You are talking about a high maintenance garden from the sound of it. Be ready to spend time in caring for the large gravel spaces. Lay down a good quality barrier cloth with good overlaps and no wrinkles before the gravel. I wouldn't use pea gravel as the round surfaces are harder to rake into patterns and easily wash around in heavy rains. Try to find a sharp or broken gravel in the sizes and colors you want. Purchase enough of the color you think you might like and spread it out for a test - you may find it is too stark, or not the shade you wanted. Look at it in the morning, mid day, and evening. Park some of the boulders you want to use to study the relationships of the colors. Ditto with the plant material.

Don't be afraid to change your mind if it is not what you expected. OH, and have fun!

Good advice from Don there. I'd also add that although going for a local natural colour is often good idea the stark contrast of 'silver' crushed granite is a strong part of the 'Zen' garden effect.

Starkly contrasting gravel really brings out the foliage on plants so is a great foil for pines. It also raises the general light level of the garden in the Winter. The advice to experiment with a small area of your chosen gravel is a good one as light and it's seasonal variation differs alot site by site.

Don gives good advice, Cytania adds to this, and I have a middle ground to suggest.

Along with Don's preparations, remember to tamp the area first *.

For color, browns, tans, greens, the earthy palette of colors brings a sense of intimacy, eye expansion (calm) and brings the garden 'forward'.
Whites, silvers, greys, blacks, all of these colors remove the viewer from the garden, narrowing the pupils inducing the eyes to close,.. (tension caused by high light refraction)
-this is closer to meditation, however, some like to meditate with their eyes open and merely dis-focusing without getting a tan on their retinas.

*, noting that the colors bring in or create distance, the amount of that 'sense' is adjusted by the height at which the color plane (gravel) is viewed (ie: Ginkakuji, would not work if the gravel was not raised to that height, as the angle of visual incedence causes a specific reaction of distance while opaguing the 'white' gravel to a neutral hue)
--meaning you have thickness or height to fine tune the composition, and in addition, this plane may be adjusted so that the foreground is higher than the background where the garden is causing further removal or distance.
or, the gravel bed is lower in the close view which causes a tilt bringing the garden in like a zoom lense -moreso when 'arriving - passing' the scene (standing) than when sitting. Once again the angle of visual incedence is important.

If you are unsure of what color, then build the garden, then collect samples of the gravels especially the 'fines'.
place or glue them on paper/cardboard (or buy paper that color).
Sit in front of the garden, and hold each sheet up below your chin, to lap area, just out of / below actual focus and view the garden. (research close view, items beneath your feet, felt not seen, however 'seen with')

Take special note of which color induces which reaction/response.
Try again over several days, several moods, make notes of emotive responses, consider different light strengths, day/evening, check angles, try standing, mix gravels, check if the emotion generated is different,..
etc.

amazing what a difference gravel selection makes. Biggest question is, intimacy with the garden or removal from the garden.

thoughts or questions on the techniques or ? Others? I'm sure others would have additional suggestions.
edzard

Hi Relly,
Very good advice from fellow members ,I have used limestone chippings in my Zen garden it is not too white and is a good shade of grey/white, the size is 8 to 10mm and is the best size for raking, take a look at my link below.
George.

Here is a link that might be useful: George's Japanese Garden

As usual- great advice from the regulars. I would add a small point which escaped my on my first effort. Keep this gravel area away from any type of tree (esp. weeping willows) that continually drops leaves, twigs, sprouts or other annoying debris. If you dont, you will be forever cleaning the gravel and it will lose its calming effect very quickly.

Cheers
Steve

Excellent ideas and advice! I appreciate it more than I can express.

As far as my prep work, I did tamp the area and laid the best landscape fabric I could find. Since the gravel area is not square, there is a lot of fabric overlap. I stapled all of it down so as to minimize the number of wrinkles and hold down loose ends. Sounds like I did it right.

