I don't see the connection edzard and one way of looking at what you say suggests a contradiction, Ryoan ji has no trees other than the imaginary one.
Which tree is it anyway, or is it supposed to be the archetypical tree, how did the garden makers superimpose the outline. Was there an epiphanic moment when the shadow of a nearby tree fell across the courtyard and the monks rushed about placing the stones before the sun went down? I don't see it.
I do however agree with the healing quality of real trees with leaves on.

Hi all
What makes Zen garden?
Again what is Zen? anyother garden in Japan such as Jodo shu temples gardens, Shingoshu temples garden, mordan Japnese gardens are also zen garden ?
put this question side for a while ^-^
Some how I agree to Don...... valka ,Tequila are good too.

Instead of useing computer, should learn human instict, state of mind, psychogy. In Japanese garden design, remove all of we normaly have fears, uneasy feelings and adding balance and hermony. Many Japanese garden build in this country are not practiceing important element into the garden.

for Example If you step on a 1/2 inch thick slate steping stone in garedn which is not set properly and shifted/moveed when you step on, Your barin warn your body to be careful, next steping stone you are very careful becourse first steping stone moved, If second steping stone also moved when you step on, Then you are asuming all staeping stone are not safe to walk on. once your state of mind is on alart, you cannot relax and cannot have peaceful mind.
If you see 2feet wide, 4 inch thick steping stone . you might have different feeling than 1/2 inch thick slate steping stone. If 4 inch thick steping stone moves when you step on, then you will have same feeling as steping on 1/2 inch thick slate steping stone.
If 4 inch steping stone has rough suface and flat, set leveled and do not move when you step on any part of steping stone, you feel safe , not have fear so that your mind can relax ..... if same size of steping stone are set same way, one is on bare gorund, one is on moss covered ground .......... This is an art of Japanese garden.
Calculate human mind is short cut to Zen garden.

Audric : I heard lot's of good things about you from Cady. you are very talented young man.I hope you use your talent for other peoples to make this world better palce to live.
mike

Herb .., INKcognito, others...

history of Ryoanji had a footpath between the sides, removed after the place burned down. The trunk.

- see the stones as negative space as being not there, just see through space. This would be the 'hole for the birds to fly through' in Audrics terms...

Then the gravel itself is the foliage of the tree. Same idea as architectural portrayal, that shapes are suggested not detailed as expexted.

Not impossible then...
chuckle, is it a box of ones own making or a cultural box? Or do we split hairs on how dense the tree is?
edzard

Edzard,

LOL! That's enough to make people wonder if the word 'zany' is derived from the word 'Zen'.

Herb

Zen Zane.

Here is a question for those trying to get their head around what zen is, how it relates to Japanese gardens, how a zen garden differs from a Japanese garden with a Buddhist influence or a Japanese garden with a secular influence.
Until recently Japanese gardens, like gardens around the world were motivated by a notion of paradise, Eden, pure land, shamisen call it what you will. Water, plants, rocks and so on had a symbolic as well as a physical presence in these gardens that were enclosed to give protection to the gardens patron, a king, an emperor, a pope. Zen comes along, which stands in opposition to the notion of heaven and incidentally the religion of the day. So they make 'gardens' that have none of the usual trappings and are as enigmatic as any koan.

What do you think, another load of rubbish?

Inky -

It sounds more plausible than what the BBC was touting.

Herb

Zen riddle: If you seek it, you will not find it. ;)

Cady -

You have just inspired me to suggest a new theory.

When the idea of a Zen garden was first conceived, it was intended - rather like the riddle you mention - to be not only a riddle but to give its creator (and perhaps some others) amusement. And it has done. Just observing the mental contortions that the riddle (or the enigmatic placement of rocks) induces in serious people is a delight.

Herb

Cady - I was thinking some more about people having mental contortions about this topic & I wonder if this helps -

Click to see

He definitely looks like he "gets" it, Herb.

Zeny ? Rubbish ?
Herb and Tony. when you have opinion deffer from others is one thing. insulting Edzard and cady is another things . Shame on you

I quit ! . I am not going to post any more.
Edzard , cady >>>> we can spend our time elsewhere. They never get it. ...............mike

LOL! I've insulted the BBC (they deserve it) but can anybody tell me where Mike gets his strange notion that I've insulted Cady?

I beg your pardon mike, what on earth do you mean. Nowhere on this post did I insult Cady or edzard or anyone else for that matter. Quit if you want, that is up to you but I think you may have misunderstood.
Herb found an item attempting to explain the layout of Ryoan ji that he considered false (rubbish) I agreed but edzard disagreed: no problem there.
I then posted a theory about zen gardens.
I honestly don't see any reason for you to be upset by that.

Er...what? Huh?
Did something happen while I was driving home from work?

Herb was just having a little fun, and I understood that and played back. INK was posing a question in all seriousness and was not seeking to insult or offend anyone. He is just trying to stimulate thought and disussion. If this forum can't be used for open discussion - by both experienced and inexperienced (me included) gardeners - what good is it? And if a little levity can't be injected here and there, what fun is it?

Life is short.

