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pH drop

Posted by Soyousee 8 (My Page) on
Fri, Apr 8, 11 at 17:26

Here is the deal, using RO water after adding nutes the pH will be about 6.3. It starts to drop right away. Down to 5.40 in 2 days. Adjusted back up to 6.4 and it will start to drop again. Aeroponic system with strawberries. I've not had pH drop like this before, any ideas? Oh yes, using General Hydroponics straight up "Simple System" mix for grow.
"Doing 10 with no Chance of Parole"


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: pH drop

Ph will vary with nutrient uptake by the plant, it's normal.


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RE: pH drop

Understand that, but never had drop before always had to add pH down and never at this speed. Anyone ever had this change and know why? Only change I know of is different RO system but ppm from both is the same.
"Doing 10 with no Chance of Parole"


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RE: pH drop

Unless you are talking about a using the same nutrients for a extended period of time. I'm at a loss as well. But that's not what you said (I don't think). However as the plants get bigger, they absorb/use more nutrients. (especially with smaller reservoirs). That will affect the nutrient solution (and pH), especially if the plants are getting bigger and the nutrient reservoir is not. Keep track of all the factors, pH, when you change nutrients, temp (both water and air), nutrient strength (per-manufactures recommendations) etc.. and or any other changes...


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RE: pH drop

This is the part that bothers me. Using the same formula of nutes, mild grow in the Simple, http://www.genhydro.com/calculator/
With RO water and a 25 gal. reservoir feeding 20 young strawberrie plants.
Having to add 2cc pH up every day to stay in range.
Do strawberries take that much acid out of the solution. It just seems out of bounds but we are going to make nutes last at least a week and watch the plants close.
This is our first year with strawberries and have made every mistake possible so far.
We were taught that when pH drops it's time for a nutes change, may have to re-think that one.
"Doing 10 with no Chance of Parole"

Here is a link that might be useful: small plants


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RE: pH drop

25 gallons for 20 strawberry plants should be fine, even for full grown berry producing plants. So plants that small should last even longer on that volume of nutrient solution. I would expect to go 2-3 weeks fine with that water to plant/size ratio.

Going by that chart it looks like you are mixing your nutrients at:

10mL (2 tsp) per gallon Gro
5mL (1 tsp) per gallon micro
5mL (1 tsp) per gallon bloom

For plants that small that is probably just fine, and focusing on growing foliage for plants that small is fine as well. Although I used equal parts of 10ml (2 tsp) of each part (Gro/Micro/Bloom) per gallon with my strawberry's when I transplanted them into the system. Then a little later I went with what that chart shows for bloom phase at about

1 (to 2) tsp (5mL-10mL) per gallon of Gro
2 tsp (10mL) pre gallon of micro
3 tsp (15 mL) per gallon of bloom.

I an not saying you should change anything, or even that the way the nutrients are mixed is contributing to your pH problem. Just saying what I did. You shouldn't be needing to adjust your pH daily, just to keep it within a range like 5.5 to 6.5. There is a problem somewhere, and if you weren't having a problem before, I can only assume something changed. I just don't know what.

P.S
Are you using a pH meter, or pH drops to test the pH. If your using a meter I would suggest getting some pH drops and compare results. It wouldn't be the first time a meter gave false readings even when taken care of and calibrated regularly.


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RE: pH drop

Hi Soyousee,

RO water is said to be "best" for hydroponics, but it has 2 disadvantages though. 1. It has virtually no minerals and hence no buffer and thus no alkaline buffer. 2. if exposed to the atmosphere for longer (not bottled), it may bread bacteria like a Petri dish.

Unlike some people tend to think and to tell about, most Nutrients (including GH products) are actually not designed for RO water but for (rather soft) tap water. That's why GH offers an alternative with their "hard water micros" - but which is not of your direct concern right now.

Possible Effects:
1. the fact that there is no extra (alkaline) buffer in the form of Ca or bicarbonates with pure (not re-mineralized) RO water, means that your nutrients have an acidic effect and will make your pH drop. The higher the nutrient concentration in this case, the more (radically) your pH will drop and the more acidic buffer you'll have to "wrestle down" with pH-down.

2. RO water may indeed bread bacteria that can transform and nitrify NH4+ (ammoniacal N). In case of the GH-series, a combination of NH4+ and NO3 is used to buffer against pH raises but will not buffer against pH drop. In fact even without high bacterial activity, the "right" combination of both Nitrogen forms (like in GH products) tends to stabilize the solution at around pH 5.5. Thus the "drop" to 5.5 (5.4) with no "natural alkaline buffer" is not surprising.

Anyway an ideal pH is not exactly 6.3 (6.4) but in fact between 5.6 and 6.1. Why? because that is not only the range where you have the least uptake problems, no precipitation or instabilities of micros - but where the plant is supposed to take the most correct ratios.

Solution:

Best is to aim for an initial starting EC between 0.25 -0.35 mS/cm, (assuming mainly alkaline mineral components like Ca) instead of pure RO. Simply by mixing/adding good quality (chlorine free or low) tap water or alternative in a certain ratio to your RO water. And voila there you have reestablished a better water signature and a variable alkaline buffer for free... ;-) Alternatively any CalMag product (or a DIY version of it) can be used to get your RO water to the aimed 0.25 -0.35 mS/cm.
Also: always use (do not exceed) the recommended ml of any component that contains high amounts of (both) N forms, in case your pH tends to drop. You may even lower N slightly in your case.

PS: you may start with a, let's say 1:3 tap water:RO ratio and observe your pH. And push it until 1:1 (50/50) ratio and thus modify until you have got the most stable ratio that allows you to have a "slow" swing from 5.5-6.3 before correcting anything.


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RE: pH drop

This statement was taken directly from the page with the nutrient calculator that Soyousee provided directly from General Hydroponics website.

"Notes: Do not premix nutrients - add to water only. Nutrient Solution readings are only an approximation in pure water and yours will vary depending on the quality of your water."

