uhm, ah, gee, ahhh,... I don't quite know what to say... really.
? - - what an opportunity Erik.
May I ask you to rethink this a bit, as what you have indicated to me, (I'm trying to be kind here, btw), is that you admit we are worth 75,000USD.
and... you are going to..
" post pictures of the area and just soak in all the ideas that everyone has." (erik)
and, our reward for this is...
"As the garden progresses I will post updated pictures. " (erik)

I suspect you've tried to be kindly honest Erik and that is appreciated, and I respond in the same way,...
however, as a suggestion, some rethinking of a strategy or recompense is needed, some value returned to this community that is going to provide time and considerable thought to these ideas. This constitutes a value of some sort for all these ideas that are for you to freely soak up.

Which, as an idea, has proven to be previously already wasted as an example by /Henrik who doesn't listen to good advice and careens away on thoughtless building against good advice,.. instead of rebuilding to the first suggestions, so that eventually he does have at least a structure to a 'Japanese garden' instead of a continuous series of 'corrections' in his landscape.

Frankly speaking, he wasted a lot of peoples time and effort, their kindness in considering the hours of design considerations, preparing of vignettes and photoshop pictures... only to do what he wanted in the first place...

Then, what did the Forum participants learn?? How to build better gardens?

presumably then, people asking for design only wish for needed validation??, rather than good design solutions?

i would suggest,
1) establishing a set of guidelines starting with, following the suggestions, making corrections when the work is not to spec.
2) that you ask what you may do to evolve a design, what to read, what to try, what to experience, etc.

and, if others have suggestions...?
with kind regards and welcome to the Jgard Forum,
edzard

Edzard.

The only implying that I was making is that unless you want to spend 75k+ on creating such a landscape and hiring probably a handfull of people in this city who could do it that is an option. Personally over the next few years my entire backyard, not just the garden but the whole backyard has a maximum budget of somewhere around 5-12k dollars. Even if I had 75k sitting around I would not be putting it in my neighborhood of 175,000 homes. My hope in posting was to take other peoples knowledge (they're trials and errors)and use it to avoid the many common pitfalls that I am sure exist when creating this type of garden. My expectation was to gather input, use the idea's that appeal to me (Both appearance and expense wise)During construction and completion my thought was to be able to pass on problems that I had come across so others could gain the benefits of my mistakes and how they were corrected. I felt the whole idea of a fourum was to share idea's and to help solve or discuss issues. I certainly do not want to drain people of their time for my yard, I was merely looking for ideas. Would I use all idea's or do things on my own way regardless ala Henrik as you say? Henrik has to live and pay for his own things as I have to for mine so yes If I have to live with it then the final choice is mine, but that does not mean the advice was not appreciated or used to some extent. Once again thank you for the response and I hope I clarified to an extent my reason for posting on this fourm.

Erik,

Two very encouraging bits, to my mind, are that your yard is surrounded by a stone wall, and that you plan to block off a further one third of it for your Japanese garden. If the one third is next to your house, and the house has a room or rooms with sliding glass doors giving access to it at ground level, it should be a very good start. Pictures will most certainly be welcome.

I think that a few years ago, the JOJG had an article suggesting that the first stage in designing your garden should - if you have access to good-sized rocks - be the selection and placing of the rocks. Maybe somebody can recall which issue it was in.

Herb

Herb,

Thanks for the response. I have a covered patio that goes along the entire length of the house behind. As I block of the yard the JGarden side will have access thru a sliding door to the master bedroom out onto a small 10x10 porch that will over look the yard. All of this is at the far end of the lot and all along the west side of the house. I have a 6foot block wall around the entire yard, but it is the grey slump block that was used here in the late 60's, definatly better than chain link, but not the most eye pleaseing around. I will post some pictures of the area, but be forwarned it has been my dumping ground and is a total disaster. Dimensions from the 10x10 patio are 19 ft to the back wall that runs 32ft across the back and another 50 ft or so across the side of the house. I am guestimating appx. 500 sqft for the garden itself.

Regards

Erik

Herb here is a link to a couple of pictures I snapped. Once again pardon the disaster the backyard has become, Believe it or not it was actually worse when I bought the place. In regards to the block wall I was considering setting up a rail and using red cedar fencing to cover it. As far as blocking off the garden from the rest of the yard once again I am considering a 5ft red cedar fence with a 1ft cap over the top with a gated entry. 6ft is maximum height for any wall in Tucson.

Regards

Erik

Here is a link that might be useful: Proposed site for Japanese garden

Erik, thank you for the clarifications, - it moved your query along...
being in an Aikido dojo expectations should be higher, is ossu understood in your dojo? In time I suppose your original post will be better understood and differently worded.

