.

You can always go to the search bar and look up urine right here. As for
" I could easily just Pee on your face and call your face "certified organic" like you think all that's necessary."

Haaahaha, but yes I'm organic in the end, the final word in organic fertilizer is it just have to past thru the gut of an animal. But you knew that right.

You guys ruined my thread

Sorry I missed this point, but there was just no reason to read the junk, and I hadn't scrolled all the way to the bottom of the post.

"the final word in organic fertilizer is it just have to past thru the gut of an animal. But you knew that right"
A piece of plastic can pass through the gut of an animal, as most of us that have had dogs know because they will eat everything. But that dosen't make that piece of plastic organic once he poops it out. That would make anything that can be put in the mouth organic, simply because it eventually makes it to the other end. By your definition a plants leaves are not organic until a "animal" puts it in their mouth to digest it (passing it through their gut). So no, the Scientific (and real) definition is that "Organic" means "Carbon Based." That's not debatable, that's the real and true definition. As well as a simple FACT.

ironious I'm sorry about your thread it wasn't my intention to ruin it or your time on the web.

ironious
I'm 43 years old. I'm old enough know right from wrong, and I will never hurt or treat anyone wrong that dosen't treat others wrong first. I'm also old enough to know the difference between a fable and reality, and at my age I'm not interested in bedtime story's. I'm also old enough to know that running and hiding under the table with your tail between your legs is wrong, and I don't practice hiding. I'm a simple man that dosen't hide when I see a wrong being done.

There are thousands of people that read these threads every day (not just you). Most of those people aren't even registered on the forum. Most of those people are either just starting out in hydroponics, or thinking about trying it. When they are that new to hydroponics, they'll tend to believe anything they read posted in a forum. Thinking that those people must know what their doing, rather than thinking about common sense. When these gullible new growers read the untrue and unsubstantiated clams that georgeiii continually spouts out, they may just believe in the fables before their common sense kicks in. That's the exact type of people that georgeiii is looking for.

Now, it's a free world, and georgeiii has the right to speak. Even if all he tells is his old tired fables that have no shred of truth to them. Simply repeating the same old thing over and over dosen't make it true. Now if you think about someone other than yourself, and think for a minute about all of those unsuspecting people that read the threads. It's simply wouldn't be fair to them to let them believe all the untrue and unsubstantiated claims georgeiii spits out. In fact, it would simply be nothing but wrong to do so, and NOT say anything when you know it's not true, and just let the people go on believing in the bedtime story's. Let them spend all their money, as well as waist their time trying it. Not to mention all the hart ache they will go through as their plants suffer. They may even give up on hydroponics all together because of it.

How can any self respecting person sit back and let so many people suffer, when they can save them a lot of hart ache by seeking up. georgeiii has a right to tell his fables, and I have a right to tell the other side of the coin. Glad you can look at yourself in the mirror and live with knowing you don't care about helping others. I cant. It dosen't matter weather it's helping a lost dog, helping survivors of a car accident that just happened rather than driving by because You don't want to be bothered, or pointing out things that will cause people problems in a forum. If you want to piss on a vitamin and call it macaroni, be my guest! Don't let me stop you. Have at it, let us all know how it works out for you.

P.S.
So I'm sorry if your thread got caught in the middle, but I cant just sit back and let people be wronged. As far as your topic, I have this for you. I'll post the link anyway, but the website seems to be going through some updating of their article archive, and I just get a 404 error message. I save good articles in text files, so I have the complete article on my computer. I'll just post some quotes for now, and if you want I'll post the entire thing in full. It's written by Dr. Lynette Morgan who is a well respected hydroponics researcher.

Hydroponic Humates
by Dr. Lynette Morgan 2001-07-01
http://www.maximumyield.com/article_sh_db.php?articleID=90&submit=Go

""However, other soil-based substances are amounts, and therefore don't find their way naturally into most hydroponic systems. One example of this are the humic and humic-derived acids which occur widely in mineral soils, peats and some natural waters. Humic acids are water soluble organic acids derived from organic matter which has decomposed fully, though not all organic humus contains useful humic acids.