You'll notice they say "in pure water," not tap or soft water. RO water is about as pure as your going to get without going to distilled. Except possibly rain water in some locations, and depending on how it's collected. If you have any questions about what water they suggest to use, e-mail them directly at tech@genhydro.com and just ask them yourself directly, even ask them about your recent pH problem while your at it.

P.S.
Sure GH offers a micro for hard water applications (that's NOT an issue here), but they cant possibly know what's in everybody's hard water. Simply because the minerals in the water vary from location to location, even change daily in the same location at times. So the hard water micro nutrients are not for pH issues. The hard water micro nutrients help compensate for extra minerals in the hard water supply, and are just a last resort for people who just cant use good water to begin with.


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RE: pH drop

I don't see a single correlation and certainly no contradiction between my explanations and recommendations and the quoted statement of General Hydroponics. 1. Premixing Nutrients has not even been touched as they refer to mixing their concentrates. They don't say anything about changing the water signature by either mixing tap and RO or adding appropriate amounts of CalMag to the water. When they refer to "pure water", they most probably mean what I meant, clean, chlorine free and rather mineral poor soft water. Otherwise they would refer to either RO or distilled water instead, wouldn't they?!

I also clearly said that GH's alternative hard water micro is not of Soyousee's concern in this context. Thus no need to even mention it as not been an issue here.

But Nope, General Hydroponic's Hard Water Micros do NOT compensate for extra minerals and are not any last resort for anyone but simply an appropriate solution for hard water - and anyway, hard water isn't necessarily the contrary of "good water"...

General Hydroponic's HW micros are specially designed for the use of hard water which is typically more alkaline and rich in Ca. This kind of water is very common in Europe and parts of the US.
The only difference between both is obviously MIUCH less calcium, no P for some technical reason (I guess). Less Nitrogen and considerably more ammoniacal Nitrogen, which enhances the buffering of acidic pH to counterweight any extra or excess in Ca. This demonstrates pretty well what nutrient design and composition is about and how Ca content and the ammoniacal N part do make the difference along with the phosphorus ratio!

Here is the (almost) exact analyses (of a "typical" addition) of micro vs HW micro. I can't say more as I do not want to be charged with industrial espionage by GH at the end - and DO NOT ASK ME how I GOT IT;-)

PS: As a Nutrient designer, I have spend hours and hours with studying and analyzing this product line to find out about it's "secret" and popularity - I probably know more about the ingredients and composition than GH will reveal to anyone any soon LOL.

But about addressing the issue and questions directly to GH, I fully approve. But anyone doing so and comparing the answers eventually with my recommendations: do not quote anything I have stated or recommended out of the proper context and do not twist it. In case of doubt and uncertainties, asking and checking back is key.


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RE: pH drop

they most probably mean what I meant, clean, chlorine free and rather mineral poor soft water

Guess all you want, I have already e-mailed them about what type of water to use years ago. I have 3 types of water I can use, RO water, soft water from inside, and hard water from outside. They said not to use soft water at all, but to use the RO water. Possibly 90% RO and 10% hard water from outside (for added minerals), but not any soft water at all. You don't need to guess (that's why I recommend asking them), just e-mail them the question yourself. I know what they said, it's not a guess in the slightest. They also didn't need to mention mixing tap and and/or RO, or adding additives. When you start with good water quality, you don't need to try to alter it. So why would they?

I also clearly said that GH's alternative hard water micro is not of Soyousee's concern in this context. Thus no need to even mention it as not been an issue here.

Exactly, you brought it up first, and the only reason you did was to try to look smart. There was no need because it clearly wasn't an issue/concern here.

The only difference between both is obviously MIUCH less calcium, no P for some technical reason (I guess).

By your own words you prove my point. They cant guess what elements are in anyone's specific hard water, so it's imposable to make a different hard water nutrient for everyone. But most hard water has more calcium in it, so they compensate with less in the hard water micro nutrients. They don't know we have a lot of iron in our water, even if they did they are not going to develop a product line just for me. But they will be happy to manufacture a nutrient for your specific water quality, if you buy enough quantity.

But Nope, General Hydroponic's Hard Water Micros do NOT compensate for extra minerals and are not any last resort for anyone

That's not what General Hydroponics told me in the slightest when I e-mailed their tech support years ago myself, with water quality issues/questions (the e-mail address I posted). Again Just ask general hydroponics ("as I did"), they won't recommend using the hard water nutrients over beginning with good water quality (such as filtered/RO water) if it's at all possible to use better water quality to begin with. Ask a local hydroponics shop employee, and they may tell you something else to sell a product however. Just ask the manufacture directly when your using their products (as I do).

And trust me, I couldn't care less where you got a pretty chart that you can't disclose. I simply would need to take the time to verify what it says before I ever considered weather it could be trusted or not. Even so, it verifies what I said, and my point anyway (thanks).

P.S.
It's nice of you to approve of someone asking the manufacture about their products (as if anyone needs your permission).


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added info

Part 2

I don't see a single correlation and certainly no contradiction between my explanations and recommendations and the quoted statement of General Hydroponics.

Of coarse not, you need to re-read the point a few times. Rather than just anticipating the point you want to determine, in order to be able to try to understand it.

Premixing Nutrients has not even been touched as they refer to mixing their concentrates.

That wasn't the important part of the quoted statement, and no that part of it wasn't relevant to this situation (that's why you focused on it to try to distract from the point). But if you understood the point of the post (and I have no doubt you do), you would have known that. That's just you trying to twist it around (as you blame others of doing). I quoted the entire statement so it could be read in the context it was intended (so I couldn't be blamed of altering the meaning, and yet you still try). If you would have read my underlined part of the quoted statement (in my post), you would have been CLUED IN ON THE RELEVANT PART of the quoted statement.

Pure water doesn't mean any water one believes good, it refers to water that consists of only hydrogen (H) and oxygen (O), and nothing at all else. Distilled water is the only "pure water", Do I really need to post a bunch of links to show the definition of "pure water," no you know what it refers to, that's just a try at distracting from the point (but I will if necessary).


