Hi Lee - Nice to hear from you. I doubt that you will lack for perspectives on these questions, but I have a few thoughts:

1. Do Religion and sprituality play a role...? perhaps not today... I just got back from a few weeks in Japan and never saw or heard a religious reference that wasn't historical in context. No question that the roots of JG tradition are deeply intertwined with Shinto, Buddhism, and other practices however. Hard to appreciate the subtelty of the art without knowing some history, so the religious aspects are key to appreciation. You don't have to be a Roman Catholic to appreciate Notre Dame, but you can't understand how that magnificent structure came to be without understanding the church's role. Of course the influence of religion in gardens of Japan varied widely across the thousand plus years of development.

3. What distinguishes Religion from Spirituality? That seems like asking what distinguishes French Cooking from Hunger. Religion implies order, rules, shared experience, organization, common belief. Spirituality might be the more primal force that leads us to look for that shared understanding.
4. Is it acceptable to use religious symbols..? Acceptable to whom? Is it acceptable when Madonna uses Christian crosses in stage costumes? It certainly is to her many fans and sponsers. It isn't very interesting to use symbols without knowing the meaning and history, but if your intent is to create a recognizable symbol to an audience with limited critical background, why not? Many things become useful to evoke connection without ever intending to represent the original purpose. I saw evergreen trees in more than one Jewish home this year, echoing the Christian tradition, which is in itself an echo of the pagan solstice tradition. So what? They know what they are doing, just like Madonna does. I see devout Muslim women in Malaysia happily wearing NFL tee shirts or Disney character shirts with their burkas. Some might think those are two of America's more succesful religions - sports and consumerism, but the women wearing them don't intend the meaning. They seem silly to somebody with a different experience, but they are happy. So consider the audience and who you want to please.

As Herb points out from an article in JOJG, the Japanese have been identified as the most secular population in the world, but that may reflect their lack of religious affiliation, not their lack of spiritual motivation.

6. When do symbols lose their meaning...? Perhaps they don't lose those original meanings, but they layer on new meanings through expanded use and the original symbol becomes the buried footnote. I see newly built Tea Gardens with sword resting stones that will never see a sword. Does this mean the new owner or designer supports the vicious militarism of the Samurai way? No, but perhaps they are respecting that tradition and the sense of leaving conflict outside the door. Can you move that stone away from a teahouse and still find meaning? Sure, but it becomes a less precise statement. Can you have a turtle island without believing the world was carried on the back of the creature...etc. Maybe the most talented garden builders find ways to respect those traditions without slavishly copying the exact structures of their predecessors. In the end, JG is an art form, and there is no right or wrong in art, just opinion.

L.W.,

You made a powerful point when you wrote - "It isn't very interesting to use symbols without knowing the meaning and history." and your example of the newly-built Tea Gardens with sword resting stones that will never see a sword must make us all ask ourselves whether we really want to include such items in our gardens.

Indeed, if we never perform the Tea Ceremony, might we do better to modify the Tea-Garden to something more relevant to our own lives?

For example - I think that a Tsukubai with a water basin looks very attractive, but the water basin itself has, in most westerners' gardens, no real purpose. In my garden therefore, the water basin has become a bird bath - from which we get the constant pleasure, not just of seeing birds splashing, but of squirrels and other creatures drinking. Whether this appeals to everybody I don't know, but we like it.

Herb:
It seems to me that you are among the few who truly understand the spirit of the garden. Unlike those who psycho-babble it to death (because they love to hear themselves talk).

Many thanks to everyone who has posted so far! I see a lot of interesting points of view.

I forgot to add this question:

8. Where does aesthetic appreciation leave off and spiritual experience begin? Or are they entirely separate?

I really am interested in hearing all opinions, so please don't feel shy about posting. I also want to clarify that I don't have a hidden agenda here. I do have my own opinions on these questions, but my only purpose is to learn what others think. My talk will consist in large part of references to what other people have written and said on this subject.

By the way, LouisWilliam --- welcome back from your trip! ...and did you get my e-mail from some time back?

Lee

Lee,..
in addressing whether religion plays a part in the Japanese garden I've condensed some notes for you, and as you are fluent in Chinese, I'm sure you will be able to follow the research stream as outlined to reach the same conclusion.

Prince Shotoko in Article II of the Seventeen Article Constitution (604 A.D.) adopted Confucianism to be supreme in secular matters and Buddhism in spiritual ones.

Even through the Manyoshu, the classic anthology of poetry completed in the 8C, the concepts and echoes of Chinese poetry pervade throughout Japanese culture through to today, vis a vis.

Japan borrowed the legal institutions of the Tang Dynasty including the flowery phraseology of the existence of the Laws to the extent that the memorial attached to the commentary on the legal code of 833 A.D. is a tissue of allusions to Chinese literature.

Kukai, on returning from China to Japan elaborated on the theory of his master. Hui-kuo, which outlined that only through art could the profound meanings of esoteric Buddhism be conveyed :

ÂThe law [dharma] has no speech, but without speech it cannot be expressed. Eternal truth [tathata] transcends color, but only by the means of color can it be understood. mistakes will be made in the effort to point at the truth, for there is no clearly defined method of teaching, but even when art does not excite admiration by its unusual quality, it is a treasure which protects the country and benefits the people.
In truth, the esoteric doctrines are so profound as to defy their enunciation in writing. with thew help of painting, however, their obscurities may be understood. the various attitudes and mudras of the holy images all have their source in BuddhaÂs love, and one may attain Buddhahood at sight of them. Thus the secrets of the sutras and commentaries can be depicted in art, and the essential truths of the esoteric teaching are all set forth therein. Neither teachers, nor students can dispense with it. Art is what reveals to us the state of perfection.
 Kukai, memorial on the Presentation of the List of Newly Imported Sutras. quoted in Moriyama (Kobo Daishi Den p.249)

beyond the 4 Aspects (Mastery of the 3 Mysteries) determining the ÂArts in KukaiÂs school, Kukai felt that whatever was beautiful partook of the nature of Buddha.

compare and follow the aesthetic terms of criticism to their original conception:
aware: old = unusual beauty, modern = wretched
en = charming, evokes visual beauty in literature terms
okashi = delight amusement
miyabi =  refinement (placement),.. Gradations of Beauty sic. Shina no sadame  determination of rank or value.

Fujiwara no Teika, (1162-1241) influenced Japan in the formation of the Japanese literary taste by compiling the Hundred Poets, A Poem Each (Hyakunin Isshu) which were included and edited by him in the New Collection (1205) of poetry, thereby influencing our complete exposure to Japanese poetry.