I have been picking up samples of gravel to see it in the garden, but it has always been about a cup of gravel. Makes sense to get larger samples to get a better idea of how it will work. I like Edzard's idea of holding it below my chin. I am building a psuedo tea house/meditation deck. I have the deck completed with the roof to be completed at a later date. Since I do observe the garden from this platform, holding a tray of gravel will better enable me to see the impact on a larger persepective.

I do want the feel to be intimate. Since it is not a large garden, like George's, the perspective of angle is interesting...as far as having the close edge of the 'ocean' higher than the furthest edges. Thus far I have been playing with plant material and sizes as well as hardscape features to gain perspective. Doing this with the gravel makes perfect sense.

I have visited your website, George, and have really enjoyed it. While on a much more grand scale than what I am working on, the pictures have inspired me in the planning and design of mine. I can only wish to be able to do something like that...it is a great reference for me!

As far as maintenance...I know this is going to be higher maintenance. Most of my landscape is low maintnenance by design. I have a Japanese red maple which is intended to develop to form a canopy over a portion of the gravel, but other than that, the plan takes into account debris from plant material. Pulling weeds is therapy for me, but I think I have developed the size of the garden to the point of what I feel will be manageable for me. My biggest concern is a large sugar maple that gives me good shade. With that shade comes a lot of leaves in the fall and plenty of samaras in the spring!

Again, thank you for all your words of wisdom. I have printed your responses and will review them further over the weekend.

Really great advice from fellow members.
The thing that I would like to mention is drainage.
In the Janpanese stone gardens (Zen Garden)that I create for people I've have learn to install a simple drain system just under the barrier cloth. First after tamping the area for firmness. Mark drain lines parrell ever three feet and one line at the low end of the garden area. This one should be dug to the out side garden area making sure you have a positive drain. This is the one that the parrell drain lines will connect to. Next dig out drain lines approx. 5' wide and 6' deep remember dig drain ditches with a sloping grade of 1/4' every 10 feet as you dig to lowest area. Then place a 1' layer of drain stone in bottom of ditch. Now place corragated leach pipe (holes on bottom) in ditch conecting parrell lines with main drain line. Cover pipe with drain stone. Now you're ready for the barrier cloth.
I hope you find all the materials you need for your project. I was lucky to be in an area that has great stone dealer. But it took several searches and purchases to find a rake I felt does a great job in making the raked lines and is beautifully hand crafted. I finally found this rake at mooresmoonhutgardens.com, I believe. I'll check on that.
Good luck and enjoy.

Here is a link that might be useful: moon hut gardens

To me dry gardens are boring, or at least they become boring after awhile. They make for really great photos, but I wouldn't want one in my backyard.

Ray,
why would you wish to add drainage? What benefits does this have/offer, or answer what needs in the landscape?

bahamababe, if your site location requests a dry garden, then is not a dry garden a good solution? A major understanding that is necessary for people building gardens is to get away from the 'I want a----' garden and work with the 'what is the site solution' for this space, that becomes my garden.
Part of the efforts of this board are to get away from the collection of japonaise things way of gardening, and to get back to the real garden thought of providing useable site solutions.
Why would you suggest otherwise?
-put another way, a successful garden is one that answers needs rather than answering your whims, which may cause maintenance nightmares, if the needs of the site are not answered.
Whether you are bored or not is irrelevant, since, put yet another way, you would a boring garden designer if you did not find a solution that works within the structure of a dry garden...
--as is obvious, I do not support the low achievers gardening guild.
--the question, put another way, is why do you think your bored or not bored feelings are important? Are you more important than Nature?
-puzzled...
edzard

Describing describe people who may think along similar lines to bahamababe as belonging to the 'low achievers gardening guild' is hardly likely to encourage them to participate in the forum, is it?