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RE: pH drop

Thanks Hydro we got info in the KISS forum that we so badly need. Right now we have to rebuild the green house from the storm last night, some of our plants were sucked out of their pipes and thrown around. There was nothing wrong with the greenhouse design it was my attachment of sun screen that overloaded the hinges and latches then the rush of air blew the panel out.
We will just keep the pH level as close to range as possible until the culprit shows itself.
"Doing 10 with no Chance of Parole"

Here is a link that might be useful: panel, vent, & door


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RE: pH drop

Let's keep things straight, essential and most transparent for everyone: I gave clear advice to mix a certain amount of tap water to the RO water to change the water signature to more alkaline - which is in fact harden it just a bit in this case. This was in fact confirmed by GH when they said: "Possibly 90% RO and 10% hard water from outside (for added minerals)," Which does not exclude to increase the amount until 1:3 or even more in case. As it's a simple and perfectly sound method to add more Ca and thus alkaline buffer and avoid drastic pH drops. This recommendation from GH also confirms that the product line is in fact not designed for almost completely mineral free RO water.

Obviously, in this particular case (drastic pH drop) it is all about more alkalinity through more Ca content in the water signature to counterweight the pH drop experienced by Soyousee. Thus, IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING that there has to be a certain amount of calcium in the tap water (which obviously means rater hard than soft water). Of course that GH recommends the add of HARD water and no soft water IN THIS CASE. ;-)

But for the record, let's not forget that a bunch of people have only access and actually use what is called "naturally rather soft water" together with GH standard products - contrary to those who have that much mineral content to be denominated as "hard water" and are better off using the hard water micros. GH standard is designed as an all purpose nutrient line, for "everyone". And as there is in fact only a minority of people who have access to RO water, it's safe to say that the GH standard product line is designed for rather soft water. The contrary of hard water is soft water, isn't that so? And, Oh God, can you believe that, RO water is merely mechanically softened water! LOL

One more thing for the sake of clarity: there is a huge difference between naturally soft water, which is nothing else than mineral- an metal poor natural water that hasn't traveled much through mineral layers, - and (not to ever confuse with) mechanically or chemically softened water!

Does that finally starts to make sense to anyone!?


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RE: pH drop

@ Soyousee,
What prevents you from trying to change the water signature of you "all too clean and Ca free, having no alkaline buffer" RO-water, by simply adding some Ca through hard water (this time very EXPLICITLY for the record) or any other Ca/Mg source like CalMag? In case homehydra has again managed to poison my well and make you skeptical about my recommendation, at least go with GH's 10% advice. Although I believe the GH guy plays a bit too safe here and that in this particular case, 20-30% (or at least and more precisely) the previously recommended 0.25 -0.35 mS/cm represented by mainly Ca and some Mg is likely to show more clear effect and results.

Good luck with it anyway! ;-)


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RE: pH drop

lucas_formulas
You may have a problem keeping things straight, but their clear to me. First off you said soft water, (not naturally soft water). And GH doesn't recommend using soft water from a water softener. Even by your own definition RO water is soft water (witch is true by definition of lacking minerals). Second GH's recommendation was a general statement, and had absolutely nothing to do with any pH issues (because I wasn't having any). My concerns were only about salt content in the soft water, and chemicals, pathogens and/or unwanted minerals in the outside hard water. So nothing they said confirms anything you said, even if you want to think so.

Their recommendation was clear also, "use RO water", and if you wish try using 10% water NOT from the water softener, witch left me with the hard water from outside (the hard water), that amount of extra minerals shouldn't hurt (they cant tell what's in it), otherwise use only RO water. I wasn't having any growth problems, or pH issues at all. And never once if I did, did they ever once suggested using anything other than the RO water. In fact I use nothing other than 100% RO water to this day (and so do a lot of people with no pH issues). The only problem is that it takes so long to get enough water from the RO system to change a 20 gallon reservoir, at a rate of about 1 gallon per hour, I need to plan a nutrient change the day before.

GH hasn't confirmed anything you said, you just want to think so. Again you misread the statement "an approximation in pure water and yours will vary depending on the quality of your water." Witch is clear that they are designed for good filtered water, and that water quality is an important factor. As well as that their products are designed for a standard of water with little mineral content in it such as RO, simply because the mineral content varies for everyone's water supply. If they weren't designed for nearly mineral free water, they wouldn't be suggesting to use at least 90% RO water. And their nutrient calculator wouldn't be based on using "pure water." I think your just afraid of people asking GH themselves and finding out the truth.

Another thing that's clear to me, and you want to distract from and just gloss over, is that Soyousee pH problem is a new development, not an old one, and that he has been using RO water all along, as I understand it. The quality of his RO hasn't changed, so water quality and any mineral content in it, isn't the issue. I would rather fix the problem, than to put a patch on the symptoms (I think most people would).

P.S.
Ro water and other good quality water filtration systems are pretty standard in this country. 8 out of 10 homes in the town I live in are equipped with RO filtration systems. But there are lots of other good quality filtration systems. For $20-$30 I can go to home depot and get an inline filter that will take out almost all the minerals, and for a few bucks more I can get a replaceable pre-sediment filter to keep the me from needing to change the filter often. Even when living in California (over 10 years ago) we had a 3 stage under sink filter system for drinking water that was cost under $100 way back then. Water filtration systems are very common in this country.


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RE: pH drop

To put the key issues and my statements again in simple but unmistakably explicit words, free from any of homehydro's well known contortions:

1. Obviously RO water is mechanically softened water, in most cases basically from hard(er) water as source. If taking almost pure RO water and adding from 10-30% of hard water (or mineral and water-soluble Ca and Mg which are the main components of any so called hard water) you get nothing else than from still soft to slightly harder water. The conclusion still is that the GH nutrient program is designed for SOFT WATER (although it is a relative depiction, - I haven't invented nor brought in voluntarily here) rather than for any other water. Thus the statement that GH standard nutrients are actually designed for SOFT water is absolutely correct and valid!

2. The recommendations I gave were for this particular case only. All other annex comments just illustration - not meant to be put in another and thus wrong context!

