Another angle

6-4-10

Still only one squirt every three days

Gotcha

That is possible, but the inaccuracy in the description of "NON NUTRIENT" leads to falsehoods and misconceptions.

Peace often overrules the "truth".

Truer words was never spoke.......

Especially grizzman - say, what kind of loving kindness were you actually practicing with georgiii lately? But with willard3's stone cold two liners I am almost as much inspired.

Welcome to the club, both of you! LOL

Now you know why you have so many problems.

That's it on 6-6-10. This is in a Pumpkin maker.

These are Hydro-Buckets

This is a picture looking thru a foot of water. That water had been in there 4 months. I don't know about ya'll but I'm happy.

More pictures of the Jack O Latern pumpkins

"That Hydro-Pail held another plant not a pumpkin. Those pumpkins displayed are just over a month old."

That's good to hear, they were very small and under developed to be even 2 months old.

"There's no secret. You think your the first to ask these question?"

Perhaps not, but you have not answered any questions at all.

"Everythings been explained several times, look it up."

NO I won't, if it's so difficult to explain, that even you cant look it up and post a link to the post that explain everything, it's simply not worth my time. Fact is, there is no mystery here. Even the one you are trying to hide is no mystery. Fact is you hide the fact that you add nutrients every few days, and just call your system a a NO NUTRIENT solution. When actually you just add the same amount of nutrients as everyone else (but kind of like a time release pill), just in slow doses with your squirts. The only mystery is why any one would believe you don't use nutrients. If you don't want to disclose the details that's fine with me. Just don't be surprised if nobody believe you.

Here's an Atlantic Giant pumpkin in a Hydro-Bucket. Same method using the Non-Nutrient system. The squrit of fertilizer goes into the insert cup. Not into the bucket. That sand in the bottom is from the perilite. Doesn't that water look amazing clear. Look at that branching of the roots.

I don't even really care if the Chinese gov is interested, but perhaps if there is something to it (like you think) then you may want to contact NASA. They are doing research in hydroponics and if they were interested, then I would be a interested as well. But only from an verified NASA link, and/or from a .edu link. Good luck with it.

I guess I did

I don't claim to be a self profit in the world of hydroponics, but I don't just believe everything anybody says either simply because they want you to think they are either. That's experience. Experience also tells me that people who have nothing to hide are generally happy to share there progress with others, and not just hide or sidestep the details. But again if you are happy with your progress, I'm glad for you, that's all that maters. I'm happy with mine, although I don't have the funds to build and expand all I want to.

"I don't claim to be a self profit in the world of hydroponics, but I don't just believe everything anybody says either simply because they want you to think they are either."

This child gets even better with the next statement.

"Experience also tells me that people who have nothing to hide are generally happy to share there progress with" others, and not just hide or sidestep the details."

You haven't even been here a month and your making demands about what, your being to lazy to look it up. Everything, everything I discuss is sent with pictures and explantions. To me your just another teabagger "who doesn't want to believe". Hydroponics as you know it is done. It's going the same way as the horse and buggy. Pratice it all you like. Come back when you have something interesting to say or talk about. Other than that who cares.

"

You are the one demanding I look up the info you say you posted. You know where it is, what it's called, what it looks like when you find it. And if you cant even find it anymore, then why would I have any luck (even if I wanted to). Did you start this new post just to tell people to go look it up? Or just to showcase some 4 month old almost clean water? That isn't very interesting, or informative.

"Come back when you have something interesting to say or talk about. Other than that who cares."

That is funny because that's exactly what I was thinking.

Going by the couple of posts (in this thread) you apply the nutrients to the growing medium. But that doesn't answer any of my original questions, and I'm simply not easily impressed by pictures of almost clean water. But hay, that's fine don't disclose any of your secrets for me, I'll wait for a creditable source to post the information (if it ever makes it that far). I simply have not seen or herd anything that would even remotely make me want to give it a try.

I am here for the same reason that everyone else is, to learn things I don't already know. I don't know if your system works or not, but I'm not as easily fooled as others might be. I need to be convinced HOW it works first, before I would even consider thinking about it. And your only reply is "go look it up". I won't just believe something just because someone demands that I do. That's why I have been trying to give you the opportunity to to post the details, in order to see if there is some validity to it, not just for me, but mostly for others that might be interested. The fact that you wont even post the link to the thread that explains it all (as you clam), only strengthens my belief that it doesn't exist.

So far all I know (from your posts) is that you use buckets, perilite as a growing medium, tap water in the buckets, and you squirt a undisclosed amount of a undetermined nutrient solution on the growing medium every 3 days. You have not even said if they were hydroponic nutrients or soil nutrients, just what you have on hand. And to top it off, you give it a misleading title like a "no nutrient nutrient solution system"

Again I am here to learn things that I don't already know, I simply have not learned anything new from your Dark Garden posts, except you are happy with the look of the water in the buckets, and I am simply not as excited about the look of the water as you are.

The other was the rain water issue.

What would you say was wrong with this plant.

I started a honey Dew because of the long fruiting time. Just a test of the system to see if it's stable over long periods.

Another picture of the Crisum Sweet watermelon

That's all thank you

Pedantic compared to what, just fallowing along like sheep. If I'm pedantic because I don't just believe because I'm told to, then I'm as pedantic as it comes, and proud of it.