The waka, five lines of 5,7,5,7, and 7 syllables, were specified to follow the words used by the masters of the Three anthologies (1005,8) " the same words are proper for all poets, whether ancient or modern. The style should imitate the great poems of the masters of former times. snip, it is however, rather excessive to borrow as many as three if the five lines, and betrays a lack of originality.Three or four words over two lines are permissible, but it is simply too exasperating if in the remaining lines the same imagery as in the original poem is usedÂ."

Sabi = to be desolate
consider SeamiÂs writings
Yugen combining the Âno-action of Noh, = the empty space of the garden.
Most Noh spectators appreciate the Âmoments of no-action as the most enjoyable (also attained via "mindlessness", Zen Buddhism)
When examined why these moments of no-action are appreciated it was found that it was due to the underlying spiritual strength of the actor which holds the attention more than an action.
--study the Nine stages of of the Noh
(stage 3 of the highest stage: the Flower of Stillness = "snow piled in a silver bowl")

understandably then, if architecture, allusionary language, painting, poetry of the Heien period influenced Japan as a whole, through to today, unless Noh is no longer performed, Sumo etc. and gardens are not art, nor ever based on poetry, allusion or painting, then religion and spirituality certainly exists in the Japanese garden.

presumably not many of Japans youth are attending Noh, which would obviously lead a recent survey to indicate that Japan is quite secular. ah statistics....

edzard...
with apologies and atoning for the lapsed email as i try to catch up.

Lee: it is possible that an aesthetic appreciation free of what Buddhists call 'grasping' could lead to a spiritual experience. It is also possible that a so called sword resting stone was a place to leave the aggression that drives the sword too, in which case it is equally valid today. A similar thing could be said for tsukabai as a means of changing ones outlook, it could also serve as a birdbath but then so could an upturned dustbin lid.

Inky - Yes, but equally valid for whom?

The birds?

Inky -

You wrote - "...a so called sword resting stone was a place to leave the aggression that drives the sword too, in which case it is equally valid today." So I don't see what the birds have to do with my question.

Or do you mean that the entire notion of having a sword resting stone in a new Japanese garden is 'for the birds'?

Sorry Herb, I misunderstood.
The notion of a symbol that reminds us to enter the garden free from aggression would be valid wouldn't it, even if you were the only one that recognized it.

Inky -

1. Yes, it would certainly be valid for a garden owner who recognised it - and especially so, I should think, if the owner was somebody with an aggressive nature!

On the other hand, an owner might feel that the abandonment of aggression only for the duration of the Tea Ceremony was a bit like confessing your sins to a priest, being given absolution, and then feeling free to commit the sins all over again - i.e. a bit hypocritical? Might he not, consequently, feel uncomfortable with the stone's presence?

On the whole though, I suspect that the likelihood of visitors recognising & appreciating a sword resting stone might be a bit remote, so probably making it a bit of a wasted gesture?

2, Incidentally, on the topic of bird baths, wouldn't you think that even in their case, the spiritual content - or indeed lack of it - may vary just a wee bit? -

Click here.....

Now you are confusing aesthetics with spirituality Herb. If it looks good AND has/could have, a spiritual or religious significance why not allow for that?
Your view on a catholic confession is a tad cynical by the way as is the extension of what I said into "the abandonment of aggression only for the duration of the Tea Ceremony".

Great thread!
Herb stated "On the whole though, I suspect that the likelihood of visitors recognising & appreciating a sword resting stone might be a bit remote, so probably making it a bit of a wasted gesture? "
Is it a wasted gesture to include in a written work references and metaphors that only an esoteric few will understand? Or symbolism in a painting that likewise will not be recognized by everyone, or in music that will not be heard by everyone?
Think of great presentations of any sort that you have experienced and they probably share a common ability to appeal not only to the uninitiated, but also have the ability to engage those who possess advanced knowledge of the subject. Such 'pearls' that are present for those that can discern them help separate great lectures, paintings, music, gardens, or whatever from the average.
John

Inky -

I freely admit that on the whole I put aesthetics ahead of spirituality - though I should have thought that watching birds splashing in a bird bath (preferably not in a dustbin lid though) can - if you're of that frame of mind - blend quite naturally into the spiritual idea of reverence for life. I think that we're perhaps closer on this point than might have at first appeared?

Sorry to seem a bit cynical on the matter of abandoning aggression: I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Perhaps the laying down of a sword on the sword stone should be thought of just as a custom, like men removing their hats on entering a Church or Muslims taking off their shoes before entering a Mosque, the significance of the custom varying among the individuals who observe it.

I'm adding this post from Phil, a good (but shy) friend and client, who sent it to me privately after enjoying reading the other posts here. He gave me permission to add it here:

1. Do religion and spirituality play a role in Japanese gardens in Japan?
It is inconceivable that anyone could question this unless they are
devoid of spirituality..For example
the Adachi garden seems to me a exercise in technique and sterility
it would be harder for me to have a spiritual expierence there

2. What is a spiritual experience (in general and in reference to gardens)?
   Walking thru the Asticou I cannot help but talk in whispers, movement
   becomes slower gentler
   the incredible beauty of nature, a feeling like when the organ played
   signaling the ending of services
   Sunday mornings so many years ago. always something moves me to
   tears, never the same thing.
   has to do with the day the sun the time of year
   3. What distinguishes religion from spirituality?
   I claim no religion but feel I am a very spiritual person
   Religions always seem to have bunches of laws or rules
   I cannot stand stuff like that :( do as you will harm no one
   says it all :)
3. Is it acceptable to use Japanese religious symbols ornamentally in
   Japanese-inspired gardens outside Japan?
   A really tough one and I am guilty I think it is the intent of the
   use that is important
   with reverence? it still bothers me tho
4. What does it mean if a Japanese garden is designed as a purely scenic
   arrangement (without symbolic or religious intent), but someone sits in
   it and has a spiritual or religious experience?
   LOL it means that the garden is a success :) Mother nature is in
   everything :)
5. At what point do religious symbols become expressions of tradition
   rather than purely religious expressions?
   Aha a really good question All religions borrow from one another
   changing whatever it is to fit with their beliefs
   secular traditions do the same so where is the point ? I guess it
   is the word "Purely" that is bothering me
   as they may never lose religious expression.
6. Does "following the request of the stone" [or whatever material one
   is using] constitute a spiritual approach to gardening?
   Of course, the very thought makes it a matter of pleasing the
   spirits of whatever material it is. One could just place stones
   with no thought other than to make the placing pleasing to the eye. even
   then I would define that as following the laws of mother nature :)
   8. Where does aesthetic appreciation leave off and spiritual experience
   begin? Or are they entirely separate?
   You ask really tough questions more thought is necessary a
   successful question is one that makes one think.
   thanks.