Bahamababe -- Any garden can be "boring" if it lacks certain compositional elements.. a particular form/style doesn't automatically guarantee nirvana
There are plenty of hideous holes in the ground pretending to be ponds, as there are ill conceived cottage gardens, alpine yawneries, or Little Tuscany affectations. And some folk just love to encircle their lawns with annuals, or worse - rusting car bodies

I guess it all depends on what floats your boat stone ;)

Re Drainage: I have a hunch that Ray has read Isao Yoshikawa's 'Japanese Gardening in small spaces' :) .. where drains are installed under the gravel areas because the soil, after being tamped, is mortared directly ( to keep the 'shirakawa' granite in pristine condition) - but they didn't use weed mats back then

Jack

The reason drainge is important is because garden areas are sometimes constructed in lower areas to create the right feel of the the garden. Then once you dig out the garden area 4"-6" deeper for the stone, and tamp it for firmness. This reduces the ground ability to absorb water. You begin to create some what of a low area for the any rain water run off to collect in the stone. The under lying drain system keeps this water draining out and away from your stone garden. This helps keeps the stone from settling and tighting. And dries much quicker.
Ray

Here is a link that might be useful: Moon Hut Gardens

"I finally found this rake at mooresmoonhutgardens.com, I believe. I'll check on that"

.. a tad disingenuous wouldn't you say, Ray ? .. yes, send me a baker's dozen stat!

Jack

Sing it Julie - The shills are alive...

I've only built one small Japanese style garden . Was now 3 years ago . Time fly's . Took me a lot of walking and exploring to find stone , moss , boulders and spire like tall rocks and even small little rocks . I didn't buy materials except for 7 inches depth of crushed gravel for base with almost 2 inches stone dust on top and maybe a 4 to 5 inch layer of decorative gravel to be seen for finish grade .Same process used to lay pavers on driveway.
When it came to the gravel stage I was a little dumbfounded. So many choices. So I grabbed a few dozen burlap sacks that would hold approx. 5 gallon buckets worth of gravel. I recall choosing 15 bags of different types gravel. While assembling the garden my mind wandered to the gravels and somehow I just felt like emptying out a bag or two around a small portion of ocean like , planer birds eye view portions garden.

I would leave it there for a day or maybe just minutes after thinking ACK !! yuck. Since surface is tamped firmly its easy to place gravel back into bag..clean. I recall emptying same bag of gravel many times over period only one day !! Sometimes this was relaxing . No joke. empty bag gravel..play with it ..no pressure..you know ? No high expectations and time wasted on setting a 700 lb spire like rock and then later moving it one foot to the left and then realizing the tilt is needed 10 degrees more lean to the rear . Spreading gravel samples is equivalent of saying Ha no worries ..Time to have coffee, tea or snack..spread some gravel..sip tea eat a cookie . Choosing gravel samples is like icing on the cake with coffee break.

Took me a most of a month to assemble garden. Two weeks with days from morning to night. Other weeks were random days when I knew I was not mentally feeling that unseen passion that guides ones hands as if you simply grabbed a boulder with relentless passion !! rolling twisting and setting it wicked fast ..mind so sharp..focused and everything is being placed as if you were seeking something and time was being lost. you don't feel hunger or worries of normal work day. Night comes and your eyes still SEE !! and your mind instinctively views another dimension of what's mysteriously guiding your hands . When you feel that its passion.

I was constantly pouring a bag of gravel to check my grades from one island of boulders stones to another . Using a mason line like grid work occasionally just to make mental note if everything was of proper grade then take lines down. I tried to rely on instinct and skills of mechanic . Why I would remove mason lines often. 6 foot long level helped but mostly to screed the stone dust of unwanted footprints and dents from working . Sometimes I would use a couple hoses and FLOOD the whole garden only an inch or several inches deep to check the overall ocean scene. I did this during the moss laying stage . Let water drain overnight . Maybe take a day off following day after flooding it. Many breaks from building is good idea . Your work looks different when you come back after a days break. I would then mentally note the island 20 feet to the left looked silly for example .

Anyhow What I mean to say is have a dozen or more bags gravel each one weighing as much as you can carry in two arms . always use them in manner to check your gardens level by placing some on one shoreline of a rockery and on opposite shore and using mason line or long level to see if they meet proper elevation. Where you want the gravel to be finished height. Color , texture , feel of gravel will be found not while choosing a gravel..but while using it as a tool to distinguish grade level etc.