From georgeiii's last post I have learned that he uses a 1 litter bottle to mix the fertilizer in (interesting but hardly useful info), using a 2 litter bottle wouldn't make any difference. Do you think the Chinese government would spend a dime for that kind of info? As well as "I don't bother measuring it" type of info, I think not. But if georgeiii can't even answer the easy questions, than how in the world would he ever be able to answer the hard questions.

Like why does the salts not buildup on the growing medium in his system like they would in any other hydroponic system. Or how does he get around the fact that plants only absorb the elements they need, and simply leave the rest of them. That would lead to an excess of unused elements building up in the growing medium, and both will lead to nutrient lockout. And how does he get around the biological fact that plants need the right pH range to be able to absorb the nutrients they need.

All are things that are well documented from creditable sources. But he just expects everyone to forget about them and just believe because he says so, and without any useful details at all. Oh I forgot, he mixes the nutrients in a 1 litter bottle. Just getting a plant to grow is not difficult at all, it's probably harder to kill one. So just because they are growing is no great feat. Long term truly healthy plants are my goal. If it were me, I would do a side by side comparison (traditional hydroponic methods, vs the dark garden method), of the same type of plant, and same age. That's what I would have done. I would also have taken notes. So sorry for being so pedantic that I need some realistic information before I just believe what anyone tells me.

P.S. I would have given it a more appropriate name, something like "Time release nutrient application method," or something similar.

"Like why does the salts not buildup on the growing medium in his system like they would in any other hydroponic system. " (this is not your system they don't compare I mean you keep trying too)

Simple because it's constanly being diluted. The fertilizer is trapped in a small space that constantly being flushed by fresh water.

"Or how does he get around the fact that plants only absorb the elements they need, and simply leave the rest of them."

Again easy, because it doesn't asorb the fertilizer by osmois it absorbs it by adhesison. there's nothing left to build up.
Look at how small the amount is that you have to use that's part of the reason there's no build up. This is not your grandfathers method that you can just copy and claim youself creditable. this is what you call invention thank you very much. What you do is pollution to me in comparison. I didn't ask anyone to forget anything. Hold on to your teabag mentality all you want. Cherish it dearly, then just watch it fade away and another thing YOU DIDNT INVENT ANYTHING or this and wasn't asked for your advise on naming anything. Will this help you???? No your going to stick to force feeding plants using using acid. Just like your grandfather.

You are the one that posted the picture of the "This is a one liter water bottle," not me, and those are your words, not mine.

""Like why does the salts not buildup on the growing medium in his system like they would in any other hydroponic system. " (this is not your system they don't compare I mean you keep trying too)

Simple because it's constanly being diluted. The fertilizer is trapped in a small space that constantly being flushed by fresh water."

You have stated that there is no need for flushing, now you say it's constantly being flushed. From where, I know, go look it up (your answer for everything you don't know). You must always remove the flushing system before you take pictures. I'm not talking about the water in the buckets, I am talking about the growing medium. If it's constantly being flushed it would flush away the nutrients as well. I know, it's not my system and I am not allowed to compare (because you say so), nutrients just do different things in your system because you say so.

"Again easy, because it doesn't asorb the fertilizer by osmois it absorbs it by adhesison. there's nothing left to build up. "

What book did you get that from? Definition of Adhesion

("Adhesion is any attraction process between dissimilar molecular species that can potentially bring them in "direct contact")

If it adheres to an object (like roots) it's not in liquid form any more and thus not available to the plants. But let's say (for the sake of argument) I beveled that for a few seconds, if they adhered to the roots what keeps them from adhering to the growing medium? And just how do you get the plants and nutrients to defy the laws of physics in your system? I know go look it up (your answer for everything), simply because you don't know. Also that would imply that it does' not matter what you squirted on it the plants would simply ingest every bit of it, that's the only way there would be nothing left to build up.

"This is not your grandfathers method that you can just copy and claim youself creditable. "

My grandfather has been dead for about 20 years now, and he never knew anything about hydroponics that I know of. I have never claimed that I was a creditable source. That's the difference between you and me, you demand that you get the respect of being a creditable source. I don't, I do however expect answers before I just believe. The problem is you cant tell the difference.

" I didn't ask anyone to forget anything. Hold on to your teabag mentality all you want."

I hate tea myself, unless it has a lot of sugar in it, then what's the point? You just expect everyone to just believe you, while you only skirt the questions. That's what I call, forget what you know and just believe me (I'm creditable). You can demand all you want, but the only thing that will satisfy me is the truth.

"YOU DIDNT INVENT ANYTHING or this and wasn't asked for your advise on naming anything."

OK sorry, you don't want any advise on naming anything. That's fine, keep the useless name. Although if you didn't refer to it in such a misleading and in accurate way. people wouldn't be so disappointed. They also would be much more likely be interested, and open in the first place.

"Will this help you???? "

Providing no information is supposed to be a help? The problem is you don't know the answers. Either that or you are keeping them a secrete so they don't get stolen before you wright your book. If you are keeping them secrete I would understand that, but you have never said that was what you were doing, so how would I know it.

There sometimes are things and people in life, you best walk away from - and, there truly are more easier to clean fish to fry ;-)
Obviously this means totally ignoring them.

But one thing Georgiii, I asked you myself (some time ago) for more transparency about your technique, which I believe you only deliver bit by bit and sparingly, perhaps for a reasons.

