In case no one else adds to this let me say that I read it, downloaded it and am busy changing a couple of words for inclusion in an article I am writing for the JOSL. In French its called les plagiarisme, so merci.

Edzard;

You posed the question also on the other thread regarding an atmosphere and/or a secular vs. religious themes. My random thought's of what I would like to feel.

- Informal but not to the point of reckless abandon. Formal but not structured like a monestary or place of worship.

- Reminicant of places other than where it is located..costal, mountainous, tropical somewhere that takes you on a journey

- Practical for upkeep considerations but not at the expense of sterilizing for the sake of making things easier to take care of.

Well just ramblings as I try to think of atmosphere, if incoherant please disregard

Edzard, thanks for your excellent post! I hope everyone gives it much consideration - I will. I think it will help us achieve our vision more often.

Please do not send a bill.

dp

Apropos Edzard's recommendations in this thread, folk may be interested also in reading what he has to say elsewhere on the topic of how to go about the task of making a garden. (Incidentally, I can't help asking him if somebody else also had a hand in the text - the language of this other one has such a different style) -

Click here

chuckle,.. indeed the language is also mine.
Which do you prefer?
-- was there a question Herb? as you mention differences,

- the difference in the order pertains to the site, Bulgaria is much more humid than Arizona - already having an 'air/atmosphere', different latitude and moisture refraction that influences the site,
-the Arizona site is devoid of any outside sense, excepting the color of blue sky and the intensity of sunlight. The 'inside' is a blank slate. Materials are 'purchaseable, always new, available stone mostly quarried and 'fresh'...
- European clients and N. American think differently understanding automatically the patina of age, any stone or material they find is aged and rounded, economics are different
and --perhaps in error, the client and gardener position have not been separated, which, as mentioned, I have slightly different expectations of 'process' for some individuals participating in specific Japanese arts.. different approachs reach different people, or not, one can only try.
(-not to mention that I am told Catholicism has three knowledges, how many levels are there to garden knowledge? more than three, I suspect...)

and good friend, you respond predictably when I 'seem to grouse' at other people, which in this case, successfully facilitates his needs and your enjoyments, skills...
edzard

Edzard,

This is most curious - was no proof reader involved? If you are indeed capable, on your own, of writing as lucidly as the posting in the other forum, I'm sure it would be appreciated here.

Among various other matters that deserve further discussion, let's begin with this.

You wrote -

"An often overlooked objective of the garden is to design to achieve fuzei or the 'air of fuzei'.

The first question to a client is to determine what air, or what atmoshpere the garden should feel. that one factor in a design is to achieve an 'air or atmosphere' of 'fuzei'."

You listed various possibilities for this 'air or atmosphere' - airs of tranquility, mountain, comfort, vastness, tension, modernistic fluidity, sleekness, commerce, efficiency, mystery, healing, dry desert, nature's richness, health and nature, etc. You go on to say that the 'air or atmosphere' decided on determines, inter alia, what stones are selected. It would be very useful, Edzard if you would be more specific. What sorts of stones are suited to these various 'airs'? Can you give us examples, in relation to, say, an air of efficiency, or an air of modernistic fluidity?

Indeed would you also please explain what - in a garden - 'modernistic fluidity' is. Many people are, I feel sure, eager to know.

None of these is mentioned in the other forum, though. You say that Bulgaria already has it's own 'air or atmosphere'. In this forum on the other hand you also say that the first task of a designer should be to select an 'air or atmosphere' that he wants to achieve. Isn't there a contradiction here?

You say that Bulgaria is different from Arizona - which we all understand - the terrain and climate are obviously different - but what exactly is 'moisture refraction' and exactly what differences to garden design result from it? (To me, 'moisture refraction' is something to be thought of when explaining the formation of rainbows & I doubt that phenomenon has any substantial relevance to garden design).

There are quite a lot of other things I'd like to discuss, but one that particularly intrigues me is your idea that in designing a garden, it is necessary to ask - "What is being taught to the children?" Do you usually ask this question of your clients? Please, Edzard give us some actual, concrete examples of how this should influence Erik's - or anybody else's - garden design.

Herb

Herb, thank you for asking a question, let me get my spoon...
-An air of efficiency,
The Maebashi City Governmental Office,
Page 54-55, The Indoor Garden, Haruzo Ohashi
-modernistic fluidity,
National Research institute for Metals,
Tsukuba, Ibaraki,
Work of Shunmyo Masuno
(if you have the copy, Process : Architecture, Special Issue 7, Landscapes in the Spirit of Zen, A Collection of the Work of Shunmyo Masuno)
-from the same work, look at the Takamatsu Crematory, wherein the stones of one garden (Kuhon Mandala) are set or "developed with an aim of producing areas with a degree of dignity and in a spirit totally in keeping with a place where the bereaved make their last farewells." and the Nirvana garden "the state of enlightened calm and tranquility of the "void" was expressed by using maples, Stewartia pseudo-camellia and flowers. At a more practical level, land at the perimeter of the site was built up and planted so as to heighten the sense of privacy,"... Shunmyo masuno, Editor-in-Charge)

-the Canadian Embassy, "a modern symbolic landscape"
-page 25, "The Canada garden expressive of a sense of grandeur and a Japanese garden expressive of a sense of delicacy and detail, the significance of each garden made as obvious as possible, "
-page 28, the theme (fuzei) for this garden is "communication", "tense atmosphere created amid the delicacy and detailing being a special feature here."
-in the basement, the garden in front of the Cityclub of Tokyo, is "spouting energy",

I am sure you will be able to find the appropriate links...