All humic acids contain carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen with small amounts of sulfur and phosphorus, and are from a large family of organic compounds which have similar characteristics. They are categorised more on the process by which they are extracted and isolated rather than by their chemical structure. The organic matter in soil is divided into that which is undecomposed matter and that which is fully decomposed, and termed 'humus'. This humus can be further divided into soluble humic acids and insoluble 'humin'. The soluble humic acids have three major divisions 'humic acid', 'ulmic acid' (also called hymatomelanic acid) and 'fulvic acid'. Fulvic acid is a short chain molecule which is yellow in colour and soluble. In horticulture it is the humic, and particularly the fulvic acids which are most reactive and effective in stimulating plant growth.""

""In the early 1970s the effect of humic preparations on root formation in cuttings was examined and this revealed that humic and fulvic acid possess properties that are extremely beneficial to initiation and growth of roots on geranium cuttings. Early on, it was shown that root formation of bean seedlings was stimulated and maximised by applications of fulvic acid solutions. In fact, one of the most widely accepted affects of humic acid application on root systems is the promotion of root development. In hydroponic tomato plants, humic acid application resulted in higher root fresh and dry weights and higher levels of certain mineral elements in the shoots and roots (iron content was especially pronounced) than those plants grown in solutions with no humic acid addition.""

""Conclusion

There are a number of ways in which the addition of fulvic acid to an organic based nutrient could enhance nutrient uptake and plant growth. The organic nutrient used was not 'fully mineralised' and would have required a certain degree of mineral conversion in the media before many of the nutrients became available for crop growth. Humic acids are known to not only promote microbial growth and development, but to also assist with the conversions of a number of elements into the plant available form, they also participate in the decomposition of rocks and minerals in the soil - so their effect on breaking down organic and inorganic substances is likely to be important in this experiment. The role of fulvic acid as a natural chelation agents is also likely to be vital in this type of system where no synthetic chelates can be added. Iron in particular, we would usually supply as a chelated compound, in this system, fulvic acid chelation of micro nutrients such as iron and manganese may be assisting with the availability of these minerals which are naturally low in many organic nutrient sources.

Apart from the effects on the nutrient and uptake of minerals, the addition of fulvic acid is also likely to have had a stimulatory effect on plant growth - as this has been proven in systems using inorganic nutrient sources. Humic and fulvic acids have been widely proven to increase the rate of development and length of root systems and to accelerate cell division - this effect would also have been contributing to the increase in foliage and bean yield obtained from this trial.

While the addition of humic and fulvic acids to both soil and soilless systems has in the past proved to be beneficial to crop growth and development , it also appears to have considerable advantages to 'organic hydroponic' systems where a complex range of micro organisms, organic compounds and substances need to co-exist for the system to be successful.""

"So I'm sorry if your thread got caught in the middle, but I cant just sit back and let people be wronged"

People are being wronged?

By who? All the information I give is free. Along with picture so others can see how things progress with my system. I show proof of everything. Homie has yet to post any picture, any thoughts of his own but clips and pastes others work.
Let me remind everyone why I came on here. Because of the distaster that was Katrina. I developed the Dark Garden method for those who need help. I've never said different or asked anyone for anything in return. Well maybe help in find Regina because I owe that woman an apology that will never be enough but that's it. I have more than I need and always help others even before they ask. If you follow homies spamming,... well let's just leave him for entertainment. I see us as a nation that's in trouble. I think my methods will help the planet and our nation. That's not a brag that's my God given talent and I feel blessed to be able too. These methods will help others who have nothing but trash to work with and make them profitable and able to feed themselves in six months. I can show people how to grow their own bio-fuel and home heating oil in three years time. With nothing more than a simple ajustment to the fuel injecters in their cars or furnaces. Compare that to hydrogen cars their bragging about. Wow that's alot of words. So keep spamming me all you like homie to me your just entainment

HH,
Why are you so concerned with being able to directly upload pictures to this site vs just linking an image.
I'd always much rather link to a host site, especially on gardenweb. That way, If I see fit to remove it, all I have to do is remove or alter the origkeal linked image.

also wanted to point out there are other reasons to favor hosted images; If you write your text as images and host them, people can't cut and paste your comments. plus, you can change what you've written if someone tries to quote you and says something like "see above" or you can remove your comments all together. Now this can be done for more nefarious reasons but, on a forum such as this, its not an all together bad idea to have a way to edit your posts.

