David, Sorry I missed you- I was too busy watching Yamada san and the crew setting those HUGE stones ***mouth agape, small amount of drool forming at corner of mouth*** I had a chance to talk with some professionals and they too were in awe of how quickly a bunch of rocks could turn into something so symbolic and beautiful.

Spent some time offline talking with Bob Wise from your neck of the woods. Really nice guy. Also spent a little time talking with Masa Mizuno who is also from Portland. He holds pruning classes and it would be really easy to run down I-5 for some instruction.

There is/was a lot to distill from the conference. Most of the heavy hitters this side of the Pacific coupled with some serious knowledge from Japan can make your head spin. All were approachable and genuinely passionate. More to come when I come out of the clouds.

Jan took some pictures (I hope not the one with chicken in my teeth) that she most likely will share.

Immediately, my first take on the conference is a humble one. No one could agree what a Japanese Garden is. See, we are not all messed up here on good ole' Gardenweb ................ ;-)

I had to leave early today to get to work. And work I shall.... See ya.....

Michael

Hi Michael,David and all,

What a great week!!!!!!!! Just arrived home last night. The knowledge is still swirling in my head, and even being a non-professional, I was blown away by how helpful and wonderful everyone was. I spent an awful lot of time with the pine pruning group. I know I missed alot by doing that but I also gained valuable pruning knowledge. They had flown in three men from Japan and they were amazing. I kept picking up branches off the ground and pruning those. It would only take a minute and one of the experts were by my side helping me and explaining through interpreters what cuts to make and why. I will start a thread on pruning and hopefully share what I learned. And Michael was not kidding about the stone setting it was something to witness and the end result was magnificient!!!!!!! But one of the best parts of the trip was meeting you two and the others from garden web. Now I have faces and personalities to go with your posts! :) Nothing is better than sitting with friends and talking about what we were seeing and hearing.

Gotta run I start a new job this morning, but I will share more later.

Cheers Jando

Hi June;

Glad you arrived at home safely. The weather was cooperating and you were able to see the beauty of the NW without needing Gore-Tex.

Distilling the vast amount of information that was presented, I want to share with the group a lecture that I visited. Christian Tschumi gave us a presentation of the works of Mirei Shigemori, a landscape architect based in Kyoto mid-late 1900s. His designs were more contemporary and he oftened experimented with different geometric forms and areas of color (loosely paraphrased from Christian's abstract). One of his works incorporated geometric progressions and materials found in Feng Shui.

Shigemori-san also challenged the Sakuteiki, stating that it was written for gardens for the aristrocracy and has lost its relevancy for contemporary life. Shigemori-san began calling his versions of japanese gardens, "Shin-Sakuteiki", adding the Japanese word for "new".

Christian ended his abstract with the word "revolutionary" in describing Shigemori-san's works. It is a strong word, being how this symposium was to bring together the myriad of evolutions.

Now, being a humble gardener myself and not in trades as it is, I had a hard time trying to vision some of Shigemori-san's works in my backyard. His stuff is mind blowing, I am not sure I am ready for it though. In the vein of Karesansui but with serious lines and angles with lots of color. Think IKEA designers with access to stones and excavators. In that line of thinking, I googled Shigemori-san and asked my kids what they thought. They really liked his designs (they live at IKEA though).

Maybe I am a geezer at 38????

"It is what it is"-- Any thoughts from the group.....

Michael

Howdy All,

After a crazy final day which turned into a impulsive excursion to Nitobe in Vancouver, I have finally returned and am slowly assimilating all of the dialogue and experiences from the Symposium and garden tours. It was wonderful to meet so many friendly people from the Gardenweb community such as Jando, Gardenberry, Edzard, and Nachodaddy. David is such a great guy to drive all the way up from Portland to simply 'have lunch' with the GW friends. He did a great job translating so much of the pine pruning advice and also the stone placement theory which Jun Takeda was explaining.

I found the symposium presentations to be very educational and entertaining, touching on subjects as varied as the history of Japanese gardens abroad at early world expos, to garden restoration, to modern interpretations and the evolution of Japanese gardens. Some of them focused on the more esoteric and symbolic meanings while others were grounded in more in the practical applications. I found both perspectives to be complimentary to each other.