Most importantly; some people deliver and contribute useful and interesting stuff (which is a subjective matter of course) or try hard and often are indeed helpful with problems and issues of others. While some from another mold seem to only exalt themselves with disputing and questioning other's credibility repeatedly and insistently through all kinds of, - apparently well elaborated, but in fact fallacious and a way too intrusive argumentation.

Unfortunately this is not a singularity but common practice in many forums. I believe it's mostly born from sentimental damages as repeated rejection, ending up in envy and unsatisfied greed, which is in fact the stuff that these individuals tend to call affectionately "their experiences". This profile often goes along with the use of a double standard. Which in fact consists in being selectively and exaggeratedly polite with some members they would expect something from. While clearly intolerant or even rude with others (falsely anticipating repetition of previous conflicts, frustration and deceptions) that seem to have any sort of conflicting views or opinions and are not likely to deliver anything that relates to their personal satisfaction, but more grist for their mill soon. ;-)

There sometimes are things and people in life, you best walk away from - and, there truly are more easier to clean fish to fry ;-)
Obviously this means totally ignoring them.

But one thing Georgiii, I asked you myself (some time ago) for more transparency about your technique, which I believe you only deliver bit by bit and sparingly, perhaps for a reasons.

Most importantly; some people deliver and contribute useful and interesting stuff (which is a subjective matter of course) or try hard and often are indeed helpful with problems and issues of others. While some from another mold seem to only exalt themselves with disputing and questioning other's credibility repeatedly and insistently through all kinds of, - apparently well elaborated, but in fact fallacious and a way too intrusive argumentation.

Unfortunately this is not a singularity but common practice in many forums. I believe it's mostly born from sentimental damages as repeated rejection, ending up in envy and unsatisfied greed, which is in fact the stuff that these individuals tend to call affectionately "their experiences". This profile often goes along with the use of a double standard. Which in fact consists in being selectively and exaggeratedly polite with some members they would expect something from. While clearly intolerant or even rude with others (falsely anticipating repetition of previous conflicts, frustration and deceptions) that seem to have any sort of conflicting views or opinions and are not likely to deliver anything that relates to their personal satisfaction, but more grist for their mill soon. ;-)

So you are saying that the flushing is being done by the humidity in the buckets as it rises through the bottom of the growing medium, as the air bubbles are continually being introduced. Then the excess salts (nutrients) are flushed form the growing medium keeping them from building up.

Well I see two problems, even by your own statement,

"See perilite would rather hold on to the nutrients (heavier liquid) than water (lighter)"

It's only a heaver liquid because the salts don't evaporate, becoming a denser (heaver) liquid. The salts (nutrient elements) are still building up. In other words the perilite is not holding onto the nutrients because they are heavier, it's holding onto it because the nutrients (salts) wont evaporate. That's simply a law of physics.

Second, even if the humidity coming up from the bottom can be a factor, the water will evaporate, but the salts wont, again that's the law of physics (not mine). So unless there is an exit strategy for a liquid (not vapor) flushing, there will be a buildup.

"If we didn't have roots in there yes it would eventually disperse into the water but because of the adhesion between the root and the perilte the nutrients move onto the root from the perilte which draws water from (side facing the outside) behind diluting or flushing each piece of Perilite in turn till it's all asborbed by the roots and the Perilite is clear."

This still only works on the assumption that every one of the element molecules are eventually adsorbed by the plant (because they are not going anywhere else), in order for there to be nothing left to build up. But that does not explain how every other plant on the planet only absorbs the nutrients they need, and leave the rest, and the plants in this type of system behave differently.

Here's that picture of my first Atlantic Giant pumpkin flower. There's lenty of small male flowers coming up around it. So I don't see pollation as being a problem. I can see lacement is going to be a problem. Something else I noticed.

This plant is nearly three weeks behind the others. It's just growing in a medium mix in a SWC. It's larger, more robust leaves. Understand this isn't a contest for plant size it's for what it produces.

Also, if they are interested in your growing technique then your style must have a benefit. Other than the pH not having to be set, what is your advantage? Are you using less nutrients therefor lowering costs to grow? Are your plants healthier? Fruits larger?

I know you only use the amount of water your plants need. Truthfully though water cannot really be wasted... there is too much of it!

Plants are looking good though man, keep it up.

In fact, I'd like to make an experiment and test your method, - simply as part of many other experiments I have made since I am involved with hydroponics. Are you willing to give (more) precise guidelines for such experiment or test I (perhaps others) want to make?

In fact I would like to have at least some of the technical requirements at my disposal, as in:

1. amount of perlite per "growing area" (approximately is good enough)
2. recommended water volume per plant
3. more precise "Squirt" concentration and frequency
4. used fertiliser/nutrient/product specification (not absolutely required)

5. A simple recap of the technique, to be sure that I have fully understood the principles. In fact in a way that I can ACTUALLY reproduce it. I mean, that's what matters here: understanding the technique a bit like in a ebb/flow, or any other system that is based on certain principles. In fact knowing and properly understanding all features of any system are key of being able to REPRODUCE and use it.

T.I.A.

We have obviously given interest to your idea since your first post here at GardenWeb. Why don't you shed some new light on us, please?!

I like many others am actually fascinated with the possibilities your use of hydroponics has in urban areas and with the consideration of less water/nutrient waste. I say, if you care about the planet, why not help us to save it my man!

