Hi Herb,
Over the years I have always been led to believe that Japanese gardens evolved via China and Korea ,but having said that we can only read and believe what the MASTERS tell us.You can visit my website and click on page one and read what I read in a very old book on Japanese gardens.
We just have to believe we are being told what's right.
George.

Here is a link that might be useful: George's Japanese Garden

"Did the fundamental influences leading to Japanese garden design come from China and Korea, or is Japanese garden design an entirely Japanese creation?"

I'm inclined to say both. (Although I may not be any more qualified to answer this question than Herb or anyone else, I've never let that sort of thing stop me before :)

One could ask: "Did the fundamental influences leading to Modern American English come from Anglo-Saxon and Norman French, or is Modern American English entirely an English and American creation?"
Linguists do not doubt that MAE is based on Anglo-Saxon and Norman French, nor do they doubt that MAE, Anglo-Saxon and Norman French would be mutually unintelligible to three respective speakers of same.
(Brits may doubt that MAE is at all related to proper English, but that's a different discussion :)

IMHO, there is not much room for doubt that Buddhism, Chinese art traditions, and Korean art and craft traditions formed much of the basis for traditional Japanese gardening. I also do not doubt that the Japanese tradition took these and other elements and forged them into a whole that was and remains unique in the world.

I do, however, doubt that "Sukiya Living" and "Japanese Gardening" are truly as synonymous as JOJG hold them to be, as evidenced by JOJG's self-contradictory insistence that "Sukiya Living" is the correct word for "Japanese Gardening", and that "Japanese Gardening" is not.

Mr. Roth may not agree with me :)

- Evelyn

"Did the fundamental influences leading to Japanese garden design come from China and Korea, or is Japanese garden design an entirely Japanese creation?"
Your question is influenced by what the JOGJ says, what Mark Keane says what Philip Cave says and what they say about what each other says, I doubt that any of it is 'fundamental'.
The question seems to be directed at "Japanese garden design" and then you drift off into "Japanese gardening tradition", are we to assume that you consider these two the same animal?

Inky,

Of course my question takes into note of the differing views of the JOJG, Mark Keane & Phillip Cave. They are what, I think, makes the topic the more interesting.

If you prefer, I'd be happy to hear what you think of the "influences" as opposed to "fundamental influences" involved.

Your approach the question - by asking another - i.e. do I consider "Japanese garden design" and "Japanese gardening tradition" the same animal - makes me ask yet another - do you consider them to be quite unrelated?

I thought this question might have drawn more interest.
In Montreal we have an excellent botanical garden and as befits a multicultural city we have both a Chinese garden and a Japanese garden although I suspect that there is an influence of a far eastern culture in both. There is no Korean garden nor Vietnamese garden not a Thai garden but a thread runs through that it would be hard for me to assign to an individual country. In general visitors attribute the austere elements to the Japanese.

Inky,

So did I. I agree with the visitors' arribution of austerity to the Japanese. It's often seemed to me that in many ways - not just in gardening tradition but in architecture for example, Japan has been to China as England has been to France. The Japanese and English traditions show much more restraint.

One of my books and I can't recall which one introduces the Japanese garden this way..

There are only two approaches one can take towards nature, one can be in opposition to nature or one can be in harmony with nature.

I would believe that this is the undercurrent that runs through gardens in all of Asia.

This has stayed in my mind and is a guiding principle in my approach, beginner that I am.

Bambooo,

But what does that actually mean? Doesn't it raise the question of what being 'in opposition to nature' and 'being in harmony with nature' mean?

To take an extreme case, the novelist Nancy Mitford was very much against altering nature in her garden to the point where she simply didn't garden. I once saw a picture of her, sitting in a deckchair in her back yard - surrounded by a sea of tall weeds - unmown grass, big thistles, and anything else that could get a foothold. She felt, I think, that she & her garden were in harmony with nature.

So, when a Japanese gardener removes grass trying to grow in his beds of moss, or prunes & shapes his trees and shrubs, isn't he really acting in opposition to nature?

It seems to me to be arguable that like any other gardener, the Japanese gardener does his utmost to discipline nature. - and that Nature is constantly rebelling against the discipline. Is that harmony? It is not the case that the Japanese garden is in 'harmony' not so much with nature as with the commands of the gardener - rather as an army squad is in harmony with the commands of a drill sergeant?

Hi Herb and others.

you bought very intresting point of Japanese garden history.
The first recorded Japanese garden in Japanese history tell that build garden by Soga no Umako. he is believed to be descendent of of korean. he was powerfull politician at the time. He is also father in law of Shotoku taishi/Prence Shotoku. many of Japanese temples build in 500's and 600's are build by Korean craftmen and korean monk. Many of Chinese monks name and craftmen show much later piriod of time.