-it would be suggested that # 2 still be responded to.

Instead of redwood or the expense, consider a Japanese dobei wall, --mud, and utilizing most of the site, which has excellent possibilities. Study more of Shunnyo Masuno's 'modernistic' solutions to integrate your daily living requirements, if you have a list.
Is there a back alley? with what capabilities for crane or truck? What soil substrate type?
I'll leave the rest to Herb or others...
edzard

Thanks Edzard,

I will look into your dobei wall suggestion, as far as #2 is concerned I am working on sketching and graphing a design. I have purchased 6-7 books and am still in the soaking the mind with idea's mode. I study Iwama Aikido (Saito Sensei) but yes I understand ossu. There is alley access in back thankfully as it is the only way to put large object in the yard.

regards

Erik

Erik,..
that is just the point, of ossu, and your first posting. If you understand ossu, (being first black at the least) then you have just embarrassed your dojo. Think again, ....ossu......
It is not necessary for you to have ideas at this stage, it is however necessary to have an understanding of your clients needs and requirements and the needs and requirements of the site.

First lesson ((i) choosing to lesson since you are not listening to ossu): as a designer of the garden, understand that the gardeners wants are the last of three needs.

The first requirement is that the site is to be listened to.
The second requirement is that the client be listened to: (not you)
The third requirement is to understand that the gardener is the translator of the needs of site and client, and that his taste is to be expressed as a solution of the needs of the site and then the needs of the client.

The gardener has no needs, just taste.

And this is where 99% of the gardens that evolve through a forum atmosphere fail miserably. The gardener thinks he is the client.
These personas need to be separated to succeed.
ossu?
edzard

Erik,

I think your wall could easily be made to look like a Dobei wall. I doubt you need to go to the lengths of using stucco over it (much less clay!) so long as you could get a suitable paint in a colour you like. I'm giving a link to a picture that includes a wall that I think looks rather nice - though I'm not suggesting that you should try to make your garden in that style: I shouldn't think you want a "Zen" style garden, & among other things I should think that maintaining moss like that in your climate would be out of the question.

Not all of the scenes in the second picture are 'Japanese' but they may give you ideas for rock placements.

You will presumably want some plants as well as rocks - and presumably you'd like them to be heat resistant and not to need a lot of water. Not everything in the third picture meets that requirement, but again it may give you some ideas.

Herb

{{gwi:1009790}}

{{gwi:1009790}}

{{gwi:1009790}}{{gwi:1009790}}

Thanks, Herb

I am going to wait on a decision with the wall until I have to address it. My first project is to strip the area of everything... (Bad burmuda and weed problems)and start thinking of materials and type of divider fence. I drew a rough sketch of the area, but purposly left out the west side of the house as I intend to place a small orchard of dwarf fruit trees on the side..that should transisiton well into or out of the garden. The fence is an interesting problem. More Block is costly and abit cold...Cedar is less expensive and more authentic, but the heat here play's havoc on wood. I in that 19ft section of fence I want to try a capped entry way similar to the ones that you guy's have been talking about in recent forums, but that is still cart before the horse lol. I agree on the more Zen style for the desert, however the wife wants a waterfall so in the end I will probably incorporate the Zen with a hill and pond style. I did read that mixing styles is not only permisable but done quite frequently in Japan..I hope that is true.

Regards

Erik

Here is a link that might be useful: Rough sketch of area

Eric

My advice is to not rush it. get to know your new room for a full season, find out where it is too hot, where it is too bright, drainage, draying winds. Your selection of plant material will hinge upon these.

Study your soil and improve it.

Consider a dry garden.

good luck

Jeepster,

Thanks for the input, I agree and have to admit that I did not read Herb's statement correctly. He suggested that I would not want a Zen style (with the moss etc..) in Arizona and that is absolutly correct. I think Zen and I automatically think all rock, and of course this is my ignorance. My basic plan is to heavier rock and stone, less live material. One has to be realistic and know that as beautiful as a maple is, Arizona is not the place for one. Chinese Junipers and Redbuds, Pines and such do quite well here as well as bamboo so I must be wise in my choices.

Erik - I just remembered that you said you wife wants a waterfall. Several years ago my wife said that she wanted a pond.

I thought a pond would consume too much water - Victoria isn't as dry as where you live, but we still have a water shortage, with consequent restrictions, every summer.

So, I persuaded her that we should first try something much more modest - and this was the result. Aside from it's being way more economical than a pond, the other benefit is that my wife loves it - she's fascinated by the birds that come to it (and has forgotten all about the pond).