... I read that in true Japanese garden fashion, that Mike has indeed found the simplist essence of all wordings, from Zen Zane straight to zeny...
I can only applaud and admire.. however I do also offer apology for involving someones religion in humorous fashion...
after all making fun of the Pope is not exactly in good taste, especially when it is unexpected... the wit was dry and off the wall,.. cheeky, but not really obvious..
Mike, sorry about the poor humor and my misleading post which had an obscure (dry) humor in it.
It was also serious, which Mike picked up on, thinking the entire post was serious...
fair call against the off the wall gang,.. (the INKy & Scratchy n' Herb Show)..-- its all your fault boys,.. and Mich..
edzard

Hi Herb
acording to my English- Japanese dictionary by Obunsha, Zany is "Baka" , "tonma", , assistant of clown.....
If I had couple of 16 oz beers or few shots of Cannadian whisky with my buddy , then he call me "baka" "tonma" that is good enogh reason to start bloody fight..... We were lucky to have 3,000 miles of cool off distance ^_^ . I feel like edzard is my little brother.
Edzard and Cady send me E mails and Edzard explaind me meaning of zany.
I should chocke publisher's neck. It was all his failure.
........................mike

I'm going back to the Landscape Design forum now, at least there I usually know when I have insulted someone.

me thinks I betta disguise myself as a 'mute' while in Kyoto, otherwise I might end up dipped in tempura and then pickled

mich a la tonkatsu ( deep fried pork cutlet ) .... picture that as one of those little plastic food replicas one sees displayed in the resutoran mado.
not zesty. not zesty at all.

Mich - for your comfort, here's a definition of 'zany' as I've always understood the word - http://www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/zany

Edzard - I hope we can continue to cheerfully needle, tease, and provoke each other?

Mike - Please don't strangle the publisher if you meet him - even the English language dictionaries have obsolete definitions.

A man .
This man suddenly holds up a flower and looks at it.
Seems there is no apparent reason. No argument to be had.
Another man watching saw importance in the gesture of the man holding the flower. This other man makes no comment, asks no question, Only smiles : ) .
( I smile every time I am reminded of this story hehe, I think its magical)
Now why one gazes at the materials of a Kare San Sui garden is very important . Yes, I think so. How one come to know of the word Zen is also very important. Yes, I think so.
I am one such person who loves to gaze at the materials assembled in a Kare San Sui garden. How I came to know the word Zen as a way to SEE the garden is from the story up above I just wrote. Something to meditate on.

The man holding the Flower is Buddha Shakyamuni 1,700 years before places such as Eiheji.

Surrounded by his disciples Buddha Shakyamuni for no reason (one would assume) and having no argument suddenly held up this flower and looked at it

( I'm smart but not that smart so more reason not to ask what kind of flower or color, where this story take place or when , its the moral of the story , right ? that counts. I think this change in me goes along with learning about Zen Japanese stone gardens. I no longer ask questions or type here often like I did last year on Garden Web. I Observe and patiently watch..read some sutras.

Of all of those disciples one man named Mahakashyapa saw importance in this doing of the Buddha Satyamuni looking at a flower yet he made no comment , asked no question...Mahakashyapa only smiled.

From this account being recorded I assume near the time of 1,700 years ago yet seemingly insignificant such as are most incidents in life I find it uplifting . Its an example of wisdom beyond the capabilities of Language. The Buddha Satyamuni in his enlightened state looked at the flower and perceived its true reality, an image being not corrupted by any limitation of the senses , habits and prejudices of the mind.
The other man Mahakashyapa saw as the Buddha saw and became enlightened.

Books tell me this. This story is about an experience being not Random or Haphazard. Its a silent method of teaching and passing onto another person wisdoms .
Anti -Intellectualizing.
I think this is fundamental of Zen teachings. I need to read more.

This means there is no way to define Zen. Zen is not to be found outside of this world or even outside of my own town. I dont have to travel to Japan as a tourist to visit Zen. Zen is simply outside of my thought. No? Its not something I can grasp.

So claiming a Garden is more Zen than another or one Garden is Zen and another is not is like Nursery school children arguing. Joseph Campbell is echoed in these words. I remember reading him in 10th grade H.S. Class was Mythology in Literature. We read Gilgamesh, Siddhartha and other books . Comes handy now : )

I look for inspiration now without a teacher. School is over for me. I must work My only guide to what is Zen is keeping the Buddha nature I read about in Sutra close to my heart. Wherever I go. I read a sutras lines ...like the heart, diamond or lotus sutra and maybe those words are forgotten after a few hours or days. IÂm really not that bright. But I keep trying to see the nature of those words in Suiseki stones , Kare San Sui gardens, Edo period stroll gardens , Bonsai ,Tibetan Thangkas and so on. Saw first Thangkas a couple weeks ago !!! I seek the smile Mahakashyapa experienced .I wish I was as intellectual as he. Sighh. But his learning through transient thoughts , wisdom or experience gives me hope.

WhatÂs most important about the Tree design concept of Computer Herb is sharing.? Better yet what is important for me. What do I seek. Not worrying about what anyone reading this thinks. I'm pointing to my inner self. My soul. Directing these words to me now . Well my definition of Zen has nothing to do with the ultimate enlightenment of Mahakashyapa , Buddha Satyamuni and ultimate truths, absolutes Such people have attained ....That would be akin to treason on my part. Reading their words and sutras and saying I know what they mean. But what is good for me is good and what is good for you is good. Everyone has various abilities of apprehending Zen thought. Mine is below the powers of most others abilities. Even more so of those who use computer tech. Even so I donÂt think the Comp or its users will define Zen. ThatÂs not the issue. Symbolic images and mysticism is the issue. The Computer might be a good tool for such a study.

I went looking for Japanese gardening stones the other day. Half a foot of snow blankets the ground.No where to look So I walked in a shallow river where no ice or snow accumulated. Talk about cold legs . I didnÂt see anything that looked good. Waters are running high. Then I reminded myself of the Heart Sutra . Pure Land Jodo. I started to recite a nembutsu. A very good thing is a nembutsu when forgetting the words of Sutra. Like I said I am not having good way with words. They elude me. Chanted I did. After many hours I felt relaxed, cold waters were forgotten,,,stones were forgotten.Sun was forgottenÂ.time was forgottenÂNo worries. I just forgot to think. And was living in the moment. Thoughts creep in at times like that. But I was aware . I knew the sun was setting and had an idea or perception of time and a need to improvise the thread of thoughts . How I was weaving them. Time plays with that . Creates new ways to see. New forms to be adopted . So is the way of mediating and feeling materials , time ,,reality. So I stopped looking for stones a long while back. I just walked in the river content and accepted a change of plans.

