Hi,
I prefer my rocks to have a bit of green on them it seems to give them that old and ancient appearance which looks more authentic.
George.

Here is a link that might be useful: George's Japanese Garden

I'm far from the level of knowledge of many of the regular posters here. But someone once told me that Japanese Gardening, throughout its very long history, encompasses just about any and every gardening practice you can think of. So somebody somewhere probably did (maybe still does) scrub his or her garden stones. Personally I like the licheny-mossy look, so I'd recommend leaving it.

But it's all about what you want your garden to be. Are you going for that "been here forever" look? Then leave it. Are you going for the "stark and pristine" look? Then take it off. Whatever fits with the intent of your particular garden is what's best.

That would be, in case you didn't notice, my ever-so-humble opinion. :)

-Susan

The location may have a lot to do with thier appearance. Or how long they have been in place. The appearance of age in a Japanese Garden is preferred and moss growing on stone definatly makes it look older. Stone in full sun would appear cleaner. I really have never heard anyone remark about scrubing stone to keep it clean in the garden.

Cheers Jando

I think it may depend on the rock. A particularly fine rock may lose some of its attraction if moss gets a foorhold. On the other hand if a rock that has the look of being newly blasted out of a quarry, moss taking hold in its crevices may improve its appearance.

I don't wish to sound like an authority on this, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I have lived in Japan for over 20 years and I have never heard of someone trying to "clean" stones in a garden. I think- and I am reaching here- it would be looked upon as a mild form of "vandalism".

The person who gets the rock to put it up for sale cleans it. After the rock is installed in the garden (and whatever dirt that was picked up during installation rinsed off) it would not be cleaned, though it may be wetted for aeshetic reasons or to encourage moss.

The sky in Japan is often gray and overcast and algae and moss add sorely needed color. Because of the overwhelming grayness, water (ponds, waterfalls) and evergreens have a central role in the design.

In a letter to me last October, Wybe Kuitert (professor and author) said this:

"Last week I returned from Japan where we had our eighth Intensive Seminar.... Ryoanji was a shocking surprise. All the rocks of the garden had been completely cleaned of their age-old covering of soot, dirt, lichen and moss. Quite amazing and bold indeed! It showed pinkish (!) and blue stones of various mineral qualities and textures. Amazing to see how different many of the stones are in fact. Honestly speaking: the composition falls apart..."

Lee

Lee -

I think you have identified at least one good reason for cleaning rocks - the accumulation of soot.

50 years ago, many public buildings in England were so coated with soot from industrial pollution that their stone exteriors were entirely black. I doubt anybody who composed a rock arrangement for a Japanese garden would want it to become marred by industrial soot. I can't think that rocks in that sort of state would enhance a Japanese garden.

Herb

Wow Lee, now that is an interesting tidbit of news to shake the JG community. Ryoanji is such an icon, i find it a little bit disturbing to hear this news. I wonder if they will also clean the beautiful weathered patterns from the earthen walls surrounding the garden?

I have to think that it is perhaps a lesson about impermanence...everything is always changing and nothing is ever permanent. And in another twenty years there will again be mosses and lichen covering the stones. I just wonder if the cleaning of the stones is a ritual that is performed on some sort of schedule...say every 100 years.

-christian

Hi Christian --- Yes, it is disturbing and difficult to understand.

Wybe's only other comments about it were 1) that he was surprised none of the students in the seminar appeared to notice the difference between the garden and the photos of it in their brochures, and 2) the question "Does this cleaning action predict what is coming in the 21st century?"

It would be interesting to interview the people at the temple to ask them why the cleaning was done and how they arrived at the decision to do it.

I know that gardens and buildings sometimes are restored to their original state to the dismay of people who have become accustomed to their "aged" appearance. When you have only one ancient garden or building, which is better --- the original appearance or the current aged appearance? Of course there is also the question of whether the original builders ANTICIPATED the garden improving with age and patina.

The same problem exists with the Byodoin at Uji where they are contemplating restoring the original gaudy orange paint job on the 1,000-year-old wooden building.

Lee

Hi,
At the moment in the UK we have a weekly TV programme "Going Round The World In 80 Treasures" and last week it was China and Japan and I couldn't believe the colours of the rocks at Ryoan-ji as Lee says some were pink and some blue, infact I remarked to my wife about the colours, and it certainly didn't look like I have seen it on other photos, to me it looked a lot better on the older photo's.
George.

Here is a link that might be useful: George's Japanese Garden

Hi all,

I am going to hunt the internet for after photos as soon as I post this. If anyone has photos of the garden after the boulders were cleaned it would be appreciated if someone posted them. I will if I find any. I too am surprised they cleaned off the moss and lichens. And here I am trying to get them to grow on my stone. Who'd a thunk!!!!!!

Cheers Jando

I can't be sure, but I think these two pictures may be before and after versions of one of the rocks -

Herb

hmm ... Perhaps we are only seeing the early stages of this transformation.. an attempt to capture a wider audience?

Here is a link that might be useful:

Hi Asuka,

I can believe that Bart would go for that look, but I think Homer, with his love of sushi and near-death experience with fugu, might have developed more of the wabi-sabi sensibility.

Lee

Most of the rocks in these pictures at Daitokuji ryogen-in ryugentei seem to be quite free of moss, even though they're surrounded by a carpet of moss. Whether they've been cleaned, or whether they're a sort of rock that's doesn't let moss grow on it I've no idea.

I'm equally uncertain whether I'd like them better if there were moss growing on them - but (I think) they're very handsome rocks. What do you think? Would you prefer them with moss growing on them?

Lee,
Yes, you'd think so wouldn't you.... but alas, Homer's optic nerve can only experience wabi-sabi as hi-octane primaries heheh..

..joking aside, I hope all this rock scrubbing isn't the beginning of an absurd trend..

Jack

Hey Jack,

Could it be...

Ryoanji zen garden and fun park....fun for the whole family. Sheer marketing genius!

Herb,

The rocks are mossless, but i do see many beautiful lichen adorning them. To scrub them clean would certainly detract from the effect.

-christian

:)) Christian,

All it will need then, is a multi-storey rollercoaster behind that adobe wall...'course, those trees'll hafta go..

..but I wonder if there isn't a more prosaic explanation ..what with all these internships..

"I SAID.. Go scrub out the john, Blanche san!"

Jack

Christian -

I hadn't noticed the lichens. Now that you've pointed them out, I can see them & I think they're very nice.

Herb

According to scholars I respect, the Ryogen-in Ryuugintei mentioned by Herb is supposed to be the oldest surviving karesansui. It would have had no moss at all in its original incarnation.

Experts (who shall remain unnamed) say that certain people involved in the restoration of the wall around Ryoanji did some unauthorized digging and discovered charred debris UNDER the garden. (Everyone admits that the buildings burned down in the 1700s, but the temple (and Mayor Quimby) has claimed the garden survived).

Lee

Scandal! The Ryoan-ji exposed as a fraud! JOJG editors crown Adachi as the new throne of J-gardening. Pictures (including cartoon characters and roller coasters) at 11!

Yet someone still rakes the garden every morning just like the 255,500 days (or so) before it...

I don't know about Ryoan-ji being a fraud, but I do incline to think that it's over-rated - and so is Adachi. ( Incidentally, the imaginary, jazzed-up Zen garden that I put in the Gallery is adapted from Ryoan-ji).

I very much agree with Steve Beimel (see his piece in the March/April issue of the JOJG) where he says that he thinks that - "....small, well-executed entry gardens and tsuboniwa courtyards are underrated......" To my mind, the layouts in these are much more suited to the comparatively small back yards that most of us have to work with.