Click to see it

She want's a waterfall type feature, This idea in your picture is more to my liking and less work. Herb this is one of those cases where I will present the pros and cons of everything and let her choose. Our main yard was being planned with grass for the kids.. with the irrigation system it was going to run $15/sqft. She came to me this weekend and said rock and planter only which not only saves water but around $3000.00 in total costs.

Then at this juncture,two requirements come into play:
1) that the succession growth garden is needed that will support a certain amount of humidity for plants becomes a necessity. That the primary garden design is one that is truer to Japan, by creating shade, allowing in light, a garden of shades, that becomes a requirement to manage the infrastructure costs.
This can then be balanced to the view which may have more of a monastic feel/atmosphere with a karesansui garden.
2) that mitate mono, the reuse of objects/things for another use - recycling becomes important.

a third element is that agian I would suggest studying Shunnmyo Masuno's work to see where innovation may be employed, or several copies of Niwa -Garden Architecture be read - perhaps through interlibrary loan or ??

Erik,

I've found the issue of the JOJG that I had in mind - it's issue #34, (Jul/Aug 2003). If you can get a copy of it I think you'd find it interesting.

The article lists - and discusses, with illustrations - 5 tasks that it recommends when planning a Japanese Garden - in order of priority. I take the first one, which is "Get Rid of the Deck", with a pinch of salt because it seems (to me) that some people may misunderstand it to be saying - "Don't ever have an Engawa" & I don't think they can mean that.

However, here are their 5 recommendations -

1. Abandon the suburban deck concept.
2. Start with a window view.
3. Position your garden up close and personal
4. Invest in big rocks early.
5. Enclose your garden from the outside world.

I think that - apart from not at present having big rocks (if you want them) - your site fits the JOJG recommendations rather well.

It seems a shame to break up such an either or, two horse race but here is a late rush from an outsider (perhaps an 'also ran').
One of the most common compliments I get from satisfied clients, or passers by, is "It looks much better than it did." Whatever you do Erik you are almost guaranteed of the same response about your garden so be positive!
I see your wall as an advantage, not as it is aesthetically mind you but for the sense of enclosure it provides, I don't think it would be too difficult to upgrade its appearance. There is something about the overhang on your house that is vaguely reminiscent of certain Japanese architecture and perhaps this could be beefed up. Stepping out from a glass door is also a plus although it being attached to the master bedroom may not work.
Moving big rocks into the area would be a leap of faith and you need to think this through thoroughly as it will not be easy getting them in and worse than that to get them out. Herb has a computer programme where you can, more or less, see what it will look like in advance so try that. Edzard is talking about sustainability above and as you will only want to do this once I suggest that you consider this a priority.
Don't make a garden that the kids can't touch.

Thanks Herb, INK, Edzard

To clarify a few points:

Edzard- I to an extent understand your points in regards to Fuzei. Issues that I have run into in my lifetime including Aikido is the western mind adapting to asian concepts. While cultural ideas are thought to be understood by the West they really never are. I appreciate the beauty and culture of the society and believe there are many elements that we here in North America should embrace I will never be able to emulate or train my mind to think. As we converse I am honestly not trying to put the cart before the horse I am whether right or wrong thinking like a westerner that I am.

Herb and INK- First off, the garden is for myself and my wife..no kids allowed. (at least not unless accompanied by an adult!) In looking back at the house my thoughts were to build a wall where the current wrought iorn is coming off the house. This wall + the fenceline from the patio post out would effectively seal off the yard from everyone. On the newly constructed wall and on the back of the house where the brick is exposed I planed on installing a stone veneer to cover the red brick. I planned on a deck effectively making the transition from the house to outside level. Under the eaves there is a skylight not visable in the picture. My plan was to cover the current underneath of the patio with cedar soffit or another wood making that porch of stone and wood. Top off the back of the house with new 4X4 posts and a copper gutter.

I absolutly agree with the idea of sustainability and That is why I am going very slow. I susbscribed to JG journel and will continue to study as I go along. I am sub-contracting most of the work, mostly because I am a numbers type person and truly not very gifted in the way's of construction. I am fortunate in this project to have two neighbors who both retired master woodworkers from their Union and a client who is an upscale landscaper. None of them have done this type of work before, however all have offered to help with the landscaper giving me his time for no charge and all materials at his cost. The catch to this project is time. I was told (Edzard this is where the 75K number came in) that client/landscapper would not touch a job that was less then 50k. If I was willing to go slow, let his crew work on Saturday's to earn extra money, and use his resources at or below cost I could literally have a 50-70k yard at a 10-15k price. The kicker was time, the entire project might take 2 years which is fine because he knows nothing of creating a JGarden and needs me to direct him as to what to do. I sorry for being long winded but since everyone is helping so much with idea's I wanted Herb and Edzard to know a little more detail then I originally gave.

Regards

Erik