Mike,..
interesting site.
I also consider A.Sadlers footnote in Chanoyu - pg 118, "One might wonder too whether he and other Cha-no-yu masters were involved in the activities of Christianity, the dangerous thought of that day, which sometimes celebrated its Mass in the Tea-room for the same reason as Hideyoshi held his consultations there. It is noted that three of his (Rikyu) Seven Disciples, Oda Yuraku, Gamo Ujisato and takayama Ukon were converts and that Gamo was considered a threat to the Taiko, though he died conveniently young, while Takayama ended his days in exile in Manila."

the ''sometimes celebrated its Mass in the Tea-room" indicates clearly that Christian Mass was celebrated in the Tea-room.
What better place for Furuta Oribe-no-Sho Shigenari to discreetly place a buried pedestal but in a Tea garden?

Kodera may also be considered (Ryuuko-in-ensei-jousui-dai-kouji, aka. Jousui = military strategist) -- at his passing, Shinto, Buddhist and Christian services were held, though he was officially buried Buddhist.

there seem to be too many references that a hidden Christian community existed and that many signs of recognition existed, which may have included the Oribe toro.

I do not yes or no, except that 'something' like that would be plausible/possible to happen. i prefer to keep an open mind until those interested in the subject have time to do more research.
edzard

Hi all

The Photo of Oribe toro above link is fake. It is not even Japanese made. look closely and tell me what you can find .

Edzard;
The site have not so much of intresting.
your thought and writeing is much more fun to read.

one of my text book tell locations of all granite quarry in Japan and texture, color, hardness etc. I have visited Elberton "city of granite" capital of memoerial stone of USA in Georgia.
I know what tools mordon stone mason use and stone cuver of Azuchi, Momoyama era's could have tools....

I am going to read again "Namboroku" it may have some hint(s) .
Christian population in Japan grew from 0 to 750,000 in 50 or so years, Many parts of Japanese life must had great influence of Christianity.

I will call you sunday eveing................mike

Yama san,

I have sent an email to that web site stating claims that the oribe toro is a fake. I will let you know if/what they respond with.

Greg

Hi all
This is the reasons I think it is fake.

1. all stonte lanters of Azuchi Momoyama era, there were no buffing or unable to cut nice and clean. All stone lantern the era used with chisels and hamber.
   The stone lantern 's suface on the web 's phopto is too smooth.

2) The color of the stone lantern is very unlikely come from granite quary of Japan.

This is list of all granite qary of Japan

Hon mikage: hyogo ken Sumiyoshi shi. lightly pinkish
granite

sanshu mikage: Aichiken, Okazaki shi other name is Okazaki mikage ishi. grayish color. similar to Geogia granite color

Shodo Ishi : Kagawa ken, shodo shima/island. pinkish gary, rough cannot polish the stone , easy to curve,ganite come three section of island , fukuda mikage, Oze mikage, oobe mikage.

Ise Mikage: Mie ken miegun

Koshu mikage: Yamanashiken , higashi yamanashi gun/county.
liht to dark gray.

KuramaIshi: kyoto city,Kurama. light to dark amber , use for steping stone ,Kutsunugi ishi, steps/stairs.

Koshu krama: yamanashiken, higashiyamanashigun yamato villege. use for steping stone kutusnugi ishi, staires.

Tanba kurama: same as koshu kurama, hon kurama. not used for stonelanern.

Shrakawa ishi : this is the stone used for many well known gardens of stone lanterns. Gravel of many karesansui are also used shirakawaishi.

Tsukuba ishi: Ibarakiken Tsukuga machi. not used for stone lantern , used for steping stone Kutsunugi ishi , kei seki/stone setting/landscape use. as age suface scall off .
Ikomaishi :similar to Tuskuba ishi.

Seto mikage : seto naikai area , sea shore stone not use for cut stone , or stone lantern.

Inada ishi : dark gray, useed for maily constraction, memorial stone, foundation stone , torii

Fukushima Ishi: Fukushima ken, Iwaki city. pinkish color , some time called Beni mikage niwa Ishi/ landscaping boulder, cut stone

Iwate ishi: Iwate ken, Hanamaki city pinkish , other name is pink mikage

mansei Ishi: Okayama ken Okayamashi; mainly for constraction use.

