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radmaxntx

New to Hydorponics

radmaxntx
14 years ago

I've always been impetuous but when I started think about hydroponics I did a couple of weeks of investigation on this web site and many others. I have arthritis and things dont grow very well in the soil where I live, So I thought hydroponics might be the hobby for my wife and I to delve into. I had a couple of 40 gallon water tanks and a bunch of large coffee containers. I designed an ebb and flow system, which is the type most places recommend for beginners, that consists of a 3" piece of PVC that encapsulates a piece of ¾" PVC. Each grow pot has a ½" inlet hole big enough to allow water head buildup and an overflow tube of 1½ PVC. The water drains completely when the pump cycles off through the unsealed water inlet. I was hoping to expand the system and built in that possibility. I dug a hole in the yard for the tank to set in so the 3" PVC return line would be near ground level.

All was well UNTIL!!!!!

I called someone in Houston to get nutrients and pump and he started querying me about what kind of lights I was going to use, the size of refrigeration unit I needed, what kind of air stone I neededÂÂ My response was an oblivious HUH.

Background: I live on the gulf coast of Texas; this is not the hottest time of year but close, 97º high, 78º Low. VERY High humidity and IÂm not going to build an air conditioned green house. I thought of deferent methods of cooling the water in the tank, but I donÂt think slamming a couple of ice cube in the tank is going to cut it.

Is anyone in the coastal area of the Gulf of Mexico growing successfully outside hydroponically?

What equipment is required,?

AND

Why can vegetables grow happily in 90º soil but not grow in 90º water. IÂve enclosed an early picture of the system out of the ground.

Thanks to all you posters in advance.

Ahhh... i couldn't figure the picture thing out. maybe next time.

Comments (15)

  • radmaxntx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    the tank is going to set in the ground upto the water return pipe.

  • jean-luc
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You can put the reservoir under/in the ground, but it might be a bad idea in winter when temperatures drop. You'll not dig it out in winter, will you? You could simply have it a little bigger and put it a little further in the shadow and at a cooler place. White color and/or styroform protection might save a few degrees as well. In most cases that should do the deal. I live in Thailand and hence deal with a tropical climate. The water temperature reaches the limit in hot season, but I don't need any underground reservoir, though.

  • grizzman
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Once you get 8"-12" below the surface, the temperature of the earth is pretty stable. around 60°F, I believe. That is why you can grow in soil in hot areas while hydroponics can be a problem.
    That's also why people bury their reservoirs. to keep the water temperature down. why install an AC system, when the earth does a fine job itself.
    The gulf coast region is not going to have much of a freeze issue, so leaving the tank in the ground shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure you leave somewhat of a lip above the surface.I remember the torrential downpours in the area. you'll want to provide some means to limit excess water getting into your reservoir.
    a couple observations from my experience. set your system do the bottom of the runs are 30"-40" above the ground. this will help limit bugs getting on your plants and it makes it easier to look at the underside of your plant leaves for said bugs. Also, find a local greenhouse or landscape supply company. buy a bag of soluble hydroponic solution, a bag of greenhouse grade calcium nitrate. those coupled with some epsom salts will keep you well stocked with nutrients for several years.
    What plants or your thinking about growing? some plants do better in certain systems than others and some plants can't really be grown in the same system with others.

  • radmaxntx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ya, I used to believe that urban legend about the deeper you go the cooler it gets. My father told me the same thing sighting Carlsbad Caverns as precedence. I pushed the I believe button for years until this problem rolled around and I had some reason to question the belief and did some research. Ground temperature varies at the surface with respect to changing outside conditions. The deeper you dig the less the change is according to 1 site I found until you reach 30 feet. At 30 feet the ground assumes the annualized temperature. In my case that would be approximately 72º. But I really cant dig 30 feet. But if I could the other problem is that as you transfer heat from the surface water into the ground its temperature begins to rise such that the average temperature after 1 season maybe 75 or 80. During the winter you might be able to circulate colder water to actually lower the surrounding ground temperature to give you extra run time on your system in the spring.
    I was really introduced to these thermodynamics when my brother in-law and sister installed a ground coupled heat pump in theyre 3000 square foot house. It ended up they had to bury over a mile of pipe 10 foot in the ground to make the system work.
    Granted a house is going to absorb and emit allot more heat than a hydroponics pump that only cycles 3 to 5 times a day.
    Alas, I digress the reason Carlsbad Caverns is a constant 55º is because that is the average annualized temperature of that area and it's over 30 foot below the surface.
    BUT, Thanks all for the posts Ive decided to plug a long and try to get a hole thats around 15 feet. I think thats doable. Thats still going to give me water in the mid to upper 70 range. I may only be able to grow a spring and fall crop. Well see. It would really be nice to live in an area that has great growing conditions all the time.