3. It's all about transforming the base water's signature to more alkaline and Ca rich. It is the most obvious and logical thing to do in such case of radical and early drop in pH. I am not afraid at all to have a second or third opinion of any expert - I am merely afraid it gets twisted until a certain member called homehydra has "made his point and boost his Ego" enough by repetition ad nauseam, regardless if it is helpful for anyone else, or not.

4. Yes, there is still this point that there SEEMS to be no change in the RO water quality, according to the thread starter. But as nobody is able to figure out what the change actually is, - because there IS a change that causes the issue, I simply had to figure it out with an unknown in place.

5. Seems more like you homehydra want to retain Soyousee by all means from trying my simple and easy to do recommendation and advice. At the risk of me being right and you (although you haven't given any single solution nor advice) wrong with just arguing for the sake of arguing? ;-)

6. To whom it may concern: simply try it or ask any expert about it and prove me OBJECTIVELY wrong, - kill me with the result.... if ever you can - LOL

7. It should be evident and obvious now for anyone who actually WANTS to connect the dots as I pointed them out.. Thus I am not wasting any more time with this, nor am I commenting any of homehydra's well known intellectual contortions. Take it as it is meant or leave it - for the sanity and the mental well-being of us all! LOL


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RE: pH drop

I never claimed to know what is causing the new (keyword NEW) pH problem, in fact that was exactly what I said early on before you chimed in. I just know there is some change, or thing newly added that is affecting it. And that is where the key to solving the problem lies. Also to people in this country soft water generally means it was run through a standard salt type water softener, and General Hydroponics recommends not using that type of water at all. Otherwise it's referred to as filtered or RO. There is nothing I said about the type of water/water quality recommended by general hydroponics that they haven't told me directly (and is posted right on their website). Yet you feel the need to contest it, so you must think that GH is wrong about their advice and products. All anyone who wants to know the truth just needs to do is e-mail them directly, and find out what they say themselves (as I have done many times for various reasons). If I was fearful about what GH would tell them, I wouldn't be so adamant about suggesting they do so.

All other annex comments just illustration - not meant to be put in another and thus wrong context!

Problem is you don't take the time to understand the context in which the statements of others are meant, but anticipate (as you accuse others of) what you think was meant. As well as are so vain that you think everything needs rotate around you, and only you, or it cant exist unless you approve.

It's all about transforming the base water's signature to more alkaline and Ca rich. It is the most obvious and logical thing to do in such case of radical and early drop in pH.

Even if it does work, it's much more logical to figure out what caused the problem in the first place (to most of us anyway).

I am not afraid at all to have a second or third opinion of any expert - I am merely afraid it gets twisted until a certain member called homehydra has "made his point and boost his Ego

I could never match your Ego, Again you don't take the time to understand what people are saying before you just anticipate what you think they are saying. Then call it trying to twist things. The way it looks from here you are completely afraid of people finding out for themselves from a legitimate source. It's quite apparent in how you demand people just believe everything you say without question over and over.

4. Yes, there is still this point that there SEEMS to be no change in the RO water quality, according to the thread starter. But as nobody is able to figure out what the change actually is, - because there IS a change that causes the issue, I simply had to figure it out with an unknown in place.

Finally through all the BS you at least agnolage there is a problem, but you didn't figure anything out, except possibly how to put temporary bandage on it (if it even lats long).

Seems more like you homehydra want to retain Soyousee by all means from trying my simple and easy to do recommendation and advice. At the risk of me being right and you (although you haven't given any single solution nor advice) wrong with just arguing for the sake of arguing?

That's a good one, made me giggle. But again you just don't take the time to even read what others wright before just making assumptions, and your Ego getting the way. I have made various suggestions, like verifying the pH testing equipment is actually working properly, taking the time to think about any possible change that would have taken place around the time the pH problem started (much more valuable than just putting a band-aid on it), as well as e-mailing general hydroponics with the specifics, and seeing what they have to say. I never said not to try your advice, I just made some points to clarify some misinformation, and would strongly suggest contacting GH to get their opinion. That isn't fear of you being right about anything. Even if your advice helps/works it still wouldn't pinpoint the problem, but just make it harder to narrow down. That isn't fear of anything either (their not my plants).


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RE: pH drop

This is definitely too much Calcium Nitrate bags for my old little truck, Ladies - LOL

If nothing helps,- tell them the truth (Robert Kennedy)
I do not "agnoladge" (I knew you could be creative for a change) with your rhetorical masturbation, - you bet I don't. LOL - You Sir, simply had WAY too much vacation and probably stayed quite too long alone in that desert, which only adds to it.

Besides, how much have you learned from me, only in this single thread -- without even realizing or admitting it, as it seems. Well why would you otherwise have made it sound like, what you have just learned, has become your own knowledge and intellectual property - just a single post later?! Do you really think that nobody notices how you are jealously picking up any info you can grab - and instantly make it sound like you did knew them all along or were even thinking it up by yourself!? All you have left to do is to attack, discredit and blame me for whatever- and voila! But how bloody insane is that anyway - and how long do you think you can get away with such kind of boobyish fraud!? You didn't even know that RO water was in fact mechanically softened water until I mentioned it. LOL I will never forget your extreme learning history about hydroponics (which doesn't date that long back anyway) when someone asked at the other forum, about Epson salts, you strongly disrecommend it because plants will not tolerate any salts and die. After that you were confused with the disambiguation of both magnesium sulphate and sulfate (in one of Daniel's threads). I hope you have figured out by now that the difference is only the british spelling and nothing else :-) About two weeks ago in the same forum, you strongly disrecommend any use of epson salts as an additive again, because it will put macro nutrients out of balance. Your learning process is paved with ever and ever popping up TOTAL ignorance as soon as you forget to google up something, resulting in series of disinformation of others! You want to learn by teaching and coaching, while still not knowing much? Well you'd be the first in succeeding with it - good luck with that and my compassion with the numerous newbies you have used and will have to use as cannon-fodder...