Hey ironious;
I believe after reading a bit of one of HH's posts that the difference in humic acid and fulvic acid is on a molecular level. the fulvic's being more reactive and effective.

HH quoted:
"The soluble humic acids have three major divisions 'humic acid', 'ulmic acid' (also called hymatomelanic acid) and 'fulvic acid'. Fulvic acid is a short chain molecule which is yellow in colour and soluble. In horticulture it is the humic, and particularly the fulvic acids which are most reactive and effective in stimulating plant growth."

go to your profile page and uncheck "allow other members to contact you through forms on our site" or something worded like that. It's the first clickable box on the page.

Grizzman and Homehydro are both very knowledgable about hydroponics.

Home hydro was trying to make a point...

I wanted to share a thought I had about fulvic acid because it shows one of the principle differences between animal life and plant life. If I cut off a finger and then eat that finger I won�t grow another finger in the same spot or anywhere else on my body. But plants do this all the time. Their basically shedding their body parts, sitting in their old body parts and using them to regrow them selves. Every fall a tree drops it�s leaves around itself and it�s roots die back. Yet in Spring they reabsorb those parts back into themselves and grow those same parts back. Usually in the same spots they were lost from the year before. This is a part of my understanding of the difference between rot and decay. With rot it�s a break down of the material to it�s basic parts using water but with decay it�s removing the water from the material leaving it other wise intact. Ready for reuse next season. Or in a Sustainable system as in Nature the Humus acid causes decay of the old roots and the fulvic acid stimulates regrowth. Now I can�t prove this (I�ll say that right away) but it follows in with a problem I have with one of my trees that was growing in medium. I have a Lemon tree that�s seven feet tall. I knew I should have pruned it before switching it to the Sustainable Hydroponic system. But it really was such a beautiful tree I didn�t want to prune it . The water in the Hydro-Bucket turned a very dark brown. The water from the insert was a dark yellowish. Usually I see new roots showing in a month but it�s been more than two months with no roots. My poor tree looks terrible, it�s lost some leaves and branch tips have curled but it�s still alive. I think now it�s recovering. If in the future if it shows new roots and the water color clears I have my answer. An answer that would once again change the way we think about development of roots. Or a way to make your own rooting hormones.

"If in the future if it shows new roots and the water color clears I have my answer. An answer that would once again change the way we think about development of roots. Or a way to make your own rooting hormones.

No, NOT a scientific answer, or anything based in reality whatsoever. Just another crackpot theory you will no doubt decide and try to pass on as a fact all by yourself. And without doing any real research or controlled study's to eliminate all the variables. Much less studding the chemical compound/s, and doing plant tissue testing that would be needed to make any claims. But that's a perfect example of your minds process. Get a result, come to the conclusion it's because of anything, then call it a undisputed fact. Even though there is no scientific data whatsoever to back up the crackpot theories. No, make any conclusions you want, it wont change anyone's thinking. Well not in the scientific community (reality), where they rely on real data and study's to make real verifiable conclusions. Perhaps you can convince some grade school kids, that is until they make it to science class and learn reality.

P.S.
Are you driving around in your Styrofoam car yet? How many miles do you get per 8x4 Styrofoam sheet? I'm still waiting to hear who is manufacturing them. Is it going to be Toyota, Honda, ford, or Chevy??? After all, that was going to change the way we think about cars... Or did the men in black come and take your Styrofoam car away???

Poor homie, so scared of something new but don't worry I'm sure your already copying and pasting trying to figure out some way of posting it yourself. But the proof is in the garden. That's what people who really do things find things out. For those who are interested I noticed something and thought it would be a point of discussion but you can see from homies rant he fears such things. This is phenology over the seasons. All it takes is an open mind with an open eye. It's called experience. Check out Sustainable Hydroponicsyou can see the results. Want a good look at homie? Check out the thread "Up loading pictures". Why homie doesn't share pictures or information ( other than what somebody else has posted) and he'is here for the money on a free site. What a loon.

