Your gate looks great. The doors will effectively "privatize" your garden nicely. I hesitate to say this, but... have you considered moving the tsukubai and all inside the gate? This would solve your dilemma of opposing schemes in the entryway corridor to the garden entrance. And have the added benefit of these wonderful elements inside the garden area, as opposed to outside. Just a thought.
How far away is the pond from the grass shown to the left in the picture with the bench?
Remember eating the elephant, wise counsel.
Going outside now to move rocks and plants, again.

Dave

Hendrik,

This doesn't really answer your question about the gate but - like Itfuzz I hesitate to say this - have you considered that the arrangement might also look Japanese (and the gate and its hardware would get some protection from the rain) if you convert the Torii into a roofed gate? Somewhat like this (the roof is borrowed from Steve's new gate (q.v.)) -

Herb

Click here

Thank you for your quick and kind comments!

About moving the tsukubai. It isn't much of a problem actually, since the two elements dont interfere with eachother (the tsukubai scene and the "rocky" scene on opposing sides). And since my garden have (almost) only open space, its hard to find somewhere to fit a tsukubai without adding LOTS of additional material (trees, shrubs, rocks).

About the roof, that was excellent! With your design herb, I can keep the torii as it is, and just adding the roof section. Have to figure out how to make it first ;) But it cant be that hard?

And what about teh roof tiling? I have no clue where to buy the classic roof tilings that makes it look good. Are they available even in uncivilized countries like sweden? I have no idea what to name them.... lol..

About the pond. If you are standing in the gate, the pond is about 4.5 meters "north-north-east".

If you look at the gate pic... there on the left of teh gate, there is a big open space (by teh fence)... I have been thinking about planting ferns or a bush of bamboo there... would that make the view too distracting you think? I have the wisteria on the right of the gate..

kind regards
Henrik

Henrik -
I suggested a roof because I too built a Torii about 10 years ago and later converted it to a roofed gate!

It wasn't difficult. The main thing (I think) is to make the pitch of the roof shallow enough - the JOJG recommends a pitch between 4/10 and 5/10 which is shallower than we westerners are used to. You can get an idea of the recommended angle by drawing a right-angled triangle with the two short sides 20cm and 8cm.

I don't know where you'd get classic roof tiling. I'm not sure I'd want to use tiles. For one thing I think they're very heavy & you might have to make the entire structure stronger. A lot of these roofs use lighter things like cedar shakes.. I just used two sheets of marine plywood and nailed the shakes on them, but for a roof over your gate, I think Steve's creation would be a lot more suitable than mine.

Herb

A note to all, it looks like i violated some copyrights by using an existing photo of doors as a test in the pics above. Of course I had no hidden agenda with this, just used some pics of gate doors I found on the web and placed them in my pic to see what my gate would look like with doors. Apololgies to everyone concerned....

Now, I will try and make some doors this weekend. ABout teh roof, it is not obvious on teh pic, but the torii is very close to my garage roof. I think this is why I didnt build the sukiya-mon to start with :)

If I ever start such a project I will look for the correct roof tiling... not using the heavy ones in clay, but some nice once made of wood.

thanks
/Henrik

Here's my take on your project: The fence looks great and the doors look great, but the torii looks stupid. Why not get rid of the torii and replace it with a graceful Japanese gate roof? That's what I'd do. Good luck!

Hmm I do like critics, but please elaborate on what you mean by "stupid"... If u mean I would make a sukiya-mon, then I think there is a problem with the space, you see the garage roof is about 5 cm from the right of the torii. I had plans to make sukiamon from the beginning, but then I had to revise my design :(

/Henrik

I agree that making a roofed gate would be the best idea. Honestly, seeing a torii with gates is strange and unnatural to me. At least in this part of Japan they never have gates or any kind of attachment, giving them a simple, pure look. PF

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Hiya!

Now I have assempled the doors, and they came out rather good. I used some bamboo for framing to make them a little rustic. Im still trying to determine what to do with the gate itself. But I think there is simply not enough room to fit a roof on it :( I will take some measurements and investigate further.

Btw, I have some pics in a book of japanese gardens that do show torii gates with doors... hmm. Perhaps they exist but are unnatural.

If u look into shintoism, it is considered bad luck to build a torii outside of japan... in for example a christian country.. hmmmm

/Henrik

Hiya!