I looks like to me you got modified mini hempy bucket hanging over water filled buckets. The bottom of the hempys hold the small amount of ferts you feed them. the mods to the hempys allow the roots to grow into the water bucket.

This is what i think. Am i close ?

Keep it green

You don't need to answer to any of my question from now on, as I know where to get the whole dossier first hand! ;-)

PS: thanks again chriscclay for the hint!

Then plant the plant in the smaller bucket with the perlite growing medium. Place it in the hole of the lid you cut for the larger bucket. The water level in the larger bucket needs to be high enough so the roots can wick up the water from it to the plant. At first you will probably need it to be high enough so it just touches the growing medium, but then you can lower it as the roots grow. The bottom (large) bucket needs an pump and air stone (like for fish tanks) to add oxygen to the water, as well as to keep the water circulating to keep algae and other things from growing in it.

Now, insteed of adding the nutrients to the water in the bottom (large) bucket making it the nutrient solution like a typical hydroponic system, georgeiii clams that he does not add any nutrients to the water at all. He adds his top secret "Squirts" directly to the perlite growing medium instead.

The reason georgeiii doesn't answer any of the questions is simply that he cant. He can't explain why plant biology and the laws of physics don't apply in his system. And he wont give details of the top secret "Squirts" because then when people try the system and don't have good results he will have an excuse. He simply says that you cant compare, and try to send you on a wild goose chase for some non existent thread that is suppose to explain everything.

The whole thing is like a late night infomercial. It may look good as they talk about on the TV, but after you pay the money and get it home, you begin to realize that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

I just call things how I see them. No hard feelings man we are here to help each other.

I am very intrigued in your simple method of hydro. If you give more details on your system we could replicate your system. In turn help prefect it or see short comings that you don't see. we all could work together to make your system more efficient/productive. can you go into details how you make you inserts? It would be great if you could also give us some pics of the bottom of the inserts where the roots hang out.

Have you thought to add a root stimulator (water soluble) to water pail to help increase root mass. That might help with the recovery of your Jack o Lantern. Or prevent future shock if this was to happen again.

keep it green

It does not really show the bottom of the inserts (although there is nothing special about them), if you scroll up in this thread a little above about half way to the set of pictures: Posted by georgeiii (My Page) on Tue, Jun 15, 10 at 1:51

In one of the pictures you can see the roots hanging down in the water in larger bucket.

He just cut a hole in the lid for the plant to stick up through. I cant tell from the pictures, but I would also cut a slit in the side of the lid so you can take it off without hurting the plants stem. The lid only helps keep in moisture and keep organic material as well as pests out of the growing medium. A light proof lid would block the light that allows all that algae growth on the growing medium.

This really has my interest. I can see why people get hooked on growing pumpkins. The other thing that has me excited is....yup another pumpkin.

The problem is do I want to keep the rule of no root inground and have cloning points which are really extra containers strung out along the vines. Last year I had two and got 5 really nice size pumpkins. Or, or just stick it in that mound of growing left over mix from last year. I mean the whole SWC. Would that be cheating? I’ve been placing that mix there for awhile for some reason. In fact I’m going to have to move all the pumpkins around to give them room.
You know something funnier, a third flower just appeared. Three in a row. They seem to be forming out of a clump of flower buds. Now I begining to worry over pollination.

I was wondering though, how often are your plants subject to diseases using this method (No nutrients in bucket) and from what I've seen in the photos, it looks as if you're transplanting from the DWC into soil at a certain stage. Is that correct?

As for homehydro, time for you to shut up and go away you annoying, loud-mouth, know-it-all twat. No one cares and no one's listening. Don't like what georgeiii's doing or how it's being done. To bad. Get over it and get a life.

With that said, how's everyone doing? New here and so far it's a pleasure lol.

I don't choose to use bad language in a public forum, so I WONT reduce myself to that. ALL my points are not about liking or disliking what "georgeiii's doing, or even how it's being done." They are all about helping others to do the same if they wish. He can brag all he wants about how great everything is, but that doesn't help anyone to duplicate it. From the pictures anyone can duplicate the buckets and system, big deal.

But he has never disclosed the top secret nutrient solution he uses for the "Squirts." He also has never explained how the plants in his system can absorb the nutrients they need at any pH no matter what it is (that's plant biology). He also has not been able to explain what happens to the nutrients the plants don't need (absorb), that will cause a buildup of them in the growing medium over time. That's where the squirts go and there is no actual flushing, and any diluting does not git rid of them, they'll remain there until the plants either absorb them, or they are really flushed form the growing medium (that's also plant biology). The salts don't evaporate (that's simply a law of physics), as he apparently claims how the excess salts/nutrients are flushed or diluted.

He just wants to make clam's on how great his system is, but refuses to let anyone know how/why it works so great. Does that help anyone? Lets assume it works as great as he says it does, then he's not doing anything other than just patting himself on the back. But does it work as great as he says? He's the only one who really knows, and he refuses to give any real details. Just a few pictures of some small plants in buckets that anyone and his brother can build, and he claims great things. If that impresses you, I have some shiny string that will keep you occupied for weeks.

If you think you have all the details you need to get good results, why don't you give it a try. Perhaps then you can forge the way and post those details for the others that might like to try it, AND GET GOOD RESULTS.