Moisture refraction? - refraction of light caused by moisture, please read Tadahiko Higuchi, The Visual and Spatial Structure of Landscape
-tell me Herb, do your eyes dilate when they enter a shady area? Do they also dilate when you view something/one you love? Perhaps children?

Rainbows do have an effect on the mind, and are incorporated when they are an often occurring phenomenon... Perhaps read 'A theory of /Cloud/', Hubert Damisch.
The author's perception is that linear perspective cannot encompass all of visual experience...etc.

Cloud provides us subconscious information about where we are, when we are, what season, the lack of it often disturbing people, and as such provides comfort.. To which end maples are often pruned as 'cloud' to approximate the setting sun reflection, which when refracted in Japan's moist atmospheric conditions amounts to light refracting as red, yet seeming moist... An atmosphere.
Arizona may have red, yet not moist red. And not one that dilates the pupils, rather contraction would be the norm. To focus on a stone grouping barren of green, would be stark, and cause the eyes to contract because of the light refraction on the object.
Rainbow also exists over waterfalls, which is often depicted by a plant with fine leaves that turns red in the fall, and as it turns the colors toward red, combined with arcing, approximate a rainbow... Which is also a koi/dragon jumping...(Nitobe, the pruning work of Junji Shinada)

I would ask what does not have relevance in the Japanese garden...?

What does the garden teach to the children? Why do children go on field trips? Is it safe in that area? Would also be another way of phrasing the question.
Memory is three generations derived, and the garden is often one which is set from childhood memory, which is one of the happiest and simplist times of existence.. Children are important, and what we pass on as memory.

And - Aikido is a newer discipline which is however founded to some extent as an inherent part of the culture of Japan, the people, as based in Dao-ist belief. I would suggest reading Gardens of the Virtuous, -as the underlying principle of the Japanese garden is that it is a place of learning, whether cycles of nature, spring winter, or whether the mantis eats the insect.. This movement is also based in aikido.

Therefore it is important to know if it is perceived as a 'learning garden' or as a stereotypical -templated version of a personal 'view' of Japan... Which by the way, is also a valid garden design, imo.

--your 'contradiction' was already addressed, " and --perhaps in error, the client and gardener position have not been separated, which, as mentioned, I have slightly different expectations of 'process' for some individuals participating in specific Japanese arts.. different approachs reach different people, or not, one can only try."

Which sequences nicely into wondering why I am spoon-feeding,...
Rather than to doubt something I write, why not ask yourself how it applies and seek an example of how it might happen that way. Why not work 'with' something in the same way as there are normally more ways than one, to achieve an objective.
After all,.. who is building, developing and restoring heritage Japanese gardens and who is not, in this delightful exchange of thought?

edzard

Last year my beloved little preschool-aged relatives visited my Japanese garden. When they stepped off the path into the mossy area my first instinct (luckily resisted) was to reprimand them and explain the rules of visiting a Japanese garden. Fortunately I realized in the moment how important this first experience of a Japanese garden could be to them, and instead I enjoyed watching them explore it, picking and eating blueberries, touching the cool moss, crawling into the tent-like recesses under the trees. Bad weather and marauding deer (not to mention our cats) do far more damage than my young, honored visitors. I'm sure I would have stepped in had they started uprooting moss by the handful, but I found it interesting that left to their own devices they treated the garden very gently and respectfully.

Lee

Edzard -

If you want to imagine that people need to be spoon-fed then imagine on.

You would do better to grasp the fact that others have no wish to be treated as ducks or geese to be force-fed an unwholesome diet.

Best regards,

Herb

Edzard;

This is epic!!! You distill the very essence of garden design in the Japanese Way. Unfortunately some folks cannot handle 200 proof, preferring their libations prepackaged and watered down.

Your explanations are Slawson-esque and your finished products are spot on. You got the chops, man, bottom line.

Write a book , I will buy it. Better yet, get with Mike and give him half. It will be a big book. I'll buy two.

You do great honor to those that have past before you and you give great inspiration to those who are fortunate enough to have an open enough mind to let new (old) things sink in.

Enough, I know well enough that such knowledge you possess is not easily gleaned nor shared. I Thank You for your contribution.

Kampai to "Fuzei Living"

Michael

Michael;

If I enjoy listening to Mozart should I strive to become a composer?

If I admire certain aspects of the Japanese culture should I practice Buddhism or Shinto?

If you only knew how to put gas in your car and could not tear it apart and rebuild it are you a watered down motorist?

I very much appreciate the effort Edzard put's in his post's. I honestly understand 25% of what he is saying and I probably never will because quite frankly i will never be as dedicated to this endevor as he is; does that make me unworthy of having a Japanese garden? If we all took an elitist attitude about things I find it quite possible that Mr.Shunmyo Masuno might think no one here is worthy to even speak on this subject.

