I don't think all the pines should be set in identical 'S' trainings but the pines at the back should be shaped and pruned for good character otherwise the tops will start to dominate and they will become more vigorous than the others.

The bamboo trainers are not the only way the Japanese shape trees. Sometimes a simple rope pulls a tree in a desired direction (with padding around the trunk). Sometimes wiring achieves much of the effect. When you get your pines assess each one and choose the best for each position and tailor their pruning/training as they dictate. If by luck a tree already has a good kink at the bottom then simply prune to bring this out.

PS. I know the plan garden you mean and it's a really good one, exquisitely restrained choice of plants.

Hi Monkeybutt --- I love your name :-)

There's a great saying in Japanese: "Even a monkey can fall from a tree" (meaning everyone makes mistakes). In Japanese it's "Saru mo ki kara ochiru." It's one of my favorite sayings.

There's another one "Saru no shiri warai" which translates as "to laugh at a monkey's butt" --- it means something like "the pot calling the kettle black" (because our butts look like monkey butts).

By the way, we suggest avoiding the term "jap." as it's generally considered offensive to Japanese. If you want to abbreviate, you can use "Jpnse."

Welcome to the forum, and good luck with your garden!

Lee

Like Cytania, think I'd prefer it if the pines weren't identically shaped.

I hesitate to say anything critical about the Adachi Museum garden, but the two nearly identical trees in the foreground of this picture for example seem (to me) to be a bit - what's the word - discordant, unnatural, contrived?

I suppose it boils down to a matter of a matter of personal taste.

Herb
{{gwi:1009858}}

Hey Herb... Whose photos are ya stealing? Ever consider that it might be against the law? But maybe I'm out of line, here. Please fill us in.

Why is Herb out of line? He doest take credit for them...

Anyway, that picture is a reeeeally nice one. I love the patches of snow.

I bought a Pinus Nigra (very difficult plant to find) and I am having plans to prune it. The pruning tips in books like "a japanese touch for your garden" are very simplistic. Perhaps there is a place on the internet with real photos that show when someone is pruning a pine?

And that plan in the book is really nice, but with those plant suggestions, one has to be a millionaire... LOL.

good luck
Henrik

Hi MrNorth, do you really mean pinus nigra?, the Austrian pine (although it's from Serbia), this is a different pine from the Japanese Black Pine - pinus thunbergiana. Pinus nigra spp nigra is a good choice for toughness, it tolerates pollution, damp, drought and cold. You'll find pinch-pruning doesn't really stimulate it but an annual prune and shape about November is good. It's very apically dominant so get tough with the top. I have some young pinus nigras myself, although I can't really claim to have achieved anything like a good shaping yet.

Thank you all for the excellent advice. cytania I will experiment with different methods of shaping. Herb that is an excellent picture and it makes an excellent point. It's better to learn from others mistakes. Lee, sorry for the abbrieviation abuse, I meant no ill will and have great respect for the Japanese people and their culture. I am glad you enjoy my name and thank you for the Japanese sayings, I will try to incorporate them into my vocabulary. I was surfing the net yesterday and found a Japanese garden journal. It seems like a nice source of information on many different aspects of Japanese gardening. It has a section in each issue about how to prune and shape pines. I plan on subscribing in the near future. Does anyone here subscribe to that publication?
Here is the web-site. http://www.rothteien.com/

Hi Monkeybut,
If you click on my link below you can see what I have done with my Pinus Parviflora the white pine just go to the Japanese style pine page.
George.

Here is a link that might be useful: George's Japanese Garden

Wow George that is absolutely beautiful. Your yard looks amazing. Thanks for the advice and I will bookmark your site for reference.
Thanks again!

Bahamababe -

The photo is in an album on the Internet that is open to the public. My posting merely shows you where it can be found. I'm not going to sue you, but I do suggest that you bear in mind that making a false accusation of theft can be defamatory.

Since we're discussing ethics, a more interesting question might be, Is it ethical to deceive deliberately by masquarading as someone else on in an Internet discussion group? Several participants seem rather suspicious to me. They are getting more elaborate about their disguises these days, but you can still detect the wolf's fur peeking out from under the sheep's clothing....

Lee (really me)

Monkeybutt -

You asked about the Roth's Journal of Japanese Gardening. Doug Roth has strong opinions on the topic, and these cause polite disagreement among other experts and, now and again, even downright abuse. I recommend you pay no attention to the abuse.