I do understand the frustration with this thread though and, like you, I'm here to learn and hopefully, be able to help. I'm not sure why the nutrients are so secret especially if the claim is they (and the system), can be used to basically stop world hunger by providing large yielding crops. At least that's the gest I'm getting from the whole Chinese thing because let's face it, if a billion Chinese can thrive on this particular system, then the whole world would be able to too.

I'm guessing the 'secret' nutrients are nothing more then the Flora series with possibly a booster such as Hydrogen Peroxide for higher oxygenization. Also, the way the system is set up, the bucket will still have 'run off' nutrients from the cup. Just basics of gravity so even though there are only a few squirts every 2 - 3 days, there will still be nutrients draining into the water due to the run off allowing the roots to 'feed' until the next 'squirt'.

I, myself, am interested in learning the exact methods or procedures utilized in this system so I can attempt to duplicate the results. I'm a Chef growing various fruits and veggies hydroponically indoors and need all the help I can get to keep crops large and healthy.

Bottom line is that it needs to make sense to me before I just believe what someone tells me, that goes for anything, even the auto repair shop etc.. Any cop will tell you if the story doesn't make sense, or they seem to have something to hide, there is probably something wrong somewhere. That is all I'm more or less trying to say. I am not claiming that georgeiii system does not work, just that he has not been willing to share the details that would explain why, or so others can try it for themselves.

P.S. No hard feelings.

I also have considered this and agree, but never brought it up because it seemed a fruitless to even try. But without any testing on the water there is no way to tell how much (he will never disclose that info). Also there are claims of 4 month old water, does that mean the plants never drink up any of it? And he never adds any water. If water is added it cant be 4 month old water them, it would just mean that it has been 4 month sense he cleaned the bucket.

I agree, if what georgeiii is working on is indeed a financial cornerstone for him, I would never ask he comprise that either. If it isn't, simply stating he prefers to safe-guard the secret is cool too. It's more respectful than simply dodging questions and using cryptic answers to further prolong confusions. Just my two cents ;)

I can't argue those plants look nice though. From the stand point of pumpkins anyways. I've never really had good luck growing them for some reason but then again, I've never tried them hydroponically. One thing this thread has done is seriously sparked an interest in me to try lol.

"Also there are claims of 4 month old water, does that mean the plants never drink up any of it? And he never adds any water. If water is added it cant be 4 month old water them, it would just mean that it has been 4 month sense he cleaned the bucket."

If the roots are submerged, and I have to think they are to keep from drying out causing the plant to die, there could be no possiblity the water lasted 4 months without either

1)being drank
2)evaporating

to the extend it would need to be topped off. I don't see any fogger or mister in the bucket so those roots are submerged. Even if the water did last 4 months, I'd have to think it would be severly polluted with lethal PH levels. From what I can see in the photos the system is set outside which means dirt, bugs, algae, salt build-up, and who knows what else, would be floating around inside that bucket. Just from opening the lid to check the water and roots allows dirt and small bugs to enter so I find it extremely difficult to believe the water remains pure for 4 months. That water would be in serious need of being changed just by the first 1 month alone lol.

I'd have to agree with the 4 month mark being the time he would clean the bucket. Again, this is just speculation because I know I'd never wait 4 months to clean the bucket just for the fact it's outside and too many contaminates are present. But that's just me. I'm more of a rather be safe than sorry kinda guy lol.

As far as his secret sauce goes for nutrients. I now firmly believe it's Miracle-Gro. I have the same product and use it for my outside plants. It has that same light blue tint rather than the darker color HP solution mixture has when diluted. So yea, I'd definitely say it's Miracle-Gro.

I do agree that the plants in the pictures seem to look good at this point, but they are far from mature plants, and I doubt they were started in those buckets as seeds. I simply can't tell anything about their care from the pictures. And just because you don't see any obvious problems today does not mean there wont be any problems a month from now. That's why I am not impressed with such new plants.

"If the roots are submerged, and I have to think they are to keep from drying out causing the plant to die,"

Yes but I don't think they are completely submerged. Just like in a NFT system only the bottom of the roots are submerged. This allows the root system not to be suffocated. The exposed roots allow the root system to get the much needed oxygen/air they need to be healthy. The roots above the water line get moisture form the submerged roots from a wicking action that brings up the moisture to the main root-ball (and possibility humidity). In any system I built the water level would be easily adjustable.

"Even if the water did last 4 months, I'd have to think it would be severly polluted with lethal PH levels. From what I can see in the photos the system is set outside which means dirt, bugs, algae, salt build-up, and who knows what else, would be floating around inside that bucket. Just from opening the lid to check the water and roots allows dirt and small bugs to enter so I find it extremely difficult to believe the water remains pure for 4 months."

From the pictures the bucket don't look to be light proof. Just translucent, that would for sure allow algae and other unwanted things to grow in them over the long time. If I were building it, I would build it so the water level in the buckets is adjustable, as well as recycling. The water would not go through the growing medium, but from the top of the buckets into the bottom, with an adjustable overflow. My buckets would also be light proof. Of coarse, like you I would clean the buckets out regularly also.