One regret I have is using a gravel that was size pea gravel but of a sandstone make. Comes from Delaware River Pennsylvania. Its somewhat porous and has a dull sound when struck with metal. Not like siltstones that ca nbe very dense and shiny. Anything like a soft limestone gets algae growing upon it in shade and anything soft porous seems lacking even if color hue seems appropriate.

I think what I am trying to express by using word" lacking" or "dull " is does the gravel have enough inner essence. A hardness. When that type material is wet by water there is a soft patina to it. Over cast days seem brighter with that type wet gravel. Same as seeing a new car where the designer bends the metal to reflect light so person looking goes wow that cars metal really looks neat. Hard to explain.

I like tan or gray gravels that have patina that is reserved and subtle . Polished already by rivers waters..Not crushed gravel by a machine . And when they are wet they have a shine . Sandstone and some limestones look lacking dull porous when wet. My garden was very small..around 15 feet long by 4 feet wide and tallest stone from surface garden reached maybe 4 feet high with 3 feet below ground . I would have licked shiny kind gravel with such small space. Since Landscape took up a lot of the oceans area . A soft dull gravel makes ocean look even less noticeable . Your Garden is very large ..so using a dull gravel seems ok in my mind..who wants a lot of bright shiny expanses on large garden. Cold be a bright white stone but its make is rather soft dull material..so it soaks in water and soaks in sound light ..so to speak.

emotionally the white gravel so pure and clean is not meant for me. I am not studied and knowing of Sutras and Buddhism and Japan. It seems to be reserved for when I feel I am on a path that is of utmost importance and urgency I am not lacking attention to keep on that path .When nearing end of that path I would use white gravel.

I like the muddy colors like a turbid shallow ocean where many tributaries of rivers from a Delta like Ganges , Nile or Amazon, Mississippi make waters tan, gray muddy . There is where my mind sees change and potentiality of disaster if your mind is not focused on wisdom's and learning's of those who went before you. From Murky depths rises the Lotus . I saw a lotus stems in a Painting below waters surface being held by an octopus;s tentacles ..some rising some lowered by octopus . I liked that ..muddy bottom..murky waters , potentiality of being bright wondrous flower atop waters surface. Islands of Paradise above.

White Gravel seems to me to denote there is a Master present , A nobility . Sense of learned person present . Maybe all the time or a guest but a teacher wise learned and of influence , power. Islands of Paradise and clear waters with lotus flowers . Hence use of white gravel.

Color of Gravel for me is simply obtuse thoughts like this . I would choose most humble , soft always a step below that of a color my teacher had . Even if that teacher was just photo from a book of Japanese Temples garden. I'd try to steer away from politics and religion of white gravels meaning in history and for tourism since I am myself a gawking tourist looking at books of Zen white gravel gardens . Not knowing anything what it means . If that white gravel was native to my region then maybe I could use it not fearing I was trying to copy books photos of Temples and Aristocrats gardens .

I'd save the best for the last garden I made. When I felt I reached a prime . Maybe that's when I would use a Pure White Gravel.

PS I ramble. So please excuse my rather unlearned and non informative approach.

Oh and I used a screen to screed out smallest gravels placed along coastal scene . Like 3 to 6 inch bands tiny gravel blending into normal blend . This made coastline look surreally real and in ratio to moss and little details of some boulders surface that looked like small grottos cave etc. I tamped whole gardens surface ..gravel was packed tightly. I could walk on it without making deep footprints . This was because I knew no one including me would keep it raked in patterns . Was like a clean slate. Felt better . Right. I didn't know what raked patterns meant at time ..still don't to be honest. So flat clean gravel surface tamped firm was fitting . Made shoreline of Landscape scenes crisp also..some mosses and parts clay like soil that met gravel got tamped too. Accident. What happened was a more natural transition from Landscape to gravel. Mossy shoreline grew even after tamped lower and it looked like estuaries of ocean..shallow green spaces same level as gravel. When I walked on the edges of Landscape with boots nothing compressed after that..was very hard firm . And soils wouldn't easily soften and enter gravel. After each tamping of shoreline going in further each time I removed gravel that got mushed in with soils ...replaced with clean gravel. Just to slow down progression of moss growing into ocean since garden was small.

