Mike - Whenever I think of the BBC and Japanese gardening, I think of the atrocious red plastic gazebo that they were touting a few years ago as being a 'Japanese' addition to a garden. The BBC's flimsy garden shed turned pottery studio turned 'teahouse' seems little better.

One thing's certain - if the NHK ever document English gardens, the NHK will do a better job than the BBC. Herb

Quelle horreur!
Looks like a film set from a John Waters' adaptation of the Mikado - starring Divine.

She would most likely have worn that red gazebo as a hat! (check wardrobe).. as she frolicked coquettishly as Yum yum Farnsworth.

Jack

Wow, how did that English garden gazebo get all the way over to Japan?
The "Pond with an Island" was very moving, I must say. It makes me want to plant a hosta in my fish pool.

Thanks, Mike. :)

The teahouse is from Lowes. It had lawn mowers in it last week, honest!

Yes, because everyone knows that hostas belong in the middle of ponds... and hanging lanterns look EVER so "authentic" when "strategically placed" on top of a rock... I couldn't help but chuckle when thinking of all the shudders running up the spines of GW'ers.

Honestly though, isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery? At least they're trying...

-Susan

If anybody wants to see the BBC's idea of a "Japanese" gazebo, it's here. It may perhaps be wood, but it looks like plastic to me -

Click here

And some of my friends often wonder why I always point out that I am Irish and not British !
I am quite shocked that the content of this very poor TV programme should make it all the way over there. I dont know if you are aware but it is an "instant garden in a weekend" type of thing that produces very poor results even when they do British/European style gardens. Yes the Shed was bad, the island too, the "monoliths" as they were called were very bad, though some rather nice stepping stones were used. What made me smile most was the woman for whom the the garden was made as a surprise was Japanese (married Englishman) and I could only think 'Whatever would the relatives think if they ever come to visit from Japan ?'

Lest anybody get the impression that the BBC's taste is quintessencially English, here's part of a garden - or rather landscape - laid out between 1741 and 1780 at Stourhead, England. If, as Mike suggests, the NHK ever do a program on English gardens, I would hope they might include this -

Click here

To all!

Naughty, naughty! Be nice to your fellow gardeners.Not everybody is so perfectionist like most of you. It wasn't so bad than the "Zen Sand Beach" or the "Zen Sand Beach Garden" by To Port. I still have nightmares about that.

Andrea

Hi Andrea
We can sugest to webster that definition of expert have to add or chenge.
adding the definition of expert;
except gardening. "expert" of gardening can be anyone.don't have to have experiance nor knowlege.It is ok to tell others that hosta can grow in water.
I should be proud my self about my English skill. If she /he is expert of gardening, horticulture, Japanese garden, I can call myself Expert of English. ^-^ , hehehe

It is remind me that when I intervied a young man many years ago, He said "I have 12 years of experience ", he was only 21 years old.

We just having fun :):):). but when watch or listen BBC's world news, If that is BBC's standard of accuracy, I rather listen or watch NHK's news, NBC, ABC or Fox. The article may not have anything to do with BBC, but it has BBC name ...............mike

Hi Mike!

You are right! But I lost interest in TV long time ago, I rather read or watch the birds in my garden or the squirrels as they play with my cats ( true, I have photos to proof) or the JM seedlings to germinate,....etc.

And YES, you can be proud of your English skill! Accept criticism only in written Japanese if somebody can do that.

Was good to hear from you. Andrea

Mike,

this tv programme has nothing to do with news and certainly would not claim to have been creating an authentic or even accurate representation of a Japanese garden. It goes out at 8.00pm, its purely main stream tv showing people what they can create in a small space on a low budget in a very short space of time. They have also done similar projects abroad, some in the states and even creating a garden for Nelson Mandela in S africa. This was thier fist attempt at anything with a Japanese theme and clearly was not aimed at the purists.

Ronald Reagan once said "Facts are stupid things" he also said that we should be careful not to "Throw out the bath tub when we throw out the baby".
To translate that, let me say that we should be careful not to throw out the baby when we throw out the bath water, meaning: the BBC do not endorse the accuracy of a gardening programme in the same way that they report the news.
The garden shown would not stand up to the scrutiny of someone steeped in the Japanese garden tradition but it may serve as a starting point for the owners or as learning fodder for its viewers The programme is not meant to be a documentary so we should not criticise it as if it were, it is another example of TV following a trend or maybe propelling a popular interest in gardening. If the garden does not work for those who frequent this forum it may be more beneficial to say why it doesn't work and to suggest an alternative rather than just to look down on it in a snobbish way.
The above posts also contain a certain amount of stereotyping that may not be very helpful either, not all Englishmen wear bowler hats any more than all Japanese appreciate traditional Japanese gardens.

According to his son Auberon, the writer Evelyn Waugh (who was very much a social climber) for many years called Claret 'Clart', because he thought that the top aristocracy called it that. "Have a glass of Clart" he would say.