Kitaki ishi : Okayamaken ,Oda gun, Kitakishima. blueish gray. mainly constaction use.
Anji ishi: Kagawaken anji city. mainly use for constraction, memorial stone.

many of black granite memorial stones/tomb stone are imported from China, Brazil, India ,Norway etc.

far as I can remember of stone lanterns color was whitish gray to dark gray and If left outdoor for handread years, suface of stone lantern are scall off a little and have rough surface and have stained surface by moss, leave sap, and hundreds of years of age.

Most of all , photo of web site of Oribe toro shape is not like honka of oribe toro .

They should call it "newly designed Oribe toro" or "New age Oribe toro"

cross is too obvious on thier Oribe toro. placeing oribe toro which has cross in outdoor garden where many people can see, it is very unlikely . Kakure kirishitan/ hiden christian often used Kannon statues, look like virgin Mary.

Being christian was punishble to death. not easy death, burned live, place chistian in big pot, in water and set fire from botom, speared. most time they are killed in public place, let's peoples to know how he/she is going to die if they believe in God. no reletives or friends come to pick up body(s)............................

sorry I have to go to temple now. please forgive my misspelings.......mike

Yama-san, all,

Well I received a reply from the museum. Frankly I am
very disappointed and almost ashamed to post it,
but, I said I would so here it is.
------------------
Shiro Amakusa wrote:

Dear Greg,

Your `well respected Japanese Gardner` should get another ob if this is his quote:
>>
>>Hi all
>>
>>The Photo of Oribe toro above link is fake. It is not
>>even Japanese made. look closely and tell me what you
>>can find.
>>
Not only has it obviously not left Japan but came directly from a Christian families backyard.

Tell `Yama` thank you for his discussion on the history of Christianity in Japan.

Not bad for a gardner . . . . but he really should find another job . .

Nice try!
-------------------------

Please note that this email came to me before yama-san posted his explaination above.
The person that replied used this address: amakusashiro1@msn.com

Greg

Well, that response from Japan sure was lacking in the scholarship that one might hope for (if not expect) from a "museum." Greg, maybe you could send that individual Yama's follow up, and ask that person for a point-by-point response.

Not that I'd expect any further response to have any greater thought put into it, based on the first one. ;) But, you never know.

Based on the hack job of a response, I don't think Greg reached someone with any credentials. Two references to a career change..... sounds fishy.

"Bureimono" just in case Shiro is lurking. I am sure Yama-sensei has some better descriptions to share.

Michael

Hi all

1) look right side bottom.
if stone lantern is left out door 300 ~400 years, what sun, water, freezing temptreture might to do to surface of stone lantern ?. The bottom right is shining, refelecting light. Can you think of reason why it is shineing?

If christian family kept thier stone lantern indoor for 300~ 400 years it may keep stone lantern shine. But who need stone lantern indoor?
The cross is too obviuos, being christian was not just jail time, it was punisheble to death.
After given a chance to convert to Buddhist, and decided go under ground christian, why he have to show cross and alphabet of "IEUs= Jesus" any one can see ?

2) lighting. If he want to show you product,Do not light back ground. when back ground is lighted , the product get shadow and do not show detail of the product in photo.
That is good way to hide product's detail.

3) original oribe toro were Ikekomi style, stem of stone lantern are in the gorund.

4. Hibukuro. the palce keep light.
   If any of Japanese craftman made wood work of this stone lantern , it will be much defferrent. look carefuly how woodwork is made. space of each square is one of thing you should look carefuly.

5) Hoju; look carefuly shape of hoju. right and left side of curve.

6) most stone lantern sold as Oribe toro design today are took idea from original Oribe toro, which can trace back its history. This oribe toro desgn is much deffrent than most stone lantern sold as Oribe toro in Japan.
no copy right, no patent low apply to Oribe toro ^-^.....

7) hoju and hibukuro are look like same typ of stone, base stone is not.

8) Name of Amakusa shiro.
Amakusa shiro was 14 years old boy who was leader of the Shimabara Rebelion . probebly he/ amakusashito @ mns.com will not tell us his true indentity.

Amakusa shiro san ; you are welcomed to express your opinion your self. If the reputable produt is questioned, most reputable business respond to the question and defend business name and products. How about you ?

Shro san ; will you show us better photos. I can send photos and article to the trade association " Okazaki Ishi seihin kogyodanchi kyodo kumiai " they can tell us better. My cousin married with three generations "Ishiya" stone mason. He is serving local stone mason association as board
member. He can help your Oribe toro article also.

You will find "Shokunin Katagi" of a Japanese gardener.