I had the great pleasure of training once with a man who was O'Sensi uchi deshi for over 20 year, and the keeper of the Aikido shrine in Iwama. One day he demostrated to us a technique that left all of us stary eyed. When he saw the looks on our faces he laughed and said not to worry as he had trained, lived and dedicated his life to O'Sensei yet still "didn't get everything". "Take what you can from it, embrace it and pass it on". Now here is someone that spent his entire life striving for a level he never attained, (he passed on several years ago)should I not enjoy the training because in the world we live today allows only several hours a week? Should I drop all of my responsibilities as it is the only way for me to be a worthy aikidota?

Be wary of patriarchal talk, it should be saved for those private rooms where the elitist speak in hushed tones so that the plebians shall not hear what we say. Be careful also what questions you ask to your mechanic or doctor or somone who specializes in a craft that you are not a master of, you might not like what they say about you.

Mr. Patriot;

You misunderstand me. Nothing "elitist" in my response to Edzard. I have seen his work, met him personally, I like his style (both in the field and on this message board).

No one is "unworthy" with regard to having a Japanese Garden. Just throw $130K in any landscaper's direction and you will get a reasonable facsimile of one. But yes, you would like to do it yourself you say. What if you walked into a random dojo right off the street and asked O'sensei (who you have never met) to teach you at the Sho Dan level. Is he really gonna care how many books you have read on the subject? You think he is gonna suit you up and hand you a black belt? Are all the other students gonna bow to you when they walk in? You gonna call everyone there an elitist for not accomodating you?

Is is good you have a martial arts background cuz in the real unplugged world that is just how the good Japanese Gardening knowledge gets passed down. You start low, get your butt kicked a few times, and maybe just maybe if you have shown dedication and humility, you get to watch someone prune the pine instead of raking the leaves.

Anyone can plant a tree and put a rock next to it. Knowing why the tree is there and how it interacts with the stone 24/7 is a whole nuther step.

Are you interested in the end result or the path? Edzard describes a way down the path, one in which I endorse as it requires one to think before acting. You don't have to rent the backhoe twice that way. You want to ignore the path?? Then I recommend plastic bamboo, concrete lanterns, and a shishi odishi or two. Throw a couple of koi in there for good measure. Kitaro gently wafting in the background, stuff like that. Tiki bars are the rage I hear. Saw something like that at Costco the other day.

No I am not in the trades, nor even close to being a "master". Been around this a while though, it sure tastes a lot better when you know you what the heck you are doing. I did not wake up one day and say to myself "I think I will turn the side of the house into a Japanese Garden" and try to crank it out in a weekend. I have been working on my garden for over 20 years. In the rain, in my head, on paper, on this message board. I will let you in on a little secret: it is not even close to being done and I hope it never gets done.

Good luck with your project, nice corroborative effort, lotsa pretty doctored pictures flying around, but when it is done and over what what did you bring to the party? Can you really call it "yours"?

There is nothing "elitist" by asking someone to think for themselves. Brew yourself up a nice pot of O-cha and sit out there in the cool 98 degree night and close your eyes and just think. If you empty your mind I guarantee that whatever you come up with will be much better than what someone else came up with for you. And surprisingly, the tea will taste a lot better.

You like cars huh? Restoring a 1969 Mustang. 71K original miles. Just got the shop manuals today. Been sitting in the garage for over two years before I decided what I wanted to do with it. I sit in that car, I am 16 again. I get a lot of pressure to turn it into a hot rod. Gonna keep it as original as I can. That is what the car told me. In my world, it would be totally irresponsible not to listen to what the car wants. I work that way in the garden too..........

I have nothing more to say in this matter. Again, good luck, I wish you the best.......

Michael

chuckling but saddened, not the direction this was to go in,..
Herb for a rare once, the spoon was for you as I tire of the eternal sarcasm since I've mentioned these books before and some of the ways of possibly looking at garden for a long time.
If someone else not having heard of these books, would have asked, then the spoon would have been left in the drawer. You however are very well versed in the Japanese garden and know better, excepting I suppose that lately you prefer the 'concrete' 'practicality' of the short answer. The fish instead of the rod. And you've spent ample time in the Orient, therefore fondly, I offered to spoonfeed you through a process again, which I think, in someways is an improved methodology of conceptualizing the beginnings of design.

--and as you kindly draw attention to my older posts on other forums, I'm thankful as it shows me that I have grown not only in delivery, but in formation of the garden... and hopefully I will always continue learning.

I've concluded, that with elitism, which does not exist here since I am a fulltime gardener for some decades, and gardeners get what I say, yet, that lay people only get 25% of what I say, it is 25% more than they had before.
That is still a good thing.
Often, if not always, what was said to me, and still is, does not have relevance until later. I think I 'get' about 15% of what the more experienced gardeners say and the rest sinks in years later as examples of those cirrcumstances arise.
Other occupational languages, I just do not get. Since I do not live and breathe them, I don't expect to get them, until they become important to me, enough that I am paying attention. And I certainly avoid telling my benefactors that they are elitist because they use a different language, or as in the case of JoJG, often invent a new language, which seems to satisfy those that want words they can understand rather than the words that are already used... -old conversation this one. But if you really want to be addressed as a 7 year old, be my guest, I could use words like 'bad', 'bullseye', 'fist', instead of words that are already in the trade language.
yet I have to ask all of you... if someone invents a new word for something in _your_ industry,, what do you think of that person and the word they've invented for this?
Are we each elitist then in our own occupations??? I don't think so, I think we just know (some of) our stuff. Would you expect a brain surgeon to use non-descriptive langauge when speaking amongst other surgeons?
I prefer to think I am speaking to gardeners. If a word is not understood, they can ask, but please, be genuine, for a genuine answer. Try to imagine the words, post a scenario, allow it to be refined and tweaked.