The round table discussions featuring an impressive panel of JG designers were very lively and tended to give a wide perspective of the subjects at hand. As Nachodaddy mentioned, the dodgey subject of "What is a Japanese garden" arose with answers as varied as "there is no such thing as a 'Japanese garden'" to "a JG is one that is inspired from the native landscape" to "a JG is a distilled and recreated environment in a controllable space".

The workshop day at Kubota gardens was a fantastic environment with little jewels of knowledge being presented at each of the demonstrations. There is nothing that compares to the firsthand experience of pruning lessons and boulder arrangement. The garden tours were exceptional, but of course, too brief. I could spend an entire day in Seattle Japanese garden alone.

Nachodaddy, unfortunately missed Christian Tschumi's Shigemore presentation, but it turned out to be the talk of the Symposium afterwards. I attended the other presentation by Tatsui-san which seemed to acknowledge the influence and integration of Western ideas, such as flowers and playful designs, as the direction of evolution which JGs are moving towards. My humble opinion is that the Western influence is closer to a contamination of Japanese gardens rather than an evolution of them.

I truly enjoyed meeting the beautifully diverse group of people so passionately moved by these interesting little gardens. I hope to see you all again in Tokyo in 2006.

-christian

Christian, Oh ohohohohoh tell us about your trip to BC. David

Now David, must you go there? ;)

On a whim, edzard and i drove up to Nitobe Gardens in Vancouver, BC. The garden was stunning. On the return, I discovered there are significant differences in the traffic laws between Canada and the US when we were nearly run overed by a city bus!!! It turned out to be just a scratch and everyone was ok, so now it makes for a pretty good story. Also learned that the US Customs officials dont consider a voter registration card to be a legitimate form of ID...hmmmm ...definately bring a passport or birth certificate unless you intend on staying in Canada indefinitely. ;) Made it back just in time to miss my flight, but caught another shortly afterward. You know what though...it was totally worth it.

-christian

chrisitan,
i didn't mean that stuff, tell what you thought about the garden.
:) david

After hearing about your thoughts on Nitobe, Id like to hear about the other gossip :-) Traffic accidents? Customs problems? and people think Japanese Gardeners are boring and pedantic?

Ooops! Sorry to unload that on you! ;)

Nitobe was immaculate and beautiful. There had been a little rainshower when we entered the garden, but shortly afterwards the sun came out and everything turned luminescent green. I enjoyed the layout and design of the garden which is considered to be representative of the cycle of life and the different paths we choose. The pine trees were masterfully pruned, and i just had to stand there and admire them for quite some time. There seem to be at least two distinct pruning styles on the different pines growing throughtout the garden. The nobedan paths beside the outer wall and inside the roji are beautifully crafted, and the stone arrangement beside the chashitsu, while a little disturbing, is at the same time stimulating. As has been discussed elsewhere, i feel that the pond edging could use a little more variety in stone shapes and sizes. Again, I could have spent the better part of a day at this garden. If you have the opportunity, I highly recommend visiting Nitobe.

-christian

{{gwi:1009246}}

Excellent photo. Great composition. any more? David

Oh, my! I'd really like to step in to that photo with no plans whatsoever for coming back out :) Thanks, Christian.
[Dare I say - maybe *that's* what a Japanese garden is all about?]

Someone thinks Japanese Gardeners are boring and pedantic???
(Now pay close attention: it'll only take me two or three hours to explain why that's not at all the case :)

- Evelyn

Thanks yall. Most of the photos I took were more of a documentary nature, with the above being an exception. This scene moved me, and now reflecting on it, the Nitobe garden moved me on many different levels, from the nobility of the enourmous Kasuga lantern, to the wildness of the waterfall, to the delicate arrangement of the tsukubai in the tea garden. Throughout, it is a beautifully orchestrated garden. Perhaps that is what many of us seek within a garden...to feel, to connect.

I have a few good photos from Seattle JG and a couple more from Nitobe that ill be happy to post in the gallery later this week. I also took many photos of pine trees which i can post as well if any are interested.