Greg: Is he trying to sell his Oribe toro ?

Don : Please Do your own reserch , you will find many intresting things and facts.

This is the reason I do not trust some of internet informations. Any one can write anything without printing true his/her name...........................mike

Mike: with due respect, I think you will find that the shiny surface you refer to is the plinth that this object sits on and not the object itself. I agree that it is a bad photograph and the details are not clear but it could be dull aged granite badly posed, couldn't it? As 'secret christians' still exist today I would suggest that their faith did survive persecution and that disguising their own icons of worship as ostensibly Buddhist statues and other artifacts would have been one way of doing so. If you think about it, a style of lantern with no base already used in gardens by this point, would be an ideal way to hide what was carved near the bottom. It is also possible that the cross and lettering were added later by secret christians after the persecutions ended which would still not make it fake in my opinion.

I agree with INK about the shiny area -- It's not part of the lantern, but the display platform on which it has been placed for the museum exhibit.

Mike-san,

Do desu ka? I cannot prove my opinion, so I defer. If I find information I believe you might be interested in interpreting, I will pass it on. I am sure it will take many cups of coffee.

Meanwhile, if you are ever in the San Antonio area, I would like your opinion on some experimental maples, mosses, and groundcovers I am testing. If you have some sake, I will share a poem I am particularly occupied with right now. Also, depending on the political and religious tensions at that time, I might share a special lantern with you. I must be careful as I have a lot to loose....

Arigato gozaimashita.

Mata!

Edzard, you might be on the right track with the tea-master research. The only reply from a sensei refered me back to tea-master Oribe-san. Again I am the carp that cannot leap, trapped by my inability to read.

Arigato!

dp

The photo is hard to see so I lightened it up a bit to reveal some better details.

{{gwi:1006406}}

I do not believe there is any intent to sell the items. If the site did not use the word museum on its website I may never had emailed them. Perhaps we'll never know. Perhaps its not that important. I can imagine yama san emailing the guy that responded to my email. Boy I feel sorry for him! :)

Greg

Clarification:

"I can imagine yama san emailing the guy that responded to my email. Boy I feel sorry for him! (the museum guy!) :D"

Greg

LOL. Understood. ;)

As for the lantern shown, it doesn't look like any Oribe toro I've ever seen. How odd that it is in pieces instead of one complete piece of stone. And, it lacks the familiar shape of the Oribe toro we have come to know.

I think what you are looking at Cady is the section that holds the light and the top notch. the roof part that goes between the two is missing. The stem with the Archbishop of Canterbury carved on it is missing also.
With my dearstalker hat on and magnifying glass in hand I did some Sherlock ferreting: the lantern (or parts of) is on loan from the "Kanda Collection" it says so at the bottom of the page. Mr Kanda was an archeologist, so my deduction (guess) is that this exhibit was dug up in a damaged state and the rest of the story is conjecture, although I wouldn't want anyone to e-mail the museum on my behalf to tell the poor guy over there.

Hi Inky
Kannon statue have been used as Hoily mother by hiden Christians. If Oribe toro was used as hidden Chistianity symbol by hidden Christian ( Japanese= Kakure kirishitan), it is not suprice me.
But again Oribe him self has nothing to do with so called Oribe toro which has Christianity symbol.

There are handfull of Scholars who spent large portion of his life to studied Stone lanerns in Japan and wrote book about it. Scholar like Dr Keiji Uehara , mentioned about Christianity symbol in Oribe toro but avoid to answer yes or no . Author of " Nihon no Ishitoro " Kenshiro Fukuchi is saying there is no Christian symbol in Oribe toro.
My guess is that hidden Christians thought Oribe toro is easy to hide chrisianity in it.
If you know that Mr Kanda wrote book about stone lanters ,history of hidden christianity.
Please let's me to know. (or his reserch work)
I did not realized that reserch take lot's of time ,effort and money untill I wanted to know about stone lantern my self. It is intresting to know how christian's view and history of Japanese christianty see Oribe toro.

mike

I am not sure what I am missing (not unusual), but all I see in this photo is the top piece of an Oribe. It is symbolic of a lotus blossom. (Should there be a forum on symbols and how they might help in garden design?).

Whatever it is sitting on has no relation to any Oribe lantern base that I can see. Perhaps it is only a type of display?

