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Hydro in high temps

Posted by justinkauai none (My Page) on
Mon, Mar 21, 11 at 21:04

Hi

I am trying to get my hydro going here in hawaii.

The indoor room temps go from 77-84 and its about to be summer time so i expect it to get even hotter.

I have had limited success so far. Basically I get tons of root growth when everything is inline ph at 5.8 water temps 65C using frozen water bottles and DWC 5 gal buckets.

My problem is around the 5th day or so the ph will spike up overnight to 7. Once this happens i see nutrient defiencies in the leaves and growth stops.

I think this might be due to me missing putting a frozen water bottle in but im not completely sure since pytheium would drop ph.

I see tons of pics of ppl doing hydro outside in high temps...

How do they do this?

I feel like i am almost there if i can just eliminate these sudden abrubt spikes I think i would be set.

I have tried hygrozyme but end up with a tank full of foam real quick. And as soon as the foam comes the ph spikes.

The hydro store recomended dutch masters zone but i have yet to try.

Is there a easier way? i am tired of having to watch these plants all day switching water bottles up to 3 times per day?

With fresh nutes i am golden and the ph rarely moves. maybe .2 in a day or so.

help!!!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Hydro in high temps

65C = Sixty Five Degrees Celsius? Isn't that something like 149 Degrees Fahrenheit? Does Hawaii get that hot? You must mean Fahrenheit, But then what are you growing that requires 65 degree F. soil (root zone) temps? You have me confused as to why you are using frozen water bottles. My Hawaiian Plumaria(non-hydro)do quite well here in Virginia, I simply move the planters out onto the deck after chance of last frost, although they don't do much until day temps rise above 75-85 Deg(F). Tomatoes & Peppers generally like temps above 70F. I would install an aquarium heater in my reservoir if my temps were continuously dropping below 75F. With many plants heat is not an issue until day temps approach or exceed 100 degrees Fahrenheit with consistency. In climates where this is an issue you would cool the reservoir. Many plants have specific temp and/or day length requirements which determine when they will germinate, grow, bloom, set blossoms, produce fruit etc. This gives growing hydroponically a big advantage but we need to know what you are growing to determine these values.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

68-72 Fahrenheit is the optimum root zone,reservoir temp for almost every plant. 65-75 Fahrenheit is also considered a good range. Lower temps are not real problematic, just basically stunted growth, unless real cold. Then I have seen halted plant growth over a 3 month period, with reservoir temps in the mid 40's and lower. But temps above 75 Fahrenheit can cause more visible problems like, wilting, flower drop, fruit damage etc.. Most likely not real noticeable until above 80 Fahrenheit, and very noticeable above 85-90 Fahrenheit (root zone/reservoir temp, not air temp).

Also temps above 75 Fahrenheit provide better conditions for pathogens and fungi to grow and breed in the nutrient reservoir, at the same time suppress the beneficial microbes and fungi that keep them at bay. That can cause a whole variety of diseases. Visible signs of heat stress, have other environmental factors as well. It's not cut and dry to say your plants will wilt if the water temp is 80 degrees. Air temp, humidity, plant nutrition, direct sunlight or shade, overall plant health (pest infestations and/or disease) etc. etc. etc. all affect a plants ability to deal with stress.

Another side effect of higher water temps is a lack of dissolved oxygen in the water. The higher the water temp, the less oxygen molecules it can hold on to. Carbon and oxygen are used by the plant in the manufacturing of carbohydrates.

"Carbohydrates made during photosynthesis are of value to the plant when they are converted into energy. This energy is used in the process of building new tissues.

PHYSIOLOGY: PLANT GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT (qoute taken from section titled "RESPIRATION")

"Carbon and oxygen are used in the manufacture of carbohydrates" (quote taken from the 5'th paragraph down in the section titled "Dark Reaction")


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RE: Hydro in high temps

have a look at this chart:


You'll notice that at pH of 7 nothing is completely locked out. So you're pH spiking to 7 is not probably not causing the deficiencies you're seeing or stunted growth. It's likely related, but not the cause.
How much time passes from the pH spike before you notice the deficiency?
What are you growing?
Is your nutrient solution cloudy when the pH spikes?
If you're having lots of root growth but not much vegetative growth, it seems you're lacking or losing nitrogen. (this could also cause your pH to rise)
I don't do anything to my water and it feels like bathwater at the end of the day and i don't have too many problems. (at least not related to that) Here, in the summer, daytime temps range, generally, from about 85°-95°F with nights in the mid to upper 70's.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Hi justinkauai,

I am growing in subtropical climate (outdoors only) all year long. How do I do that?

Well, firstly I go seasonal - I grow the plants that grow best and are hardiest during each season. Farmers all around the world have done so since ages, before artificial cooling and air temperature control was even considered.

From my understanding frozen water bottles are perhaps a smart solution to save plants from a sudden heat wave or for any short period - but it doesn't look like a permanent or sustainable method to me. I have not even considered it, simply because it only is appropriate with a small amount of nutrients anyway.

There are several other options to cooling nutrients, ranging from aquarium chillers to underground reservoirs and tanks. An individual solution has to be chosen according to your budget, means and skill set. Also, in some cases just cooling nutrients may not be good enough. Extreme air temperatures (to low or high humidity) or even only too high night air temps may lead from lack of flowering, stress to tissue damage of plants - even though the nutrient temperatures are in fact optimal.

Anyway, the optimal nutrient temperatures commonly accepted as- and said to be around 24 degree C or 76 degree F are actually based upon one single statement that had been made a LONG time ago about growing lettuce in higher temps than recommended. Pathogen development under higher nutrient temperatures is true, but somehow overrated as well, as the only real threat we need to worry about is pythium (leading to root rot). If your nutrient solution is "clean", there is no promotion of pathogens at slightly higher temps. And if your solution does not contain (is not inoculated with) pro-biotic or beneficial bacteria, higher temps obviously do not mater either. Hence, this issue is clearly circumstantial. From my experience, up to 28 degree C are safe as long as the raise in temperatures isn't abrupt. Thus, under tropical conditions, you just need to lower the nutrient temperature by a few degree Celsius. Btw: this part is still discussed and there are even several studies that suggest better grow rates at higher temps with more effective (not higher) oxygen replenishment.