Hi Edzard.
This is away from question of Lee. but the article of II of 17 constitution is not from confucianism. The article II said "Respect triple jewel. triple jewel is Buddha, dharma. monk/sangha. The article III is more likly to take power away from Soga Family.

Sushun Empror was assisinated 592 by Sogano Umako who was powerfull politian at the time. When Shotoku taishi was involved politict, his aunt Suiko Empror had power. Even Sogano Umako assinate the Empror , he was still powerfull politician.Sushun Empror was also Prince Shotoku's uncle. Prince Shotoku 's wife is from Soga family, His grand mother is sister of Sogano Umako. Assinated Empor Sushun Emporo was nephew of Sogano Umako.
Later years Sogano Umako's son and grand son killed prince Shotoku's son and most of his decendants. Blood of prince shotoku extincted by borther inlaw and his son.

You have to understand back ground of history at the time. Confuciansim pop up some time , but did not have solid fundtion in the ploitict or soceity like Buddhism had at the time.[ it is soly my opinion ]

If you want to know family tree of Emprors and Sugano Umako , I will send you by mail.
Probably you are the only one want to know detail and care detail of Japanese history and Japanese gardens in this forum.
I don't want to bore other readers in this forum.

If you want to know more about it,send me e mail and tell me what you want to know more, then I will check history book.

Kukai/kobo Daishi and Shingon sect of Buddhism;

For those who are like to know name of Shingon sect sutra :
Dai nichi kyo, Kongocho kyo, Rishu kyo, Dai hannyaharamita kyo, Hannya shin kyo, kegon kyo.Use mainly above sutras but not limied to other sutras.
Tendai sect of school also teachs esoteric Buddhism. Name of Tendai shu is taken fron Chinese Zen master of 6 century Tendai Chigi. His line of Zen is differ from Rinzai shu ,Soto shu, Obaku shu however.

Honen shonin/Saint Honen, The founder of Jodo shu, Nichiren shonin, The founder of Nichiren shu, Eisai zenshi, The founder of Rinzai shu, Shinran shonin , The founder of Jodoshin shu, Dogen zenshi, the founder of soto shu , they were all students of Tendai school.

Lee;
I am sory steer away from your questions. My answer to your # 1 question is similar to the answer of Jando/June. Please send me e mail, responding by writing, it will take me hours to respond. I can answers to your questions much quicker by phone.

Note;
Once Empror died and Empress takes over power, then she is no longer called Empress, She is the "Empror"
mike

In the interest of evaluating the views presented in the JOJG article mentioned by Herb in his first post, I must point out that I found some rather serious discrepancies between the actual Scientific American article (concerning the research of University of Michigan political scientists) and the way its represented in JOJG.

1. The graphic "reproduced" in JOJG has been doctored. JOJG labels the North-South axis as "SECULAR" vs. "RELIGIOUS." The actual Scientific American graphic says "SECULAR/RATIONAL" vs. "TRADITIONAL." The word "Religious" does not appear anywhere in the original graphic.

2. The Scientific American "article" is in fact actually just a one-page news brief.

3. The conclusions JOJG draws about Japan and religion are not supported by the Scientific American article at all.

4. The news brief and the study mentioned therein are not about Japan --- the subject is, rather, modernity. Japan is never even mentioned in the text. After reading the original document, I wondered if the University of Michigan authors even had much understanding of Asian cultures.

"Editing" somebody elses published work is a pretty serious gaff, in my book. Im sure I dont need to point out the irony of JOJG engaging in this behavior, considering how often they accuse others (with or without merit) of the same.

A note to JOJG --- Honestly, you run the danger of marginalizing yourselves by doing things like this. I dont understand why you keep trying to prove things which cant be proven. It has always seemed to me that the real point you are trying to make is that Japanese gardens can be beautiful and can be appreciated fully without any connection to religion and without symbolism. I think practically everyone would agree with you on that. It is also absolutely true that many (probably well-meaning) people have said untrue things about Japanese gardens. But that doesnt mean you cant trust anything you read or hear. You just have to be discriminating.

Your magazine can be a true service to your readers by providing practical information and an honest cross-section of views on subjects concerning Japanese gardens, or it can be a one-sided soapbox and a source of misinformation.

Lee

Amen Lee !
I was wondering my self about sceintic survey Of Univercity Of Michigan political scientists.

This is a letter to my Gw Friend from JOJG
------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for subscribing JOJG during the past year, I was sorry to notice your subscription expired in xxx month.Encoles is a subscriber card just in case you've changed your mind about it.

We (JOJG)are eager to help our subsribers in any way that we can. At the same time, non subscribering professionals will be lucky if we ignore them( rather than sabotage their
careers ). I don't expect JOJG readers to agree with everything we say, but I respect them because I know they are either 1) trying to improve their knowlege, or 2) at least want to monitor what legitimate(keyword) experts
such as Tamao Goda, David Slawson, and Asher Brown have to say.

During the past year I've noticed that you have potential to be an emerging leader in the Sukiya Living world, and I'd like to encurage you to keep study and trying to "up your game" as a Japanese garden specialits.

sincerely
XXXX XXXX
publisher
------------------------------------------------------------
Acuarly My feind know and understand Japanese garden lot's more than so called some of their expart.
while feeding fals information to subscribers , how they can help it's subscribers ?.
In the past they have used name as Kimura , Watanabe and never revealed their information source.
Now I understand why they could not reveal information source (s) . ........................ mike

Lee,

Thanks for bringing these point up. If the JOJG is misrepresenting somebody else's research it is disappointing.

However it isn't 100% clear to me that the JOJG was relying on the December 2003 issue of the Scientific American article. It's true that they mention it, but they also, in a footnote, identify what appears to be the original article by the two scientists - Inglehart and Baker. That appears to have been published in the February 2000 issue of the American Sociological Review.

Not having read either the December 2003 issue of the Scientific American, or the February 2000 issue of the American Sociological Review I have no idea whether the JOJG got their diagram from the one journal or the other.

But it would be interesting to check the latter - I'd very much like to know how the discrepancy arose. Is it possible that it was the Scientific American and not the JOJG that got it wrong?

Herb

If people can bare to be dragged away from the enthralling JOJG saga let me tell you about another magazine. In the current issue of Landscape Architecture (Vol.95 No.1) there is an article entitled 'Beyond the Path'. It is about a couple of "Buddhists (who) wanted (their garden to be) a landscape journey that would represent a spiritual connection to nature. A series of spaces to accomodate everyday life (and) incorporate and encourage the constant rediscovery of nature via all five senses." What the designers came up with from this brief is described as "A modern translation of Japanese garden design (that) creates a spiritual passage through the seasons."
The pictures that accompany the article are very interesting too but I thought the description of what these people wanted was in line with Lee's enquiry.