I am attedndig Korean temple and find nice stone larntern book and many other books writen by Japanse and Chinese.
I want to leran Japanese garden history from out side of Japan. Korea is much closer than China . From Tushima Island , you can see land of Korea from Tushima island if weather is right.

I cannot spend lot's of time to write about it very detail.
now. I have not fished my reserch yet.
Hundreds years later, peoples can built better boat and develped better navigation skill, ship was firster and easer than go though Korea by walking.

I am now learnig history of Korea and history of Korean Buddhism. I will come back later day with more Korean informations,and compare with Japanese history.

" what is Korean Buddhism" by Korean buddhism chogye order
ISBN 89-86821-00-1 . It is very good book. Cady has another a good book about Korean buddh which I am going to borrow from her.
mike

"It is not the case that the Japanese garden is in 'harmony' not so much with nature as with the commands of the gardener - rather as an army squad is in harmony with the commands of a drill sergeant?"

Hmm... Myself, I'd like to think that it's more like the way that the ballet troupe is in harmony with the direction of the choreographer...
(and just try getting a Black Pine to do a "Port Arms!")

Portland has both Chinese and Japanese gardens, and I was trying to explain the difference in feeling to someone the other day. The Chinese garden is a series of elegant and ethereal garden rooms, while the Japanese garden seems (almost) as if one had somehow just happened upon a supremely beautiful part of the surrounding Forest Park. My friend suggested that the Chinese seeks to transport you to a place of paradise, while the Japanese garden seeks to create paradise out of its natural surroundings.
That's as close to it as anything I could come up with.

- Evelyn

Evelyn -

What you say is true in many cases, especially with the larger gardens, but I question if it generally applies to small domestic gardens.

The small garden's owner very often surrounds his garden with a wall or hedge for the express purpose of hiding incompatible surroundings and I don't think that a tsuboniwa garden surrounded by the walls of buildings can be said to be in natural surroundings.

I like your ballet choreographer analogy - it's closer than my drill sergeant one - unless we were talking about one of my neighbours. His idea of gardening is growing vegetables in straight lines - and they're definitely all in step. But of course his isn't a Japanese garden.

Herb

"I don't think that a tsuboniwa garden surrounded by the walls of buildings can be said to be in natural surroundings" ... Herb.

perhaps this is one of the points of divergence,..
the tsubo-niwa balances the 'nature of the surroundings', this aspect is true of all Japanese gardens. They do not require natural surroundings being an interface between 'natures'.

From personal observation, the Chinese and Korean gardens invoke, while the Japanese garden evokes.
.....edzard

George - fantastic website.

Isn't the garden a human's effort to capture and integrate bits of nature into their current view of reality? Is it similar to picking a flower during a walk and pinning it to your lapel?

Does it stem from a humanÂs need to bring nature into the immediate environment, not from a utilitarian aspect as in a kitchen garden or a farm but purely from an esthetic aspect. There must be variance or degrees of "in harmony", for to be in perfect harmony would seem to me to make no changes at all in what nature presents to your eyes. In harmony and out of harmony seems to me like two sides of the same coin, once a human starts to manipulate.

I was on a visit to a beautiful garden yesterday in Hawkesbury, Ontario a huge garden. The owner and designer told me that he had purposely build it in sections or rooms and each had its theme. I asked him what his next project was to be and he told me that he wanted to develop an "oriental area, not strictly Japanese but containing influences from all over the Far East." I asked what the theme would be and why should it not be Japanese. He said that the theme would be tranquility but he found Japanese gardens too stiff and even a*al r*tentive.
I tell this because this man's experience of a Japanese garden seems to be at odds with the ideal expressed in some of the above, unless humanizing nature is the same as harmonizing with nature.
Disclaimer: the question is mine but the opinions expressed are not, necessarily.

Inky,
Perhaps the Hawkesbury gardener thinks that all Japanese gardens are karesansui, which arguably could be seen as stiff and even an*l rententive?

Herb,
If a tsuboniwa were to reflect its "natural" surroundings by evoking concrete skyscrapers and neon billboards, with perhaps an asphalt "stream" running through, Edzard is perhaps the only one among who would (or should) attempt its design :)
IMHO, a tsuboniwa is an attempt to create the effect that all these silly buildings and streets are a recent mistake, but in this one spot a tiny bit of the original forest has been left untouched - and it just happpens to be part of the dewy mountain path leading the the rustic but elegant hut of a hermitic tea master.

- Evelyn

Inky - After the owner's finished his new project, I hope that you'll go back to Hawkesbury & take some pictures of the result for us. Like Evelyn, I wonder if the owner's attitude to Japanese gardens is based on raked gravel Zen gardens & if it is, I think it's understandable.

From what you say, the owner's efforts on the completed sections were good. That makes me extra curious to see what the new section will look like.