Here is a pic of my completed door! I accept any suggestions and comemnts, good or bad! I think I should add some more details... but im not sure...

Perhaps it was better without the doors???

{{gwi:1008426}}

Please note, all you that think I should make it roofed, to the right there is about 5 cm of open space before teh gate hits the garage roof..

matane
Henrik

Henrik -

I like your gate, but I'd add a row of upright pieces at the top - as in the picture that I've just posted in the forum Gallery.

As for the potential gate roof being only a few centimetres from the garage roof, the only solution seems to move it to the left. That would involve a lot of work - digging out the posts that now support the Torii, & and re-positioning them somewhat to the left, modifying the fence, and re-laying some of the path too. I'd grit my teeth and do it......

Herb

Hi!! I will add some kind of decoration to the spaces on teh top and bottom areas of the doors..

About moving the posts... I really cant do that :( It took me forever to put this into place, along the path.

The only alternative as I see it is to make teh roof no wider than the torii is now, would that be out of place?

And I do have those 5-8 cm extra I can use...

/Henrik

Is your house a Shinto shrine? Are you a Shinto priest? That's why I think it looks stupid: because it is completely inappropriate. BTW, I think your fence and doors look great!

If you can't change to a graceful roof, the next best thing might be to have nothing at all there. Or, if you can't do without, a straight, sturdy crosspiece would be preferable to the foolish-looking torii. Good luck!

Now you convinced me... I will make that my next project! I will use Herbs photo as a base and proceed from there.

The only problem is to find appropriate roofing material!!!! HELP!

/Henrik

Henrik,

If you're going to go ahead and build a roof over your gate, these comments from an article in the JOJG may interest you -

"...... commonly-seen problems are gate posts that are too tall, and roofs that are ..... too small or too steeply pitched."

"........... Japanese garden gates look better with low, grounded profiles. It is critical to...(have)...adequate head clearance, but another important goal is to keep the overall gate height as low as possible."

"The roof's width is about 1.6 times the distance between the posts."

In light of this, I wonder if your gate roof could project under the eaves of your garage roof? This might mean that you needn't move the whole thing over to the left?

Herb

Henrik! I think that looks great now with the gates ! Doesn't look like you've sealed them yet though, I sure hope you plan to !

I also think it would look much better as a roofed gate instead of the torri. I think a torri would've looked great there but only if its' design and dimensions were correct .. doesn't offend me that your torri isn't outside a Shinto shrine either!

I'm going to send you some ideas and sketches as soon as I can get around to it, maybe by next week ! I emailed you for some additional dimensions.

We better work fast before the first snows hit !

Hi!

Thanks for all comments. Its nice to be able to discuss with people who know what they are talking about (as compared to all the people in my surroundings... who know jack about japanaese gardening hehe)

Anyway, Herb based on your earlier ideas about the proportions of the roof 20 x 8 cm (10/4), I made a quick design, and it will look good if I

1) Remove the top BIG beam
2) Remove the small vertical beam
3) Move the third beam (the one over the gates) and move it up so it together with the posts form an U up side down.

4) Then I will make 4 triangles (with one side missing) based on the proportions 10/4. Two on each side (left, right, in, out). They will support the roof beams. I will then start adding the roof-tiles, and finish with some copper metal on the very top of the roof (or whatever I can find.

Thats my very easy recipe of how to make a sukiya-mon. Joe, the design you have at www.woodsshop.com is fabolous, but perhaps a bit too difficult for a lousy carpenter like me to make from scratch :) But I like the design with the round poles as roof support beams!!

Kind regards
Henrik

Darned, cant edit posts.. well...

I noticed on the two designs at www.woodsshop.com and the nice gate made by coachsmyth, there is quite a difference on how the roof support is made.

1) The woodsshop design is using 4 beams that are in a 90 degree angle of the doors where the roof support poles rest.

2) coachsmyth is using two trangle supports on either side of the gate, attached with a few hotizontal beams.

These approaches are quite different I think, but I have no clue which is the most authentic. Both look good

/Henrik

Henrik, You've made a smart move to trade in your church steeple for a beautiful gate. I'm eager to see the results!

I agree with Herb that it might be possible
to fit your gate under the roof. If necessary, you
could go with a hipped roof which would almost
certainly fit there. I imagine that hipped roofs are
more difficult to construct, but you seem to have
much energy.