Hi all
Greg: Thank you.photo is much better now . I am not going
to send E mail to Amakusa shiro. we don't need to ague it.
I respect those who had faith in Jesus, resking own life to keep faith, I do not want to inslut those peoples. If they believing Oribe toro has christianity . let's it be that way... And I keep my opinion.

Hoju : Top of stone lantern called Hoju. Bottom of Hoju often lotus flwoer is curved but not all of them have lotus flower. Some of Hoju have vertical groove. This vertical groove is called "kaen" means fire flame. Hoju of Oribe toro has square bottom which is future of Orebe toro. Other stone lantern do not have square bottom.

Kasa: The photo of piece of Oribe toro missing "kasa"
oribe toro at katura palace and at Nagoya castle which is beleived original Oribe toro have 4 corner, each corner seems to same lenght.

Hibukuro : The Original Oribe toro's Hibukuro is squre qube like, hight, width is almost same.The pohto show thier Oribe toro's Hibukuro is rectangular shape instead of square qube . That is different from the original Oribe toro.
Higuchi : The place has wooden window is called Higuchi.
front and back side should have same size higuchi,. side of Hibukuro also shold have small round window or moon shape openings.
I am not for sure that oribe toro on the photo have two Higuchi and two round window or moon shape opening.
shoji mado/ higuchi. wood work is ?????
If anyone who has photo of Katura Rikyu Oribe toro or Nagoya Castle's oribe toro Please compaire it, then you will know the difference.........mike

At this site http://www.unistone.net/Lantern.htm there are four different lanterns calling themselves 'Oribe' and one 'Rikyu' which is quite different. Now, I can't vouch for the authenticity of these designs, there are more than sixty all together, but you can see the hojo and the hibukuro the museum has.

I am sorry I am not allowed to reproduce a photo of Oribe toro from Katsura. I will find it and view it in the interest of comparison. Meanwhile, here is a lantern of similar design of the one in Katsura detached palace. The lanterns, although greatly different in age, are very similar. After loading the page, scroll down to the picture of Oribe toro.

The picture is not that great, but if someone wants, I will be there next week and can take better photos?

Here is a link that might be useful: Kumamoto En

Hi Don
Thank you for the link.
It is the most beautiful garden I saw in USA.
Many famus Japanese gardens in USA are in midle of tourlist attraction or in large city.
Many Japanese landscape architects who are doing very succeseful in USA came to this country in mid 20's befor accumulta experiance. ( I am too )

I never thought place like Texas can have such a very nice garden.

Have a safe trip to Japan and enjoy "shochu" Please take lot's of photos. .....................mike

Yama, you mention "burning Christians"-is that what you preach? You are a phony! You hate Christians. You are a racist. Why do you think they don't teach Buddhism in Japanese schools. They learned.

Um... I hate to state the obvious, but Mike wasn't saying that he approves of "burning Christians" (or any of the other phrases that accompanied it), but rather he was stating the types of persecution that Christians endured at the time.

I don't see what's your issue with it. Christians were often killed in Rome because of their faith, and that's where a lot of religious symbolism originated. Things like this are discussed very often in school (religion classes, art history, etc), but it's not like we're racist or that we hate Christians.

Try not to make such quick assumptions.

-Audric

Maybe KK didn't learn anything in school.
He claimed being a military veteran, he should be expert in killing people.
Maybe not, maybe he spent his time there doing embroidery.

I wouldve like to see you out there back in the day...

Hi koniferkid.
I was telling History of Japan. It is well recorded history and no one question about it. I attened to private christian Middle school and High school and baptized at age of 50. I studied history of christianty in Japan. I do not visit to church and no longer believe in Christianty. But Buddhsim teachs that respect to old teacher/master Of religeion. I don't even think why I have to. I just follow Buddh's teach.

Japanese constitution prohibit teaching rilegions of any kind at public school. Japanese constitution was great influence of General Douglas MacArthur/ US foreign policy ..... Just in case you did not learn oun county's history. ^I^

"Why do you think they don't teach Buddhism in school. they learned " I went to Japanese public elementarry school. most teacthers were belongeged to communist party and or socialist party. None of teacher mentioneded any relegions in the class. piriod.
Did you attend to any pubic Japanese school ? All Japanese who attened schools in Japan learn what happend to about 700,000 of christians in 1600's and after.
It was plain historical fact of Japan. Not my opion

Are you a christian ? May be not. perhaps, you could not understand my 4th grade English. I am so sorry. ..........yama

Koniferkid
lost in the woods. May be he will be rescued some day.
mike