The pH issue again, is more serious and it simply has to be controlled no matter how. Unfortunately, the chart in the previous post doesn't show the data for soil less culture, but the one of soil and "dirt" instead which is quite a different Kettle of Fish. With Hydroponics, iron becomes clearly deficient @ (even below) pH 7 and will typically show signs of yellowing of younger leaves. Unless, it is provided by Fe- DTPA or EDTA and DTPA (in case of GH nutrients for example). In the later case, Fe is more stable and thus available until and above pH 7.

The pH raise to 7 is st probably caused by decrease of a particular nutrient uptake that puts the pH out of balance. If for example the Nitrogen is provided by both ammoniacal Nitrogen and Nitrate, the ammoniacal part may nitrify although the Nitrate isn't taken up. This lowers the pH in the root zone first - but as soon as the (normally little) percentage is exhausted and depleted, this effect will not take place any longer and a raise of the pH will typically follow. Phosphorus content versus Ca matters as well. Under bad growing conditions P (acidic) may still be taken up rapidly by plants, while all the (basic) Ca, which is taken up very slowly anyway, remains in the solution TOGETHER with most other neutral components. With increasing pH, P and Ca also tend to "take each other out" mutually an precipitate.

Plant uptake and nutrient balance is very complex and the reason may even be diametrically opposed, but in his case. it is very likely that (heat) stressed plants have a very different uptake and this "unexpectedly" puts the nutrient out of balance, which stresses the plants even more, leading to a vicious cycle and circle.

1. Improve general conditions, avoid any plant stress and prevent less growth/uptake.
2. Control pH with pH down.
3. Leave out any additives, unless they are actually needed and making perfect sense (a simple recommendation from whom ever, without a plausible and credible explanation is not good enough!)
4.A Top off regularly (maybe even on a daily bases) with the missing amount of fresh nutrient, to (try to) extend the more darned 5th day.
4.B Keep track and control your nutrient concentration as well, adjust EC if necessary. Even if it raises over the days, top off with a weaker solution instead of water and watch the evolution of pH with such strategy.
5. With increasing heat, increase Potassium ratio versus N (not P), as this promotes evapo-transpiration. Or, use a nutrient formula (product) with a higher K ratio or that allows you to increase K.

Good luck with getting almost there a.s.a.p! ;-)

Cheers,
Jean-Luc


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RE: Hydro in high temps

In ground reservoirs will control nutrient temps. However not to many people are willing to break through the floor of their house to install a in-ground (geothermal energy) reservoir for their indoor gardens, or I would have mentioned it. The easiest way to adjust the temp of an indoor reservoir is simply by heating or cooling the room temperature (ambient air temp), and the larger the volume of water, the slower it will warm up. Also moving it away from heat sources like the lights, will help keep it from warming up in the first place.

From the ones that I've seen, fish tank chillers are way to expensive (hundreds of dollars), unless you can find a used on e-bay or something. Even so they generally only chill small volumes of water (their designed for fish tanks). So considering the high cost, and small volume of water it can handle, their just not cost effective for me to consider using.

P.S. I'm not sure how big the reservoir is, but it may not have enough volume of water/nutrient solution to buffer against pH swings, as well as nutrient balance issues.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

jean-luc interesting idea about the ph spikes.

i monitor my ppm and I dont see them drop substantially before the spikes.

any body growing with res temps in the 77-82 range???

summer is coming and im expecting room temps to reach the 84 mark.
is it just too hot for hydro


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RE: Hydro in high temps

I have had reservoir temps as high as 100 degrees Fahrenheit before. But wouldn't recommend it, that was just because I couldn't get them cooler. 77 to 82 isn't perfect, but probably wont be much problem. However I wouldn't want it to get higher than that.

My tomatoes did OK last summer with reservoir temps in the 80-84 degree range, and with air temps in the 110-120 range (the reservoir was in the ground). But they could have been healthier, and less stressed had the water temps been cooler. Plants can take more extreme temps if the root zone is kept cool. I live in the desert, grow outside, and see the results that water temps play first hand.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Hi again justinkauai,

>>i monitor my ppm and I dont see them drop substantially before the spikes.<<

In case of ammonium nitrification, there is barely transformation. And Phosphorus (although a so called Macro Nutrient) is normally only a fraction of the formula anyway, between around 30 and 60 ppm only. In both cases no substantial drop in nutrient strength (EC or ppm) needs to be observed to confirm such interaction.

PS: From my understanding and experience of growing in tropical climate, nutrient temperatures and air temperatures matter alike, although cooler nutrients may give you more play space in some cases. I see it more like: if nutrients temps raise to a certain level and above, you surely run into trouble. But cooler nutrient temps are no miracle cure and not the answer to every problem. And thus sometimes overrated. It actually depends on the kind and varieties you grow, air humidity, nutrient formula, oxygenation of root zone, etc. Any plants that are prone to BER or tip leaf burn (specific Toms and Lettuces varieties for instance), are more easily affected by too high air temperatures, although your nutrients are in the limits or even optimal. You can't apply any general role here and personal and/or selective observations of any third party are just what they are, - anecdotical statements of individuals. You have to try it at your own place, with your own setup, crop varieties and specific conditions anyways. ;-)

Cheers,

Jean-Luc


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RE: Hydro in high temps

"But cooler nutrient temps are no miracle cure and not the answer to every problem. And thus sometimes overrated.

I don't remember anyone ever saying that cooler nutrient temps are a miracle cure. I know I haven't ever said, or thought any such thing myself. Nutrient temps are just one part to plant health and/or stress. But ignoring it doesn't make it go away either (like some individuals would like to believe). If you want to have healthy productive plants, would it be wise to just ignore potential sources of plant stress? Not on my planet. The plants wont be ignoring it either, any more than leaving your kids in a hot car, and just telling them to think cool thoughts would work well.