-christian

Christian I can't wait to see more of your photos. You sure can capture the essence of the moment in your photos. It was so great to share the symposium with you. Your insight for one so young is phenomenal. Sorry I didn't get a chance to say good-bye. Hope Edzard gave you that hug from me!!! ;)

You two must have had a grand adventure, wish I could have been there! Next year I plan to revisit the area and see more gardens. Now I know to stay out of the way of buses and have a passport and birth certificate. :))))

A question to all who attended. What moved you the most about the symposium? For me, other than the expierence of meeting all my GW friends I was taken with the eager sharing of knowledge and Masa who lead the pine pruning class along with the three pruners who flew in from Japan were perfect examples of this. They had infinate patience and helped me understand so much about pine pruning. The setting of the enterance boulders at Kabota Gardens was a work of art when finnished and came in a close second. It still amazes me it was done in a matter of a few hours. I did not have a camera that day so if anyone could e-mail me a photo of this I would be very grateful. I found it very interesting how they choreographed the work. It was really something to watch.

Cheers Jando

Sounds like you all had a good and valuable time. Is it possible for one of you that attended to present the symposium in a palatable way for those of us that didn't attend? For instance: how was the work of setting stones chorographed? This together with photos would be very useful and in the general spirit of sharing knowledge.

Inkognito..
this may not be exactly what you wished for, however Day 1 &2 of the Symposium is up on the Japanese garden database,..
back to putting out fires...
(isn't the brevity refreshing, :)) )
edzard

Here is a link that might be useful: Symposium minutes: Jpn Gdn Database: Day 1

Wow. That's a very comprehensive summary on Jgarden. Not as good as being there, of course, but it covers the essential discussion topics. Wish they could convey the pine pruning class that way too! ;)

Thanks edzard, it seems that all I missed was the hug.

Thanx Edzard for posting the link.

I missed seeing the closing panelists due to work commitments however seeing the short and concise input from Nakamura-san, I am again enlightened.

I have transposed his words to a single sheet of paper and will refer to it when ever I get stuck.

Whomever took the time to share this to the world, major props. Their notes are better than what I could come up with.

Michael

(( ))
would feel endlessly remiss to deny you the hug INKcognito...
and he of the lightning fingers is none other than Robert Cheetham from the Jgarden.org, ... Jpn Garden database.
Michael...
ONE sheet of paper?? hmmm, did you look up Day 2 on the Database??
or how small is that fine print?? How large is the paper?
ah,.. only Nakamura...
edzard

Hey Michael send me an email so I can send you a photo I know you will get a kick out of. And thanks for the welcome back. Sorry I missed it earlier and didn't give you a shout back. I am still playing catch up but it is quieting down. And I don't think you are geezer material yet!! :)))))))) Jando

June;

Check your email.

Michael

Michael,

Check your email. :))))))))))))))))

June;

Thank You. I will keep my eye out for Mondo grass for ya!!!!

Michael

Hats off to Robert Cheetham (and edzard by extension) for those notes; madde me wish I'd gone but now I know why...

This question is the one that stuck out at me...

"Questions: My name is Junji Shimada and I maintain the Nitobe Garden. I trained and studied in Japan, but we have limited resources and we cannot follow this tradition. So I have become a Pacific NW gardener and have no choice but to break the traditional rules and construct new pruning styles that are faster and works with our conditions. I think that this type of approach may be necessary when considering maintenance and authenticity."

The traditions are not questioned as right or wrong (as has happened TOO many times here), but as unapplicable! This is the question we should have been asking all along; can we fit this garden style into our lives? I have struggled to maintain some semblance of order and maintenance in my J-garden, often not happy with the condition (spring in the nursery industry leaves little time for anything other than sleeping, eating, and working. Gardening is an afterthought). So the two days that Val used to take to pinch all the shoots of of his maple (a traditional approach) is not available to me; how do I procede? Am I forced out of maples by my lack of time? Out of J-gardening?

It seems that much of the symposium was given to the same questions we ponder here; it makes me feel in good company (not that I was complaining about current company :p )

Scott