"If you can't beat 'em join 'em" as someone once, infamously said.
It appears that quite a bit of reseach has been done on the subject of a secular Japan and a lot of it is reviewed on this site
http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/discussionpapers/Fitzgerald.html
It is long and academic but the bottom line seems to be that Fitzgerald thinks the distinction between secular and religious is false or at best, an imposition by westerners.
One of the books referred to suggests that Japanese people are religious without knowing they are, which a curious thing to say but might explain how misleading a research could be if it depended on the answer to a question like "Are you religious?"

Mike,.. all,..
I would imagine many translations exist of the Constitution, I can not trust the truth of any since I was not there, however, the logic of the explanation as outlined by other authors (Reischauer, Aston - Nihongi II, etc., seems valid compared to Tsunoda, which I use here).

Confucianism was the foundation of the Constitution at that time, Article III is the Han Confucian ideal of government: "The Lord is Heaven; the vassal, Earth, Heaven overspreads; Earth upbears. When this is so, the four seasons follow their due course, and the powers of nature develop their efficiency".
...this is from Tsunoda Ryusaku, Sources of Japanese Tradition, 1958, Columbia University (Unesco accepted translation).

Article II goes deeper than the words themselves, which as you've mentioned are quite accurate. i did not say that the Article II is -from- Confuscianism, but it is about Confucianism.
This has to do with 'prajna' that an individual shall be guided by his own inner light, Buddhism, compared to being guided by Celestial Bodies of Heaven.
Shotoku saw this as a problem, because if he was the Divine Ruler, he should be guided by his inner light, being thereby free to rule = Buddhist rule of the Emperor.
This placed the secular, everyday rule under the Confucian rule of being directed by the Celestial bodies of Heaven, and with the Emperor being ordained a Celestial Body, the population would need to be governed by Celestial Bodies.
Therefore the wording is very well crafted with the other Articles of the Constitution indicating the politics of the time that if others were guided by their inner light and not responsible to the Celestial Body of the Emperor, then there would be anarchy.

which happened 1000 years later, when Buddhist warrior monks decided to be ruled by their inner light rather than to follow strictly the celestial Bodies. (there was more to it, so 'not exactly the reason', but for the use of this conversation, is an included result)

Therefore, I would need to stay with the original statement that Confucianism was considered supreme in secular matters and Buddhism in spiritual matters as decreed in the Constitution.
(Mike.. -details found in Nagarjuna from India, via China brought by Kumarajiva = individual to obey only inner light)

This may seem off topic to some, however, shows clearly the garden origins that secular gardens were formed of Confucian thought, being 'gardens of the Virtuous' providing lessons of ethics, moral and nature learning. Whereas non-secular, the spiritual gardens relating to Buddhism, (not Zen yet - Buddhism), were of the exploration of developing the 'inner light', personal guidance, rather than to follow strictly the ways of nature that taught morality etal.

In turn, the lanterns-man made or 'man ascribed' material pieces that made up the garden reflected Confucian thought, secular lanterns (most evident - gonomi) and spiritual inner light gardens that used Buddhist originated materials (lanterns most obvious) indicating 'inner light - spirituality'.

All of this was overlaid on the Shinto (Forest Culture - animistic) basis of space, spatial arrangement (overlaid with 'Art' = Kukai notes previous, development through Han dynasty onward of painting etal) which included 'materials' (lanterns obvious) of earlier origins that the 608A.D. period.

In this way the histories provide insight that different accoutrements in the garden may lead to confused reading of the garden, and that at a certain level of Buddhist 'Truth and Error' should be understandably of the same message.
ie: mixing secular and spiritual, unless that is the statement intended.....
and may be confusing having indicated a spiritual one person inner light experience, or a Confucian ideal of seeking natures morals and ethics. These may be seen as two differing views of the garden, which if compounded with a confusing placement of the ornament, leads to an incomprehensive garden.

edzard

Many thanks to all who are providing interesting comments.

In response to Herb's post:

The (doctored) diagram in question does come from Scientific American (SA). In fact, all JOJG's references to authors, etc. come directly from the SA article. Actually, JOJG mistakenly suggests that the diagram comes from the one article they reference (one of three noted in exactly the same detail in SA), while SA credits it to another book called "Gender Equality and Cultural Change around the World" by Ronald Inglehart and Pippa Norris.

If JOJG had read the original article then why would they bother to mention the SA article (which is really just a review) at all?

These were my thoughts and I was planning to leave it at that, but I decided out of curiosity to look up the original article. It is called "Modernization, Cultural Change, and the Persistence of Traditional Values" by Ronald Inglehart and Wayne E. Baker. You can view it online for yourself at http://wvs.isr.umich.edu/papers/19-51_in.pdf. (Unfortunately, the Scientific American article seems only to be available online for a fee, but I will be happy to mail a copy of it to anyone who's interested.)

When you look at the Inglehart and Baker article, you'll see that the focus is very much not on Japan. These fellows are political scientists, and you'll see they seem rather interested in communism. The closest thing you'll see to an indication that the Japanese don't like God is a table on page 47 called "Percentage Rating the "Importance of God in Their Lives" as "10" on a 10-Point Scale, by Country and Year." The Japanese score low on this. But this only takes into account the Japanese who scored "10" on a scale of 1 to 10, and discounts all other responses (i.e., 1 to 9) (see my comments about data queries below).

When you get into that website you can actually view and query the data (from the World Values Surveys) upon which the article is based --- which is quite fun (although figuring out how to do it takes a bit). A few interesting things I found while snorkeling around in there:

1. They used the same questionnaire for all people from all different cultures and countries. The questions about religion run along the lines of "Do you believe in sin," "Do you believe in God," "Do you attend religious services once a week or more" etc. As a former Japanese translator, I was interested to see how they had translated these questions into Japanese, but that was not available online. In any event, anyone who has spent any time studying or living in Japan might wonder if these questions will be understood as intended in Japan. For example, most Japanese do not identify Shinto as a religion. And are they going to say they have "attended a religious service" when Grandma lights incense at the family altar each day?

2. I did some queries of the 1995-97 survey (there are three surveys, the earliest being in 1981). The majority of the Japanese respondents believe in "God", the majority believe in "the soul" and on a scale of 1 to 10, the majority place the "importance of God" in the mid-range.

3. Finally, there is no statement in either of the articles (Scientific American or Inglehart and Baker) that even vaguely resembles JOJG's claim that "Japan emerges as the single most secular nation..."

It might be interesting to send the JOJG article to Professor Inglehart to find out from the horse's mouth whether it accurately reflects his views.