While looking at a rusted piece of iron. I saw how corrosion of the irons surface created mountains , rivers streams and oceans.The irons inner nature was revelaed through erosion and corrosion. Kind of like Karstic stones making for good suiseki. Iron is a symbol of mans strength and intelligence. A great feat of humanity. When in decay iron is just to be discarded or recycled maybe. Bones . What I was looking at was a 6 foot diameter old pipe being a quarter inch thick. The rusted out holes letting light through had the fractaled edges of a Scandinavian coastline. I kept the Buddha nature to heart and found inspiration. Zen is the desire and will to see and mixed with art its magic. Here was a perfect example of Modern minimalism. Surreal is how I felt ..Time really did slow like that described when watching a cherry blossom fall.I did not feel tears upwelling though. I was simply calm forgetting I should be home where its warm.

The whole iron landscape seen on this pipes inner surface is about 4 feet in diameter. Inconsistencies of the iron created many surface patterns . Iron spikes like sharp jagged mountains encircled the scene. Tibetan Thangkas impenetrable Iron Wall having razor sharp spikes. The Fudomyo or wrathful deity should be near : ) One spot of the landscape made of Iron was a trio of red rusted mountains .Rather than the brownish ochre and black hues. There !! Wrathful deity.
I smiled. Sure I was fantasizing. It was keeping the Nature of Buddha in me though. Nothing anti -intellectual. I was using words from books I read to see the Scene as Buddhist. For sure nothing traditional or authentic Japanese Zen.

I'll take my canoe out and retrieve this corroded iron pipe. Use a battery powered Saw to cu out the scene from rest of pipe . Must have been laying there for a century. Broken off way upriver long ago. It shows the representational indirect influences of erosion on stones landscape. How mountains are formed etc. When bent flat and laid down on table the empty spaces eroded through looking like ponds , lakes , rivers and oceans can be filled with fine sand. Or I can back the holes with brilliant reflective metal. Patch them up. To create a juxtaposition of rusty iron landscape and metallic waters having reflective qualities as scene on a sunny day flying over in a jet 30,000 feet above. Meditate on the concept of placid surfaces mirroring light . Mirroring myself. Calming the mind. Or create wall peive where light is shine from the back and the bodies of water ..empty space are illuminated. Goes on forever. Key is to keep Sutra in mind. Why do I want things this way? How can I keep Sutra teachings within context. Eastern thoughts once in th emind are hard to remove. They Cling and mold to old memories and transform how you see new experiences.

You see gardening materials are hard to be found . Its winter and snow hides them. But I keep Zen with me where ever I go. I see Zen in this rusty pipe. Like I see the Buddha following me like the reflection of the sun in a river, a stream, a puddle or lake, ocean or a frozen dewdrop on a mountain laurels leaf tip.

Somehow the rusted iron's landscape laying in the river half stuck in clay reminds me of more than ancient but Yayoi Japan .Having modern western technology inroad into its serene mountains . IÂm not there in Japan. I feel like I was walking that day in Japan though, in a steep river gorge as a Japanese and found inspiration. Inspiration in a modern American piece of Metal. Rusting away . America is so new . Japan gives depth. An Iron pipe embedded in clay. Establishing new roots abstractly akin to those of Japan . Modern metal and primitive clay American clay meet becoming the glue as too how I meld my memories to those things I read here on the Web and in a couple books on Japanese gardens.

China being the middle with Japan and India (Tibet ) on each side. China being the remnants of the Iron Curtain in modern times . Tibetan Thangkas stone styles being influenced by China as was Japans stonesarts influenced . Buddhism always flowing east but it went back west also with Chinese influences changing Tibetan styles . That iron means more than just obtuse off centered thoughts . It is me. My evolution. How I am adopting Gardening , Art , and my memories wit undercurrents of Buddhism and Asian thoughts. Changing me in a Big way. !! I am changing my mind sending ripples to my soul. Tolerant of changeÂmelding.

When I go back to this place with the canoe I'll take the metal . Take some clay also for a diaza like table to display the iron landscape upon. Suiseki roots. So it Looks like something one would see while gazing out across from the highest mountain peak. Proportion and ratio. Birds eye view. Kiln and glaze the clay to look like Metal diaza.
Theres one stone that had its flat top capped with snow . The way the snow piled atop this stone looked like Mt Meru.I wonder if Meru is akin to Semuru. The river ate at the stones base giving it a tappered vase like middle widening as you go up until you are at the flat table top . The snow although seasonal completes the image. Its like a Bonseki stone for outdoors having potential not fulfilled until a good snowfall completes the image of Mt. Merus Icy snow covered cone like hights.
Reminds me of faith and when the moon is not visible. I still know its there. Whenthe moon is full the light is Following me. X-Country skiing and hiking at night gave me those experiences.. This stone resembles the unseen Nature of Buddha (Snow ) and Tibetan creation of the world Mt. Meru (Stone). IÂm corrupting Hindi Indian tradition.. Using Suiseki - Bonseki as a way to see ..view the stones incomplete image. Sublime beauty of change and impermanence. This stone does not have the Fantastical holes of Taihu Doaist stones. Its Japanese to me. And honors the seasonal character of Kyoto or Hokiado. Winter garden viewing.