If the water temps are in the upper 80's and even close to 90, there isn't any "miracle cure" to fix the problems the high water temps will cause either. By reducing stress from one area like changing air temp, humidity, light, nutrient formula, oxygenation of root zone etc. to more favorable conditions, just helps compensate for the stress of the high water temperature. If stress levels are low in other areas, the plants will be able to better cope with the areas you cant fix. But if stress levels are high in other areas also, you'll see visible singes of problems earlier. Cooler water temps will help compensate for plant stress in other areas like air temp, humidity, light, nutrient formula, oxygenation of root zone etc.. It's all about reducing stress, that's done by providing plants with more favorable growing conditions (in all areas). Overrated? Not on my planet (earth).

Deming water temperature control as sometimes overrated, is purely just selective observation from a third party (a double standard). That's just exactly what it is, just an anecdotal statement from a individual, based on their own personal and/or selective observations.

Anecdotal
"(1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy" Anything luches (aka. jean-luc) disagrees with he considers hearsay and untrustworthy.

"(2) Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence. Anything luches (aka. jean-luc) disagrees with he considers a conclusion generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence.

That's a double standard if ever I herd one. To one who does not want to believe, everything that's not their 'selective observation," is just "selective observation" and just an anecdotal statement from third party individuals. That's called a superiority complex (I call it a God complex in his case).

But I do agree, try growing at your own place, with your own setup, your own crops, and specific conditions. Then you will have your own anecdotal third party, selective observations too.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

In some cases, one doesn't need to call in a behaviorist, - but everyone can easily grasp what party is telling a story and what party is trying to sell a story.

Hh, if you take my explanations out of the original context (in the one I used them originally) and put them in another, and/or paraphrase them wrongly eventually, that is YOUR problem. It's OK to misinterpret occasionally, (it happens to everyone all the time, often without knowing) but it's on no account whatever OK, to do so intentionally and use such fallacies for argumentation purposes. And you certainly do fall beyond the pale, if trying to discredit others systematically by the use of such purely homemade misinterpretations/fallacies. No matter what the motive is! As I can see clearly and observe repeatedly, either you have no clue what I am saying all along, - OR you actually do, but refuse to comprehend what I mean - and twist and bend it beyond recognizability instead.

Please understand that you will not look nor get any smarter, if trying to jealously devaluate by twisting what others are trying to contribute. And if you will actually succeed in discrediting others, - or just end up a fool who only wants to look smart instead, actually remains in the eyes of the beholders.

To make it as clear as I can for the sake of communication, what I meant is - an.ec.dot.i.cal (-ĭ-kəl)
Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes. Yes there is a second meaning of an.ec.dot.i.cal: 2. based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: "There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems" (C. Claiborne Ray).

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/anecdotal#ixzz1HiAjqvxp

I used the term quite a bit as a play on words in this case...
And of course that everyone is equally concerned. And yet, anecdotical means to me that an information resulting from a single person's observation (selective by it's nature anyway) has no general nor universal validity in the first place. And it certainly applies to EVERYONE's observations without exception. Actually, any reasonably intelligent person should be aware of the fact that their own observations and conclusions, although they may have great value for themselves, will only have limited validity in a more general or universal sense, until getting consensus and confirmation. Btw: Any intelligent person should also make the difference between well-intended and constructive criticism, versus de trop, biased and gratuitous enviousness in return. ;-)

Either if you suffer from an inferiority- or from a superiority complex - both meanings are quite unambiguous. Also without ambiguity for the few who simply are satisfied and happy with what- and who they really are ;-)

Cheers to all and have a nice day.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Justinkauai;
Anybody growing with res temps in the 77-82 range?
My indoor setups generally run between 69.2 and 79.4 depending on ambient temps and how long the Us foggers and lights have been on. This is in an unheated, poorly insulated basement room (50% under ground) that rarely sees ambient temps above 70 but drops as low as 45 during the winter. You might say my indoor environment is somewhat the opposite of Homehydro's outdoor climate. I use my indoor setups primarily for cloning and bringing plants(15 varietys of tomatoes and peppers)to maturity before transplanting outdoors in my soil gardens which are a climate similar to Grizzman's.
In my experience, young tomato seedlings are more likely to show symptoms of phosphorus deficiency,(purple stems,and leaf undersides)at low temps. Tomato blossom set seems to slow down at high temps. In my observations overall plant growth slows at lower temps, and accelerates at higher temps. But higher temps also speed the growth of harmful bacteria/fungi.
I hope this information is useful, and not contradictory to anyone Else's, or taken as divisive rhetoric in any way.
Homehydro: Thanks for the link, I always have difficulty explaining and understanding why plants need "dark time".
Good Luck,
~Ken~


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RE: Hydro in high temps

"everyone can easily grasp what party is telling a story and what party is trying to sell a story. "

I'm not sure what it is your selling, but I'm not buying it.

"Hh, if you take my explanations out of the original context (in the one I used them originally) and put them in another, and/or paraphrase them wrongly eventually, that is YOUR problem. It's OK to misinterpret occasionally, (it happens to everyone all the time, often without knowing) but it's on no account whatever OK, to do so intentionally and use such fallacies for argumentation purposes."

There your statements, and there is no misinterpretation. You just want to try and make it sound as if that's the case. But again I'm not buying it. If there's any misinterpretation, it's on your end. But your to pompous and egotistical to admit it. You even said your rarely if ever wrong.

"And you certainly do fall beyond the pale, if trying to discredit others systematically by the use of such purely homemade misinterpretations/fallacies. No matter what the motive is!"

Any misinterpretations/fallacies are coming from you, no matter what the motive is! you just think you can say anything you want, and because you say it that makes it a fact. And if anyone disagrees, they are just a misinformed, uneducated third parties with only selective observations. As if your observations are somehow not selective. You just think you are so special that your brand of selective observations are better than everyone else. That's the biggest load of cow manure, coming from a huge pompous, egotistical, self absorbed dill weed I ever herd. I don't remember any vote taking place to make you GOD, but you sure seem to feel that's what you are. I won't be praying to you (you still haven't figured that out yet).

"As I can see clearly and observe repeatedly, either you have no clue what I am saying all along, - OR you actually do, but refuse to comprehend what I mean - and twist and bend it beyond recognizability instead.