You know what? I don't care if you realize it or not or get away with it here or elsewhere, - but from now on you'll have to get it together without my participation. No way I will accept such impertinence from your side and cowardly bystanding from any other. I will not post a single information wherever and whenever you are even remotely involved. But then again you exactly know why you can just pull your "too much for a lil empathy number" in only 2 forums. Well, I know of a few really cosy and neat places where you'd be instantly seen through as the poseur you are and sooner than expected shoot down and burst in flames. No way you could pull only half of the tricks and hoover salesman rhetoric you try to sell here- goodness! If only you'd ever heard of the language(s) people use to speak and write at some of those places! Places where Yankee Smartarses aren't as common and as thick as thieves beyond insanity - LOL You guys prefer an all american Master Con to any other national expert that may get in his or your way, don't you?! No, it's not me pulling any of "those cards", it's you guys keeping the kin protectionist card always up you sleeves without even knowing nor ever admitting it. But not for anyone's good except perhaps face saving from total humiliation ;-)

Take care and get that highly obsessive behavior of yours under control (as it truly is too much for your own good) - I mean it!

Barely forgot this! One last hint before I blend in again (probably for good - that's why I am so long) with the thick rain forest I came from: Never ever go to Thailand, it's not safe there! Everyone wants only your money. The food is crap and unhygienic. There is no such thing as toilet paper. Not even fork and knife are commonly used for eating and rarely available. Bed sheets and underwear are still unknown. The climate is excruciatingly hot and moist all year long. It's full of prostitutes, con artists and people who's favorite porn is Home(hydro) Alone 1&2, thieves, terrorists, extremists, cut-throats, mobsters and drug dealers! And if no Tsunami spills you off the beach. where and when you expect it the least, you get shot in the back in the open street for no reason (well in some cases for a good reason, though). The strangest thing though, is that you have to show a fully functional EC-meter at the border and demonstrate that you can handle it - you can't enter the Kingdom without LOL. Simply a No Go for any sharp and well schooled boy like you! Best is too keep far away even from S.E.A! At least trust me on this, as it really is for your own good this time:-)

I have wasted way more than enough of my time on this - Bye!


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RE: pH drop

Besides, how much have you learned from me, only in this single thread -- without even realizing or admitting it, as it seems.

Absolutely nothing, I don't care about anything you have to say, and I'm not going to take the time to verify any of it. I simply gave you the benefit of the doubt about the calcium stuff because I cant dispute it, and again I don't want to take the time to verify anything you say (ever). That doesn't mean that I believe it, although your huge Ego must think so.

Well why would you otherwise have made it sound like, what you have just learned, has become your own knowledge and intellectual property - just a single post later?!

What are you even talking about? The fact that water without minerals is technically soft water? That is common knowledge, what do you think a water softener does in the first place. I have known about that for over 30 years, from back in California when my childhood best friends had a water softener at their house. That doesn't change any facts. In this country when one uses the term "soft water" they are referring to water that has gone through a water softener (that type of water is not recommended to be used by GH). You think I learned something from you just because I threw your own words back in your face? You give yourself way too much credit(but nothing that I wouldn't expect from that huge ego).

You didn't even know that RO water was in fact mechanically softened water until I mentioned it.

That's your ego giving you credit for nothing again, just because I Throw your own words back in your face. I have absolutely known that fact for many years. The difference is that RO is a fancy term for FILTERED WATER, and takes out even more minerals than a water softener does, or lesser quality FILTER SYSTEMS (but doesn't leave any salt in it like a water softener does, because it doesn't use any).

I even know of a RO system where you can control the mineral content that's left in the water. I was trying to work things out with them last year (at the home show), to rent one of their systems, though I don't have any money. Main reason I wanted one is because it has a continues flow, where our RO (filtering system) has a 3 gallon reserve tank and takes about 2 hours to refill. The continues flow system doesn't put out any more water per minute, but never slows down or needs to refill the reserve tank. So it puts out much more water per day. Their system cost about $900 to buy outright, and something like $20-$40 to rent (if I member correctly), but I'm sure you need to pay for regular service calls, and filter changes per the rental agreement. Scene then I have found RO FILTERING SYSTEMS that have an output of 700 gallons per day for as little as $400, so I'm leaning in that direction (when I can afford it).

when someone asked at the other forum, about Epson salts, you strongly disrecommend it because plants will not tolerate any salts and die. After that you were confused with the disambiguation of both magnesium sulphate and sulfate (in one of Daniel's threads).

Yes you are right, years back that was my thinking. I have never said before, nor ever will say that my thing cant ever change. That's why I asked Daniel about it because (to learn). But not just because of the term "Salt" in the words Epson salt, but mostly because I was always seeing the term "Mineral Salts" in relation to hydroponic nutrients. Also because I knew TDS was often referred to as total dissolved salts (instead of total dissolved solids). That is one thing I also e-mailed general hydroponics about quite a while back (well the clarification on the term TDS anyway). To be honest I don't completely remember Daniel's answer, but as I remember it's that there are many types of salts, and any will be toxic to plants in large enough quantity. But the term salts is not referring to regular table salt witch still wont be toxic in small enough quantity's. Now I look at the terms "mineral salts" and "mineral elements" as the same thing, and of coarse any in to large enough quantities will be toxic (hence the term mineral deficiencies and toxicities). Again nothing I learned from you though, and wouldn't even trust coming from you.

About two weeks ago in the same forum, you strongly disrecommend any use of epson salts as an additive again, because it will put macro nutrients out of balance.

Yes absolutely. There is no reason/need to put epson salt in a already balanced pre-manufactured nutrient solution for hydroponic plants. It's already balanced.

Your learning process is paved with ever and ever popping up TOTAL ignorance as soon as you forget to google up something, resulting in series of disinformation of others

Whatever you disagree with you call TOTAL ignorance, as if you are just better than everyone else. Simply because of your superiority complex, and thus huge Ego. And yes I use search engines to find good information like everybody with a internet connection does. But I refine my searches to creditable sources first, I simply don't want to sift through what can be trusted and what cant otherwise. Forums are not creditable sources of information, they can give leads on things to look for and look up, as well as offer a lot been there and done that practical experience from others. Problem is you just get jealous when people look things up themselves, and get upset if you don't agree with their opinions. You want to regard yourself as the only creditable source of information (Ego).