This is what I would do as a kid. And I keep the heart and mind of a kid always.

That is my fate. To be obtuse and off centered. But I feel Japanese this way. I feel proud to be an American with my childhood memories . I spent most of my childhood alone playing with clay, sand, dirt , rocks , moss, found objects like iron and glass. I didnÂt have a classes or summer camp, artistic parents friends guiding me while playing with those materials .So nothing was really created . But I know how they feel. I know what they look like inside and out. Broke a lot of stones with hammers back then so I know what snowflake obsidian magical qualities are inside. Now I can enjoy the outer opaque river washed patina instead. ThatÂs Japanese to me. Simplicity while knowing the inner bueaty. Not having to smash a stone open to know its inner surfaces . Past experiences having already taught these things. Nature of material. I lifted and carried , played with anything I found as a kid. I am proud to know of Zen and Buddhism. Now those memories have substance. Zen offers a body od work having intellectual pursuits and recognized concepts. I am barrowing from Zen arts to give my simple mind some validition.
Anything I call Zen someone with a greater power to comprehend and conceive will tell me No ..No, not that. I can hear Yama San laughing at me smiling shaking his head . I pray no one read all this way including Yama, Edzerd and Inkognito..Herb and all . Going not that, not that, Not that Rckym21. Its good to have teachers. Those who have gone before you.

Time to read some other threads. Take a look at the pics. Laugh at myself for typing another long winded babble when finished.
Original thought is hard to come by. The iron landscape was original thought for me. But without stealing , barrowing from everything I ever experienced studied I would not have seen the iron landscape. I wonder if this Tree concept will change how I think in any big way. ThatÂs why I typed here. I can see how limited my ability to comprehend is : )

Outside influences these weeks were :

"Tibetan Symbols and motifs Encyclopedia", Robert Beer
A local museum exhibit dealing with "Handprints and Footprints of Buddha"

"Art of Suiseki", Willi Benze

Surrealism and the artists who delt with stones and landscapes, flipping through Barnes and Nobles books . Isamu Noguchi was in the mix of artitists I just learned of him very recently.

"Earth song" , Bernhard Edmaier "Living Buddhism" , Andrew Powell

" The Teaching of Buddha" , A book from a Japanese hotelÂBuukkyo Dendo KyoKai..hotel arcade : ) Akin to the Bible in American Hotels huh

"Chaos" donÂt know author . About Chaos theory , Good ideas . Most important for me was concept of Attractors. Rhythmic patterns the sense of humans can pick up showing chaos having form .

Joseph CampbellÂ.Flipped through a few books here and there
Carl Jung..Ditto like Campbell

Ohh and Andrew Goldsworthy, An artist.
These are the sources I used to write from tonight . They are all woven into my words. Nothing I write is really my intellectual property. All taken from others.

Those books above, I read a paragraph here and there ..a chapter or two at most of any one book. Pictures and such. Maybe 10 hours worth including museum visit. After this period of a few weeks I spent one day looking at my surrounding hills, river and woods. Thought of famous Japanese Gardens like Ryonji . And ended up studying a piece of Iron as potential Japanese garden material instead of the typical lichened river boulder . Recycling the old and making it new .

Peace . Rckym21. obtuse / offcentered as ever : )

Chuckling over my morning coffee at the lively posts and humor. And wondering if we aren't making this too hard to understand. I thought a Zen garden was a dry landscape created for meditation. Devoid of distractions so one could meditate. A place to let the mind rest from outside distractions in order to open ones inner thoughts.

And Herb, I think you are right, maybe that theory was conjured up by someone smoking those stems!

Cheers June

Well, I am taken aback by all this, I obviously credited edzard and mike with intelligence they don't possess.
A lot of the gardens that gave us Italian style gardens were built for popes, in other words popes were the patrons of designers and artists. Versailles, that gives us the archetypal French style was made for a king and many gardens in China and Japan were built for emporers or war lords. Am I insulting the pope when I state these facts? Give me a break!
I was suggesting an alternative origin for the Zen dry garden, is this insulting to you mike? Did you even read it let alone with an open mind?
If it is insulting to challenge either mike or edzard on this forum and as it is the season for quitting, I'm gone. So it's no more INKy and Scratchy show and back to the edie and mikie wordathon, and that IS an insult as you don't seem able to work it out for yourselves.
If you want to trade barbs with me go ahead but do it off forum, Cady has my address.

Methinks the cause of all this is cultural misunderstanding. The results of a stewpot of English-speakers who yet come from very different backgrounds. Wires get crossed, intentions misunderstood, and feelings thus ruffled.

To non-Buddhists, especially in Western cultures, "Zen" has an entirely different meaning and interpretation than it does to Buddhists who practice this system. Westerners thus see "Zen" as a much more casual thing. That's why gift shops sell "Zen" tabletop gardens, and people talk about something having a "Zen" look (meaning stark, spare and simple).

It happens all the time. Look at how Kabbalah - a sect of Jewish mysticism - is now a fad and popular pursuit for non-Jews. To a serious student of Kabbalah, this light treatment of their tradition is an insult. In their eyes, something sacred has been vulgarized by people who have only a shallow understanding of what Kabbalah represents.

I believe that this is how serious practitioners of Zen Buddhism view "outsider" interpretation of their belief system. And from the viewpoint of an outsider (I am one of them), we would not automatically understand or be sensitive to how a believer/practitioner perceives our casualness in addressing the subject.

So, everyone - please try to see things from the other's perspective. There are deeply-ingrained cultural and belief-based factors involved here that perhaps none of us fully understand.