  • grizzman
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you dig down a couple of feet and feel the dirt. It'll be markedly cooler. and you're only cooling a reservoir. no need to dig 15 feet. The Earth makes on helluva heat sink so that little bit of hot water that presses against the edge of your tank is not going to drastically raise the soil temperature long term. Maybe a degree in the heat of day, but over the night it'll come back down. I've seen greenhouse installations where they only place a tank about 8 feet to the bottom of the water res and it'd drop the house temp 15 degrees in the heat of summer.
    Granted there local conditions can affect things. extreme drought or extreme moisture can certainly affect the heat exchange rate. And in far northern climates, where the frost line is 5 feet below the surface, it'll definitely get colder in the colder months. you don't need 60° water and a quick heat exchange as you'd need in a house. water that averages 75°-80° will work fine. Maybe not 'optimally', but your plants will grow. I leave mine in a grey trashcan elevated above the surface. The daytime temps around here currently range from 88° to 94° with night temps around 78° and my tomatoes and peppers grow fine.

  • jean-luc
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If I'd build a new green house, I'd plan a underground tank as well. But I'd rather opt for a indirect cooling system. Which means I'd use the water from the underground tank(s) as cooling water for the main tank. It would allow me much more flexibility and I wouldn't need to worry how to replace nutrients, clean, maintain or whatever with the underground tank. There could even be several such smaller tanks, that I could gradually use for cooling that main tank or more reservoirs.

    My actual setups are located at several spots and work with single reservoirs that run with different nutrient compositions and concentrations. I don't see how I would dig in 8-10 reservoirs underground...

    Outside temperatures also range between 88-94° F and hence my nutrients heat up between 25°-28°C (77-82°F). Well yes, that's a bit warm but in the limits if there is good oxygenation. The climate is what it is and I need to plant with seasons anyway. Night temperatures are not exactly low enough for most tomatoes, Salads will bold early anyway, etc. To do it all "well" I would need a expensive green house with cooling system (fans and sprinklers, sprays)... which I cannot afford anyway.

    If you have a outdoor setup (only protected from rains) you must consider the heating up of your nutrients, when passing through the setup. If you do not calculate well, you may end up with a slowly but surely heating up underground reservoir, and you'll not have ideal temperatures for your work and money at the end. If you invest that much, you should do it in ways you have the real thing BY THE BOOK , and not ending up with a complex and expensive toy that's only cooling the water down by just one or a few degrees. OR, use concrete modules (canalisation type) , just dig'm in two foot or 3 and save a few degrees.

    Here are fresh picks of my results with nutrient temperatures of 82° F (28°C) Capsicum Chinense. Outside temperatures around 90° F (32°C). They look healthy and in great shape, don't they?

  • radmaxntx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    WOW thanks for the input. I guess i was just for some affirmation/reassureance that if my reservoir temp gets up to 80 im not going to loose my crop. I'll post some more current pic of my setup. I've been thinking of easy ways to get a heat exchanger about 12 feet under ground. I'm thinking that's doable and will increase the size of my reservoir TOO. I'll post later and let you know how i did it and if it works.

    OBTW how did you include pictures in your post?

    thanks again.

  • joe.jr317
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Why can vegetables grow happily in 90º soil but not grow in 90º water.

    Soil isn't usually 90 degrees when it's moist. At least not several inches down. Even still, it can get pretty warm. And, when the soil temps do get warm many plants slow or even halt growth and flowering. Fruiters like tomatoes and peppers tend to get blossom end rot due to an inability to uptake calcium. Consistent irrigation is key in commercial production to maintain profitable yield. Halted production is not profitable. Some gardeners plant tomatoes really deep so that extra roots will form and the original root ball is well insulated from temp fluctuations. Does the temp change? Yeah. But not immediately and not as high. Don't research by internet. Buy a 16 inch compost and soil thermometer and find out for yourself. That's what I did. I realize you live in a hotter region with more sun intensity (though you also have shorter days), so your soil will react differently. Plus, your soil may have different properties. Is it really loose or super dense? Hence needing to do your own little study to get the real proof.

    In hydro, the temps change in the water much more drastically. Vegetation doesn't show signs of some nutrient deficiency due to higher temps and fluctuating pH nearly as readily as fruit does. The pics above are of fruitless peppers. Ever had a pepper plant with beautiful foliage and crappy peppers due to drought? The leaves in the morning look fabulous just after you water, but those peppers will still look like giant colored raisins (okay, not quite that bad). My point is that great foliage doesn't mean great fruit so the above pics may not be an indicator of results you could encounter later with the part of the plant that matters most. Never the less, those plants will likely do well because peppers seem to do fine with warmer water. At least mine didn't seem to suffer under similar conditions.

    My romas suffered blossom end rot with res temps of 85 degrees over a few days. The reservoirs were getting too much sun. Your upper 70's might not be ideal, but they won't be a killer by any means, either.