I cant help it if your not able to make yourself clear. If you want to claim that I just don't understand you, that just isn't my fault. But I highly doubt that is the case. That was your claim the very first time I conversed with you, I even apologizes over and over, but you wouldn't accept an apology from me (even for a simple misunderstanding that shouldn't need an apology). Fact is there was no misunderstanding, I just asked some questions so I can make sure I understood correctly. But you just accused me of questioning your experience, and were just down right rude back to me. And you have not changed a bit sense then.

You just want people to agree with you, and if they don't your egotistical, pompous attitude comes out, and you just demean and belittle them. You just expect them to sit back take it like you were GOD, and they have no choice. When you begin talking down to people and belittling them, I will give it right back at you. And you just want to cry oh woe is me about it. Cry, cry, cry me a river....

"Please understand that you will not look nor get any smarter, if trying to jealously devaluate by twisting what others are trying to contribute."

You clearly don't understand me, or where I'm coming from at all. But fortunately for me, I don't care if you do or don't. Your the one with the need to look smarter than everyone else. I like to engage in back and forth conversations, sharing thoughts. You just want to post your selective observations, and don't want anyone to question anything, or to disagree with you (so you can look smart).

One would need to care what the other person thinks or has to become jealous of anything. I couldn't care less if you fell off the face of the earth, and I don't want anything you have. So there's just nothing to become even remotely jealous of you for. Again you are the one that needs my validation, thus you must care what I think about you. I'm not sure why, but I don't care either. So that works out just fine.

"To make it as clear as I can for the sake of communication, what I meant is - an.ec.dot.i.cal (-ĭ-kəl)"

How is that rederick supposed to make anything clear?

"based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis:"

The problem is you think just because you disagree with someone, what they say must not be based on any scientific analysis. But with your double standard you think you are the creditable scientist that decides what scientific analysis is valid. Just like me, your just a person in a forum, and you don't make the scientific analysis. That's just YOUR SELECTIVE OBSERVATIONS, and not valid scientific analysis. But in your egotistical mind, you cant tell the difference between the two when it comes to you. Your experiences are nothing more than selective observations to other people. And you want just to belittle them if they disagree, and/or have different experiences.

"Actually, any reasonably intelligent person should be aware of the fact that their own observations and conclusions, although they may have great value for themselves, will only have limited validity in a more general or universal sense, until getting consensus and confirmation. Btw: Any intelligent person should also make the difference between well-intended and constructive criticism, versus de trop, biased and gratuitous enviousness in return. ;-)

Again here you lower yourself to belittling others. Taking cracks at other peoples intelligence if they don't agree with you, and saying/suggesting their not intelligent unless they happen to agree with you. You just don't want anyone to share their experiences unless you agree with what they have to say, and their observations. Nobody here is claiming their observations are a complete and valid case study's (you are the only un-intelligent person that doesn't know that). Their just sharing there experiences in hopes of helping others. That is what a forum is for. Your the only one expecting people to consider your experiences as complete and valid case study's.

"Btw: Any intelligent person should also make the difference between well-intended and constructive criticism, versus de trop, biased and gratuitous enviousness in return.

Again with the crack at other peoples intelligence. That's not something I consider a well-intended and constructive criticism. So you are calling me unintelligent, you expect respect in return when you make cracks at other peoples expense. Fact is most of the stuff you spit out is NOT well-intended and constructive. If that's how you mean it, your doing a lousy job of trying (extremely lousy).

"Either if you suffer from an inferiority- or from a superiority complex - both meanings are quite unambiguous."

Are you asking me to be more clear in what I mean by superiority complex? It's not unambiguous to me.

Superiority complex--refers to an exaggerated feeling of being superior to others

"Also without ambiguity for the few who simply are satisfied and happy with what- and who they really are"

You don't fool me for a second luches.

hardclay7a
Don't worry, you don't disrespect people, so you don't deserve to be disrespected back. Even though I live in the desert with high summer heat, I also grow during the winter. So I have also experienced low nutrient temps as well, nutrient temps as low as in the upper 30's, and low 40's (night time air temps can sometimes reach below freezing). Even though I cant blame all the stunted growth on low nutrient temps, I know it's a significant problem for me during winter.

And I completely agree that cold temps stunt growth, and growth speeds up as the water temps rise. However only to a point. You mention your nutrient temps range between 69.2 and 79.4. With air temps in the 60's and low 70's I wouldn't expect to see negative signs of warm nutrient solutions until it was into the mid 80's. 69-79 degrees I would consider a good range. 77-82 in summer heat I would still consider acceptable (not great, but acceptable), I just wouldn't want it to get much warmer than that for extended periods of time.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Well, I didn't read all of this stuff, but I did read a little. I see Jean-Luc is back. Not that you have any reason to listen to me, but I caution you on believing what is written in forums just because the individual comes off knowledgeable. Jean-Luc is very knowledgeable and I actually agree with more of what he says than I disagree with (I have problems with him on a personality basis, but that's another topic altogether), so take that as a word of caution concerning all posters.

Jean Luc said, "Anyway, the optimal nutrient temperatures commonly accepted as- and said to be around 24 degree C or 76 degree F are actually based upon one single statement that had been made a LONG time ago about growing lettuce in higher temps than recommended."

Untrue. The optimum is between 65 and 72 or so. The reason has nothing to do with a single statement. It has to do with one of the most beneficial reasons for hydroponics. Oxygen (which he alluded to). As the temps climb, the water starts to lose its ability to hold dissolved oxygen. Can you grow in higher temp water? Sure. Will you get maximum yield from it? Nope. Particularly from fruiting plants like tomatoes, peppers, etc. Oxygen is very important. He did mention one of the other reasons it's important. Pythium - it just doesn't like oxygen. In fact, that's why potted plants get it so bad. Lack of drainage leads to oxygen poor water that creates a great environment for root rot.

That being said, you might actually be able to overcome such things by use of particular systems. Systems that allow for more oxygen to the rootzone like aeroponics or a misting application where the roots hang in 100% humid air are probably less prone to water temp problems. I don't know for certain, though. So, I agree with Jean-Luc that it's circumstantial. I just don't agree with what appears to me to be his idea of circumstantial. If your roots hang in water, then the water temps definitely matter. They may not destroy your plants, but they may be the deciding factor in size of fruit, vegetation, and disease resistance. Personally, I want to maximize yield. Hydro is far too expensive to be satisfied with yields like dirt grown plants in my opinion.