One day, another writer - who was a considerably higher on the social scale than Waugh - wrote a light-hearted piece about "a certain Gloucestershire landowner" who had the mistaken impression that the aristocracy always said "Clart".

This, the writer said, might be mistaken, but it was better than using lower-class expressions, and shouldn't be thought too gauche because it at least showed "an impulse towards gentility".

Waugh was so embarrassed at this that he moved from Gloucestershire to another county and never, ever drank Claret again, and drank only Burgundy.!

Similarly, perhaps it can be said that the BBC's efforts show at least "an imulse towards Japanese Gardening"?

At the same time, when it comes to news, I share Mike's general lack of faith in the BBC. The impulse of BBC - like the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation - is often towards political correctness rather than unbiased accuracy.

To 'hear' the Waugh's and Japanese gardens in the same breath is difficult for me to cope with, aren't these the same bunch that had a problem with whether to put the milk in tea first or not? Come the revolution all this in-breeding will have to stop!
To get us back on track: let's assume that the motivation behind constructing a tea house is "using humble materials in a refined manner" would this "flat pack" shed qualify as humble materials and were those materials used in a refined way? Would Rikyu have approved?

Sorry you find the analogy difficult. The fact is that Waugh senior was a keen gardener & went to great lengths to plan a haha though I don't know if he ever had it constructed. As for tea, I thought it was only the southern, middle class who agonised over the milk problem.

I concur that in building a teahouse a good motivation may certainly be to use humble materials in a refined manner, but humble isn't quite the same as 'tacky' is it? For all I know, maybe Rikyu would have acknowledged it as an impulse towards 'humble'?

Having been (un)fortunate enough to actually see this broadcast I can confirm that the intention was never to build a tea house (whether it be Rikyu's or anybody else's taste) The structure was actually where the couple did their pottery, it was to house a potters wheel. For the purpose of the garden style the intention was to try to disguise the shed to blend it in somewhat with the landscaping. Far from trying to defend the content of this programme I would once again stress it was not intended to create an authentic Japanese garden (or tea house)

IMO, a pre-fab shed from a mass-production manufacturer is not representative of "humble" materials. Its very purpose was to immitate a "real" garden house or outbuilding contructed by an artisan. In other words, it's a poseur with pretentions of "class."

I'd rather see a rough-hewn structure constructed of cast-off, "re-purposed" lumber from an old outbuilding, branches and sticks from the home woodlot or brush pile, and broken clay crockery from the potting bench as roof tiles. That would be truly humble, industrious and representative of the effort and resourcefulness of the builder. Worthy, indeed, of being a teahouse. :)

The garden appears too busy, crowded, and lacked flow in my opinion. When designing for small spaces these factors become very important for the garden to work. A lot of the ingrediants were there, but it wasn't 'cooked' right.

Designing a garden with the time constraints, low budget and bright spotlights that is inherent in this endeavor is difficult at best. I wonder how many of us could do as well as Charlie under the same circumstances?

If it causes some folks to look a bit deeper into JN gardens then the article is a good thing.
None of us began at the level we are at now.
Probably see them having a stroke in the next issue of JOJG

Cady,

I can only try to stress once again that the purpose of the structure was NOT to imitate a 'real' garden house or outbuilding constructed by an artisan. It was actually the most important part of the garden to the couple for whom it was built, their pottery shed. The rest of the garden surrounding their shed was designed in a Japanese style (if thats an acceptable term) to 'remind the Japanese lady of her home country' whilst living in London.

Feeling a national great shame on my shoulders here ;-)

What can I say? One of the quirks of Britain is that gardening is seen as something anyone should have a go at. In continental Europe they keep more of a distance and stick to the basics.

Your average Brit wouldn't think twice about modelling their suburban plot on Versailles and indeed our numerous 'garden centres' abound with abysmal repro statuary.

Visited a nearby garden last year that was meant to have a Japanese area only to find it was cobbles and topiary, amazing corkscrew trained yew however, but not a trace of the East.

English ideas of Japanese gardens got off to a bad start with an initial idea that they were full of flowers. Then as exotic bamboos made their way into collections the popular imagination centred around them. The whole 19thC 'chinoiserie' fad created a false view of the mystic East that persists. Nowadays a 'severity' myth pervades, Japanese gardens are thought to be all gravel, no flowers, highly masculine.

Amidst this cultural bric a brac we garden on :-)

It is all somehow reminiscent of that retail garden horror, "Meadow in a Can"; just sprinkle the magic dust all over your yard and a meadow will magically appear. Of course the reality is you get a few species that actually like where you have spread it and they're never the ones that anyone wanted in the first place...

This looks a lot like "Japanese Garden in a Can"...

Disgusted in Connecticut

Shall we get a moon gate, a stone lantern, and bamboo squirt gun that can be set on a rock and package it as a Japanes Garden kit?