My use of 2 outside triangles was based on my limited carpentry skills and not a design feature. (Although it does support a good snow load) Id go with the woodshop design if you are able. Mine is rustic at best. I do agree with the majority- remove the Torii- lower the posts and put a roof over the gate. It would look more graceful and integrated

Cheers
Steve

Hiya guys!
The past days it has been very hot weather here in sweden, +32 was teh record yesterday... so I haven't been able to do much carpenting! Although I did finish the sukiya-mon during the evenings when it isn't so darned hot.

Im not yet finished with the design of the gates, no real lock, and limited ornaments. I did add some example based on something i liked at www.woodsshop.com Its up to Joe to tell if I can keep it or not, due to copyrights. I just added something, because I like that design and it kept me busy :)

Anyway, here are some pics;

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Please keep commenting it! It was a lot of fun to make!!

/Henrik

Wow, that was fast! Nice job too - much better carpentry than mine.

Herb

Right on Henrik
a huge improvement over the Torii! I echo Herbs comments, nice work!

very nice Henrik ! If you used my ideas at all I'm glad because that came out real nice !

Arigatou :)

There is still work to do, I need some kind of roof tiling, and I have to find a suitable lock. But yea, I also quite please with the way it turned out!! Much better than the torii, which belongs in Japan outside of a shinto shrine:)

now IM off to the beach!! And then I have three days more work ahead of me and then its 4 weeks of vacation!!! I will probably start another project... possibly adding paths, or adding a lantern (like i wrote about in my other backyard-thread)

see you

/Henrik

That looks great. Much better than the torii. Good job!

Henrik,

When you said you needed some sort of roof tiling, I wondered what I'd choose - but I still can't decide. I don't know what other people would pick.

But here are three different ideas.

Herb

Click here

Thanks for the lovely photoshopping! You never cease to amaze me! I think wooden tiles would be the best solution... Easy to work with, and less weight. I doubt my design without support could carry same tiles as the garage roof. And it wouldn't look "rustic"... at least not for a looong time.

/Henrik

You should use wood shakes Henrick, the way you've supported those cross beams (the ones coming off the posts), they won't carry much weight at all. You might want to re-think those connections before the snows hit.

Hi!

The beams are reinforced with metal "thingies" in an L shape, and mounted with 4 heavy screwes on each beam (4 in the post, and 4 in the beam itself. Im actually more worried that the wood itself will break, rather than the assembly :)

But thats just a feeling I got when I made it. When I get around to, I will make some stress testing by adding weight to the roof. Hopefully it wont all come down on me :(

I have visited three lumber yards today, none had any roof shakes :( Darned!!
I will also visit a locksmith, none of the 4 supermarkets i visted today had any suitable locks for the door! They are WAY too big for my small door :)

/Henrik

Okay, here is the finished sukiya-mon! As it can be viewed from the outside. On the left is my tsukubai composition. I REALLY wish I had a lantern of some sort here, because it gets really dark. There is no room to place a normal lantern among the plants in the tsukubai.. perhaps on the other side where I have a sad sun burned aucuba in a pot.

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see you later! I have another big project coming up soon!

/Henrik

Henrik,

Since you mentioned that you'd like a lantern on the right hand side, I tried photoshopping a big, ornate pedestal lantern there but I thought it looked incongruous.

However, on August 29 last year, Kelvin posted (in the Gallery) a picture of a lantern that he'd made. I wonder if something a bit like that would suit? I even wondered if might look O.K. without a pedestal, but attached instead to the fence & positioned so as to illuminate (or appear to illuminate) the steps?

I wonder what everybody else thinks?

Herb

Beautiful work, congratulations!
Dave

Looks great Henrik! PF

Henrik- Iposted a suggestion over in the Gallery

Cheers
Steve

Thanks for the comments! I will look into what possibilities there are to incorporate a lantern in that scene!

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I stealing this thread to post a pic of my pond. I have some doubts in where to place the lantern I am about to buy. I have also added stepping stones in the view, since it is a natural way to connect the pond with the garden. I will add these stones as soon as I can find them!!!

I have also removed some of the stones up front, and burried them more into the ground, and added grass all the way to the pond edge. I hope this will create a more pleasing view, since it is easy to get distracted with too much stones!