Erik,..
the more formal it will be the more it will cost. (your posts on your wall are a good thing,) they tell you the scale of stone to use while providing a height at which to attach the angle iron brackets -up side down, that you purchased from Home Depot, 1000lb. 11 x 18" ones installed 2' o/c with lags, which also have chicken wire attached stretched to the bottom, 1/2" away from the wall for stucco base, which is used for the mud fill. Just have a dye put in the mud. No paint, less maintenance.
2"x2" wood is through bolted to the angle irons making a roof like shape and sticks out to 32" minimum past the wall.
- a facsia of stone installed at 2.5' off the ground, to 1.5' off the ground-- so that you can add 2' of soil to the area for forshortening the view, etc.

Ideally add 2 wooden posts between the cement columns so that the stone to be used is from .314 to .618 of the original length between posts... small, distant view, large close view garden.

-Think of the best places, 3 you liked, Moutain, village, and ocean, which is closest to you.
-water feature is a basin, wood or stone, with hollowed branch piping, overflowing into 'short' stream splash area for coolness,.. dry waterfall at furthest point away, as viewed from window, unless, you wish to encourage people to sit outside then only show a partial view so they are encouraged to be outside to see the whole view.

-use three sizes of gravel, one closest small, going larger the further toward the coastline of the land mass, 'breakers at shoreline', which has the coastal village and the mountain behind. Make it walkable.
Type of garden predates Niwa,teien, and is known as 'shima' = island paradise, Japan viewed over the gunwales of ship.

I'm sure Herb will find photo's URL's, and some of a posted dobei wall.

I hope this is enough for you, planting plans are needed when you decide on the stone, wall color, texture and tile or wood roof. Then decide the divider fence type, - how personal the pattern should be, etc.
-and for me prepping for airport, VJGA Sumi Awards, tour and the Nitobe beckon, -Herb, I could always come visit..., :), I'll bring a spoon for each of us. Silver or chromium?
edzard
Inky-michael, dozo, dozo yoroshiku, DAG-masu

As always I have been absorbed by the input of some participants, particularly on this thread but much of the content I do not understand. As I recently said to a friend who contributes to the forum, one of the posters here is obviously a highly intelligent and knowledgable man. Mr Nachodaddy can vouch for this as he says. I thought the issue of the usefullness, or otherwise, of using a paragraph to write a sentence had been cleared up here sometime ago. There are many things written here I agree with, a similar amount that I dont and frustratingly an increasing quantity that I dont understand(once more)
How can anybody claim to be "bulding, developing and restoring heritage Japanese gardens" When does a garden become a heritage garden is a question that puzzles me and who declares that garden to be of heritage status.

Graham

Is this not merely contentious Graham? Or should you speak more clearly?
There are, evidently, two distinct ways of looking at and enjoying Japanese gardens, one is purely visceral and the other has some intellectual/spiritual content neither is right to exclude the other. Perhaps it would be in the spirit of the tranquility that we seem to be agreed upon as a result of this way of doing things to be more tolerant.
It is certainly weird that regaled with the freely given contribution from edzard that he is only asking you to consider, even offering sources for further study that you pick up on this heritage thing.
Tell us Graham, in the same spirit what does heritage mean to you.

Graham,
I work in numerous gardens across Canada etc., and continue to work for someone with more experience as often as I possibly can. This way I learn a lot more and it keeps me humble. Their favourite problem with me, is that I do not have an open enough imagination, needing finite things to bite into.
Therefore I find it hard to grasp that people do not understand me, when they lack imagination.

one of the gardens: the site and garden were declared a National Heritage Site by the Canadian Government, and Province of British Columbia. It is the last original Internment Camp still standing, with original tar shack buildings in Canada.
The garden is the last garden built by my first real influence in Japanese gardens, ('73) Roy Sumi, who was instrumental in building the Nitobe Memorial Garden. His place of Internment was Rosebery, just north of New Denver, where the garden is.
As it was his last garden, it was never finished, which by recommendation of the Vancouver Japanese Gardeners Association, has fallen to me. My task is restoration of what was built having fallen to disrepair, building to finish his thoughts and develop the needed changes due to municipal development, mismanagement and 'modern' Japanese intervention.

The garden is called Heiwa Teien, built in the taste of the Kamakura Period, and as a parable uses the motif of 'Methods of Forest Harvesting', built in 3 gardens, the Past, the Present, and the Future. Its sense is the stoicism of the Japanese, woodblock print, The Wave.

The Sumi Awards are dedicated to Roy Sumi, held once a year, and are opportunities to showcase gardens with the objectives to provide insight from invited judges on the quality of the garden and gain the benefits of hearing methods of improvement or direction, or simply to find out how it stands up against the panel of judges.
There are 2 categories, Built and Maintenance. Some entered gardens have been around for 2 generations and are just now coming to entry in the Award. Entries are often by gardeners such as Mikasa san, -the Jpn. Consulates gardener, or even Kobolds (Andrea from this Forum) gardener, Kamoshita san.
I hope the Canadian Governments decision of declaring a Heritage Site meets with the approval of international peoples.