All in good fun. I found this thread to have some interesting discussion and thought that there may be some lurkers who might like to read it and possibly be inspired to feel comfortable enough to add to it or start a new discussion.

Laag,
I took your advice and reviewed this older thread and there is some good discussion and a chance to learn. It would be even better if there were suggestions to improve the shortcomings. It was an attempt to create a Japanese garden for mass consumption and in the TV medium. It looks kinda Japanese to me and likey is an improvement on the original space.
I looked at the island and said "now that's interesting-do I like the hosta as a water plant or not-does it fit? Maybe it's supposed to be like water hyacinth but not invasive. What I would like to know is what would make the island better. I think that I like the proportions and selection of the rocks but if the hosta goes, we just have rocks. Would a gravel or sand area replacing the hosta be an improvement? I think that the gravel or sand would need to extend past the big rocks and not be surrounded by them.
That's the kind of discussion I would enjoy. I don't care to read much criticism of efforts without suggestions for improvement.

Why do we see these 5 images as being Japanese at all. The only thing that is Japanese about them are not the compositions, but the items in them.

Tea House:
A tool shed with some bamboo stapled to the doors and some chairs refitted with bamboo. I'm waiting for the Professor and MaryAnn to come by with a coconut cream pie.

A puddle with a rock in it, marble chips, groups of stones to for stepping stones, a stone lantern, and a "bonsai" shrub. Again, no compositional strength that identifies with Asian gardens or even Western garden composition just stuff we equate with Asian gardens.

Somehow it seems that people want to dismiss the idea that lanterns were there to light the pathway. It seems to occur to no one that the plantings and other elements are placed to diffuse the visual power of the object. The feeling I get when looking at a JG is of repose.Everything is balanced out in a different way. The joy about it is that these powerful object DON'T scream at you.

This is why I said that we ought to package a moon gate, bamboo tinkler, and a stone lantern (heck, the cheap metal ones could work) and call it a JG kit.

Could someone please straighten the leaning rock?

... I got it.

{{gwi:1007186}}

I think Scott with his Japanese garden in a can pre-dates your Jg kit idea by more than two years laag.
"Why do we see these 5 images as being Japanese at all. The only thing that is Japanese about them are not the compositions, but the items in them."
and then "The feeling I get when looking at a JG is of repose. Everything is balanced out in a different way."
My question is, would it be possible to take what we are assuming are the pre-requisites of a Japanese garden and arrange them to achieve a sense of 'repose' which may be as simple as making sure standing stones are upright?

You have to start somewhere.

Hi, I'm British and should explain that this garden was done for Ground Force, an instant makeover program. Thus it's hardly a mature garden being only 2 days old when these photographs were taken.

Britons love gardening and love adding exotic touches to their suburban plots. In my open garden visiting I have seen far worse evocations of Japanese design than the one shown above. It does at least have a sparse colour palette and plenty of rock. In fact the reasons why it fails really do go to the heart of what gives a garden that true Japanese feel.

From the photos I'd judge this is a suburban strip garden, long and thin. Part of the problem is packing alot of the view crossways so things look cramped, a better solution might have been a meandering path with reveals.

Part of the wrongness IMHO is the two standing rocks, they are too dominant, too tense - like dogs permanently standing on their hind legs. They also have shapes that make me think of ghostly monks or vampires with cloaks. Both could be reformed simply by lying them on their sides. As it is they remind my of what the Sakuteiki calls 'rivets on a helmet'.

The pond imbalances the design, although the Japanese abhor symetry a 'double gourd' pond shape with a bridge or stepping stones would be far better than the conflict between earth and water evoked by this design.

Actually the detail of the pond banks is problematic too. There should be strong boulders at the water's edge but the water lamely meets the gravel, even the line of driven logs style would be better. Then there's a rock positioned partly as part of the gravel sea and partly on the pond edge. It's like the pond has overflowed to sabotage a decent karensansui arrangement.

The stepping stone path is too organic, suggesting another rock arrangement. It should have used more artificial 'I'm a path' stylings.

The acer is too upright, it's probably been grown for an 'umbrella' or 'dome' shape, there's none of the 'reaching for the sky' or 'laid low by the wind' vibe that Japanese acers should have.

Cytania-thank you for your descriptions on the problems and explanations/solutions. It really helps me break the whole down into parts and build it back up again changed.
My comments: Two standing rocks-got it, agree
Pond imbalance-There seems to be a balancing section of pond in the lower right so I'm not sure that the overall aggangement is offensive to me.
Pond banks-got it and agree
Path-needs to be better defined and go to lantern, lacks purpose.
Upright acer-not sure.I have seen the dome shapes look good in other arrangements. It looks bad matched with the upright rock as is. I don't think that laid over would even help. Perhaps if it was elevated a lot and placed in the back left. I would move the big leaf dark green thing that block the view from the "Tea house/garden shed" to the left and put it where the variegated one is. I'm not sure that I have ever seen variegated foliage in a Japanese garden setting.
Thank for your insight.