I'm convinced that higher water temps lead to BER in tomatoes. That's based on a lot of reading and my own personal experiences over the last few years. I do some experimentation, but it's admittedly not worthy of being called truly scientific. I have found that a) I only experience BER when the nutrient level temps remain above 80F, b) it is worse with romas (biomass related, maybe?), c) peppers stop producing if water temps remain that high and the fruits that have started don't get very large compared to when the temps are quite a bit lower, d) if I keep the water temps lower despite air temps in the 90's I get much better tomato yields and larger peppers and eggplants. I use a drip system and an ebb and flow system.

Also, I generally agree with Jean-Luc's advice (1-5) at the end of his first post here.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Hey Joe,
I agree with everything you said about water temps, and is basically just what I have been saying all along. Though you were a bit more detailed. But I have always agreed that the optimal water temp is between 68F and 72F, though from what I have read 65F to 75F is also considered an optimal range. The way I see it, is there isn't really much difference between the two ranges, so either works for me. But ultimately I would shoot for about 70-72 if it was possible. And as I mentioned 77F-82F I would consider acceptable, not great but acceptable (especially in my heat), and I wouldn't want it to get higher than that if I could at all avoid it.

My problem with luches is his personality as well, I keep telling him that but he refuses to believe it. His personality also makes him think that what his idea of circumstantial is, is the only right one, and thus everyone needs to agree with him or he gets sarcastic and belittles them. But I don't care how knowledgeable someone might me, I'm not going to let them talk down to me, belittle me etc., and not do anything about it. I have absolutely no respect for such people, don't want anything from them (including any knowledge they may have), and again couldn't care less if they fell of the face of the earth.

The more he gives out, the more I'll give it right back to him, and see just how much he likes it. If nobody treats them back that way, they begin to think it's acceptable behavior. They need to learn how it feels, or they just continue to do it. He will never change (he's not smart enough to figure it out), but I wont let him disrespect me either. Other people may accept it, but I wont.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Have you both considered the reciprocalness that generally goes along with sympathies and animosities? LOL

But regardless of the reciprocalness, isn't it blindingly obvious that both of you, Jeff and Joe are no plaster saints either?! I don't need to know how many skeletons each of you has in their own cupboard, but there are certainly a few and you guys know it too well - unless you have managed to deceive yourselves completely since. Both of you ALSO are of the kind who have p.issed off a bunch of guys and gals on several occasions. Is it possible that you just look into a mirror when judging me? You guys are perhaps just trying to muss up a carbon-copy of your own personalities, right?

And with homehydro (alias GPSFrontier) it's either feast or famine anyway and he makes no prisoners either: for once best friends forever best friends no matter how. Hahahaha. Either he kneels before somebody (Daniel F.) which happens one in 100.000 times, or behaves like a pitiless and pedantic internal affairs Super Intendant. And with a pompous p.rick (even this expression is not his own but dates back to the time and the original location where I firstly pi.ssed him off) like me, he obviously gets in desperate straits. In fact it's not that much my personality, it's just old wounded vanity plus the envy I am provoking permanently in him. Is it my fault if you are always 1-2 steps behind with a lesson or another?

You do not act here, or tell anyone what needs to be told homehydro, - you merely REACT as the person YOU are. No matter how upset you get with someone's behavior and/or personality - the worst thing you can do, is become like them or even to top the bill! Either you have in fact been like me all along - or have become a copy-cat of what you have projected in me over these 2 years. What you are trying to defeat and expose so vehemently and obstinately, is actually your own dark side, isn't it!? Clearly, homehydro - you are no exception and thus like everyone. you actually are your worst enemy, - always. You don't need ME, to get upset or to feel like having the right to project your own frustration and misery on any host that seems to deserve it in your opinion, - or do you?! You have done so before and will do so with others, me falling off the face of the earth, (although I will not do so any soon) won't you!? It's always the others - there is no way you could be wrong! LOL

Indeed I have been pulling your leg and conning you on every single occasion, without you even remotely noticing anything. Why? Because you don't even read what others write, you already anticipate, twist and project what ever pops up in your mind while reading. You have absolutely no sense of humour - ZERO! A notorious quoter and intellectual contortionist like you has no kind anyway. This and many other traits are clearly showing how wrong you get every single thing, sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph, - meaning by meaning.

You even bought that appeal to pity I tried on you. In fact you didn't buy it, but p.issed all over it. Well done, as it was as fake as it can get - I'd die in pain before appealing for pity in front of someone like you or in a place like this. Not mature? - no it wasn't as it was faked - but what was your p.issing on it, - silly girl :-))

I mean give your opponent enough rope - and they will hang themselves eventually . But I haven't ever seen anyone like you, self-strangulating themselves with every foot of rope I gave them ;-)

Although Joe is much smarter than Homie and can easily make the difference between someone's message, or contributions, and their "personality", he still doesn't like me (or prefers Homie, which is nearly the same ) - he's still a BIT caught between two stools, when it comes to an "estimation of fortune".

But I must say that I appreciate and estimate your differentiation, Joe - actually a smart move. Also the fact that you try to protect homehydro although he 's WAY OFF the line (using- and apparently taking profit -of the hell of a double standard) , - at least you play fair with me! Thanks for that!

Anyway, personality and knowledge (information, contribution or even intel) are related somehow, and yet are two distinct things one can perfectly well see or appreciate separately without bothering too much about the other. Like nice people on the other hand can be liked for their character traits only and mustn't be extremely knowledgeable in the same time, to be appreciated. As cute girls do not necessarily need to have a PhD in theoretical physics, - as you can enjoy their cuteness and beauty, while ignoring their education or even bad manners at least for a little while, can't you?!? ;-)

No matter how, knowledge, facts and even lies remain WHAT they ARE, no matter who tells them! So why killing the messenger (even over and over again - even putting one more knife in his back when he (ironically) begs for mercy )? LOL

Why radically refusing to even hear someone out, or PRINCIPALLY ignoring the part that might be of use, - isn't that more than stupid?! And anyone who stubbornly doesn't want to make the difference here, doesn't even deserve their share and are obviously doomed to drag that leg behind themselves a while longer.