- the poorness, the disrepair and mis-direction of the Heiwa Teien may be viewed on Jgarden.org... to which, a previous visiting gardener from Japan bonsaied everything in sight, insisting it 'was the way things are done now', with no regard to the thought processes begun by Roy Sumi.

frankly... it is a h..l of a lot of hard work, physically and emotionally, banging ones head against the misrepresentations of what Japanese gardens are, compared to being, just a beautiful place, in this case with a statement about the sought after world peace in hopes of avoiding further shortsighted internments of naturalized peoples.
any other anomalies I should be thumbscrewed/cross-examined for?
edzard

It is no wonder very few professionals are willing to contribute to this forum. Is this really how we wish to interact with each other?

Edzard, I sincerely appreciate the contribution you make to this forum and the knowledge you are so forthcoming with. I enjoy reading (and then re-reading) your posts, many of which have become more pertinent as time passes. It can be difficult to describe in words the design process which results in the conception of a garden. It is like asking an artist how to make good art. There is more to it than the action of making brush strokes, the action of throwing clay, or the action of arranging plants and stone. There are many layers to the process, and i think that gardens are especially suited to tell a story, reveal a relationship, or teach a lesson. We should remember to utilize this aspect of the garden through smart and insightful design.

Perhaps another way of understanding it would be to liken the garden to a human being: the garden's skeleton is the space where it exists, the skin is its aesthetical beauty, and the soul of the garden is the intent of its design.

-christian m.

Edzard,

Thumbscrews? There are undoubtedly some people who merit them - & the real thing too - but they don't include you Edzard.

Listen, nobody doubts the depth of your learning, experience & expertise. But those with much less - and certainly beginners looking for help - are not encouraged when they read help or advice that goes so far over their heads as to be (to them) meaningless. Fuzei elegantly encapsulates a wide range of Japanese concepts. But when a beginner is given the impression that Fuzei requires his garden to have 'air or atmosphere' - of which there are doubtless an almost infinite number of kinds, and when he reads a list that includes things like 'modernistic fluidity' - then, no matter that you grasp what it implies, he, on the other hand sees Fuzei as an idea festooned with bells and whistles that are of no help to him at all. He may, quite understandably, even conclude that 'air or atmosphere' - or at any rate a good deal of it - is simply hot air. Or, that his leg is being pulled.

Similarly, if he's told that his site must be 'listened to' a great many people haven't the faintest idea what it means. So what do they do - stand a tape recorder in the yard all night & then play it back?

And another thing: when a poster of undoubted standing and distinction declares that another poster "doesn't listen to good advice" and that he "wasted a lot of peoples time and effort, their kindness in considering the hours of design considerations, preparing of vignettes and photoshop pictures... only to do what he wanted in the first place..." - what sort of message does that give, especially when the accusation is not true as is demonstrated by the fact that Henrik in fact did follow a suggestion by replacing his Torii arch with a roofed gate?

If you do show up, please make sure the spoons have long handles.

best regards,

Herb

Forum,

what troubled me about Edzards earlier post was exactly the issues that Herb has just raised here "does,nt listen to good advice" "wasted a lot of peoples time and effort" "only to do what he wanted" etc. It then troubled me further that as Herb had questioned Edzards attitude to other posters he was apparently 'swatted' with the statement of "After all who is building, developing and restoring heritage Japanese gardens and who is not"
To make such a condescending statement surely the content should be accurate ie heritage ? As Edzard and others know my work involves the restoration and development of heritage Japanese gardens, I also build gardens which one day will hopefully become heritage to my children or others though I do not feel the need to raise this to add weight to my opinions or give them validity over anothers. I am sure the same 'heritage' will be hoped for of the garden projects in Sweden and Arizona.
As you may have gleaned from my earlier post the person I referred to as being highly intelligent and knowledgable is undoubtedly Edzard so why use the terms in your put down to Herb which in effect are not true but merely exagerating your standing ( which is not necessary by the way)which is why I "picked up on this heritage thing" There is only one meaning to the word heritage.
I am in total agreement with Inkognito's suggestion that there are two ways, one purely visceral, the other intellectual/spiritual etc and that neither is right to exclude the other. I do not feel the need to exclude any one or thing because of their understanding but it seems that Edzard is happy to exclude the thoughts and ideas of those who are not in agreement with his own or on his own intellectual plane.
Inkognito, I do not feel this is merely contentious and do not see how I could speak more clearly.

Graham

I would suggest that, as with any conversation or exchange, just enjoy the parts you think are useful to you at this time, and don't worry too much about the others. To try to bring this back to the original purpose of the post:

Think of Fuzei as simply Feng Shui. I think anyone who is contemplating a garden, or for that matter, any project would be able to apply these concepts on some level. No need for the beginner to go too in depth, just give the spirit of the project a lot of consideration before beginning. It can always grow later if you have given it your best beginning. Who's garden has not?