Oh haha ..See ? I ramble hee hee. Plywood . Lots of it . Before assembling gardens scene . Well actually from very first day work. I set out maybe 15 sheets plywood as a material collection area . This was in front of the garden. I had no choice, was the only spot. So don't block view of work site like I did haha. Set aside majority material on expanse plywood. Then keep like 6 sheets plywood directly front edge garden. Each morning bring to this front row plywood materials needed without creating clutter. Each evening put back what wasn't used into proper groups on original sheets plywood . I sorted out Size ratio of Boulders into groups . Spires with tall steep perilous heights , slope like mountains and island looking mountains. anyhow everything was separated into groups . When I brought new material ( Rocks ) mentally I memorized every !! one..no joke. I could have found a stone 30 miles away , placed in truck ..drove to site and in 5 minutes know what group it belonged to. Same with mosses . there are mosses for sun, shade dry damp..thye are sensitive. Some are mounds so THICK they are like small mountains unto themselves and placed well are simply pleasing . Sometimes these are to special to ne close to a boulder..needing a whole foot or more apart from one. To display its character. Carpeting mosses . Well these are grouped . And I did this First before building the garden. whatever dies on the plywood I knew why and knew where NOT to place it in garden. Too sunny usually . Dappled sunlight crossing over moss like slow moving window can cook it fast.

When setting boulders ..most of all tall spire ones ..you need to make sure they are set in concrete so to speak. Dont move . Means alot of large stones jammed around base of spire stone. Garbage stones . On other sheets plywood were these stones for firming up base. Some were boulders .

Its clean way to work. Dolly wheels roll smoothly . Dont track mud into gardens base material after tamped. Rainy days you can work . Sometimes rainy days lend inspiration but being super clean on these days is key to feeling inspired for me. Sense of pride . Blankets were brought out onto one plywood sheet ..to roll boulders into place in garden or rap very familiar ones that were special when materials needed to be shuffled .I didnt have to clean rocks after planting them. They were mint ..wiht unriased lichen patterns not marred.

That little space 15 feet long by 4 feet wide took with an F350 Diesal Dumptruck...Full size bed in back.. 4 truckloads stone. Two being just spire like tall boulders . Other one was boulders and last one small rocks . Each load maybe 2 yards stone . Garbage stone for packing in tall stones not to move maybe another 2 yards stone misc sizes . Two Truckloads of Moss and ferns ..I sealed back trucks dump using doulbe layer tarp and filled it wiht 2 feet water ..Then collected mosses and ferns all day..filled back truck 3 feet deep..using milk crates not to compress materials . Large plastic crates for mounding mosses..cinder blocks wiht plywood to set large mounds landscape mosses 2 feet thick, 3 feet long 3 feet wide..slow process extraction and lifting carrying and loading unloading .Obviously end day when truck loaded I let water out to drive highway. I did this on rainy days only also. Plants lived .

And Truckload of Item four gravel 2 yards and one yard stone dust.. . Later on load decorative gravel.

Lastly I went back to places where I was allowed to remove plants and took one full truckload..3 yards of soils dug out by hand to match each plant I had. I figured if there is any relation to soil conditions I would match it..since I had wildflowers growing in moss that needed bacteria fungi for roots. Like Beach drops ? Indian Pipe..its a mono tropic flowering plant..bone white. It did fine. And some fern called rattlesnake fern?...looks like a tree ..tall clean 2 foot high firm stalk with three fronds growing off like branches in three directions . From middle came up the Cinnamon fern like spore stem .Reminded me of tropical trees Palms and such. With a messy fern thats truly twisted of nature and very low to ground like 5 inches tall with a trio of Rattlesnake fern above ? Looks like tropical jungle with windy coastal winds entering island tall Palms in orderly fashion yet not bending to the wind. Or as if a huge Storm week earlier sent waves into underbrush. Fun..play. Book said its not transplantable without symbiotic relationship with bacteria or fungi .I went GRRR NO WAY ..I like this fern..cant transplant it ? So on another plywood was soils kept covered and damp for that fern and you get idea. haha.