I believe I understand the intent and heart of all those who posted here, and thus conclude that no one - not INK, not edzard, not Mike, not Mich, not anyone - meant to offend anyone else, nor insult anyone's beliefs.

I also meant to say, that those who were offended should also try to understand that they are conversing with people from different cultures, who may not be familiar with the way things are in your culture. So, you should not be so quick to take offense when others seem to joke about a subject that is serious to you.

In Japan, calling someone a "fool" after a few beers is worthy of a fist fight. In North America, though, it isn't. People joke casually about a lot of things, and no one takes it seriousl. So, before taking offense on an Internet forum, it's always wise to ask what someone's intentions are first, before getting upset and throwing a punch!

Thanks for keeping this on thread Ricky. Your pursuit of enlightenment is refreshing in times of incomplete dictionaries and hurt feelings. Everyone is grabbing their coats and heading towards the door, you may be without a few teachers for a while.

Indeed, original thought is hard to come by. Conveying that thought is even harder. Remember the feeling not so much the details. Trying to recreate that feeling on a message board is akin to an episode of CSI Miami. Lots of evidence gathering, looking at stuff through a microscope, the feeling tends to get lost. You paint a great picture in your posts but it is very difficult to capture the moment in words so don't feel too bad if someone "doesn't get it". You got it, that is what is important.

IMHO, you need a teacher locally. Someone who can stop you in a stroll and say "did you feel that". Someone to drink tea with by candlelight. Books and the good ol' I-Net are OK but you need the real 3-D thing. They are out there and are willing to share, that is your next journey to find one. Be willing to be an apprentice who shows up at the front door with an empty cup.

BTW, if you just so happen to find one that is Japanese, don't use the word "zany". I have learned here that it has possible negative connotations.

Michael

Hi all. It's me again
I had good lesson from this.
" Human have three poisons. anger, greed, delusion . there for we have pain and sufering ".

Last 24 hours Edzard send me 4 e-mails, Cady send me 2 e-mails. Edzard explaing meaning of "zany" and he explained me that was humor.

Cady send me E mail she thought I was upset becours I was insulted. But it was not, I thought Edzard was insulted..

Again, My English-Japanese dictionary explanation was " baka /stupid" tonma/ fool, assistant of clown . and then followed Inky's "Rubbish" and again Hotei's photo to Cady. It was unlikly of Herb's word. but I was already upset after seeing the dictionary....

20 some years ago when I went to back to Japan . One evening, I saw 5~6 young bikers who dressed in leather jacket with Nazi' marking and flags... I was so angreed and shouting to then "you are so stupid" if they say someting I was ready to jump on them. They just drop jaw and din't know why I am so angree and what to say. For them it was cool fashion. I had many Jewish friends and customers. so, holcust wasn't just historical events to me. instead of fashion , it was statement to me. If I did not come to USA and did not meet many Jewish peoples , I might did same thing of group of bikers however.

To ask question is easy. only few lines of typing are needed. When Edzard try to repond to question(s), it takes him to check with refference book(s) and much longer writeing and time. I do not agree with edzard always but I admire him, ability to find literatures and responding to questioners.

I THOUGHT MY A LITTLE BROTHER EDZARD WAS UNDER THE ATTACK.. IT WAS ALL MISTAKE.
I HOPE I DID NOT LOST FREINDS..........MIKE

INKcognito... indeed, I am joyfully often credited with more intelliegnce than I possess,... and curiously it induces me to live up to what I lack,.. frankly, I appreciate it..
I call it prodded learning, goes with a skin well thickened over time.
yet,.. whats with your skin? just not like you.. enjoyably as with Herb,.. barbs and nicks can keep you in better shape with twists and turns than 'I knew that' quips.. -decisions are each ours to make, more so as you stretched the Arcadian envelope... I'd miss that...

and mike,.. um, thanks,.. though better to wait until I can't get up anymore.... :)).

reminds me of playing soccer in the livingroom until the 300 year old vase admirably shattered into puzzle pieces.

reminds me of a German poem,..
have sun in your heart
and a song on your lips
whether it rains or snows
etc.
edzard
so--- what makes a Zen garden?
do zen's garden?
ah well.....

Link below will help you guys to understad what is Chan/zen. Once you understand what is Chan/Zen, then it will help you to understand What is Zen garden.

Inky : on the other posting, I typed about Zen /Meditianon from Buddhist Dictioanry for you and Herb. that was only portion of the dictionary explain, but if you are intrested rest of explonation of Zen from Buddhism Dictionary. I am happy ot send you the rest.

I just found intrsting information below. hope is not too late
befor leaveing, If you read it carefully and link below, you may not need to ask what is zen again. Then don't hear bullshxx from me . ^-^ Zany , zany. another Zany. where rubbish went to ? ........... mike

Mike,

The first lines in your Chan/Zen link that got my attention were -

"Chan......starts with gaining thorough knowledge of one's own self. The moment you know what your self is, this "I" that you now take to be yourself will simultaneously disappear. We call this new knowledge of the notion of self "enlightenment" or "seeing ones basic nature"...... In the end, you will discover that you the individual, together with the whole of existence, are but one totality which cannot be divided."

Further on, I was interested to read this -

" phenomena themselves are basic substance, and apart from phenomena there is no basic substance to be found. The reality of basic substance exists right in the unreality of phenomena, which change ceaselessly and have no constant form."

By now I've probably got ahead of myself - and maybe I have the wrong end of the stick altogether and am asking a stupid question - but I'll ask it anyway - is one of the aims of a Zen garden to minimize the viewer's pre-occupation with phenomena and direct it towards the reality of basic substance?