Humic acid is a principal component of humic substances, which are the major organic constituents of soil (humus), peat, coal, many upland streams, dystrophic lakes, and ocean water.
It is produced by biodegradation of dead organic matter. It is not a single acid; rather, it is a complex mixture of many different acids containing carboxyl and phenolate groups so that the mixture behaves functionally as a dibasic acid or, occasionally, as a tribasic acid. Humic acids can form complexes with ions that are commonly found in the environment creating humic colloids. Humic and fulvic acids (fulvic acids are humic acids of lower molecular weight and higher oxygen content than other humic acids)are commonly used as a soil supplement in agriculture, and less commonly as a human nutritional supplement. As a nutrition supplement, free form (unreacted)
Fulvic acid is found in a liquid form along with mineral colloids。 Fulvic acids are poly-electrolytes and are unique colloids that diffuse easily through membranes whereas all other colloids do not. Fulvic acid supplements consisting of a neutral pH are very weak fulvic compounds and do not deliver the benefits of free form fulvic acid (fulvic acid that remains unreacted with other substances or unboundto minerals) that exhibits a much higher concentration and lower pH[citation needed]. Fulvic acid branded as “ionic” is not free form fulvic acid, more accurately they are fulvic compounds or fulvate salts. According to the International Humic Substances Society all fulvic acids are colloids.
Formation and description
Humic substances are formed by the microbial degradation of dead plant matter, such as lignin. They are very resistant to further biodegradation. The precise properties and structure of a given sample depend on the water or soil source and the specific conditions of extraction. Nevertheless, the average properties of humic substances from different sources are remarkably similar.
Humic substances in soils and sediments can be divided into three main fractions: humic acids, fulvic acids, and humin. The humic and fulvic acids are extracted as a colloidal sol from soil and other solid phase sources into a strongly basic aqueous solution of sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide. Humic acids are precipitated from this solution by adjusting the pH to 1 with hydrochloric acid, leaving the fulvic acids in solution. This is the operational distinction between humic and fulvic acids. Humin is insoluble in dilute alkali. The alcohol-soluble portion of the humic fraction is, in general, named ulmic acid. Gray humic acids (GHA) are soluble in low-ionic-strength alkaline media; brown humic acids (BHA) are soluble in alkaline conditions independent of ionic strength; and fulvic acids (FA) are soluble independent of pH and I.
Chromatography and liquid-liquid extraction can be used to separate the components that make up a humic substance. Substances identified include mono-, di-, and tri-hydroxy acids, fatty acids, dicarboxylic acids, linear alcohols, phenolic acids, and terpenoids.
Chemical characteristics of humic substances
Example of a typical humic acid, having a variety of components including quinone, phenol, catechol and sugar moieties
A typical humic substance is a mixture of many molecules, some of which are based on a motif of aromatic nuclei with phenolic and carboxylic substituents, linked together; the illustration shows a typical structure. The functional groups that contribute most to surface charge and reactivity of humic substances are phenolic and carboxylic groups. Humic acids behave as mixtures of dibasic acids, with a pK1 value around 4 for protonation of carboxyl groups and around 8 for protonation of phenolate groups. There is considerable overall similarities among individual humic acids.[4] For this reason, measured pK values for a given sample are average values relating to the constituent species. The other important characteristic is charge density. The molecules may form a supramolecular structure held together by non-covalent forces, such as Van der Waals force, π-π, and CH-π bonds.
The presence of carboxylate and phenolate groups gives the humic acids the ability to form complexes with ions such as Mg2+, Ca2+, Fe2+ and Fe3+. Many humic acids have two or more of these groups arranged so as to enable the formation of chelate complexes.[6] The formation of (chelate) complexes is an important aspect of the biological role of humic acids in regulating bioavailability of metal ions.

Here is a link that might be useful: Saint Humic Acid