Lee

Lee,

Like you I have been endeavouring to access both articles. The Scientific American one can, I think, be found here -

http://www.swt.org/share/modernity-sciam-1203high64.pdf

Having read the Inglehart & Baker paper, I see, firstly, that the diagram in the Scientific American review does not appear to be part of the Inglehart & Baker paper. Secondly, (and maybe more importantly) the text of the Inglehart and Baker paper seems (to me) to treat 'religion' as more or less the same thing as 'Tradition' - or at least to regard 'religion' as a sub-group of 'tradition'. For this reason I do not think that the JOJG has published a diagram that misrepresents what Inglehart-Baker had to say.

As to whether the Inglehart-Baker paper actually says that Japan is now the single most secular nation, all that the JOJG says is that Japan 'emerged' that way. Bearing in mind the following footnote from the Inglehart & Baker paper, is that such an impermissible conclusion? -

"These 65 societies show a tremendous amount of variation. In Pakistan, 90% of the population say that God is extremely important in their lives, selecting "10" on a 10 point scale; in both Brazil and Nigeria. 87% select this extreme position....in East Germany and Japan, on the other hand, only 6% and 5%. respectively take this position."

That, I should have thought, supported a conclusion that Japan was the most secular of all the nations reviewed?

For these reasons, I don't think that the JOJG was being either misleading, or that it has doctored the opinions expressed in the papers cited.

Herb

Herb ---Thank you for the link to the Scientific American article. As for the rest, I think we just have a difference of opinion here. To me, it is not all right (or legal, for that matter) to attribute a quote, table, graphic, etc. to somebody then edit their work in any fashion. I also disagree with the notion that the changes were minor, and I question the validity of the conclusions (for the reasons I've already given). But variety is the spice of life, and we are all entitled to our opinions.

Getting back to the meat of the thread, here is another bit to ponder:

In the May 2004 issue (#157) of Niwa magazine (a Japanese language gardening publication) there's an illustrated article on pages 67 to 74 about a workshop for gardening professionals conducted by the Nihon Teien Kyokai on root pruning and transplanting large specimens. The article has numerous photos of the work.

The first thing they do (after sharpening the tools) is to pour sake around the work site. The photo caption reads: "We begin by purifying the site with sake, asking for safety and various other things. This step is important." Next, salt is sprinkled around the site. The photo caption says: "It is also important to purify the site with salt."

OK.

So what is this? Is it religious? Is it spiritual? Is it tradition? Is it a way of paying respect? (If so, to what?) It is definitely not aesthetic or practical. It's also not imaginary.

Any thoughts from forum members?

Lee

Lee - At the risk of exposing just how deep my brand of cynicism runs, I would suggest a more superficial explanation. Is it possible that the leaders of the workshop find this bit of theater useful to: establish authority and expertise; avoid the social risk of breaking tradition; or even to prepare themselves mentally to focus on the task ahead. Throw in some of the "it can't hurt" school of superstition/religion, and you have an enduring practice. It makes me think of two western pre-activity practices: (1) Before batting, many (Latin) baseball players cross themselves, appearing to be pious and penitant when their back stories reveal a different character. But it invokes a higher authority and it can't hurt. (2) Before starting one of his woodworking machines, Norm from This Old House always looks sincerely into the camera and espouses safety gear and machine guards. He then procedes to do the actual operation in flagrant diregard for the safety practices, claiming that they were removed for demonstration only. Culturally, he has to do the right thing. Even if it is a waste of time or of sake.
It's all about the mystery we want in life and finding comfort in sharing that uncertainty.

Thanks also to you and Herb for tracking down those articles. You are right in calling out JOJG for some very sloppy journalism. I read all the background material though and can't help but conclude that by the avaialable measures, the Japanese are today among the most Secular/Rational people in the world. How this would lead one to conclude that the JG tradition arose without "traditional" (esp. religious) influence is baffling however and points out a bigger problem than the journalistic integrity; the lack of logic in the conclusions. I also appreciate the distinction between western definitions of "tradition" like attending relgious services weekly and the "spiritualism" that clearly imbues Japanese culture. The authors are trying to measure the temperature of the Japanese with a ruler. The magnitude of the study is huge, so it isn't fair to criticize them, but it points out the problem with JOJG extracting a correlation and trying to draw unwarranted conclusions.

Most importantly however, I would like to think that the fact that JOJG even tried to cite scholarly works for their articles may be a good sign, perhaps even influenced by the many valid criticisms voiced here?

Construction workers around these parts follow the old tradition of placing a small pine tree on the roof peak of the building they're working on.

I like the idea of the sword resting stone being a place to park your aggression. I would like one - I would put boss' picture on it as I enter my happy place :-)

Don't we run into trouble when we try to emulate a J garden instead of integrating it into our cultural and esthetic reality. If we try to define the actual true J garden outside of Japan then we run many risks such as insult or misunderstanding or insincerity. Would it not be better to integrate what we know and like about the J garden into our own spirit.

In deference to Herb's "birdbath" it makes perfect sense. I do not know how to cunduct a tea cerimony but I do know how to have an inimate dinner party - is there a difference? I plan to create my tea house as a BBQ shack where friends can have have an inimate dinner drinking wine or beer and eating my favorite Q. The spirt and the purpose are there the moment is real, the setting is inspired - the J garden is integrated and complete.

Hi edzard
responding to your Jan 30 posting ;
I don't need translation of the constitution. ^_^. I am
reading as written.
1) prince shotoku is Buddhist.He never built single Confusios mausoleum nor lectured confucianism at royal court. Many temples and schools of Buddhism teach confucios. but it is gunish of dish. Main dish is Buddhism.

2) ever since Buddhism came to Japan AD 538 or Ad 552 Kinmei Empror, Sushun Empror, Yomei Empror, Suiko Empror all four Emprors beleived Buddhism.
[ according record of Gankoji temple, Buddhim came to Japan 538. according "Nihon shoki" Buddsim came 552.]

3) The word of the Lord.
constitution article III said "Mikotori o tamawaritewa kanarazu tsutsushime. kimioba sunawachi Ten to su. Shin oba chi to nsu. Mikotonori= order of Empror . o= is conjunction. tamawaritetewa= when you reiveved , kanarazu= must or have to. tsutusshime = excute the order.
Kimi means Emporo, not heaven.

If you understand politict at the time you will understand why it is not means to be confusism. Useing kanji at the time relatively new thing in Japanese culture. Historians reconizeing that some words of the constitution were barrowed from
Shinto, Confucianism,Taoism.

4. There were two "Nagarjuna" one is Ad150 ~250 . He established one of important theory of mahiyana Buddhism . Other nagarjuna is early 7 century who established thory of Esotric Buddhism .

5) Prince Shotoku never acted as divined ruler. "Nihonshoki" and "Shotoku taishi denryaku" old
literature can tell he never acted divine ruler.He was very loyal to Suiko Empror who is aunt of Shotoku Taishi.