I've subscribed to the JOJG for several years and I've found it both informative and useful. Incidentally, an index to past issues is being compiled & you can access it if you Click here

Lee, I choose to enjoy and benefit from most postings in this forum, regardless of their motives or their true identity. After all, few of the members use their real name. Those that don't interest me, or don't seem productive are easily ignored. Life is easy. ;)

Lee, I will use your Japanese sayings often! Thanks for sharing.

Monkeybutt is a nickname we gave to the double coconut seed that lives in San Antonio's Palm Conservatory. If you saw it, you would understand. I wonder how you came to choose this name? On your pines, ask your nurseryman if he has any with unusual growth or crooked trunks. Many nurseries tend to dispose of these, unappreciative of their potential for our interests! You can grow so many pines in your area, you should experiment with several species. Have fun! Cytania is right about P. nigra. It is the most prevalant in our area in the nursery trade. You may have to ask your nurseryman to order P. thunbergiana for you. They are easier to train than nigra, and have a more attractive trunk.

Don

About my pine (pinus nigra) yeah its the austrian pine but it is impossible to find pinus thunbergii her ein sweden, I felt this was as close as i can get... atleast it is a black pine, lol... But I have no clue where to start with the pruning, perhaps its best to wait a few more years.

George, your pines are beautiful, I guess Im looking at 10-20 years of hard work hehe ;)

kind regards
Henrik

Don --- You are right --- life's a lot easier when things are simply taken at face value. There's a saying I like which I would do well to remember: "Take what you like and leave the rest." It's not my job to do something else with "the rest" --- I can just leave it alone.

Glad you liked the monkey sayings.

There's another saying I like which is kind of a tongue-twister: "Atsusa samusa mo higan made." It means the heat and the cold always end with the equinox. By extension it means "all things must pass."

Lee

Herb, Thanks again for the information. I believe I will subscribe to it, it seems like an excellent source of information.
Don, I really don't know the whole story about how I came up with the name monkeybutt, but I've used it as my yahoo e-mail account for many many years. It just seems easier to remember log-ins when my user names are all the same...so I continue to use it to this day. I will check with my nurseryman for unusual or crooked trunks, that is good information. I thought about experimenting with many different pines...there are so many I enjoy....not enough room for them all.Thanks again for all the excellent advice.
This is a very productive and friendly forum. I am glad I joined.

The JOJG is a wonderful journal it is totally dedicated to something and I don't think any of the editorial staff ever visit here to get ideas or stir things up.

In my earlier post I said, "Maybe I'm out of line here..." Well, I regret to say that I WAS out of line and I apologize for bringing my "stolen photo" rant into this thread. I'll be quiet for a bit and gather my thoughts, and later on I'll post some things in that other thread about photography. Sorry to cause such a disruption.

as usually with this forum it tends to go SERIOUSLY off-topic...

as with shaping pines...there's usually an initial crook near the ground...create if you want your first S there or just tilt the tree, and cut the leader then promote a secondary leader with plenty of tertiary branches, as the new leader. And keep promoting until you get an S-like or thunder bolt asymmetric zig-zag. Tie it down with wire tied to stakes. THIS IS JUST THE TRUNK.

black pine is masculine, so envision the branches as a muscle builder, more upright S with more of a horizontal branches.

white pine is feminine, more of a curvy S, then envision the branches as a dancers arms...sort of coming horinzontally out then softly downward where the branches fan out horizontally (this is were you would wire them with maybe solid core battery wires) holding a plate of needle clouds.

One thing too...don't poodle the pine...think clouds.

ckramos,...
-- not sure if I am expressing my curiousity correctly....
- where does the information, background, inclination (?), come from to suggest that an S-like, or _thunderbolt asymetric zigzag_ should be the shape for black pine?
- and envisioning muscle-builder branches?

-and why would you wire the branches on white pine?
thanks,
edzard

I understand that Inky is pulling our leg(s).

Ckramos --- I'm interested in your response to Edzard's questions.

Also, isn't it traditionally the Japanese Red Pine (not the white pine) that's the feminine counterpart to the JBP?

Lee

Indeed, Lee, I have also heard this, though in addition as you also know, the white pine is also suggested as being feminine, I just wondered about the context in the way you mention.
And the bark is so very thin, that wiring, though frowned, upon, somtimes usefull, should be done with wrapping first with rafia

And while doing some research on pine shapes, and why, I always look for sources. So far the zigzag is only common the N. America, etc.

response would be nice.
edzard

I have 2 Eastern white pine in pots, at what age can I try to shape it?

Why not this year? Seems like the sooner you get going the better. If you plan to keep them in pots they'd be considered bonsai, I think.