I am a new member here in Arizona. I know very little about gardening and things Japanese, except for visits when in the military and practicing Aikido. I live in Tucson around 100 miles from the border with Mexico. I am begining to start landscaping my backyard that now consists of a half-dead lemon tree and dirt. I have been at this house for 2 years and have only just recently been able to redo the front of the house and now the backyard beckons. I have a fairly good sized yard (roughly 1800 sqft with a stone wall) 2/3rds of the yard will be turned into a conventional Arizona yard of decomposed granite, planter and BBQ (very low maintainace. The remaing 1/3rd I want to block off and create a garden for myself and wife to enjoy. Being in Arizona is abit of a challange with tempetures here this year being as high as 113F. I have bought books and read articles on creating a garden but landscappers here (unless you want to pay 75,000 USD or more have no clue on creating this type of enviroment. Right now there is debris and dirt in the area where I want to start my garden (truly begining from scratch) I have learned more here in the last few day's then all of the books I have read that I would love some input on an ongoing basis. I would like to post pictures of the area and just soak in all the ideas that everyone has. As the garden progresses I will post updated pictures. I feel this project will take several years as time and money dictate, but this novice would greatly appreciate any helping hand.

Regards

Erik

I suspect you've tried to be kindly honest Erik and that is appreciated, and I respond in the same way,...
however, as a suggestion, some rethinking of a strategy or recompense is needed, some value returned to this community that is going to provide time and considerable thought to these ideas. This constitutes a value of some sort for all these ideas that are for you to freely soak up.

Which, as an idea, has proven to be previously already wasted as an example by /Henrik who doesn't listen to good advice and careens away on thoughtless building against good advice,.. instead of rebuilding to the first suggestions, so that eventually he does have at least a structure to a 'Japanese garden' instead of a continuous series of 'corrections' in his landscape.

Frankly speaking, he wasted a lot of peoples time and effort, their kindness in considering the hours of design considerations, preparing of vignettes and photoshop pictures... only to do what he wanted in the first place...

Then, what did the Forum participants learn?? How to build better gardens?

presumably then, people asking for design only wish for needed validation??, rather than good design solutions?

i would suggest,
1) establishing a set of guidelines starting with, following the suggestions, making corrections when the work is not to spec.
2) that you ask what you may do to evolve a design, what to read, what to try, what to experience, etc.

and, if others have suggestions...?
with kind regards and welcome to the Jgard Forum,
edzard

The only implying that I was making is that unless you want to spend 75k+ on creating such a landscape and hiring probably a handfull of people in this city who could do it that is an option. Personally over the next few years my entire backyard, not just the garden but the whole backyard has a maximum budget of somewhere around 5-12k dollars. Even if I had 75k sitting around I would not be putting it in my neighborhood of 175,000 homes. My hope in posting was to take other peoples knowledge (they're trials and errors)and use it to avoid the many common pitfalls that I am sure exist when creating this type of garden. My expectation was to gather input, use the idea's that appeal to me (Both appearance and expense wise)During construction and completion my thought was to be able to pass on problems that I had come across so others could gain the benefits of my mistakes and how they were corrected. I felt the whole idea of a fourum was to share idea's and to help solve or discuss issues. I certainly do not want to drain people of their time for my yard, I was merely looking for ideas. Would I use all idea's or do things on my own way regardless ala Henrik as you say? Henrik has to live and pay for his own things as I have to for mine so yes If I have to live with it then the final choice is mine, but that does not mean the advice was not appreciated or used to some extent. Once again thank you for the response and I hope I clarified to an extent my reason for posting on this fourm.

Two very encouraging bits, to my mind, are that your yard is surrounded by a stone wall, and that you plan to block off a further one third of it for your Japanese garden. If the one third is next to your house, and the house has a room or rooms with sliding glass doors giving access to it at ground level, it should be a very good start. Pictures will most certainly be welcome.