Evelyn - Yes. I think that a successful tsuboniwa usually makes the viewer unconscious of the world outside it. But at the same time, I think your idea of a tsuboniwa that evokes surrounding skyscrapers is probably quite attainable - Click to see some ingredients & compare them with actual skyscrapers.

It's interesting to hear the different takes on "natural" gardens; I find that the difference between Japanese and Chinese style is just that, stylization. Where the Japanese try to keep both design and materials very natural and relaxing, the Chinese like areas that are reminiscent of nature, but clearly stylized and usually showing man in the middle of it all, whether a pavilion or walkway, statuary or other stone carving (a horrible over-simplification, but our context warrants it). The Japanese garden tradition values nature over man, the Chinese tradition does not place one before the other (what I've seen of Korean gardens is very derivitive of the Chinese model). Shall we start a Chinese garden forum to discuss this in depth? ;)

Scott

Here is a link that might be useful: Sun Yat Sen Garden, Vancouver

Hi Scott.
I am glad that you are doing well.
Are you settled in new home now ? It is lot's of work just have and keep a home, isn't it? and it is well worth troubles.

I have been visiting Korean temple of Sokei shu( Japanese way to pronance) which is largest sect of Korean buddhsim and line of Zen . I can not speak nor read Korean but when they chant Heart sutra , I do understand where they are chanting. :) :):). I am going to bring my Japanese version of heart sutra. two weeks ago bhikkhuni asked me if I can designe Japanese garden for the Temple. without any thought I said yes. The first Japanese garden in our recorded history is built by Korean Craftman. if I can build Japanese garden for Korean temple 1500 years later, it will be fantastic.
The temple has nice liburaly. I found two Japanses garden books, many chinese buddhsim related books, fensui , and few English book as well.

" What is Korean Buddhism" by korean Buddhist Chogye order.ISBN 89--86821-00-1 . I borrow this book from the Temple . It is a very good book and it is written in English. . compound of many temples in Korea sems to not have gardens. I can not tell firmly yet, I have not study deep enought to say it with confident.

reading sutra of purland and serching purland buddhism in China, I found a Chinese pur land buddhim temple located north of Atlanta. I aslo thinking that so called zen garden is something to do with pest contorole.
If Garden has many shurbs trees and plants , it attract bugs which we called some of them as pest. If garden do not have many plants shurbs and tree ,do not attracts bugs and don't have to kill bugs .since
Buddhism it's self teachs not to kill any liveing things.
(It is ok to birds to eat bugs, but not by monk .)
I also find out that many of plants and shurbs, tree used at Japanese temples compoud are not attracting pests and able to use as medecine. for example Namdina, acuba,burning bush,plum tree etc.

we are thinking many things of Japanese garden as 21 century educated standard not Nara piriod nor Heian piriod standard of knowlege. reading sutras of purland Buddhism, now I understand about kinkakuji temple and Ginkakuji temple
better. Without reading sutras my self, I have to depend on some one's opinion and books.
any way, learning Buddhism is joy of life..........mike

Yama-san,

Is there any consideration you could take photos of the proposed garden site before construction begins and then periodically as work progresses so they could be posted on GW? You want good records available 1500 years from now don't you? :D

Please! :))

Greg

Mike-san,

I second Greg. I love the idea of your "returning the favor" by designing a Japanese garden for a Korean temple, and would be very glad to watch its progress if you would post pictures for us.

:) Evelyn

In my notes I took at the Symposium, it was said that Korean gardens are similiar to Italian gardens in the use of rectangles and geometric shapes. It was also noted both Korea and Italy are penninsula nations.

Can anyone elaborate here? Does anyone see a similarity and is geography a factor?

Michael

Well yes, geography is a factor Michael. Who said this?
The parts of Italy that helped to formulate an Italian style were hilly, is Korea hilly? Both are fairly big peninsula's aren't they? You could say that Africa is a peninsula.
If terracing is the similarity it has more to do with the hills than the water.

Hi Inky;

I believe it was Uesugi-san. "Takeo" if you are real close I suppose. My notes were from his "From Traditional to Contemporary: The Evolution of Japanese Gardens" talk he gave.

I have only been to Pohang so I cannot say what the interior of Korea is like (hilly). Anybody been to Korea????

Michael

Hi greg, evelyne.
sorry I quit the job.
The owner is very un ethical person. relaesing toxic chemical to stream,making workers without proper protective gear, violateing numerous regulations of EPA, OSHA,labor law, State's Agri Dep, probably IRS too. not paying over time to 6 of Mexican workers and paying over time other workers who are most likely complain if he do not pay over time. I do not want to be part of it. I can not be proud what I do and
did.

making un educated hard working Mexcan workers to handle category I chemical without proper resperator and training.I don't think worker do not understand meaning of "Danger" nor signe of skull and cross bone on the bag of Disiston. And owner said "no teaching" . Category I chemical can kill average wieght of person one drop to 1 tea spoon full of chemical. and work place had no first aid. no fresh drinkable clean water wokers can access.