Depending on how many buckets I had going, I would also probably set up a nutrient dispensing system. Like a drip system but closely timed to dispense just what I wanted. But probably not for less than 15-20 plants. I would also set up a flushing system, like a drip system (but just fresh water), although again not for a small number of plants. For a small number of plants I would probably just pour about 1/2 gallon of fresh pH adjusted water on the growing medium in each bucket every couple of weeks or so (just before the nuts were added). I would likely have the air stones in the main water bucket, instead of each individual one for simplicity. Also it would be continuously recirculating so there would be plenty of oxygen and water movement. The water would also bge easy to filter.

As for georgeiii's secret sauce it does have a striking resemblance to Miracle-Gro, although not all hydroponic nutrients have the same color from my experience. The virti-grow nutrients have a light green tint, and the GH flora series have a light brown tint. I have also used straight Miracle-Gro in a hydroponic system to grow hydroponic plants. They did grow for months, but slowly you could tell they were not healthy. That is another reason that I am not impressed with the look of immature plants (hydro nuts or not). Getting them started is not most peoples goal, but growing them to maturity is (as well as mine).

But I am not really that interested in the exact nutrients he uses because I would expect most any hydroponic nutrients would work good if they were formulated for the right plants. Although it would be nice to know because then people could do some comparisons. I would be more interested in the concentration of the solution. Is it 1/2 strength, full strength, double-triple-quadruple strength, or even more.

In order to know, I would need to set up identical setups and test all the different possibility's, check results and try to refine it from there. Well that's just not something that I'm willing to do just because someone clams that it works perfect, and simply wont give any details on why it does and/or how he does it. I've got too many other projects in mind that I don't have money for, that I DO want to do.

All and all, there are many issues that I would address before building such a system. Especially just on someone that I don't even knows say so, as well as when they refuse to give details for no apparent reason. Bottom line is that things may not always be as they seem, and just trusting what someone expects you to believe can get you into trouble or cost you a lot of time and/or money. Ask questions first and believe later (when it makes sense). But I wish anyone who wants to give it a try luck, and hopefully they will be willing to share the details.

If you remember the issue was the lack of Nitrogen getting to the plant because of being diluted by rain water. There is no system per say just buckets. A bucket got to much rain water. Just two of them. I emptied some of the water out replaced it, and just 10 days later you see the change. This is simply cause and effect. Same goes with alge. Alge are the birds of the plant world and what do birds tell us. I mean besides that their spores fly on and fly off what good is alge on the surface of your mix. It has a very good one in my system. But guys I have other things to write about. The Garden is taking it's summer shape.

"This is a picture looking thru a foot of water. That water had been in there 4 months. I don't know about ya'll but I'm happy. "

That statement was just underneath an image of water in a bucket, near the top of the thread. And it is true that algae needs something to eat in order to grow, although I am not convinced that none of the nutrients ever leach their way down into the water buckets. From the picture of what he claims to be the 4 month old water it certainly looks like something's growing in it, even on the air stone. I don't know how often it rains in his area, but if he changes the water after every rain because of the water flushing the nutrients down into the buckets. That would flush away the nutrient buildup also, witch is something he claims is not necessary.

That's interesting although I don't see it as a difference between Hydroponics and Non- Hydroponics. Algae cant get a foothold in moving water, the air stone keeps the water moving, thus the algae at bay. So when the air stone stooped, the movement of the water stooped also, thus all the algae growth. The fertilizer weeped thru just as it always did, just now you see the effects because the water movement stooped. Also algae cant grow in darkness, so it tells me the buckets are not light proof.

That's interesting although I don't see it as a difference between Hydroponics and Non- Hydroponics.

How many times have you come on here to say you don't understand and then get bitc*hy about it.

Algae cant get a foothold in moving water, the air stone keeps the water moving, thus the algae at bay.

What you don't live by a river or stream??? If you didn't use black tubeing on your system alge would show you how much it hates to move. You want to EARN someone resect than stop saying stupid things.

The fertilizer weeped thru just as it always did, just now you see the effects because the water movement stooped.

What you see is the difference between Hydroponic systems. See the Alge is nearly 3/4 gone in just a few days with no water change. Let me tell you again. No water change. How about you? What would you have to do if Alge took over your system. And last but not the least is the next turn of teabagging.

Also algae cant grow in darkness, so it tells me the buckets are not light proof.

No what it should tell you is that I can grow plants of varying types, of fibers, vegetables, medical, in clear buckets on a sunny day with no alge build up. Not to mention the Garden can be on multibule levels growing all different types in the same system. Did I mention no ph worries. Yes I did several times and you don't understand. Haahhaa oh my soul to have to read about you knowing all the rules of biology, physics, botony. Well, I know the rules of Chaos, yes there's rules to bring about the mixing of Orders.
The toxicity level of the three main root types air, water and medium are directly proprotional to their reproductive capacity and inversely porportion to their degree of differenation. See that's the secert sauce you keep talking about and you didn't even have to go look. But then again it's been mention in numerous thread before this one. Look I came on because your giving such bad advise and I don't want you to chase people away just cause your loud ;-'

Oh, you haven't seen bitc*hy. I refrain much, because this is a public forum. It's not that I don't understand hydroponics (not that I know everything), it's simply that you make claims but cant explain them. Then you just get demanding and expect me/others to just believe you simply because you say so. Even if your system works as perfect as you claim, you are not here to help anyone with it. Your just here to pat yourself on the back.

"What you don't live by a river or stream??? If you didn't use black tubeing on your system alge would show you how much it hates to move."