I bet, homehydro is in fact just lucky that you don't like me anyway Joe, - he also appears to have the potential and is mean enough to freeze me (or other personae non gratae) out anytime. He also scares lots of spammers away although sometimes applying a sweeping generalization. But there you can always email him and tell him to go slow in particular cases LOL: That's why you deal with him more kindly, and have more pity on him as he actually deserves it on occasion. He is also quite a pain in (not only in your or my) the caboose, but as you have to choose the lesser of the two evils, you (understandably) react rather opportunistically. ;-)

As you said the other day Joe: "before, the biggest problem was "that guy" who fought with everyone who didn't agree with him - but now it's the spammers. As I tend to think 3 steps ahead whenever I can, - now with the "price fighters" gone, back but apparently taken well care of by homie, - what will be the next problem!?
I guess the question of 1000 points is: " how the hell will we get rid of homehydro now!?" LOL

Never ever I guess - or do I just soliloquise?

Have a nice day all, and you homehydro try to only once assimilate before anticipating and knowing it all before your brains have even made sense of the words. And - remember : no matter how stormy, absurdly and imaginatively you'll quote (God and Buddha beware us) and comment afterwards, YOU CANNOT EVER CHANGE THE ORIGINAL MEANING IT HAS FOR THE WRITER and perhaps a few others who have the presence of mind to check the who is who part in this intermezzo;-)

PS: @ Joe, you are still not right about the figures of optimal nutrient temperatures (as there is not exactly such thing) and you should consult a few more links before settling for a final conclusion... I've done my part.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

WOW!!!! Nuf' said


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RE: Hydro in high temps

I didn't just consult links. I went extreme. I went back to school for biochemistry.

No, I may not be exact on the figures. That's why I said, "or so". It was an estimation. The point was that the recommended range is not based on a single statement as you claim, but rather on the chemistry and the optimum range for maximizing dissolved oxygen. One reason I don't say much about HH's approach (which I admit is going pretty far) is because of this: YOU are a liar. You know far too much in the field of chemistry to believe what you wrote and yet you wrote it. You tried to show someone that you hold good knowledge that is different from the accepted knowledge by setting up a straw man to refute concerning the accepted knowledge. I simply addressed your straw man as just that. It's my confidence in your intellect and knowledge on the subject of chemistry that makes me very confident you didn't make a mistake in your claim, but rather outright lied just to seem somehow above the common knowledge. I don't understand why you are so concerned that online strangers are enamored with you, but you obviously are. I don't really care. People come here for guidance and unfortunately get to sift through a muddy mess of spammers, mean people, and people that try to get attention with sounding super smart even if the info is BS.

You remind me of Sheldon on the show "Big Bang Theory". Incredibly gifted, but no social skills and so stuck on being seen as right that he will not accept an answer if someone else gives a correct answer (thinking of the show where he was playing in a physics game and his teammate came up with an answer to a problem he couldn't answer and since he couldn't he didn't accept that the teammate got it right, so they lost the match). We find it funny on TV, but if we ever meet someone like Sheldon, most would absolutely hate him for being socially inept and for his total disregard for truth when his superiority complex stands to gain something from a lie.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

"Have you both considered the reciprocalness that generally goes along with sympathies and animosities?

Have you been nipping at the cooking sherry again? Why would I ever have any sympathy for such a pathetic waist. "animosity" gee what gave it away???????????

"But regardless of the reciprocalness, isn't it blindingly obvious that both of you, Jeff and Joe are no plaster saints either?"

The difference is I don't claim to be perfect, not believe any such thing, I also don't state that I'm rarely if ever wrong. Privately much less publicly.

"but there are certainly a few and you guys know it too well - unless you have managed to deceive yourselves completely since. Both of you ALSO are of the kind who have p.issed off a bunch of guys and gals on several occasions."

I would never deny that I have had disagreements with some people. The diffrance is that I don't treat them with disrespect unless they treat me that way first. I can disagree with other people (and or the general public) without hatred or disrespecting them. You take exception because you feel your disrespect towards others doesn't warrant the same treatment towards you, you think you are above everyone else, and the ends justify's the means when you treat others that way. Sorry I still don't pray to you.

"Is it possible that you just look into a mirror when judging me?"

Absolutely not, I judge each person individually by there character. I judge how I treat others by how I would want to be treated myself. Some people may recognize the phrase "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." When you cry about how people treat you, take a look at how you treat them.

"And with homehydro (alias GPSFrontier) it's either feast or famine anyway and he makes no prisoners either: for once best friends forever best friends no matter how."

Just who are you kidding? Name me one time we have ever been friends? As I mentioned you treated me like crap the first time I talked to you. Just what makes you think I there was ever any friendship. Talk about delusions. Also there is no deception behind the different user names in each forum. GpsFrontier is my first website, and I had that well before I joined the hydroponics online forum. I just needed something to log in with, and that was the first thing that crossed my mind that wasn't already taken.

Home hydro is just short for HomeHydroSystems, the website I decided to create many months after I joined hydroponics online forum. I cant change the user name once it is created, so I'm stuck with it (or I would happily, GpsFrontier seems stupid in a hydroponics forum).

"Hahahaha. Either he kneels before somebody (Daniel F.) which happens one in 100.000 times, or behaves like a pitiless and pedantic internal affairs Super Intendant. And with a pompous p.rick (even this expression is not his own but dates back to the time and the original location where I firstly pi.ssed him off) like me, he obviously gets in desperate straits. In fact it's not that much my personality, it's just old wounded vanity plus the envy I am provoking permanently in him. Is it my fault if you are always 1-2 steps behind with a lesson or another? ?"

If you think I worship Daniel, that's your prerogative. But I can tell you I refuse to worship people that treat people with such disrespect (regardless of who they are), as you do, and Daniel doesn't do that to people. You simply are just jealous because you want me to worship you, and I won't.