    The killer I could see is the medium temps. In Texas I would think that those coffee cans will cook the heck out of your roots unless you plan to run the cycle every few minutes to control temps. I know of a couple of hydro growers in Florida that use a drip system with styrofoam containers for this very reason. Of course, they can't take chances. Theirs is a commercial production. I know others use drip systems in big round white tubes.

    One last thing. Why not use ice on occasion? I fill two half gallon milk jugs 3/4 full of water and keep them in the freezer. Squeeze some air out so the water can expand without breaking the plastic. If temps go to 80 in the reservoir (or I know they will because of the weather conditions), I plop in an ice jug.

  • radmaxntx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I love the idea about using milk bottles with frozen water. Great idea. That should limit the effect of nutrient dilution as well. I'm planning on insulating everything too. How many plants could I expect to grow with 50 gallons of nutrients?
    Thanks again

  • grizzman
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If I've done my math correctly, I've used approx. 100 gallons thus far to grow 16 peppers, 2 egg plant, and 2 tomatoes. Of course, they're not done yet, but I don't believe I'll quite double that amount.

  • jean-luc
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just a little explanation about the pics I have shown earlier, to avoid any confusion or misunderstanding. I have chosen those pics of immature pepper plants for two reasons: 1st because they are fresh pictures and not from my archives. 2nd, because if I have learned something from growing peppers in hydroponics, it is that you can clearly recognize winners from the start. I've grown hundreds of different pepper species since - and I have never had any plants with beautiful foliage and perfectly healthy looking that didn't have much flowers or pods later. It doesn't happen in this climate anyway. If there is some blossom drop or poor pod production, it shows up together with other aspects and conditions (mostly classical deficiencies) of the plant. In my experience, with the self-developed nutrients I use, and under my conditions, without any exception! If (on the other hand) some people feed peppers with unbalanced nutrients, too high Nitrogen diet for instance, or what ever the reason might be- they may experience very different outcomes, though.

    But well, the following pods from various pepper species, ranging from Murupi, over Fatalii, to Lemon Drop, Bode Laranja, Madame Jeanette, etc, grew under the same conditions as described earlier, during the past years. About 8-9 month of the year, temperatures range around 28-33° C in this region. So, conditions and nutrient temperatures (without any cooling) do range as well between 25 and 29°C.

    I am just describing my conditions and showing my results. It only shows what I get under actually not ideal nutrient temperatures and at least it tells us something about relative adaptability of these plants to these conditions.

    Somebody out there who may still believe, that perfect foliage and healthy looking of (immature) plants grown in a little too high tempered nutrients, may eventually end up in little blossom and poor crop production? I have an extensive archive of a few thousand pics of various hydroponically grown chilies, gherkins, tomatoes, gourds, herbs, etc., under the VERY SAME conditions.

  • jean-luc
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Some more practical reflection about nutrient temperatures and solutions:
    The system one uses may have very different impact on temperatures or plant conditions.

    A drip and recycle system (especially with large Dutch style buckets) may actually simulate conditions that are comparable with soil culture.

    With a NFT system, running nutrients will probably heat up most, due to sun (heat) exposure of the runs.

    With a ebb and flow system, a good insolation and protection of a huge main reservoir may be sufficient.

    With a large and concrete/brick build deep water system, the construction will (may) be partially underground and cooling itself. But with the roots completely immerged in the nutrient, the temperatures MUST be right at all times. I believe that deep water might be less forgiving in case temperatures are not in the range.

    Another inexpensive option for cooling the nutrients is to use a second hand car cooler (with fan) as a heat exchanger. But here it is strongly recommended to have a separate cooling circuit instead of directly cooling the nutrients. Nutrients might be (actually are) corrosive for the car cooler.

  • grizzman
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nice peppers Jean-Luc.
    I might add that even under less than Ideal looking plants, you'll still have productive plants. I have a massive bunch of peppers getting ready to ripen and, as you might recall from a previous thread, I was experiencing a nutrient deficiency and stunted growth. But they still produced.

  • joe.jr317
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Agreed. Nice peppers. And also agreed that less than ideal looking plants can produce well. It only proves my point. Vegetation isn't necessarily an indicator of fruit production/health. I wasn't attacking jean-luc's system or anything else. It's just that plenty of people in the hydro forum have posted about having excellent foliage with no fruiting, small fruits, and BER and thus are confused because they incorrectly equate great foliage with a guarantee of great fruiting. In fact, many topics have been started by people that are confused over their great looking plants dropping blossoms (even after hand pollination). A person new to hydro could get the wrong idea when viewing a healthy plant in vegetative stage as evidence of a productive plant unless they intend to eat pepper leaves.