No way I will accept such impertinence from your side

You can dish it out just fine, are you saying you don't like it in return? Cry me a river..

I know of a few really cosy and neat places where you'd be instantly seen through as the poseur you are and sooner than expected shoot down and burst in flames.

Poseur, you make me laugh again. Are kids still using that term? There is nothing to see through at all, I'm always upfront with everybody, including you (even if they don't like it), you just want to anticipate something else in your own mind. Also I have NEVER claimed to know everything or that I'm perfect (like you do), and I'm fine with people knowing where I'm coming from and thinking. I like sharing (who doesn't), back and forth conversation, and as long as they are respectful, I try to be respectful towards them back plain and simple (that concept is obviously over your head).

You guys prefer an all american Master Con to any other national expert that may get in his or your way, don't you?! No, it's not me pulling any of "those cards"

That's exactly the card your pulling here. Again you claim to be the know it all expert, and demanding respect for it. As if that's supposed to be sufficient reason to overlook all the disrespect you show others.

with the thick rain forest I came from: Never ever go to Thailand, it's not safe there! Everyone wants only your money. The food is crap and unhygienic. There is no such thing as toilet paper. Not even fork and knife are commonly used for eating and rarely available. Bed sheets and underwear are still unknown. The climate is excruciatingly hot and moist all year long. It's full of prostitutes, con artists and people who's favorite porn is Home(hydro) Alone 1&2, thieves, terrorists, extremists, cut-throats, mobsters and drug dealers!

Oh cry me a river luches. That may help explain your boorish and disrespectful treatment of others, but it's no excuse, nor any reason to just accept it.




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RE: pH drop

Are you two going to ruin every thread with your constant back and forth bickering.
It's really repulsive.


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RE: pH drop

Hey grizzman, I get a little confused although they both mean well by me so, we did add Cal-Mag to this batch, why not. Finding more and more damage from the storm. Two young pecan trees broke at there guys, the list goes on, wife is talking with insurance people, we'll see. The pH was down to 5.14 this morning, it's just crazy.
We may scrap this crop and go for a hard chemical cleaning and a fresh batch of roots, something is real wrong.
"Doing 10 with no Chance of Parole"


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RE: pH drop

Hydro and Lucas with all due respect don't you two think that hijacking threads and turning them into troll fests can be destructive to this forum?

I would think that some people come here in hopes to learn something but then turn away when they see bickering. Would be nice to see a bit more humbleness or at least take the arguments into its own dedicated thread.

-Souousee- Correct me if I'm wrong but can't bacteria blooms cause drastic PH drops? Well I hope you get it sorted out, sounds like its a real doosey.


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RE: pH drop

jmoore3274
You shouldn't be so quick to trade one evil for another. Don't underestimate just how many people leave the forum (new or old users), and are afraid to post in a forum when someone constantly treats people with so much disrespect as luches. If you want to just tuck your tail between your legs and crawl away when someone punches you in the face (as to not disrupt the conversation going on around you), be my guest. I won't stand for it when people treat me that way. And this has been going on with luches sense BEFORE I ever first talked with him way back in 2009.

He treats people with disrespect constantly, and calls it his sense of humor. That wont go away by ignoring it, and people wont stick around when their treated that way either. Then he just cry's about it when people do it right back to him, and he counts on the sympathy vote from people that just don't know him nearly as well as I do. That's why he goes away and comes back in cycles. He's just hoping for a new batch of users that don't know him yet so he can cry about being mistreated back, and try the "oh woe is me" card for their sympathy vote. So he can continue his mistreatment of people unimpeded.

Trust me as soon as luches starts in, the thread is over anyway. Would you stick around if I always treated you that way? Are you going to just tuck your tail in and sit back and enjoy the mistreatment if I did that to you??? Well, if you would that's fine, but not me. Either way, people will leave the forum. Weather it's because they don't want to be mistreated, put down, and just generally treated with disrespect, or because the forum is filled with threads of people standing up for themselves. Either way it's a shame.

What if every time you went to a particular store, auto mechanic, barber, (hair dresser for the ladies) etc., they belittled you, talked down top you, and just didn't treat you with any common courtesy? Are you going back? Just because a forum is online is no different. People aren't going to stick around online under those circumstances either. So again don't underestimate just how many people are lost because luches won't treat them with common courtesy.


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RE: pH drop

Maybe people are afraid to reply to threads because they feel you'll write a two page soliloquy belittling them as you do every time lucas speaks. Don't get me wrong. I don't agree with Jean-luc's tone either. Also, I'm not saying you don't have a reason for what you're doing towards him. Just that you need to step back and consider the impact you're having on this forum as well.


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RE: pH drop

I have no delusions that my responses to luches have impacted the forum as well. Particularly for those potential new users that don't know the history of what's going on, and have only seen a couple of the threads. I don't want that either, but I'm not willing to allow someone to be so disrespectful toward people (especially to me), and not say anything. His tone isn't the only thing, it's also the mentality of not allowing people the common courtesy of speaking their mind (especially when he disagrees). That's called censorship, and I don't accept that. In this case speaking your mind is a threat to luches superiority complex, thus he gets upset and wants to censor peoples opinions, even when he does agree he wants to take credit for it. Accepting censorship is not in my nature, nor should it be in anyone else either. If that's allowed, the point of the form us useless anyway.

There are only 2 options, either sit back and just accept disrespect and censorship, or stand up for yourself. Either way the forum is going to be affected. Sometimes you need to cut of your leg in order to keep the disease from spreading. Worrying about how much it's going to hurt is only short term thinking, because no matter how much it hurts at first, it's for the best in the long run.

If your neighbor (or anyone you knew) was constantly abusing his/her kids, just ignoring it only allows it to continue (even if it's because of fear of breaking up the family), I would hope you would report it. That's the right thing to do, otherwise your just contributing. Here there is no one to report it to, but again not saying anything just allows it to continue, and I would just be contributing to the effects on the forum that way as well.