How funny is that, I don't know if you were trying to be ironic or not but that's funny. As for a river or stream. There are factors involved like the speed of the water flow, how much light is getting in and the amount of available food source. There will be algae growth all around the edges where there is moisture and not much water movement. And NO it does not need to be perfectly still to grow algae. Although, stagnant water will grow much more algae than any moving water will be able to in the same conditions. Even in the fastest flowing streams, there are places where the water movement is minimal. Go camping or fishing sometime.

As for the use of black tubing, the water in the tubing is not running through it 24/7. When the water stops flowing there is still moisture and humidity in the tubing. That's when the algae builds up, and it does not just wash away when the water flows over it again, it just gets er-moistened, then continues to grow.

"You want to EARN someone resect than stop saying stupid things."

No, I'm not interested in earning someones respect, especially from people that I don't even know. The respect of my friends and family is what's important to me in that department. And I can say the same to you about saying stupid things. Although it's not my style to be so vain as to think I'm the only one who knows anything.

"See the Alge is nearly 3/4 gone in just a few days with no water change. Let me tell you again. No water change."

This would be interesting if it were true. I am not saying it isn't, but with your track record of just demanding people believe you for no reason other than you said so. I doubt it. Even if you posted pictures I would just believe that they were pictures of other water, or cleaned in-between pictures because of the way you are.

"No what it should tell you is that I can grow plants of varying types, of fibers, vegetables, medical, in clear buckets on a sunny day with no alge build up."

I can too with air stones in the water.

" Did I mention no ph worries. Yes I did several times and you don't understand. Haahhaa oh my soul to have to read about you knowing all the rules of biology, physics, botony."

Yes you mentioned it many times, but never explained it once. If you think you can re-wright all the rules of biology, physics and botany, then give it a try, and good luck to you. But just because you write it doesn't make it true. Heck, I can write my own book, then I guess everything I said would be true also right?

"Well, I know the rules of Chaos, yes there's rules to bring about the mixing of Orders. "

Well your the only one who knows them, you simply don't want to share.

"But then again it's been mention in numerous thread before this one."

Except those threads only exist in your world.

"Look I came on because your giving such bad advise and I don't want you to chase people away just cause your loud"

That's really a good laugh. I don't make claims that don't make sense, and then refuse to explain them. Your just mad because you don't have any answers for any of the REAL questions, and anyone who doesn't just believe you, you call loud. The bad advice is all the claims you make without being able to explain them. You just give riddles and skirt the questions. That's bad advice!

I don't claim to know everything, but that doesn't mean that I don't know anything either. And like it or not I do have a right to speak, just like anyone else (even you). If you want to trade insults I'm perfectly willing to take that on. You can call me/others every name in the book, but that wont help you become a real person. I am personally willing to deal with that type of attitude. Simply because I don't believe it's right, and I wont let bully's tell me what to do. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm willing to defend myself.

In fact everyone is a fool of one kind. To realise everyone is - and eventually (most importantly) what kind one self is, that's a big step towards recovery and improvement I believe. Then again, some people would never ever want to know what kind of fool they actually are and going on and on with the same strategy of self-denial and trying to looking smart, no matter how far off track they were. Which often consists in projecting any suspicious things–in–themselves they are about to discover, into others as soon as they would be revealed. That's the top shelf fools, indeed! LOL

I have never claimed to know everything (do I need a disclaimer with every statement?). But that doesn't mean I'm stupid either. If I were, I would just believe what anyone tells me without question (as some people want), and just fallow along like sheep. Where I come from there are no stupid questions if you don't already know the answers, even if you do know the answer there is nothing wrong with confirming it. And nobody can make me feel stupid for asking questions. In fact, the only thing that would make me feel stupid is just believing without asking questions and getting satisfactory answers. That would be stupid. Too many people just sit on the sidelines and let bully's make their decisions for them. Or they simply don't ask questions because they are just to afraid of what others might think, and are just afraid to stand up for themselves. So they sit in back of the class and never learn anything.

urbangardenfarmer
To me it's just a discussion, and I didn't make the claims. From what I've herd and seen so far about his so called system, I would agree there is nothing great about it. Although I disagree with the theory that just not saying anything would not be entertaining it. The way I see it, that would just tell him that I/others just believe everything without question (and I don't). When one makes claims, they should expect questions. How many people need to waist there time and money trying the so called system just because they are afraid to ask questions. I'm fine taking the heat for asking the questions. Then if they think it's worth their time and money, at least there's more than just one side of the story to consider.

But the joke I was telling in celebration of the "great progress" of this thread, is quite particular as it is in fact about mere ABSURDITY, - not actually about someone in particular, some group or any minority or selective individuals. Well, unless someone takes the bait, is indeed acting (reacting) even more absurdly, actually identifies with it and even feels hurt by the truth in it LOL! In other words, I am merely throwing a funny and absurdly looking hat into the room. Whom ever pics it up and to whom ever it fits, may just keep it on and win the day ;-)

But if you are trying to say you meant no disrespect to anyone, I will accept that for now (even though I cant say I truly believe it). But that wont stop me from asking questions.

I don't believe this thread will ever make any progress. I can't answer the claims for georgeiii. After all, it's his system, not mine. Nor do I make the claims on how great it works (I don't even care if it does). But I'm not going to be afraid to ask questions, or make comments when things don't seem right.