Herb and Graham,..
actually I was proposing 2 streams of design that would join, afterall, if people can come here and ask for a tranquil feel to their garden, or a garden based on serenity, then surely they can comprehend what an 'air or an atmosphere' is, as Martha Stewart has been doing atmosphere in her magazines since inception.
By asking for concrete descriptions, this causes a finite predetermined definition to arise, removing peoples choices, which I was avoiding by leaving it open to their definitions... of which modern has different meanings for different age groups of people, as does fluidity, therefore as it is open to their definitions, it is their criteria, not mine. Fluidity also translates differently in terms on stone or steel,.. ie: Shigemori Mirei...

what I ponder is how Herb ends up being the spokes person for the masses?? Have they no voice?

For the rest, Herb finally got my back to the wall with his eternal sarcasm and for clarification, rather than condescension, I pointed out to those who may not be familiar to the board that I work in the trade and Herb does not, therefore it clarifies that methods may differ and simultaneously that Herb should have a more open mind, leaving some of the questioning to others, or to contribute to a thread, rather than to call it into question of even existing.

obviously there are no questions about fuzei??
then I think this thread is about done, with much the same results as most previous threads that turn in this direction.

I have read this thread with a sinking heart. It has been a while since I have even haunted the forum, and it is the cantakerous nature of some postings that has put me off it. I left here most reluctantly in the first place, as the knowledge I gleaned (I like to think more than 25%, but I'm probably flattering myself) was of such great value to me. Edzard and Mike are wellsprings of knowledge on the subject, and the fact that they would deign to spend not just time, but effort and thought, on educating others on the topic speaks volumes to their commitment to the art. That some others would denigrate them for the very act speaks volumes to the baser instincts of man.

I am puzzled by the need to educate the masses on this subject. Traditionally that has never been anyones intent (quite the opposite), and the masses seem happy with a shishi odoki and a concrete laughing Buddha. To dumb it all down for the benefit of those who really don't WANT to be educated smacks of those singing lessons for pigs my granny used to warn me about. I guess that many who don't understand are some how angered by anything that escapes them. I don't get that myself. There doesn't seem to be any argument or even any real comment on what Edzard has said, only griping that he said it at all. For a forum on Japanese gardens, and a thread on the spirit and intent thereof, this one lacks the fuzei of both. Guess I'll try again in a few months...

As always, Edzard, domo arigato for the lesson. I welcome any stray thoughts you may have on the subject...

Scott

Edzard;

Now that all the grenades have gone off and you are still alive, I will ponder you a question that I get jammed up with on occasion.

Let' start with my Mustang. It took two years for me to figure out what I wanted to do with it. Basically the choices were either to keep it original or turn it into a hot rod. It eventually told me what it wanted (no tape recorders here, simply keeping my ears open) and now I have a path to go down. But what if it told me it wanted to be a bus???? More philosophical but do you get that on occasion?

I have a flat piece of ground, no topography to speak of that I WANT to place a waterfall in (the sound being an additional sensory input) The ground says keep me flat, I want to build it up. I can see it from all sides but there are two sides that will primarily be seen (the sides closest to the house). Nothing for 50 yards around that I can borrow views from vertically Now...... this is where it gets fun.

I don't want Krakatoa East of Java. If I go for height, then it is a lot of dumptrucks to gradually gets this to blend in. If I want sound only, then I can flatten the waterfall out vertically so it is more like a stream. For it to be of any function, it needs to be a little longer. I know, more dumptrucks, but I am cool with that.

The stream/waterfall feature will eventually feed into a Koi pond. I will have a viewing platform built over the pond so I ideally want the feature to flow behind the platform left to right or vice versa. Stereo and I can mess with the acoustics with rock placement, water flow, and a suikinkutsu or three.

Now, and I left it to the end on purpose, the fuzei I want is of tranquility. Chill on my platform on a cushion, sipping on some tea, feeding the fish on occasion. When I am having one of those days, I want the knowledge that I can refer to this area mentally and be balanced immediately. More than just "happy thoughts", again balance.

Shakkei is 30 year old Doug fir forest complete with all the natives that come with it. House is 100 feet away and will be part of the view while sitting if eyes elevate 20 degrees above horizontal. Don't want the house to be part of the view. Thought of elevating platform to force my eyes down towards the koi. Between platform and house is stroll garden, partially finished, that will also keep the eyes down.

The REAL question is: did I achieve fuzei or is there anything else I need to ponder??? I tend to overthink things so how do YOU know when fuzei is satisfied and it is time to order the fill dirt and stones?

Michael

Michael: "I don't want Krakatoa East of Java" was the best line I've read in along time...nice analogy, had me rolling for 10 minutes

Erik

Erik;

I do have some strange things that flow through my head as well as some pretty off the wall analogies.... I crack myself up, everything else is gravy. Glad you could appreciate it......

For those that did not get it, I did not want a tropical volcano looking thing jutting from my woodland environment.

Michael

" That some others would denigrate them for the very act speaks volumes to the baser instincts of man."

That sort of spin misses the entire point and can only result from wearing blinkers.

What needs to be grasped is that expertise should not be used as a licence to condescend and insult.

Herb;

You remind me of the old man who insists on travelling in the left hand lane at the speed limit. Insisting he is right and everyone else is wrong. There are two sides to that argument but in the end you are still in a lot of people's way..........