"Is it my fault if you are always 1-2 steps behind with a lesson or another? "

In your opinion, and that is all it is, is an opinion. I have told you time and time again, and you are just too stupid to understand. I don't care what knowledge you have, or or want to think you have. I would rather shoot myself in the head if it meant I needed you for anything. You are just like a needy old girlfriend that just cant accept that their ex has moved on without them. You can't accept I don't need or want you, so you keep injecting your falsities that I wont be able to succeed without you in your own mind. let's say I don't succeed without you, so what? What your too stupid to understand is, I don't care. that's my choice, and I won't be praying to you no-matter what you do.

"You do not act here, or tell anyone what needs to be told homehydro, - you merely REACT as the person YOU are"

My goal is not to decide what someone needs to be told, I don't have a GOD complex like you. My goal is to share my experiences, and hope other people (other than you) share theirs. If anyone disagrees, or has different experiences, they are welcome provided they are respectful (something you refuse to do, (so cry, cry, cry).

"No matter how upset you get with someone's behavior and/or personality - the worst thing you can do, is become like them or even to top the bill!"

This is just your ploy to to try to get me (and others) to ignore the fact you mistreat people, so you can get away with it unimpeded, like your spoiled brat of a personality expects.

"What you are trying to defeat and expose so vehemently and obstinately, is actually your own dark side, isn't it!?"

Nice try to shift blame, and not take responsibility for your actions.

"Clearly, homehydro - you are no exception and thus like everyone. you actually are your worst enemy"

Yes, I have never claimed to be better than anyone else (other than you) you just don't have any manners. I'm your worst enemy apparently. Go ahead and project your fears onto other people(especially me), that's called denial.

"Either you have in fact been like me all along - or have become a copy-cat of what you have projected in me over these 2 years."

Nice to know that you have noticed that I treat you the way you treat others, I take that as a complement. Knowing my efforts haven't gone unrewarded.

"You don't need ME, to get upset or to feel like having the right to project your own frustration and misery on any host that seems to deserve it in your opinion, - or do you?!"

No, I don't need you at all (even though your ego thinks so). My frustrations are with people like you. You still refuse to take responsibility for the way you treat people. Your frustrations are that I wont let you off the hook for it, and you want to cry, cry, cry, about it.


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part 2

I mean give your opponent enough rope - and they will hang themselves eventually . But I haven't ever seen anyone like you, self-strangulating themselves with every foot of rope I gave them

That goes both ways, though your too stupid to notice. Unless you think your superior to everyone else (as you do). That's exactly the way I feel about you. Even with your trying to intentionally distract form the point, you always hang yourself on the details (only refuse to admit it). The only difference is I don't try to give you rope to hang yourself, you just take it.

"Like nice people on the other hand can be liked for their character traits only and mustn't be extremely knowledgeable in the same time, to be appreciated. As cute girls do not necessarily need to have a PhD in theoretical physics, - as you can enjoy their cuteness and beauty, while ignoring their education or even bad manners at least for a little while, can't you?!? ;-) "

Yes I ignored it in the beginning as well from you. But it doesn't matter how cute a girl is, knowledgeable etc.. If she constantly mistreats you and others, she isn't worth a hill of beans and/or caring about (unless your just as shallow as she is), then you might think so. If getting a degree from a university means mandatory precipitation in the p*****s club, there is no point in getting a degree.

"Why radically refusing to even hear someone out, or PRINCIPALLY ignoring the part that might be of use, - isn't that more than stupid?! And anyone who stubbornly doesn't want to make the difference here, doesn't even deserve their share and are obviously doomed to drag that leg behind themselves a while longer."

Just your attempt to justify your mistreatment of others. Simply by claiming superiority and/or more knowledge as the basis for accepting the mistreatment. For anyone willing to give up there dignity in hopes of knowledge (that you aren't allowed to question), all the more power to you.

"you can always email him and tell him to go slow in particular cases LOL: That's why you deal with him more kindly"

Joe hasn't e-mailed me once. We exchanged a few private messaged in the other forum a long time back. Honestly it's my impression that Joe doesn't care much for me. But he doesn't mistreat other people, even when he disagrees with them. That I can respect.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Couldn't you two, HH and Jean-Lucas, make a gentlemans agreement to stop this incessant BS bickering. . . really?
How about whoever responds to a post first, the other person stays off that thread.
I mean really, look at what a waste this thread has become with the two of you pissing and moaning about each other constantly.
I just wonder how many newbies have been scared by this thread alone.
Pathetic really.
can we at least consider this thread closed.
Sheesh.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

grizzman
Are you telling me luches consent sarcastic put downs, belittlement, and general disrespect towards others is fine with you?

Before you suggest that it would be better than the long pointless threads. I would agree with that except that's the exact attitude he preys upon and is hoping for from people. He wants people to be afraid to say anything, just because they don't want that to happen. That opens the door for him to continue his disrespect towards others unimpeded. That just makes him feel superior to others, feeds his ego, and his mistreatment and disrespect towards others just gets worse and more frequent. Simply because nobody says anything, for FEAR of being the bad guy.

Also before you suggest that it would be better than the long pointless threads, don't underestimate just how many people (new or not) are afraid to chime in with their opinions and experiences, simply because of the FEAR of belittlement and disrespect backlash from lushes. Is that the forum you want? Just ignoring it isn't beneficial to the forum either. If standing up for yourself is considered pathetic, then I'm PROUD to call myself pathetic.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Getting the most possible oxygen dissolved into the water is critical, since the O2 saturation point lowers dramatically as temps rise. I recirculate more than half the water coming out of the pump through a shower head directly back into the reservoir. I also shut off the pump for 10 min each hour to give roots direct access to air. I was recently able to grow full size butterhead lettuce this way with water temps peaking in the mid 90s (F) from time to time, using NFT (65 meters of channel fed from small 60 liter tank).