P.S. When I look in the mirror across the room (like in your joke), I can respect myself for that, I don't care if anyone else does or not (that's there problem).

-ethnobotany

Hey! How dare you! Leave my hat alone! After 150 boxes of Cracker Jacks and $20 (for shipping), I'm the proud owner of that multi-colored beany with the whirly top and I don't appreciate it being thrown around after what all I had to go through to get it! (*picking up beany..."My preeecioous. He's meanseses he iss. GOOOLEM GOOOLEM.")

I didn't have to change water just placed a seeds in other inserts and this is what the new root system looks like. They even got little watermellons growing.

The other things are the Corn Pumps. 4 stalks of Ruby Red sweet corn per bucket. After 30 days the plants used half the bucket. 2 1/2 gallon, that less than a gallon of water a month per plant.

P.S. When and if (big if) I ever decide to duplicate it, just like you I will call it what I want, even if it's deceiving and inaccurate. I don't care what you (georgeiii) ask. Good luck sewing anyone over it.

Here’s another.

Gatta a laugh when I think about what you can grow with this on a shelf. I even show people how to build the shelving unit out of PVC pipe and press board. Even the kind of lighting they should use. Wait, wait, how many forums are you on. Do we have to wait again while you think about that too. On my side let’s see. Container Gardening, Hot Topics, Access Gardening, Vertical Gardening a few others not mentioning. But one I do want to mention is Garden writing. There’s even tragedy in my life. I’ve lost the woman I love. Homie you’re a failed blogger. Yes. Homie in order to talk about life you have to had had a life. All of it’s up’s and downs all arounds. That’s how you can figure methods that people aren’t restricted to old ways of Hydroponics they can no longer afford. And make it look good while your doing it too. And, so many ands. I’ve already emailed all of the last five years of all I know to Haiti and the United Nations so I won’t be feeling the urge to "sew " anybody soon. My vision is to creation of a Cadre of Gentleperson farmers for the Urban environment. Farmers who grow on concrete, asphalt, rocky ground, sidewalks, roof tops, school yard, railroad tracks, contaminate ground, down streets, back yards and up walls. My vision is to provide a school of thought that would allow people to grow their own food, fiber and bio-fuel needs in an urban setting using the recycled products that we commonly use for storage and recycle. Even my motives you won’t understand because you think in terms of teabaggers "sweing" people over a hole in a bucket. See it makes me start smiling again. Homie I’m looking for Regina and if I have to become famous to find you woman so be it. All the rest is just trinkets compared to growing old with you. So Homie really if you want to push the old oil based ways I won’t try and stop you really. It’s a free and open forum where information is freely given whether it’s understood or not without people who think of "sweing " people over their survival. Like I said this is going to tickle me all day.

"Create your own. All I ask is that you call it what I named it."

Or what?

There is nothing wrong with trying to reduce the reliance on petroleum products. But recycled does not mean petroleum free, neither in the product nor the re-manufacturing of it. And there is no petroleum in the nutrients I use, but like grizzman said, I'm sure there was some used in the manufacturing of the raw elements. As far as I know, there is no plastic products on the planet that petroleum was not used in it's manufacturing. I don't clam to be a fanatic about environmental issues, although I do use recycled products when I can.

We recycle everything we can, I even have a drawer full of old battery's waiting to get recycled, along with 2 old non working computers, and one monitor in the garage waiting to be recycled. When it comes to anything usable that we don't want anymore, we don't just throw it in the trash to go to the land fill. We will take the senior center, or salvation army for them to re-sell. Also the humane society has it's own thrift store that they use the proceeds to help the unfortunate animals with, we have donated plenty of stuff there also. We even buy stuff from these places. When the TV in my room went out (by the way that's in the garage waiting to get recycled also) I bought a used one from the senior center for $10. We've also bought plenty of clothes and other stuff from all of them. Our dining room table was bought at another one I didn't even mention (the Hospice).

Again I don't clam that I do everything possible to help the environment, but I think it's quite lame of you to just assume that nobody does anything unless they tell you all about it so you can judge them on it.

I couldn't stand to see her being torn apart anymore, and I knew her parents had so much control of her mind, that I needed to step aside for her sake. That hurt for many years, and I still wonder how she's doing, and if she was ever able to get out of that situation. To this day I have not found anyone to replace her. So don't think your brand of suffering is any worse than anyone else's. It's good to have something to take your mind off of it, especially if it's productive. We have all had a life, but most of us have learned how to move on. Good luck with that.

Good luck with everything georgeiii and have fun with what you're doing.

Bottom line, he wasn't trying to help people or just share, he just wanted to use misleading terms and descriptions so people would think he he was a genius for finding a new way to grow plants (just so he could pat himself on the back). All the secrecy was to keep people from finding out there really wasn't anything new at all. The more he denied it, the deeper in a hole he got. He even would try to draw attention away from the points with personal insults, and unrelated rants. But it just didn't work, so the nastier he got (like an animal trapped in a corner), and that's what all the bickering was about.

All he had to do was tell the truth, and I would have been happy to pat him on the back for growing anything myself. But lie and be deceitful, and that just wont happen. I even gave him many opportunities to say the secrecy was because of legal issues (pending patents etc..). I suggested it myself to give him an out, but no he still wanted to say he was trying to be helpful. Yet there wasn't anything helpful about his reply's.