I played and had a lot of fun. I ramble like this ever since that one attempt at a garden . Was the fun.

One last memory. Make sure no septic line runs beneath garden..even if its solid pipe going to the fields hundred feet beyond garden . Or any such line . If it breaks its a lot work to remove landscape..replace one section pipe . Then re-assemble scene . Where I made that little garden ? No one knew where any pipes ran. No drawings whatsoever . 7 feet below that garden I made was one septic pipe layed over backfill along foundation house. Carpentry and masonry debris. I lost a crowbar poking around ..whoosh out of my hand. Over years that debris settled and septic pipe at joints opened ..leaked for who knows how many years. Garage foundation wall was moist always . the dripping waters from pipe filtered soils through debris making gaping underground chasms . I had to remove entire garden months after I built it. Dig down to footing house , remove construction debris and replace with clean fill . New pipes etc . re build entire garden.

Everyone said the garden was doomed ..no one would re build it . I went back and re built it . I have never seen it since. almost 3 years. Met someone at a Deli , Landscaper who take scare of the property and knew the garden. Said it looks like day I left it. Phew !!

Garden this size ..25 feet by 20 something feet ? I would take one year alone to find Two dozen boulders . Only half that to be used in Garden. At least 3 dozen rocks . Less than half that used near boulders . More like planer view rocks planted into moss near same level..break up moss. At least you have them in case.

Good way I learned after the fact to train my eyes as how Zen Kare San Sui style rocks are to be found ? Suiseki. And Penjing Gardens . Very small stones collected t obe displayed alone in a stand or as a group like model making of a landscape on small table . Look at Suiseki Stones . Mountain Stones. Look for the poetic stones. Power of Suggestion. Meaning they are more like abstract modern art . Lacking fine detail of a mountains surface but having the Golden proportions of natures structure. Golden rectangle , golden triangle...Fibonacci sequence. Like fingers ..3 segments follow Fibonaci sequence.So do mountains . These small details may be muted and blurred when using one ton Boulders but the proportions are instinctively felt. Feels RIGHT ..like MT Fuji feels right . Feels familiar .K 2 feels right . MT Everest feels right. Slope Mountain near me in Catskill Mountains near Ashokan reservoir feels right . Shapes islands feel right too. Is the scene being created through upheaval of islands ? Like Japanese Archipelago. Or are islands created as that of Guilon China ..old ocean floor that was up heaved 300 to 700 feet above sea level then the limestone was eroded through acidic ph waters and movements rivers .Making those perfect rounded hump like mountains like camels backs or tall spires in succession.

Think of what province of China or Japan you local stones can portray. Then pick a Story that is indicative of the regions landscape . A myth, legend , religious story , idyllic landscapes that create books like Greek Illyiad . But using Eastern flows concepts instead . So boulders overall composition looks like lets say a Famous Painterly Province of Japanese Island ...but some stones have a painterly image ..like an artist was using boulders literally as words. One boulder looks like a boat, another like a fish, another like a mountain but having same golden proportion lets say as MT. Fuji..the same slope triangle proportions . Suiseki is awesome for developing rocks as visual aid into story telling . Boulders of those large planer courtyard Zen Monastic gardens simply are blurry image of that art form. Like painting with ink brush onto paper that absorbs ink rapidly blurring the image, outline object ..ink spreading through fibers paper. Less Stones used in Large Garden !! more blurry and massive they can be but the Laws of Nature follow mountain making , or laws human skills and mechanics follows that of boat making ..Painterly Rock looking like boat should look sea worthy..not like its going to flip over. Thats Suiseki again. Stones should be able to balance , stand on their own..have good flat base. Those flat bases are rare . S oyou can display stone on table top garden or alone on a wooden tray . Courtyard garde nboulders being planted into ground need bottom portrusion to anchor them. Sometimes a boulder has perfect painterly scene but is too flat bottomed to set firmly ..you pull your hair out.