I think that a few years ago, the JOJG had an article suggesting that the first stage in designing your garden should - if you have access to good-sized rocks - be the selection and placing of the rocks. Maybe somebody can recall which issue it was in.

Herb

Thanks for the response. I have a covered patio that goes along the entire length of the house behind. As I block of the yard the JGarden side will have access thru a sliding door to the master bedroom out onto a small 10x10 porch that will over look the yard. All of this is at the far end of the lot and all along the west side of the house. I have a 6foot block wall around the entire yard, but it is the grey slump block that was used here in the late 60's, definatly better than chain link, but not the most eye pleaseing around. I will post some pictures of the area, but be forwarned it has been my dumping ground and is a total disaster. Dimensions from the 10x10 patio are 19 ft to the back wall that runs 32ft across the back and another 50 ft or so across the side of the house. I am guestimating appx. 500 sqft for the garden itself.

Regards

Erik

Regards

Erik

-it would be suggested that # 2 still be responded to.

Instead of redwood or the expense, consider a Japanese dobei wall, --mud, and utilizing most of the site, which has excellent possibilities. Study more of Shunnyo Masuno's 'modernistic' solutions to integrate your daily living requirements, if you have a list.
Is there a back alley? with what capabilities for crane or truck? What soil substrate type?
I'll leave the rest to Herb or others...
edzard

I will look into your dobei wall suggestion, as far as #2 is concerned I am working on sketching and graphing a design. I have purchased 6-7 books and am still in the soaking the mind with idea's mode. I study Iwama Aikido (Saito Sensei) but yes I understand ossu. There is alley access in back thankfully as it is the only way to put large object in the yard.

regards

Erik

First lesson ((i) choosing to lesson since you are not listening to ossu): as a designer of the garden, understand that the gardeners wants are the last of three needs.

The first requirement is that the site is to be listened to.
The second requirement is that the client be listened to: (not you)
The third requirement is to understand that the gardener is the translator of the needs of site and client, and that his taste is to be expressed as a solution of the needs of the site and then the needs of the client.

The gardener has no needs, just taste.

And this is where 99% of the gardens that evolve through a forum atmosphere fail miserably. The gardener thinks he is the client.
These personas need to be separated to succeed.
ossu?
edzard

I think your wall could easily be made to look like a Dobei wall. I doubt you need to go to the lengths of using stucco over it (much less clay!) so long as you could get a suitable paint in a colour you like. I'm giving a link to a picture that includes a wall that I think looks rather nice - though I'm not suggesting that you should try to make your garden in that style: I shouldn't think you want a "Zen" style garden, & among other things I should think that maintaining moss like that in your climate would be out of the question.

Not all of the scenes in the second picture are 'Japanese' but they may give you ideas for rock placements.

You will presumably want some plants as well as rocks - and presumably you'd like them to be heat resistant and not to need a lot of water. Not everything in the third picture meets that requirement, but again it may give you some ideas.

Herb

Click to see the wall

Click for the 6 scenes

Click for the kinds of plants that might look at home where you live, if you can find some things that look like them & suit your climate.

I am going to wait on a decision with the wall until I have to address it. My first project is to strip the area of everything... (Bad burmuda and weed problems)and start thinking of materials and type of divider fence. I drew a rough sketch of the area, but purposly left out the west side of the house as I intend to place a small orchard of dwarf fruit trees on the side..that should transisiton well into or out of the garden. The fence is an interesting problem. More Block is costly and abit cold...Cedar is less expensive and more authentic, but the heat here play's havoc on wood. I in that 19ft section of fence I want to try a capped entry way similar to the ones that you guy's have been talking about in recent forums, but that is still cart before the horse lol. I agree on the more Zen style for the desert, however the wife wants a waterfall so in the end I will probably incorporate the Zen with a hill and pond style. I did read that mixing styles is not only permisable but done quite frequently in Japan..I hope that is true.

Regards

Erik

My advice is to not rush it. get to know your new room for a full season, find out where it is too hot, where it is too bright, drainage, draying winds. Your selection of plant material will hinge upon these.