I need to be able to look myself in the mirror and be able to live with the consequences of my choices (whatever they may be). And maybe it's just me, but I can't look myself in the face knowing I didn't at least stand up for myself. I know it may not seem like it, but I do hold back quite a bit, and I always refrain from using any bad language no matter what. The best I can do is try to do what's right, and hope things turn out for the better in the long run.


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RE: pH drop

Well, two days and the new batch of nutes have gone from 6.64 to 5.45 and all but one plant look like it's over. And that one has not added a leaf or bloom in weeks. We have to admit defeat and go for a chemical cleaning. We intend to change the bare root supplier just in case they have some pathogen in their soil that is causing this. What we fear is that the problems we have had is what weakened our plants system and let some bacteria take over. We are not scientist and don't care to be. Thanks for letting us sound it out here and "all" feedback is appreciated.
"Doing 10 with no Chance of Parole"


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RE: pH drop

Strawberry plants are very susceptible to soil born diseases, and cant be washed off of the roots. I'm not saying that's an issue in this case, and not saying it isn't, just that it's a reality in any case regardless of any other issues. From what I understand, there are a couple of things you can do to lessen the chances of the potential problem. One is to dust the roots with beneficial microbes, and/or use them in the nutrient solution. Or use plants that have never been in soil before. They do sell them, but will probably be much harder to find (I haven't tried finding them myself yet). Of coarse you can start your own seeds, but most varieties wont produce much, if any fruit the first season.

P.S. I don't know if I posted these links for you before or not, or of you have seen them. But in case not here are a couple of links about growing hydroponic strawberry's.

Berry Bonanza: Growing Indoor Strawberries

Sorry I forgot the other link ("Guide for growing hydroponic strawberries") is blocked in this forum but you can find it this way. I have both of these articles posted here in another forum as well : Hydroponic Strawberries & Tomatoes DWC


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RE: pH drop

Hydro,
I agree with you that Lucas has a bad habit of being nasty with people. I have read some of his reply's and they seem to be very trollish and aimed at getting people stirred up. When people take that type of approach I just give them no mind and ignore them. Trolls are like a bad rash. If you leave it alone it will eventually go away.


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RE: pH drop

jmoore3274
Then luches isn't a troll, he never goes away. I've known him far too long, ignoring him just makes the frequency of his disrespectful and stuck up reply's much more frequent. But we all know stuck up people, the big problem is when someone has their own thoughts that he disagrees with, is when he goes over the line. Then because of his superiority complex he tries to put them down by all means necessary, so they will be afraid to disagree anymore, and just give up and/or go away.

When that's allowed he controls what people are allowed to say. If people are not allowed to disagree, then he effectively censors the forum. If you don't speak out for your right to have a different opinion, you just allow him to censor the forum, feed into it, as well as become partially responsible for the censorship of it. Just like if your neighbor was abusing their kids, and you don't say anything.

If you allow the forum to be censored you don't have a worthwhile forum anymore. It just winds up as a place of what luches thinks. That completely defeats the purpose of what a forum is for in the first place. It's supposed to be a place where people can freely share their thoughts and ideas, as well as their experiences (not only if luches agrees).

Besides his pompous stuck up attitude that I could accept even though I don't like (as long as they don't get outright disrespectful). I will defend my right to have a different opinion, even if he doesn't like it. That's when he really starts to get nasty. If I don't put it right back at him, I allow him to censor me, as well as every other user of the forum. And again if anyone censors the forum, the forum is useless. I'm not afraid to ruffle a few feathers to try to keep a forum useful, and it a place of free speech. Even if it's not the easy road.

I'm the only one luches has met that wont just give up (that I know of), that's why he gets so frustrated with me. I don't have that ignore it and it will go away mentality, I'll take it toe to toe until the end (as far as he wants to take it). He may go away for a while, but he will be back when he sees enough new users that don't know him yet (he always does). If only one person stands up for their right of free speech, then he has a good chance of controlling the forum. But if he has to deal with many people standing up for themselves, he will be much more likely to find an easier forum to control. Either way he wont change.


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RE: pH drop

HH,
Lucas originally came here under the name jean-luc. and he was spoken out against by a number of members here, including me. At the time he said he was leaving and not coming back, but alas his ego stroking won out and we had lucas. the affect of those early argument were a number of long time members no longer coming about. now we don't have many long time members.
I'm not saying you shouldn't speak out against what he says, just that when 4 out of 20 posts are about the topic and the rest is you two Bickering, its more detrimental than Jean-Luc's pitiful attitude.


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RE: pH drop

It's unfortunate that luches has driven away many long term members, I can certainly understand why though. And from the first forum I know him from, that's his goal their as well (at least the ones that don't agree). He want's to drive away all the strong opposition, silence any remaining members from speaking out (such as what you say he has done with you), and the ones that are defiant (like me) he tries to turn the forum upside down with to keep control of what he thinks is his. Because like a abnormally jealous boy/girl friend, his mentality is "if I cant have them, then nobody can." So he tries to ruin the forum in order to get the others to try to get luches opposition to become submissive (for fear of ruining more threads), that way he can retain control of his subjects. They don't realize the threads, and entire forum is ruined anyway when people are not allowed to freely share their ideas and opinions.

I'm mot talking about speaking up for yourself, getting tired, and going away. That's pointless and has no good long term effects. All that does is for the people who are left, feel they just have no choice but put up with it, or just leave. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT LUCHES WANTS. That way he continues to control what's said in the forum. But had your long term members stuck it out and defended their rights of free speech, I have no doubt that the forum would be a much better place now and/or in the future.

I respect your opinion grizz, although I completely disagree with it. That is, your thinking that bickering threads is worse than a forum where people are not allowed to have different ideas and opinions than luches, and be able to freely express them. That's why your long term members left, they didn't want to fight every time they spoke. That how luches got rid of the opposition. As I said before, a forum where your not allowed to have different opinions is a USELESS FORUM. You cant make a forum any worse than useless. Your long term members realize the forum was becoming useless, so they left. What they didn't realize was that they could have turned it around (likely by now) if they had continued defending their forum, and right of free speech (without being disrespected for it). Them giving up was the result of short term thinking, and that's unfortunate.