. If stone has painterly image only on top half look for that. For example a 900 lb boulder 3 or 4 feet diameter might have what looks like perfect mountain top on half a foot height of one face upon boulder. Its like putting a rubber band around boulder and moving it in an even manner , level like water rising up boulder until you SEE a mountains Golden proportion. that's the planting level of boulder in reverse . Moving rubber band up boulder . Rather than setting boulder down into ground guessing how deep. Guess you could use tied surgical rubber bands used on arms for raising blood vessels . . I just use eyes .Never tried what I said . Laughing.

Now I know why I stopped posting here haha.. I truly ramble. My bad . : )

Rick

--perhaps good reasons Ray for the drainage, however, in my case I don't tamp enough to make it a driveway. Rather i use the basin as a reservoir for water that encourages roots of trees to grow into it, which works very successfully during drought periods along with eventual weaning from the sprinkler system.
-I presume it depends on the area you live in.
--fyi, adding your commercial website, which sells things is breaking the rules of this board, and its Spikes world.

Herb,.. shrug.
I guess you've never watched an episode of Madd magazine and the short skit of 'Lowered Expectations',.. me thinks the duck needs more humour in life...

--Shall we take a public opinion poll of how many people found the post insightful, beneficial, educational, useful, etc., to the original poster? And how many would like to have more of the same opinions posted?
--and 'how' is one to respond to that post?? but with humour and a query for elaboration of their thought process regarding the high cost of such 'eventual' boredom.

-:. I did try to use the humour to bring the thread back on a track that would allow illustration of several needed understandings that would stem from such an opinion.
chicken is not understanding the duck again... you want me to .. what.. ?apologize for asking for clarification, while setting the LA Guild free to come out of the closet?
still very puzzled...

Edzard -

The duck is not entirely lacking in appreciation of humour. For example, it is still chuckling (if that's what ducks do) over the JOJG's description of one expert's Japanese gardening knowledge as 'little more than that of an advanced tourist' - especially when the description must be applicable to more than just that one expert.

But to come back to the topic of raked gravel, my own opinion is (hold your breath everybody) that raked gravel and well-manicured lawn have so much in common that in many instances - note I don't say 'all instances' - the two could be interchanged without much altering the character of the garden.

Herb

Herb ---

I guess one person's humor is merely offensive to another. I can't think of anything I've seen in JOJG that resembles humor. Or do you simply mean YOU found it humorous (somehow...), and not that it was intended by the editors as humor?

If, as members of very similar Western cultures, we can be so far apart in our sense of what is humorous, just think how mixed up things can get when you bring together very different cultures. To get a taste of this, check out "Traditional Chinese Humor: A Study in Art & Literature," by Henry Wells.

As a subset of taste (in general), I guess we must allow for all sorts of humor.

And woe to the person who has none, since some oriental person once said, "Seriousness is a sign of imperfect mastery." Does anyone know where that quote came from?

Lee

...another thing, Herb ---

You recently criticized Edzard earlier in this thread, saying:

"Describing describe [sic] people who may think along similar lines to bahamababe as belonging to the 'low achievers gardening guild' is hardly likely to encourage them to participate in the forum, is it?"

Referring to people as "advanced tourists" is hardly encouraging either, is it? And particularly when your comment contains a slight so clearly intended for Edzard. Regardless of one's brand of humor it never seems too smart to laugh too hard at the monkey's butt.

Lee

shrug, let us let the others speak for themselves, while we continue to refine our mutual humours...

grass and garvel, have long been interchangable, and one derived from the other as a natural shoe-in.. nothing to hold ones breath over. The road, the drive are often seen as ocean, river, means of traverse that happens on level expanses, while simultaneously the lawn is often removed later and gravel placed when the kids no longer need the grass and mowing has become tedium.