Study your soil and improve it.

Consider a dry garden.

good luck

Thanks for the input, I agree and have to admit that I did not read Herb's statement correctly. He suggested that I would not want a Zen style (with the moss etc..) in Arizona and that is absolutly correct. I think Zen and I automatically think all rock, and of course this is my ignorance. My basic plan is to heavier rock and stone, less live material. One has to be realistic and know that as beautiful as a maple is, Arizona is not the place for one. Chinese Junipers and Redbuds, Pines and such do quite well here as well as bamboo so I must be wise in my choices.

I thought a pond would consume too much water - Victoria isn't as dry as where you live, but we still have a water shortage, with consequent restrictions, every summer.

So, I persuaded her that we should first try something much more modest - and this was the result. Aside from it's being way more economical than a pond, the other benefit is that my wife loves it - she's fascinated by the birds that come to it (and has forgotten all about the pond).

Click to see it

a third element is that agian I would suggest studying Shunnmyo Masuno's work to see where innovation may be employed, or several copies of Niwa -Garden Architecture be read - perhaps through interlibrary loan or ??

I've found the issue of the JOJG that I had in mind - it's issue #34, (Jul/Aug 2003). If you can get a copy of it I think you'd find it interesting.

The article lists - and discusses, with illustrations - 5 tasks that it recommends when planning a Japanese Garden - in order of priority. I take the first one, which is "Get Rid of the Deck", with a pinch of salt because it seems (to me) that some people may misunderstand it to be saying - "Don't ever have an Engawa" & I don't think they can mean that.

However, here are their 5 recommendations -

1. Abandon the suburban deck concept.
2. Start with a window view.
3. Position your garden up close and personal
4. Invest in big rocks early.
5. Enclose your garden from the outside world.

I think that - apart from not at present having big rocks (if you want them) - your site fits the JOJG recommendations rather well.

To clarify a few points:

Edzard- I to an extent understand your points in regards to Fuzei. Issues that I have run into in my lifetime including Aikido is the western mind adapting to asian concepts. While cultural ideas are thought to be understood by the West they really never are. I appreciate the beauty and culture of the society and believe there are many elements that we here in North America should embrace I will never be able to emulate or train my mind to think. As we converse I am honestly not trying to put the cart before the horse I am whether right or wrong thinking like a westerner that I am.

Herb and INK- First off, the garden is for myself and my wife..no kids allowed. (at least not unless accompanied by an adult!) In looking back at the house my thoughts were to build a wall where the current wrought iorn is coming off the house. This wall + the fenceline from the patio post out would effectively seal off the yard from everyone. On the newly constructed wall and on the back of the house where the brick is exposed I planed on installing a stone veneer to cover the red brick. I planned on a deck effectively making the transition from the house to outside level. Under the eaves there is a skylight not visable in the picture. My plan was to cover the current underneath of the patio with cedar soffit or another wood making that porch of stone and wood. Top off the back of the house with new 4X4 posts and a copper gutter.

I absolutly agree with the idea of sustainability and That is why I am going very slow. I susbscribed to JG journel and will continue to study as I go along. I am sub-contracting most of the work, mostly because I am a numbers type person and truly not very gifted in the way's of construction. I am fortunate in this project to have two neighbors who both retired master woodworkers from their Union and a client who is an upscale landscaper. None of them have done this type of work before, however all have offered to help with the landscaper giving me his time for no charge and all materials at his cost. The catch to this project is time. I was told (Edzard this is where the 75K number came in) that client/landscapper would not touch a job that was less then 50k. If I was willing to go slow, let his crew work on Saturday's to earn extra money, and use his resources at or below cost I could literally have a 50-70k yard at a 10-15k price. The kicker was time, the entire project might take 2 years which is fine because he knows nothing of creating a JGarden and needs me to direct him as to what to do. I sorry for being long winded but since everyone is helping so much with idea's I wanted Herb and Edzard to know a little more detail then I originally gave.

Regards

Erik