I know this is the world wide web, but I grew up in the U.S.A., and here we have the right of free speech (within reason). I don't claim to be perfect, but I try to treat others with common courtesy and respect. In return I expect the same back. I don't think that's to hard to do, or to much to expect, plain and simple. I don't expect anybody to stand up for me, but I will stand up for myself. Even if nobody else wants to stand up for their self.



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RE: pH drop

a thread full of bickering is just as useless and being unable to speak. Even now, what we're discussing has nothing to do with hydro.
I still speak, I just ignore jean-luc.
And the freedom to speak does not require respect or common courtesy in order to have a voice. that is you projecting your morals/beliefs on jean-luc. he has as much right to flame the forum as you do. All i'm saying is flaming the forum does no good for the forum.


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RE: pH drop

Yes a thread full of bickering isn't much better, I said that before when I said a bunch of bickering threads wasn't any worse than a useless forum. That's also what I meant way back when I said don't be so quick to trade one evil for another evil. You just want lushes evil instead because for some reason you can accept that one. If you still speak freely you must agree with everything luches says because I can't remember you ever chiming in with a different opinion when he was involved.

Common courtesy and general respect is absolutely necessary for a civil conversation from both sides. Without that you just have a bunch of yelling and insults flying back and forth. If it wasn't, there would be nothing to complain about. In fact I'm showing common courtesy and general respect towards you by allowing you to express your opinions without being disrespectful to you, even though I can't agree with your opinion on the subject. You are welcomed to try to change my mind, but I doubt you ever will.

If punching someone back after they punched you is projecting your morals/beliefs on them. Then yes I will punch the morals/beliefs right back in their face. Just because it's verbal abuse makes no difference. I will treat verbal abuse with verbal abuse, and I will treat physical abuse with physical abuse. But I won't just sit back and accept being abused.

Sorry that you clearly disagree that there are hundreds, possibly thousands (over the years) of people that are afraid to chime in because of luches verbal abuse. And if that's acceptable to you, then the loss of potential people from the bickering threads should be acceptable as well. I'm not interested in a forum where people don't want to speak because of fear of being put down. I want to here and discuss their opinions, cant do that when their afraid to give them.

All I'm saying is when someone is disrespectful to me, I have the right to be disrespectful to them back. And even though it seem like you feel the ill effects on the forum from luches being so disrespectful with his verbal abuse is minimal, I respectfully disagree. And nobody should tell anybody to just accept being abused because it's inconvenient for them. I don't expect anyone to stand up for me, but I will stand up for myself. I wont be able to respect myself otherwise.


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RE: pH drop

Dear god, things haven't changed a bit since I was last on months ago!!

Hey, doctors have different ideas on the correct treatment for a patient, and hydroponic professionals also have a similar problem.

Whats the difference? Doctors at least have the decency and are humane enough to come to at least an agreement on disagreement..... Please guys, offer your viewpoint and help, then leave it be. No need to make sure the other people are corrected every time they write something you don't agree with....

Just trying to be a neutral bystander here, but I am sure someone will attack me : /


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RE: pH drop

here, here.


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RE: pH drop

Hi.

I have exactly same issue, made even worse by my really tiny reservoir (3.2 liters Aerogarden). Here is what GenHydro tech support told me about this issue

Yes, due to the high levels of phosphoric acid in the bloom formula and the lack of minerals in RO water, the ph will drop as time goes on. Was this gallon of nutrient you mixed being run through a small hydroponic system? If so, some of the water is lost to evaporation which also causes the nutrient solution to become more concentrated and the ph to drop. If you top off every day with small amounts of regular tap water, it will help control the ph. Also, when you first mix your Flora Series, you should set your ph a tenths of a point higher than your target. So if you are trying to achieve a ph of around 5.8 for bloom, set it initially at 6.0 - 6.2 and it will settle around 5.8 after several hours and should stay there for at least 24 hours. Then once it falls below 5.5, adjust back up to 6.0 - 6.2 again. Ph swing is typical when using RO water. If you want to try mixing some of your regular tap water with your RO water until you have a ppm value of 80 -100 you will see a noticeable improvement in ph stability. Or you can add some CalMag to your RO water until you achieve a ppm value of 150 - 200 and get the same effect.

So, my question is - does anybody knows hydroponics nutrients that are buffered for use with RO water ?


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RE: pH drop

Xevus
Sounds to me like the problem is mostly due to a small water volume, simply because of fluctuation in nutrient concentration due to plant uptake, transpiration, and possibly even just strait evaporation. It also sounds like the balance of all 3 parts (Gro/Mircro/Bloom) for the flora series nuts your using might be heavy on the bloom (and probably light on Gro as well). Larger volumes of water are much more forgiving with respect to nutrient and pH fluctuations. I'm not sure what it is exactly, but I believe the buffers in each part of the flora series are in different concentrations/elements. So uneven mixing of 3 parts could be contributing too.

The RO water shouldn't be an issue, unless it's because your using such a small volume of water. I have never tested pH under of one gallon of solution. But the pH of the flora series nutes are very stable with more than 5 gallons of water using RO water. So much so I rarely need to adjust the pH even to begin with when I first mix the nuts, and depending on the size of the plants (and the water volume to plant size ratio), the pH stays set at about 6.0 for up to 2 weeks, and without ever needing to readjust it. That's using nothing but RO water and the flora series nutrients mixed equally (10mL each of Gro/Micro/and Bloom). I have also learned that if mixing the nutrients on the weak side, that may affect the pH as well. Again each part has a specific buffer ratio, and when mixing weak there is simply less buffer to do the job.

But the original problem in this thread was about a sudden change from having no pH problem for months, to one day the pH just started dropping daily when nothing had changed. And RO water was used from the beginning, and from well before the pH dropping ever started. So unless something suddenly happened to affect the quality of their RO water, the water itself isn't what caused the change.


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