Let's stay on task here. I have a question on the floor that suprisingly, has something to do with the topic at hand and I ask it without the stink of your passive agression and sarcasm. Most folks are waiting for an answer, not to hear your broken record. Go start another "here are some pretty pictures" posting.

Michael

Well, Michael -

If you want to experience your hoped-for Fuzei, it would be a good start to calm yourself & avoid following Edzard's example of descending to personal insults.

As for how you (or any other gardener) can know that he's achieved it, I should have thought that only the gardener himself can possibly know it. The mere act of asking somebody else's opinion surely indicates that he hasn't achieved it?

On the other hand, if the gardener feels that he has achieved his desired for Fuzei - and others whose opinions he respects tell him that the garden gives them the same sense - then he can be reasonably confident about it, would you not think?.

Herb

Edzard,

you mentioned the Takamatsu Crematory, ""wherein the stones of one garden (Kuhon Mandala) are set or "developed with an aim of producing areas with a degree of dignity and in a spirit totally in keeping with a place where the bereaved make their last farewells.""

Another wonderful example of this is Hofu City Crematory.

I've linked a photo, more can be seen in
"Zen Gardens-The World of Landscapes by Shunmyo Masuno".
It was published a couple of years ago in Japanese, hopfully it'll be published in English by next year.

I think it is very difficult to try and teach Fuzei (atmosphere), or any other Japanese spiritual understanding and approach to the arts by explanation. In general teaching the Japanese arts to a student who is looking for answers rather than repetative experience and a deep understanding will only prove to be hollow.

I've seen in the teaching of Tea where the student wants much information and explanation for all the details so that they can move through the ranks. Although one will become profichent preforming the act of tea, a true understanding and sense of humbleness and desire to to trigger pure pleasure in others will not be achieved.

btw Edzard, I much prefer your writing when I can read and understand what you're saying. Keep up the editing.

Gerald

Here is a link that might be useful: garden touching the senses

Thanks Gerald- those pictures do a lovely job of illustrating your points. This forum is very important in my own evolution as a gardener (as slow as that evolution may be). From someone who admired Jp gardens from afar to someone who actually attempted to build one, I have learned equally from Herb and Edzard (as well as many others)and appreciated both as influences in my own learning process. I will also profess to understanding 25% of what Edzard says but this does not mean I need Herb (or anyone else) to speak for me. There is an old saw about it better to remain silent and be thought a fool or opening your mouth and removing all doubt that I wish to invoke here.
Nachodaddy asked a good question and I'd like to see how this will be answered by all the people whos opinions I respect. I have a similar question running around in my head and that is, if I design my garden to make me happy and NO ONE ELSE, does that make
a) my garden "correct"? (whatever that means)and
b) my garden a success as an excercize if I am satisfied with the results?

While I have no laughing buddhas or plastic bamboo, I do have a functioning sishi-odoshi which I derive a great deal of pleasure. I sit in my garden in my handbuilt "teahouse" structure and achieve a lot of relaxation and pleasure from my waterfall and pond, which is what I wanted when I began. Have I therefore achieved "Fuzei Living" in my garden? or am I still striving towards some unseen nirvana which will stike me suddenly as the last stone is twisted into place?
If so, can we please stop arguing? and go on sharing ideas and helping others
Arigato

coachsmyth, I see two people I thought were friends insulting each other, and others joining in. I appreciated reading Edzard's offered advice, but do not expect others to if they do not want to. Just leave it alone. Surely no one is benefiting or enjoying this public duel.

Now for Japanese Gardening: my father built his own gardens and they were his paradise. They followed no rules - not even horticulture. He loved them, they gave him happiness, exercise, sunshine, and (for the most part) kept him out of trouble.

I took pleasure in his enjoyment and found nuances that I liked as well. He loved to talk about his garden and responded happily to suggestions. Therefore, his garden was dynamic - never finished. Coachsmyth, enjoy your garden!

dp

Hi Herb, I'm new, but I've been hanging around for some time. I always like your "Here are some pretty pictures" posts and I'm glad that you participate in this forum. You tend to add some sense and moderation to each discussion, and that's very helpful.

chuckling,.. Michael, lately I seem to get the bus situation on a regular basis, with no regard for actually being a car. I'm sure that here in Alberta that is where the truck limo came from.

answering the REAL question: no you have not achieved fuzei. Fuzei is in actuality a specific air of 'fresh breath/breeze of mountain', that is, go to the highest mountain, where the air is the purist, crispest cleanest, most envigorating that you have ever felt, combine this with a deep ancient forest earthiness, that connects the souls of your feet in a sense of completeness,... now perhaps we are getting close to the sense of fuzei.
--however, I am trying to use its concept as a working design tool.

You would need to ponder what your definition of 'tranquility' is. I actually read your needed 'air of fuzei', as '+happy thoughts+balanced immediately'.

comments on the rest:
- your viewing platform is the key. It should be a rustic outside teahouse (chaso) that has the stream running through it, with a finished interior to the barefoot standard. It would be surrounded by woodland.
-This would likely be the elevated part of the garden, with the waterfall emerging from directly outside one wall to the inside 'flow through' area. This outside area would be defined by the sense of deep woodland, large leaves, high humidity, cool, etc. that would eventually when built answer 'fuzei'.