Perhaps there are other designs I havent thought about?

/henrik

Henrik - I've tried the lantern in several places, including on additional gravel 'beach', but somehow it doesn't (to me) seem to look quite right near your style of pond.

Yet the JOJG says that this style of lantern is usually used near water, so I'm mystified.

I also tried it near your new fence, by the steps next to the door, & it seemed a bit better, but still not quite right. Maybe it's just a matter of personal preference. I'm looking forward to seeing what other people think!

Herb

Ouch, well Im constantly redesigning the pond to create a more pleasing look.

However, I have read several books on japanese gardening and none of them give me any ideas on how to create pond suitable for a japanese garden. Only the basic things, like the classic "kokoro"-shaped pond, how to make waterfall etc... other than that I think I have followed the rules quite well... im still trying to get rid of the neckless stones... but they are not visible from the view at my pic! And I dont want to add more plants either... it will become too messy. Perhaps I got too many plants already? Or perhaps a misaki-gata is better?

/Henrik

Henrik -

Please don't think that I was being critical of your pond layout - I wasn't! I think, indeed that it's a great improvement on the original 'necklace' effect. I like the number of plants you have too.

On the question of a suitable lantern, I incline to think that one of the most important things is its size. I can't judge the relative sizes of your pond and lantern, so my cut & paste efforts at illustrating it may be entirely misleading.

However, here are some efforts - with relative sizes of pond & lantern that look (to me) to be reasonably suitable. Also, since you ask what a Misaki-gata would look like I've done a couple of pictures with that style too.

Herb

Click here

Lol, i love it when people critizise the things I make, how else can I make them better? Just look at the first "torii" gate I made... a japanese master would probably chop my head of with the katana for making such a thing... and look at the result after your harsh critics, it turned out much better with the true sukiya mon!!

As for the pond... To make a peninsula the pond had to be larger.. since it is quite deep all the way around. So thats not an option for the current pond ;) Perhaps i make another one. Then it will definetly have a peninsula!!!

Actually im already sketching for a new pond site in the upper left corner of my garden, here is an EARLY wip...

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perhaps next year or the year after that. Who knows ;)

Anyway, the yukimi is quite big...and I think the proportions on my earlier pic are correct. So perhaps it is a bit too big for the current pond.. hmm. I will think about it further. And when I get some new ideas, I better post a new thread...

thanks for teh design pics, and ideas!

/Henrik

Hi Henrick,

I would push the peninsula much further out into the pond. When viewing from various places one should not be able to see the entire shoreline of the pond, use severe reverse curves.

When placing rock around the shoreline do not begin at one end and work your way around. Rather, install key groupings and rocks leaving lots of space to be filled in later. Also place some rocks in front of others and some behind others. That greatly enhances the irregular shoreline feeling.

Especially with small backyard ponds try to raise the water level at least 20cm. above the surrounding grade, this eliminates the feeling of looking into a wet hole. Gerald

Some people wondered why I posted an item about carpentry last week. Well, take a look at this thread. It's easy to see that carpentry is as much a part of Japanese gardens as trees and rocks are.

Hi Henrik
I know that my postig is too late. I write anyway for your reffernce.

Origin of torii din't have any gate and never will in Japan.
Torii gate only happens in forign country.
Torii and gate/ mon in Japan are different things.

Meaning of Torii was "hen/rooster stand" tori means chiken in this case. Todays Japanese "tori" means bird(s). Chiken is domescated bird.Isn't it?
Last letter of Torii, "i" means stand, exsist, is, in Japanese. Torii was built originaly to protect chiken from predatory animals such as fox . [According Book of "Nipon jinjya ko" ] Today Shinto shrine use torii but never to mean to be gate as you think to close /open.

As Empror gained more power, Shinto shrine gained also it's power and size of shrine in the past.

What you have is "Mon" means gate in Japanese term and not torii.
I hope I din't disaponted you.^^
mike y

Hi Henrik
I found picture of Torii with gate. never say never ^^

I found a book about Koya san. Koyasan is mecca of Shingo sect Buddhist . Book is very old, pre war book . This is my first see torri has gate. Since million of Japansese tourists visit to Koyasan( Mt koya ), they must keep tourist out from shinto shrine. ( probably no one live there or have wacth man. that is why they put gate).

yama