6 Horyoji :
Horyuji temple was one of Headquater of of Hososhu which is oldest sect of buddhism in Japan and oldest and largesit wooden building in the world.

unlike other sect of Buddhism sect Hoso shu had three temples as Honzan/ maintemple or headquater of the sect. One was Horyu ji, Yakishish ji, Kofuku ji. In 1945 Horyu ji decided to leave Hoso shu and start the new sect as "Shotoku taishi shu" /prince shotoku sect.

after 1400 years of tredition, About 1400 years old temple changed it's sect name after Shotoku taishi. If Shtokutaishi was confucian or use Confucium to lead the county, why Horyu ji chenged name of the sect 1400 years later ?

You are believing base on wrong informations. we have many histrical documents about life of Shotoku taishi such as Nihon shoki, Shotokutaishi denryaku, Nihonreiki, Hoketsuki,kojiki, gukansho, lonjyaku monogatari, Gankoji garan engiiryuki shizaicho.

Since your mother is not doing well and my mother too.
My mother broken right arm last week and had cancer operation last November. Just mater of the time , The time will come. We can settle this mater later in sunny days.
^-^. mike

Ps
will you send me a copy of Information you are reading ?

Hi Lee,

Missed you at NE Grows, but caught up with Cady this time so it's all good...

Great questions. I have been one of the biggest supporters of remembering the old traditions of the Jgarden, and I have always approached the topic with a great deal of that in mind. But that is simply because I see ALL gardening as a spritual pursuit, actually ranking it above any religious leanings I do have (also well known hereabouts). To simply dig in the earth and plant things without the implications of being one with the rest of creation would be as impossible to me as drawing breath and leaving out the nitrogen! ;)) So I think the question of spirituality in the Jgarden can leave the J right out and it would still be a controversial (and interesting) topic.

I don't disagree with JOJG that Japan has become a far less religious society, but I do not believe them to be less spiritual (IMHO). Some are simply content to be great pruners and to turn design elements into equations with singularly correct answers. As I age (rather well, I think ;)...), I find that singular answers don't work. I recently read a quote that every problem has a simple solution and it is invariably wrong. Good words to ponder...

Edzard and Yama, an interesting sideline, but as they say down south, I got no dog in that fight. Both elements were entrenched in Japan for a long time and both still have their influences...

Oh by the way, Yama, Doug just sent me a free copy of JOJG. Must have been something in there he wanted me to read, ya think?

Cady, so good to put the face with the name. Get that man up here and we'll step out...

Care to all,
Scott

Scott,
When you find out what Doug was hinting, share with everyone, 'k?

Yes, it was nice to place face with name, and a pleasure to "talk shop" with a fellow hort at New England Grows. Once Yama gets himself settled up here, we'll certainly plan a get-together.

I share the philosophy that all gardening - at least, all aesthetic gardening - is spiritual. And even practical gardening (food, herbs, fiber, etc.) yields subtle satisfactions beyond the immediate addressing of physical needs - though the cultivator likely doesn't think about it, nor is he aware that he is "living the Zen life." ;)

There's a big difference between "spiritual" and "religious." My interpretation of "spiritual," is that intangible quality of transcendance and release that takes your mind and emotions beyond the confines of immediate physical presence. It doesn't necessarily involve belief in a deity, but it does involve a sense of one-ness or inclusion in a greater body (cosmic, natural, whatever).

For example, I know a person who is not particularly religious, but when she sings (in a choir), she steps out of herself. I have seen tears run down her face when she sings "Amazing Grace," and afterwards she tells me that she doesn't know why singing makes her cry -- after all, it's just songs and she doesn't even know whether she "Believes."

Religion, on the other hand, is a set of rigid tenets - rules - that revolve around the belief in, and worship of, a god or gods. A person must follow the "instruction manual" in order to be a member in good standing with this god and all the other human followers.

IOW, religion is an institution, established by people and proffered externally to other people. Spirituality is an intensely personal inner condition that may flourish or dwindle under the ministrations of a religion or religions institution.

Religious symbolism is not necessarily spiritual (and vice versa). Placing religiously-symbolic items in a garden, or designing a garden according to principles of a belief system take a conscious effort and do not necessarily provide spiritual release for the maker.

Anyway, that's my take on part of Lee's questions.

Hi Cady

I think that editorial may have been the inspiration for Lee's question and I'm sure it was the reason for the comp copy; can't say that Doug doesn't keep up the drumbeat once he's started. A shame really; it's a great idea for a mag and it really could be a world leader if the editorial slant evened out. As a marketing person I think he's making a great mistake by eschewing what is obviously a hot topic in the market place; as a "spiritual" gardener, I think he's disenfranchising a lot of us, and as a fan of historical Jgarden design, I think he's fabricating truth, to use a Chomskyism. C'mon Doug, play it straight, let ALL sides of the story get told, and let people choose their position. Your readership and your magqazine, and quite possibly your outlook will all expand...

Here's hoping...
Scott

Thanks again to everyone for some fantastic posts.

I'm still putting together the talk and the slides, but I definitely plan to use some of the material shared here. If I can figure out how (still technologically impaired, I'm afraid), I will post at least a synopsis and bibliography. The talk will be next Wednesday.

Hello to Scott! And by the way, the JOJG editorial was not the inspiration for the questions --- I've had this talk lined up since last summer and have been gathering information since then. I just happened to think at the last moment that it would be interesting to see what you GW regulars had to say on the topic, and I'm glad I did.

Thanks again, and I'm still welcoming comments on the questions for anyone who has been reluctant to share so far...

Best regards,

Lee

Before we can begin to address the implications of spirituality and religion as they pertain to Japanese gardens, I think the terms must first be defined. I will try not to speak blasphemy here, but here is my take on the two terms. Religion can be described as a rigid framework of beliefs which seeks to explain the purpose of life and address the questions of the afterlife. Most religions tend to be dogmatic in their beliefs thereby leaving little room for personal interpretation. Spirituality, on the other hand, seems to be based on accumulated experience rather than faith. A spiritual person recognizes and appreciates the experiences in life which transcend humanness, and interprets those experiences based on their personal level of understanding.

Most simply put, religion and spirituality both serve to explain what it is to transcend human-ness.
Religion defers its followers to a designated path, while spirituality allows a seeker to freely explore the answer.

So does religion and spirituality play a role in the Japanese garden? I think so. I think the nature of the Japanese garden goes beyond simple aesthetics and invites us to realize our fundamental connection with the elements of nature. It invites us to release our grasp of the individual self and merge into the interconnectedness of all life which I think qualifies a spiritual experience.