Herb

Hi Herb
Cady is pixxed . Becourse I am not writing apology letters to Michelle and Inky.
Cady wants know when I finish being pixxy.
It was simply misinterreting of the dictionary. If it wan't good enough reason. let's it be

I am going to go vacation . ..............mike

Mike,

I don't know how to best respond. Writing as a former Anglican and former Christian & intending no offence to Anglicans or to Christians, I wonder if what the entire forum needs is what Anglican Christians call a General Confession - or, to plagiarise Inky - a Repentathon?

Have a healing vacation,

Herb

No need to apologize to me.
It takes quite a lot to get under my thick tonkatsu skin.

Though Mike, if you are going on vacation may I suggest that you sweep Cady off her feet and bring her here to Northern California where the two of you can make my humble quarters your humble quarters.

mi casa su casa ( Spanish for my house is your house )

Your vacation itinerary might look something like this :
day 1 - take the mountain bikes and drive 20 minutes over to Sonoma Valley. On the way there check out the new avant-garde exhibition garden called 'The Cornerstone Festival of Gardens' - very arty - ride around Sonoma Valley visiting the various wineries and cheese making boutiques. Dinner at the French Laundry or Piattis on the square.

day 2 - load the kayaks up and head out to Tomalas Bay and Pt. Reyes National Seashore- 35 minute drive. Paddle around the bay and take in the serene beauty. Go to Johnson Oyster Co and eat a few 'raw ones '. From there drive along the coast 20 minutes and hit the Giant Redwoods and walk thru Muir Woods. Have dinner at the quaint and cozy Pelican Inn or if there is an open house night going on at the Zen Center grab a bite there , The Zen Center at Green Gulch Farms. ( all within 5 minutes driving time of one another )

day 3 - hit the wineries again , but this time drive a little further over into Napa Valley. 35 minute drive. Lots to do there and the area is spread out so leave the bikes at home.
I suggest visiting Copia ( for the gardens ) Clos Pegase, Mondavi, Sterling and Beringer Wineries. Lunch at the CIA - Culinary Institute of America or at Copia the Julia Child Cafe or have a picnic at with a gourmet pic a nick basket prepared from The Oakville Market.
Linger in the town of Calistoga , see some art, take in a mud or steam bath and then have dinner at Tra Vignes.

Day 5 - day trip over to Da City - 15 minutes to the Larkspur Ferry and then take the Ferry over to the City for a boat ride past Alcatraz Island and to the main Pier ( add 25 minutes for ferry . ... or drive in across the Golden Gate Bridge 35 to 40 minutes depending on traffic ) . - visit the Golden Gate Park, The Strybing Arboretum, The Japanese Tea Garden, Perhaps take in the MOMA, Lunch at The Beach Chalet, check out Japan town, China Town, The Castro, Coit Tower, The Embarcadero.
Dinner at Aqua or Kuletos at Ghiradelli Square.

Day 6 - I'm sure I can pull some strings with my old ski club buddies and see if I can get you into the cabin up on Lake Tahoe.... You do ski don't you ? ( 2.5 hr drive to the cabin in Truckee , North Lake Tahoe )

Day 7 - Well as long as you are in the mountains we might as well keep the theme going and have you drive 2 hours south into Yosemite National Park. There's a few nice 'sightseeing' adventures there . A place called Half Dome, Yosemite Falls and Granite Chief.
The low down on Eats in Yosemite goes like this : breakfast at the Ahwanee - ask for a window table. Order the 15 dollar omelette. - It will be the most memorable egg dish you ever eat. Lunch is always a picnic on one of the trails and dinner is usually a pizza at the Lodge.
If you can get dinner reservations at The Ahwanee, go for it. It's expensive but a night you will always treasure .
It takes about 3.5 hours to drive back to Marin from Yosemite, so you might want to book a cabin in Yosemite at the Curry Village. Cute cabins that are right next to the skating rink.

There is lots more to do once you get back to Marin, like hiking Mt. Tam, visiting the hot horticultural sights, ect....

But we can talk about that when you get here.

http://www.nationalparkreservations.com/ahwahnee/ahwahnee.htm

Hi Herb
I am thinking my self this way to find what is Zen.

I put book of zen aside. Try to learn 6 years of asctic practice of Buddha. one day hebecome "enlighted one" and called Buddha. learn Buddh's path and his precept.
The first sermon Buddha had to five of old colleague in the deer park at Isipatana, the name of deer park flied to kyoto Rokuonji temple, known as Kinkakuji temple.
Roki= deer, on= garden , ji = temple.

why Daruma dashi meditated front of stone wall for 9 years ? later he become icon of all zen. Daruma Daishi was sitting of top of Buddha , trying to find truth of precept of Buddha. Zen is standing on hand of Buddha. no Buddha's hand , then no Zen.

You are asking to wrong guy and wrong question.
I am not traind well enough to tell you about it. As the zen master said, you have to find the answer your self . Koan is drill text. not the answer.
Can you relate teach of Rinzai Zenshi ? He said if you meet Buddha, kill Buddha, if meet the master kill your master. If see your parents, kill your parents.
precept of Zen is not by authority, not by buliding of the themple nor sutras, Zen asking your action and your way.

Dress confertably and remove wacth, remove ring from finger. turn off computer, TV, radio, phone. not talk to anyone. If your grand kids visit you tell them visit you another day again. be your self and meditate. bearth slowly. not think anything long as you can . read link above again....
repeat untill you can feel something differenly your self.

Give your wife credit card send her to shop long as she can stay in shoping center.... Dhammapada, old sutra tell hasbands respect your wife and buy ornament to his wife some time.... also you can be your self.hehehe

In Christiany, if you have any questionss about faith,all answers are provided in the Bible.Evely persons must understand same way about God. if you understand different way than the church's interaputation then you are out castsed and have to find other church... other hand many sutras begin as " thus I have heard " it do not tell how it is taught ... giving you some room to think or understand it .....
my 2 cents.