    Like I said very clearly, those conditions are fine. . . for peppers. And you are sharing evidence, jean-luc. But, the original poster didn't say (unless I missed it, which I might have) that he is growing only peppers. Tomatoes are much more sensitive to water temp changes due to their heavy feeding. My plants that developed BER looked great. There is a pic of them floating around here somewhere of the plants in a lush vegetative stage. Sure as heck didn't stop BER due to my neglect in insulating the reservoirs from direct sun.

  • jean-luc
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Proposal: let's try to stay tuned, focussed and as objective as one can be with a discussion of the kind. In my opinion this is about information, exchange and understanding, eventually even solving problems. Without that goal in mind, bringing up arguments, proof or evidence is rather useless if not a loss of precious time...

    1. High (or rather up to the limit) temperatures may have an impact on plant growth, uptake and other aspects of plant growth. From my experience and under my conditions, for peppers, tomatoes and many others, - Nutrient temperatures. up to 28°C are not affecting health, growth and crop production visibly or notably. STILL, temperatures around 24° C are so far proven IDEAL and probably better if not best.

    1A. Tomatoes, don't and can't grow well under high temperatures anyway. They especially do not like high night temperatures. If you want to grow tomatoes successfully in a hot (or tropical) climate, you need to anyway cool down your environment (greenhouse) and improve general conditions. In this case, nutrient temperatures will drop (or adjust) automatically, - or, nutrient cooling is part of the plan anyway. My tomatoes here do fine as seedlings and about until maturity, but They are not as productive as expected under natural conditions as described. But until productivity they seem to grow well and seem not to be much affected by nutrient temperatures. They unfortunately are also prone to attract pests and deceases in the heat. In my case, best is to start growing them with the nearing of cool season. And definitely cope with seasonal growing only.

    1. Indeed many hot peppers or bell peppers show some deficiency signs although they produce well. It is because peppers are very picky with conditions, stable PH and most importantly adequate nutrition. It is also because compared to tomatoes, the foliage cannot stock that much substances and elements (nutrients). The fact that some or many pepper plants do not look perfectly healthy and have no "BBC rain forrest TV-show" foliage, - and still produce well, doesn't mean or proof AT ALL, that really good and healthy looking plants will obviously produce less. There is no such reverse correlation to be expected!

    3. If there are growers who have pepper plants with nice foliage and good general health, BUT problems with blossom drop or little yield, it is (to my knowledge):

    A. NOT- or rarely related to high nutrient temperatures.
    B. Rather a problem of too vigorous vegetative growth due to an imbalance (too high nitrogen vs. too little Potassium, lack of Ca or Mg) in nutrition.
    C. Due to climatic problems, as lack of heat, light and air humidity.
    D. Due too a bad timing between the flowering stage and actual plant maturity. Because first blooming stage of most peppers is indeed timed: after a period of 2 month to 80+ days, their natural cycle changes from vegetative to flowering stage. If at that moment in time conditions are not adequate or plants not mature enough, flowers will drop and there will be no or little pods. In many related cases, stem- and branching strength isn't sufficient strong enough to support high yield. This obviously depends on actual plant size versus fruit size.

    Conclusion: In some cases it is then related to C, in others cases B, but very rarely to high nutrient temperatures!

    4. Of course, not all of my pepper plants look like the one I showed earlier. Yes, they also have a general and quite normal tendency to show some deficiencie signes at blooming- and fruiting stage. Simply because all resources and available nutrients are then gathered and used for the purpose of pod production. Obviously mobile elements tend to move out of the leaves first, to sustain fruit production. Less mobile elements slower and eventually later. BUT this should actually NOT happen during vegetative stage and growth. If pepper- or any other plants show clear signs of deficiency (or look rather unhealthy) during vegetative growth, there is something wrong with nutrition or PH, or any other aspect around uptake or general conditions. Also, if vigor and leaf quality of plants isn't that pretty before- obviously there will even be greater signs showing up -during blooming and fruiting stage.

    5. Get a closer look at some real pros' performance in pepper growing! They often or mostly have beautifully looking plants ALL ALONG the growing stages, and massive yield as well. For them, healthy and strong plants, as well as nice foliage are synonym with expectancy of high yield. I guess it's better to get inspiration from them, instead of borrowing arguments from some unlucky amateurs' experiences (not meant in an arrogant- but rather anecdotical way), -ain't it?

    Yes, commercial growers are cooling down their nutrients - in case the temperatures get to high, of course they do. All I was saying here was how in my experience nutrient temperatures seem to be affecting pepper- and other plants, when getting up to 27-28, even 29°C. What I was doing here wasn't giving contrary directions. It's just a personal report that may be useful in case cooling nutrients isn't possible or a rather difficult task. Actually how much to worry about it, in case it tends to raise but keeps in the limits ...

    I hope this is all clear now and doesn't need any further explanation from my side, as sometimes I have some other (not necessarily bigger) fish to fry as well... :)

    Cheers Jean-Luc

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