In the garden, gravel is gravel, gravel is tiny stone, gravel is water, gravel is the ocean...stone is stone, stone is an island, stone is a mountain, stone is buddha...tree is a tree, tree is a waterfall, tree is a cloud, tree is a forest...

This parable shows how the Japanese garden is capable of illustrating the profound:

"Sen-no-Rikyu built a garden enclosed by a tall hedge that blocked the view of the sea. The client for whom the garden was built was unhappy - until he bent to wash his hands in the water basin. The sea then became visible in a gap between the hedges and the client smiled.

As the tea master had hoped, the client realized the intent behind the design. As his mind made the connection between the water in the basin and the great ocean and thus between himself and infinite universe." *

Not to say that every Japanese garden is designed with this intent, but a Japanese garden designed with a spiritual message will undoubtedly be more meaningful and successful than one without. The critical mind is constantly asking 'Why?' and is seeking to make connections in order to understand the relationship of things. And while aesthetics alone may suffice in some forms of art, a truly gripping work of art makes a statement, tells a story, or asks a question metaphorically. A garden created without meaning often becomes mundane or superficial.

To have and arrange all of the elements of a JG is one thing, but to understand the intent of the elements and say something with them will always be more powerful. Japanese gardening is more than design, and it is more than art. At its best, it is a beautiful metaphorical dialogue revealing our truest nature.

-christian m.

You are absolutely correct christian. There are at least 26 definitions of religion on the web so it would be important in a questionnaire to make the meaning of the questions clear to avoid cod research. This one , for instance, appears to include almost everything you list under spirituality in its non-theistic definition of 'religion'.
Oxford dictionary definition (theistic): "1 the belief in a superhuman controlling power, esp. in a personal God or gods entitled to obedience and worship. 2 the expression of this in worship. 3 a particular system of faith and worship." Non-Theistic definition: "The word religion has many definitions, all of which can embrace sacred lore and wisdom and knowledge of God or gods, souls and spirits. Religion deals with the spirit in relation to itself, the universe and other life. Essentially, religion is belief in spiritual beings. As it relates to the world, religion is a system of beliefs and practices by means of which a group of people struggles with the ultimate problems of human life." (Hubbard, 1994). [1: theology]
The question still remains, however, as to why we would expect more in the way of spirituality or religion from a Japanese garden than any other.

Inky, that's just it; some do expect more, and it's generally the less informed who do feel that way.

Many of us came to gardening first and Jgardens secondly. I found a connection with nature first, and found that Jgarden style best expressed that connection for me. Since then, I have also become more of a wild gardener, using plant pallettes that cause some of my peers to use the word "weeds" more than one would like to hear. Still I feel that this style best expresses my conviction to gardening, and I continue...

I have always maintained that the roots of Japanese gardens are religious in origin, and I feel the record bears me out there. But if you or Herb or anyone else finds enjoyment rather than enlightenment, I'm smiling. I believe an understanding of the roots will make better gardens, so I will argue for anyone who truly loves this art form to gain knowledge of Muso Soseki to understand karesansui, to understand the Buddhist triad to help place stones, to know about the Fudo Myo-o when designing a waterfall...Much of gardening is in the lore, and most of the lore of the Japanese garden is Buddhist. If the seminal point for Jgardens was Rastafarianism, I'd be talking about Haile Selassie instead of Buddha, and if the roots were in Noh then we would be discussing the garden as a stage. How can you know where you're going if you don't know where you've been?

Hey Lee, just got your pamphlet for the talk; that cleared up everything for me...:) Hope it goes well and I have to get to one of yours, as you've sat through one of mine (brave girl...)

Scott

Hi Scott! --- Far too modest about your excellent design talk. I'm glad you were not too offended by my extremely un-Tao-like brochure of shameless self-promotion...

And to the mysterious INKognito --- Thank you especially for the link to T. Fitzgerald's article (and the excellent bibliography listed there) on Religion and Japan. I wanted to send you an individual e-mail about it, but you are, well, INKognito.

Many of you have contributed comments which have been very helpful --- thank you.

Lee

"The question still remains, however, as to why we would expect more in the way of spirituality or religion from a Japanese garden than any other."

Because that is the intent of the design...as i understand it.

The Japanese garden was, after all, greatly influenced and refined by monks and philosophers. Its there, only its subtle....there to be discovered. No shimmering crucifixes or towering likenesses. Subtle and persistent and intentional.

The fact that we are even having this discussion practically validates the premise. Would this ever qualify as a legitimate topic of conversations regarding English gardens, or Italian gardens, French gardens, Early American, Modern, Abstract....

Or...maybe ive got it all wrong, and it really is just a fancy way of planting bushes and trees?

-christian

This opens up a whole new area of enquiry christian that is certainly pertinent to Lee's question and the bigger notion of spirituality and religion. Of course the motivation for gardens around the world was religious or spiritual or maybe we can add philosophy to the mix. Yet for some reason we do not look for a vision of paradise (a religious experience) in an English garden nor do we credit an Islamic garden with the same reverence as a Japanese garden. Even the French garden epitomised by Versaille was loaded with formal examples of the current philosophy, as well as glorifying the deity the Sun King presented himself as.
So my question remains, perhaps adding 'What sustains this expectation when most other gardens are viewed as "just a fancy way of planting bushes and trees?"

Have a look at http://www.abc.net.au/religion/stories/s939919.htm if you are interested in spirituality and religion in gardens generally, including Japanese.

I'm with Christian on this one, Inky. To attempt to explain would be, well, most un-Zen-like. If it was designed as a Buddhist teaching tool (as some were back in the day), the last thing a teacher would do would be explain it ( "You got one hand, see? Now clap with it...") ;)

Leaving Buddhism behind, Shinto deifies all of nature. It is the state religion, and wide spread if not terribly well followed by the masses (Safe to say our previous conversations have noted the lack of religious fervor in modern Japan). Yet the reverence of nature is so inculcated in the Japanese people, much the same way Christianity has become an embedded culture here in the States, that the garden IS a more reverential experience for them, and not just a passionate hobby as it is for us or the English. Hence the gardens should contain a higher value as the people have a developed appreciation. May we develop the same appreciation here; then people might start putting thought into their gardens instead of plywood cut-outs of fat ladies derierres...

To clear my head of the nonsense of late, I just finished re-reading The Sakuteiki (translated version). Admittedly, this is just one source, but I think that it pretty well clears up the question at hand...

One of my favorite books/movies is "A River Runs Through It." I think the reason I like it so much was the impression I got that spirituality (and the "R" word...) can take many forms. The character that Pitt played in the movie was spiritually and morally challenged if judged by conventional mores. Yet, he attained a state of grace while fly fishing. Similar to the great European art masters.

Could not tinkering to perfection in the garden also be linked to states of "grace", whatever diety (or none) that person chooses to believe in?