If I were using DFT I'd drill a small hole in the drain tube half way down, and put a vacuum break on the line from the pump to prevent reverse siphoning. Then you could shut off the pump and let the water drop to the height of the hole in the drain tube periodically, to give the roots time to 'breathe'

I use an external, not submersible, pump to avoid transferring motor heat to the solution.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

I like the shower head idea. But if you had two identical setups, in the same place, and with all the other variables identical. So that water temp was the only difference, you would have better growth and especially plant quality, with cooler water temp's between 65F and 75F, than you would with higher water temps in the low 80's and up. What it really comes down to is, if your happy with the results for your efforts, and what you have to work with.


 o
In my area

In my area, external pumps cost about twice as much as submersible pumps. So cost is an issue for me. I haven't done any extensive research, but when I hold a working pump in my hand, I don't feel any heat from it. The way I see it, is it doesn't matter if any heat is transferred through a submersed pump, or through the liquid running through a above ground pump (the heat is still able to be in contact and adsorbed with the water/liquid in question as it's pumped through it).


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Rather than get into the juvenile peeing contest explicated here in all its glory and a reason I rarely come to this forum any more, here is a chart showing dissolved oxygen vs water temperature. DO controls many aspects of hydro.

Photobucket


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RE: Hydro in high temps

HH,
you can always place a submersible pump in an external tub of water. you'll just need hoses at both the inlet and outlet.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

With an external pump the majority of waste heat is transferred to the casing and then to the environment. With submersibles, it has no where to go but the solution. It's not the momentary passage of liquid inside the pump where the heat transfer occurs. That said, only a side by side comparison of two otherwise identical systems could determine whether min, max, median or average temps were significantly different. On a side note, I was able to find 150 watt Chinese made external pump for 1200 baht. But I admit that's still much more than a 50 watt aquarium pump. Someone could calculate how many BTUs a 50 watt aquarium pump produces in 24 hrs continuous duty if they really wanted to.

I needed the bigger pump anyway since I run two levels of NFT one over the other, plus I plan to make a cooling tower to try and bring temps down in the future. Then I'll be able to see if growth rates are noticeably improved.

The DO graph tells half the story. Overlay on that a chart of the respiration rate of the plant roots at each temp to see that at some point they will crossover, this is where the plants will begin to suffer.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

I don't use aquarium water pumps, I use fountain/pond pumps. And I never bothered to check, but I still have the box. The largest one I have pumps 500 gallons per hour, with a maximum lift of 8.7 feet. The power consumption is 35 watts, and 0.6 amps. This pump is larger than I need for any system I have done so far. In fact I usually need to use a "T" connector and run half the water directly back into the reservoir so it wont overflow the systems.

I mainly run flood and drain, or drip systems (as well as water culture systems that only uses a air pump). So my pumps are never running for long periods either. At most 30 on, and 30 off (50% of the time) during the hot parts of the day in the flood and drain systems (with only one or two cycles during the night). The Drip systems usually have enough growing medium to keep the roots moist for hours, even during the hot part of the day. So those usually run 30 on, and 2-3 hours off.

I can see how the theory of a external pump being able to dissipate some of the heat through the casing and into the surrounding air, rather than directly into the water if it was submersed makes sense. But at the same time if the surrounding air is warmer than the pump, there wont be any dissipation of heat into the already warmer surrounding air. And it would be pointless if the air temp wasn't significantly higher than the water temp, otherwise the ambient air temp would be enough to keep the water temp in range. The pump would need to put out a significant amount of heat to make a difference.

But using the pumps I do, and from simply touching them after they have been running for a while (that I often do). Like every time I do a nutrient change, and take them apart and clean them each time. I simply have never noticed any noticeable heat from them.

I would need to do a side by side controlled experiment using identical water volumes, starting water temps, air temps, and containers. Then run a pump for hours in one of them, then compare water temps to see if there was any difference between the two. Even if there was I cant see it being more than 1 or 2 degrees at most. At least with the pumps I have.

grizzman
I guess it depends on the pump/s your using. The pumps I use/have would need extensive modification to attach a housing that I could attach a hose to the water inlet side (and that was durable enough to last), and it would need to be gravity feed into the pump. Unless it was going to make a significant difference, I just don't see the effort being worth it. As I mentioned I haven't noticed any significant heat coming from the pumps I use, and 1-2 degree change at most isn't going to make enough of a difference to me. The water temps I deal with from late April to early October need much more cooling than that. But I'm sure under the right circumstances that could be useful.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

HH,
I totally agree about it not being needed. I was just saying it could be done pretty easily.
Two of probably 5 pumps I have came with threaded inlet lines.
1 of them is touted as being submersible or run dry. I used to use it as a quick way to drain a reservoir. way faster than gravity alone.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

I agree, if you can get by with a 35 watt pump then you obviously should, and with a small pump like that, no need to worry about heat transfer into the reservoir. You can easily hold a lit 35 watt light bulb in your hand, and you'll feel negligable heat. A 150 watt bulb is obviously a different story. For my setup, I needed considerably more capacity than a 35 watt pump could provide, and unfortunately the smallest external pump I could find was 150 watt, which is more than I need for now, but then again I will be able to use it to drive nutrients to multiple greenhouses in the future.

But the origianl point of this thread was can you successfully grow crops with high nutrient temps, and the answer was, at least in my case, yes. I was actually suprised by how well the results turned out, having been led to expect nothing but pythium flareups and prematurely bolted lettuce. Neither occured.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Get a chiller. Keep water temp 65. Hygrozyme is nice you said you used it and see brown sludg. If you are all chemical which im sure you are being hydro you have no microbs to worry about so you can use H202 35% 1 ts a gal or more. H2o2 can be used with hygrozyme.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Be very cautious if using the 35% hydrogen peroxide, it's very caustic and even the smallest drop on your skin can cause burns, not to mention serious eye injury if any at all gets in your eyes. The only benefit to using the 35% is it's 10 times as strong as the 3%, but it's also 10 times as more expensive as well. It's much easier to use more of the 3% and not need to worry about injuries.


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RE: Hydro in high temps

Not sure what all of the above was about...

I keep my "res" temp at around 80 to keep the fish happy. I can't really go into the science behind it, but the pH stays around 6.8-7.2, and I keep lots of O2 flowing into the water. The cucumbers and peppers are doing great as well as the Dill, Sugar Snap Peas, and Cantaloupes. Even the lettuce is doing well. The air temp stay around 70(night)-85(day w/bad circ) @ 35-50% humidity.
Growing in higher temps is possible, but you do have to keep an eye on the DO.


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