Herb; May be I am one step or two headed you about leaning Buddhism ,Becourse I had same questions you have today.
mike

Yama is cute when he's pixxy. ;)

Mich,
That's some vacation you have planned out there. Last time I was in Marin, Yellowstone and wine country was 1978, so maybe it's time for another visit!

As for making tu casa nuestro casa, that is way too generous - especially since you don't even know whether we bathe regularly! But I would jump at an opportunity to see your garden, yak with you face-to-face, and meet Mr. Peabody, the Jack Russell Terrorist. Oh, and it would be nice to have Yama along, too. ;) ;)

This topic of what makes a Zen Garden has obviously caused feelings to run high, not just in this thread but in the thread headed 'Children of Zen'.

Some of the reactions concern the understanding (or lack of understanding) among English speakers of what constitutes a 'Zen Garden', and indeed, 'Zen' .

It seems clear that the idea of what is a 'Zen Garden' and of what is 'Zen' has, for English speakers, become somewhat - shall I say - diluted. Some might say not so much diluted as debased.

Now, having said that, what do you all think of this? -

Click here

shrug..
i get the same experience when cleaning the cats litterbox...
sad,.. and they make the money, reality Zen seems not to.
edzard

Not much else to be said about them, is there? I wonder if they'll soon be advertised as being designed by computer?

Herb

Lovely. Deep philosophy reduced to a $9.99 retail price point. How very American...

Read this all the way through and it was a little gut wrenching. All good people and friends and then language reduces us to a squabble; enough to make you give the stuff up for good.

I was reminded of a story that Dogen was told of an old abbot who found two monks arguing over a dog, and then, unable to satisfy both of their demands, grabbed a sword and chopped the dog in two.

Dogen's student thought this a wonderfully Zen solution to the problem (?), but Dogen stopped the student and told him a true master would have cut the dog into one piece...

Cut it into one piece, my friends...

Bring to me a pillow made of purple smoke and I will show you the dog.

Scott,
I think that that popular Hebrew king, Solomon, came up with the concept before Dogen. And his solution got the point across without spilling blood (how un-Buddhist to kill a dog!). ;)

See you at New England Grows(?).

Cady:
Yes. Excellent point!

(Besides, it wasn't a dog but a kitten.)

"Spiritual Window Shopping "
Written by Jalaal'uddin Rumi (translated by Coleman Barks) and now taken from a page of a book written by Robert Beer, "Tibetan Symbols and Motifs"

These spiritual window shoppers, who idly ask.
"How much is that?"-"Oh I was only looking"
They handle a hundred items, and put them down again,
shadows with no capital.
What is spent is love, and two eyes wet weeping.
But these walk into a shop, and their whole lives pass by suddenly,
in that moment, in that shop.
"Where did you go?"-"Nowhere"
"What did you have to eat?"-"Nothing much".
"Even if you don't know what you want, buy something,
To be part of the exchanging flow.
Start a huge foolish project, like Noah.
It makes absolutely no difference what people think of you.
"Jalaal'uddin Rumi>

Reading this reminds me that I am greatfull for simple minded use of the word Zen that have touched my life indirectly leading me to Japan and Eastern thoughts. From Chevy Chase in "Cady Shack" goin Nanananannnana NAaaaananananaaaaa while puting those golf balls to the Link Herb has willingly provided showing commercial enterprises of Zen garden boxes . Read the bottom of this poem again. For I do not know anything. Please excuse my ignorance. I little confused. I am starting to wonder if anything that has the word Zen is good. Maybe its not good for you. But why not just get the word out ? Keep repeating Zen. Let a culture learn and adopt new concepts slowly.

Two women claimed an infant. One who riased the infant and one who is natural mother.
King Solomon said , "I will solve this, I will Cut the infant in half and give and give each of you half.

One women says ,"Noooooo ! She can have him ". King Solomon then knew this to be the real mother.

Moral of story is aside of illustrating remarkable intelligence of King Solomon, true nature of love is not intelligence. Wisdom is not intelligence.

When the Buddha Shakyamuni suddenly held up a flower and looked at it, Mahakashayapa smiled sharing in the true nature of the shared reality seen in the flower.Essence of Zens founding Wisdom. I have very little understanding of these words . No idea. I think I do. But really deep down inside I know I cant grasp this. Hard to swallow the truth.

Wisdoms are complex . Absolute truths are simply amazing. Peak expereinces..now those change me in a huge way.I would like to be a good man. "What Makes a Zen Garden" is teaching me this path.

My path started when I picked up a pebble in our backyard when I was around 3 years old. I dropped it when seeing my father. Lost concentration of pebble.. I remember his legs. haha. Thats all I recall of that moment. Another day I picked up pebble again. My father said white. I recall his bending down and taking the pebble in both of our hands. He looked in my eyes and said white. I loved my Dad. dropped the pebble when he let go of my hand. I followed him .

Sometime within that week my mother took me outside. I recall finding a pebble and going to my mother white. She looked at me with wide eyes smiling. I dont recall my feeling. When she took the pebble from my hand to look. I went to the ground and looked for white. I do not remember anymore of this learnings.

I do recall nursery school. Going to the car with my mother and picking up a Quartz stone . While in the car wearing my Cowboys Footaball leather jacket I held this Quartz in my hand. " White" The thought creeped in and I knew I had not seen a white stone since the week with my father teaching me white.