Is striving for perfection in the garden almost a spiritual experience?

Please no flames...

Well, sure, but you're talking about something that is personal - something that is inside YOU, not the activity at hand. It would be very incorrect, I think, to say "fly fishing is religious" or "deer hunting is spiritual," even though some people might see it that way.

When people start saying Japanese gardens are religious it just irritates the heck out of sensible people who realize that a tree is just a tree. It's better to keep the religion/spiritually bit private, or at least avoid attaching it to an activity that is obviously secular to nearly every person in Japan.

iandad...May I suggest that you locate a copy of the autobiography "The Earth Is Enough" by Harry Middleton. The sub-title is "Flyfishing, Trout, & Old Men. Fits right in with your thoughts. Great read! I have always hoped someone would discover it for a movie.

Mostly lurk on this Forum but as I have followed the above discussion my mind keeps wandering back to one of my Dad's landscape customers years ago who built a magnificent, authentic Japanese home by the ocean. "Design me a no maintenance Japanese garden on the three acres around the house," he said. "And, as I walk through it I want to experience my years of living in Japan, nature and the spirituality of the garden".

I think maybe I will hold off telling the final design for awhile. Some of you might want to think about it for a bit. The owner was very pleased. I walked through the garden again about 20 years ago, sat on one of the few rocks and meditated; so aware of the garden's spirituality, the earth sounds, the smell of sea, salt and growing things. To me that is a Japanese garden. I want honest, not cute.

So, Ryoanji and other temple gardens (created by Zen monks) are void of spirituality? And yes, I know this is but one style...

Tea Gardens?

Am I really missing something on these two styles??? Please illuminate me. Historically speaking, I can't help but make a religious connection...

I agree each should seek their own interpretation of what is spiritual to themselves. And yes, I get it that Japan is a very secular nation now.

As a Buddhist I just don't get what a garden, Tea, "Zen", or English formal has to do with Buddhism.

Any person is influenced by his life's experiences. I think it is far too easy to attribute everything done within a culture to one aspect of those individual's lives. Depending on the thing we are describing it can either be a great cultural legacy that we can take a bow for recognizing or a stereotype that would make us bigots.

Do we equate Versailles with being Catholic? Why do we equate with religion? In France there was pretty much one religion. In Japan there is a lot of diversity in religion. I don't get it.

I think it is because we can't know what it is to be part of this culture and neither can those around us in American suburbia. That makes it OK to not understand it as a visual art - because we can't. But to know of the culture of the people who made the gardens is to put us closer to them than those who know less. If it is categorized as a visual and horticultural art, to not understand it is to admit ignorance.

Is it better to be a scholar who knows, yet can not do, or can one be culturally ignorant, yet can do it?

Hello, I've been away from this group for an extended period but noticed it's still vibrant and I even recognize some old-timers :-). So hello! There seem to be certain topics that foreign gardeners fond of Japanese culture tend to repeat over and over, sometimes in spite of themselves. The relationship of gardening to "zen" (I use the word rather loosely) is one.
Personally, FWIW (and please notice the FWIW), I differ with quite a few of the sentiments expressed above. While I agree with some that the background religions of Japan have played a huge role in the culture and development of Japanese gardens over the centuries (hence somewhat disagreeing with the stance advocated, say, by the JOJG), I have observed that for the most part, Japanese folks are not particularly religious in a conventional sense. Many folks familiar with Japanese culture have already noted this in various contexts, and it is (somewhat) supported by polls that have been conducted in various countries. Fact is, there is a huge difference between a background culture that has evolved over the centuries vs. someone's own involvement in that background as a spiritual tool. In other words, it could be the case that the vast majority of folks take their spiritual culture for granted and do not necessarily persue it as an individual discipline :-) Hence, a personal involvement in gardening as a "spiritual" persuit may say more about the individual than any particular norm they think they are being faithful to...
I personally have noticed Japanese seem to get a big kick out of foreigners interpreting their culture as somehow saturated with zen, enlightenment struggles, yada yada...It's a source of amusement.
Since this is a topic that reoccurs often in this forum and is very contentious, I don't plan on a lot of follow-ups myself. Just a personal observation, take it for what it cost you.
Regards,
Jim

I don't pretend to know a whole lot about the Japanese culture, but I have had the feeling that the western tendency toward shrouding everything that is not part of our own understanding with religion or mysticism might be amusing to some of the eastern cultures. It amuses the heck out of me.

These are real gardens built with real objects. Some of those were ubiquitous utilitarian things in the past that we tend to see as primary objects that make the garden.

I wonder, if our culture melts into history and another looks back at it, what they will apply the same notions to. Will it be generally accepted that a prairie garden needs to have axles from a double-wide in order to be culturally correct? Will your spirit be out of balance if there are no washing machines in a garden in central Maine?

I once saw an HGTV program where a chrome car bumper was added to complete the requirements to have an authentic feng-shui. I definitely thought it was time to put some boots on because something was getting deeper than spiritual thoughts (anyone familiar with the Frank Zappa song "Flakes"?, of course I am not)

Landscapes are living visual art that can be analyzed just as any other visual art. It does not matter what motivated the artist to do what he did. What is important is to understand what he did, why it works, and how to use these affects in our own way.

Can you imagine interpretting white picket fences. "White for purity, sharp pickets to defend the spirits of the protestants from the demons of hell, 90 degree angles in the fence to keep the people's spirit from losing the order greated by the church, Thorned roses over arbors to to keep Satan from coming through the gate, .... Yes, the mystic world of New England as it is today being interpretted by scholars some time in the future.

Hi laag,
I enjoyed your comments, it goes to the heart of this business of people going overboard trying to add their own "spirituality" to simple gardening tasks and objects.

What this earnest (but somewhat misguided) effort tells me is nothing about Japan, per se, but it does illuminate quite a bit that many Westerners feel some kind of hole in their own religious culture (i.e., maybe many are burned out with standard organized religious institutions) and so are "looking to the East" for spiritual inspiration. I suppose there's nothing wrong with that, except that it leaves one very open to romantic, naive views of the new culture they're trying to adopt :-).

Basically, it comes down to a question of self-honesty. Very seldom will you see somebody get on a chat group on Asian topics and admit, "Gee, I really formed some terribly naive opinions of this culture, and now I see some warts and have learned to look at things a more balanced way..."
In fact, I look in vain for such admissions anywhere, human nature being what it is :-)
Self-honesty can be a painful process. People will fight over their belief that Japanese gardening, for instance, is literally infused with Shinto, Zen, etc. etc., but not even take the time to examine whether they are conveying romantic ideals they've formed reading their own selective book collection...
It's amusing to me too.
Regards,
Jim