I have to find other job................mike

Where was this you were working Mike, China, Korea or Japan?

Hey Inky;

I kinda curious, what has Yama ever done to you????

I mean, he gives more information than anyone else here 2X and it seems that you ride him pretty hard. Both of you are in the trades as it seems. Some kind of philosophical difference perhaps? Technique? Is he a Flames fan?

Not taking sides here, just curious..............

BTW, this message has NOTHING to do with China, Korea, or Japan. See above for my contribution.

Michael

I see now how my last post could be misunderstood, what I meant to express in my own obscure way was disgust that this is happening in the US and not in countries we arrogantly assume to be better than.
What has yama done to me? Shared his passion for the art, given me lots to think about X 2 but this does not exclude a difference of opinion and sometimes humour does not travel. I am not aware of any equestrian motives.

Hi Michel

Inky is another gw friend of mine. I understand him better now. He write while smokeing cuban ciger. after I move to Boston area , I am going to visit him and share his best wisky. I know his real name and home address too. but some reason, I do not use his real name. Evelyne and Greg were thinking of J garden of Korean temple. I have to talk with the Nun more, she does not speak english well ,and so do I. She/Nun do not speak Japanese and I do not understand Korean. Last sunday I started pruning shurbs and small trees. I may not stay in Georgia long eough to complete garden and temple have to come out some plan of found.
It was two different gardens. I made" OoPs" I only send e mail to few freinds about a new job which I quited last Friday.

INky :
Here in USA , Gerogia. not in China, korea nor Japan.
I hope your are not suffering lung cancer.
left over ciger makes strong,effective,and expensive organic pesticide. while you are smoking ciger, thinking of which shurbs and what pests needed to be apply nicotine juce which will make your Cuban ciger taster. hehehehe
mike

So: Michael, I have done a little research and I have discovered what a nacho is (just kidding) no what I discovered is that two thirds of Korea is hilly. Most of what I read claims that a Korean garden is 'natural', that is asymetrical and often contain a pond or some other water feature but no man-made stuff. An equally brief description of an Italian garden would read something like: architectural, symmetrical, usually containing a water feature and loads of man-made objects (including the plants). The similarity between Korea and the area of Italy where these gardens are found is the terrain. In the few pictures I found of Korean gardens the pond was square, said to be influenced by Taoist fairies, this could be the similarity referred to i.e. geometric water features on a hill, I found nothing to suggest a connection with them being peninsulas.

Dear Mike,

Congratulations on quitting your job! :)

Things may be difficult for you now, but it sounds like quitting was the right thing to do, and I'm glad to hear you did it. (IÂm not sure itÂs my place to be proud of you, but I am :)

Years ago, I was laid off from my first job after finishing school mostly because I refused to lie for my boss. He told me to tell a supplier that the check to pay them for their previous work was being sent, when we both knew that that check would not be written for at least three weeks. The point was to cajole them into doing more work for us, for which we would presumably pay them someday.
I'm not a person who usually holds to deep convictions, but I looked at the boss and told him that if he wanted the supplier told that the check was being cut, he would have to tell them that himself. When the lay-off list came out four weeks later, my name was on it.
It was very difficult for me at the time, but I did find another (much better) job, and over the years I've gotten to be slightly proud of finding a level below which I would not descend.

I hope things work out as well or even better :) for you, Yama-san.

with increased respect,

- Evelyn

Thanx Inky- never actually have seen a Korean Garden myself. WHen I ask my Korean friends to describe a Korean garden, after about 30 seconds it sounds like they are describing a Chinese garden.

Terracing and hill work suggest right angles. Perhaps this (and the Taoist influence on ponds) lends to the geometric influence.

Michael

Hi all

I have visited Chinse purland Buddhism dojo yesterday in north Atlanta and am given so much of sutras, comic CD ,some english buddhism books. some of sutra I am going to send it to my mother and going to give some of book and comic CD to my Chinese friend who do not visit Temples. now I can study Japanese buddhism paralell to Korean and Chinese buddlism. I had trouble to tell you/all English Speakers name of Chinse monks,name of dynasy, Korean temples, name of place etc. The way we pronuce Chinese characters are differrent than chinese and Korean people pronance. Top of that,my missspelling,inccorect English grammer and strong accent makes harder. ;) ;)

I do not know how long will take to learn Korean buddhism and Chinese Buddhim , after collect needed informations, then go back to study Japanese garden history, studying Japanese stone lanterns again and compare to Korean and Chinese.
Once I have enought informations togather , I will share those informations with you.

Inky : will you send me e mail . I miss placed your
address, e mail address( give me phone # too. I will not call you while you are smoking ciger. I promiss) ect............... mike