From this thread of thought I came to know of white , quartz . Somewhere in there is pebble and stone. I dont recall. But those were Peak Expereinces. Those are the memories that bring me to Japan. I seek to know who I am. Materials of a garden need words. Without words one does not see. I see white quartz pebbles everywhere now.

Zen, Japanese Garden , Kare San Sui , Suiseki ,Zen. How one comes to know a word is more importent than the word itself. Zen will not come untill I know how I became me. I am part of the Flow . Zen and Japanese Gardening is within me. One must have the will , desire to find new words to see with. Keep open heart to see wisdoms also.

Dogen. King Solomon. Basho. Three new influences in my life this week.

Good thread : )

about Dogen;
story of kitten was in [ Shoho Ganzo zuimomki] which written by Dogen's deciple "Ejo" who is 2 years older than Dogen.
Ejo asked to his master 'Dogen' about this Koan.he also asked to the master " what you do if you were there ? "
Dogen said I wouln't kill kitten but did not making any critcism either. To understand circumstance and precept of Zen, we have to learn precept of Enlightted one, "Buddha"

I had "Shoho ganzo zuimonki" since high School. I had this book for long time. but I couldn't understand it untill study Buddhism. while attending church, surounded by Christian freinds and christianty back ground, I was viewing this story much different way than now......mike

Oops...

That's what I get for relying on memory...

If I thought I understood all the koans and teaching parables I'd be worried. I remember another example of a teacher asking if a student if he understood a point and when the student said he did the teacher said he did not.
"How do you know I do not understand?" asked the student
"Because you say you do..."

Yama shows his wisdom all the time by saying he does not understand it all, but more than he used to. I know less than that but more than I used to, and that is cause for joy in itself...

See you at the show Cady (I'm driving to CENTS this weekend, so anyone in Columbus should stop by Prides Corner's booth and say howdy)

Scott

Scott,
When you're in Boston, I'll stop by your booth to say "Howdy"! Sounds like you have the full trade show circuit this season.

This is respectfully for those who viewed and commented on our Miniature Zen Garden Site. (See Herb's Post above)
Those Zen gardens have given many moments of solace and peace to countless people in busy offices, hospital rooms and dwellings across the world. Is this wrong? Is your "deeper" meaning firmer because you didn't spend $9.99? How much should it cost and what are the rules of enlightenment by direct intuition through meditation? Is a $9.99 book on the subject...wrong? Is the relaxation experienced by miniature Zen garden users fruitless or devalued somehow because it isn't pure?
Is it pure Zen philosophy? Of course not! The name is historically literal in that they are modeled after the ancient Zen gardens of old. While there are exceptions out there we build ours with meditation and relaxation always in mind. Just like the physical gardens. If we were trying to be anything more than just a simple place for some themed meditation tools, we would be called, "Mahayana Buddhism Gardens."
Someone said in post above," Lovely. Deep philosophy reduced to a $9.99 retail price point. How very American... "
I respect this isn't your cup of tea... but I am all for $9.99 giving peace and sanity in chaotic atmospheres. That's pretty deep in my book. The history of miniature Zen gardens is hardly American however. As far as price is concerned: Are you saying the more expensive the price the deeper the philosophy? Since the majority of people work in a small office or live in a dwelling without a yard should they be ashamed to want to explore the meditative richness of the sand and rocks in Miniature Zen gardening? Someone said they get the same experience when raking a cats litter box. That's your reflection friend and I'll respect that.
Our very small business was born out of me using a miniature Zen Garden during cancer treatment. It was and continues to be an amazingly simple and effective tool for my family finding some symbolist centering. Not bad for $9.99?! I enjoyed many moments with a miniature garden while in isolation. Nothing was as relaxing in that hospital room. Other patients enjoyed the relief. Some just casually. Other patients found it a necessary part of there treatment. Some went on to create larger gardens and found themselves in sync with higher level of philosophies. A true stepping stone.
Miniature Zen gardens offer an opportunity for enhanced meditative peace in the busiest of spaces. (I dont need to explain the exact mechanics why) Is a painting of Jesus for $9.99 wrong?? How about a statue of Buddha for $9.99?? A Torah for $9.99?? But a miniature Zen garden deserves pious judgment? Thanks for viewing our site. Thank you for your time.
I am continuing regime of anti-cancer meds in my goal for remission and must apologies for the many fragments and typos.
Slog On!

Hi Mike!
I read your zen link above and it helped me some.
I've been too busy to have much time in the garden,
but have managed to some yoga/meditation...
There's always so many books to read.
I read in one book the meaning of your name in sanskrit.

On the subject of zen, I'm waiting on a library book
on hold by Sekida, Katsuki. I think to myself, I need
to understand everything immediately or I will give up on it.
(giggle)

ToPort,

The two items that I felt were a bit remote from my own idea of Zen character - and that led me to concur with Edzard's very rude remark - were the two Zen Dinghies.

However, as you'll see from the posting 'Zen's other offspring', Edzard & I are poles apart on the topic as a whole.

If you take a look also at the posting 'A Stupa and something else', you'll see that it leads to a picture of a miniature Zen garden that somebody saw in a shop window in Kyoto. It looks (to me) rather more 'Zen' than the dinghies, but that's just my personal opinion & I certainly don't want to lecture people on what they can and can't call 'Zen'.

I'm not surprised that people have found your products beneficial. I hope that they continue to do so & that your business prospers.

Herb

I overheard some people singing away:

.

"Nothing's gonna change my garden..."

and even...

"let it be...let it be...let it be..."

while still others shouted from afar:

"We will...we will... rock them...moss them..."

.

I'm so confused, what zen? what garden?...

At all seasons I value to be in the warm arms of the mother.

.