The inner patterns would be attuned to your cultural taste. I would suggest that the entering waterfall area be natural (so) with stone (perhaps with an inset basin, and within a foot or two after the basin, transition to become highly finished (shin), the (perhaps offset) kneeling stone being the transition device. After this point the stream would be of high finish, and by using several right angles or reversals (Okinawan pattern) would slow the water.
- At 39% or 61% of the length of the teahouse, the right angles will again transition through gyo to so, using both manmade finished items and natural stone, which has one internal 2" waterfall of stones tuned in the mid and low range. At the edge of the teahouse, the stream would emerge off center with another slight waterfall of 3".
-Koi would be able to swim into the teahouse and back out to the pond. Alternatively part (39%) of the inside floor of the teahouse could be cut inwards, under the roof, as a 'bay', docking area, with sitting boat stones doubling as walkout stones. The stream would run directly into this 'bay'.
Details for the stream are numerous, not mentioned here for simplicity.

-The inner workings of the teahouse: I would suggest that the shape be a large square, or if no limits exist on budget, an elongated 8 sided teahouse. This would be to accommodate the inside stream, the outside area, and provide the high level of acoustics that fulfill the separation of outside and inside.

The inner roof panels, the angles should be adjustable, lowerable for control, when entertaining. The construction of course goes back to your cultural patterns (childhood = 3 generations). These roof panels or side panels that are part of the design of the walls would also direct cool air or retain heat when the sunken hearth is in use.

Once you've built this much, or something more attuned to your taste, and feel a sudden need for an intaking refreshing breath of purity and air, that is invigorating to deeply inhale, physically releasing to exhale, you are getting close to a feeling of fuzei.
______
An alternative would also be to use different heights inside the teahouse. Highly controversial at first thought, yet practical & suitable if designed well, using outer perimeters as 'levels to the inside'. This would create a 'boathouse + teahouse' combination. The definitive social order of 'approach' would need to be well addressed in the design and building phase.

small refinements along the way: your 'enclosure/perimeter' would be the Douglas Fir forest, the 'device' by which you bring the pattern of that forest into the garden, is shakkei.
-if separation is wished from the house then use the stroll garden to do so.
-any elevation except what is gained from pond excavation is not really needed, unless more of the up/down plane of motion will help you separate from the 'outside'. -that would be the time to call the trucks with soil, I would first call the backhoe.

fuzei has more connection with human perception ( & scientific reality) of the sensory experience of space, its enclosure and our response to it, specifically in regard to 'how good it makes us feel'.
At one level of the art of placement (fusui/fengshui), this overlaps in that 'if fuzei exists, then everything must be in its right place'. Beyond this, in my experience so far, no other relationship exists.
edzard

Edzard;

I apologize for my delay. Out of town on business........

Thank You for the clarification. Great explanation which required a considerable amount of thought. Your last paragraph speaks volumes.

Also, thank you for showing me another gear concerning my design. I printed out your comments while away and referenced them on the drive back. Hours of drivetime coupled with an energerized source of inspiration led to many hours of daydreaming. No, you do not want to be anywhere around me when I am driving and thinking at this level. My family assures me that I am well insured.

Next time you are in Seattle, I owe you a dinner with many Kanpais

Michael

"As the rice grain develops, the rice plant bends."

Politness first, please excuse: Edzardsan, kotoshi mo yoroshiku onegai shimasu.

I have read this as I read most of Edzards posts as an observer and as kohai. Never having posted anything my apologies if I am not in correct form.

My background in Japanese gardens is long but my background as a practitioner of Aikido is longer by far. As a student of O Sensei, I was taught by someone as a child to understand that my Sempai had knowledge that I could not understand until I grew as a tree.

Trees continue to grow through many attacks in there lives and forever grow on. As I suspect Edzard will..

In Aikido we don't have contests. Competition creates a competitive mind. Not to win is not to lose; not to lose is not to compete. The winners today will lose tomorrow, the losers will end with frustration in their minds and hearts.

Arguing to prove your point is not the way (michi). Proving that you are right is wrong. These are things a beginner needs to grasp before they continue on. Unfortunatly, there are experts here that haven't ever learned this and now are "expertly" offering there views.

As a beginner I learned a sword is made from ore. It is heated red hot, and pounded and folded many times, to get rid of waste particles.

Like swords, the beginners will be pounded, and their techniques are rough, but with coordination of calm mind and body, someday they will become smooth in their arts. When they become sharp, they must keep their sharpness like a sharp sword; it must be kept in the scabbard.

I would say that Edzards comments firmly incouraged some humblness that was rebuffed again by a pupil that isn't ready to truly learn old lessons late in life. As to why he continues to try I suspect that Edzard has learned that "The ocean accepts all rivers without discrimination"

Sharp words here show someone that does not understand basic ideals that should have been learned early in life to grow depth. Brook and river waters are rough, but the lake and ocean are calm because of their depth. Beginners are rough, but someday become calm. Rough water cannot be seen through. We will be able to see through calm water. Not all calm water is clear, but someday it will be so.

To some that offer there "expert" advise I would say to wait for clarity.

To teachers like Edzard that understand the law of nature is to "give and you shall receive" I say onegai itashimasu.

And to all of those of us that are willing to learn: Seiretsu!