At the same time, the calm of a level area is useful as a design technique that uses the horizontal opening of our eyes to best benefit. Vertical elements with points cause anxiety, horizontals induce calm & reduce blood pressure... a brick plaza does the same as does a foyer, or any other level area. The only question in design is what is the appropriate medium that should be used to best express the space and clients needs. With the followup of how bright and glaring or how light absorbant the medium should be.

This goes back to bahamababes unthought through response that would have ended with the query if flat spaces are boring? - and the observation that bb is a person needing more anxiety than others, or needs less calming than others... whatever..

-- thanks, no slight taken. As a chicken I felt it worthwhile to adapt and wear a ducks back as outer clothing.
:)
edzard

Lee,

There's another take on Chinese humour, in one Lin Yutang's books. I think (though I'm not sure) that it was 'The Importance of Living'.

He claimed that the Chinese have by far the greatest sense of humour in the world - much better, he said, than even the English. On the other hand, he assessed the Germans and Japanese as having very little sense of humour......

Herb

I read somewhere that it was the Norwegians who possessed the greatest sense of humor, followed closely by the Andeans and the hill tribes of Sumatra... but then, another survey had gay men and Jewish mothers occupying those second and third slots..

Jack

Jack,

Maybe we should submit this entire thread to a Norwegian. My guess is that he'd suggest that Ibsen could have written a play about it .- just think of the profound dramatic effect to be achieved from the expression 'advanced tourist' and the various serious emotions that it would raise in the audiences.......

Herb

Herb -- My blood is rushing with catatonic anticipation at the likelihood that Norwegian-by-proxy, Ingmar Bergman, will direct the film version..

Jack

Bahama said she thinks dry gardens are boring. Does that make her a thoughtless fool? Absolutely not. She might be right.

Herb ---

You've mentioned my favorite part of "The Importance of Living"!

Here's the rest of Lin Yutang's ranking of various nationalities (from pp. 6 & 7) (I especially love the part about high idealism plus no humor being connected to fascism. Kind of reminds me of something).

He assigns these qualities on a scale of 1 to 4, where 1 is very little and 4 is the maximum:

R = sense of reality (or realism)
D = dreams (or idealism)
H = sense of humor
S = sensitivity

So, according to Lin Yutang:

The English = R3D2H2S1
The French = R2D3H3S3
The Americans = R3D3H2S2
The Germans = R3D4H1S2
The Russians = R2D4H1S1
The Japanese = R2D3H1S1
The Chinese = R4D1H3S3

Clearly, he has a rather bleak view of the Japanese. But then most Chinese of his generation felt that way.

I note that Lin thinks you and I have the same rather anemic capacity for humor, but he gives me a slight edge in the sensitivity department.

Lee

Lee,

We're getting onto dangerous ground, but It would be interesting to apply Lin's assessments to our various posters - so far as we can make links.

Maybe the different combinations account both for the various approaches to Japanese gardening that we see in this forum - and for the spats that flare up between them?

Do the S ratings rather than the H ratings explain the reactions to 'advanced tourism'?

Herb

Some of you may think dry gardens are boring. The obvious problem is, you are using gravel when you should be using garvel. Now that Edzard has let it slip 9 or 10 postings up, this highly guarded professional secret of garvel will have to be shared! The monkey is out of the -er- bag.

Garvel, known in high professional circles as "0-garvel-san", was brought from China through Taiwan and Mongolia by Baptists priests in early Neat-o period. Used only by royalty to design their magic gardens, it is very hard to find.

From now on, try using garvel, then (if you are able to find this rare and valuable material), dare to tell me dry gardens are boring. You cannot! Now everyone can have exciting, perfect gradens!

Affectionately, : )
The goose

RckyM21, I really enjoyed the walkthrough of your garden construction. Post some pictures?

Don.

If anybody is eager to obtain this exotic & desirable material, it seems that it can actually be supplied -

Click here

Herb

.

....goose, still chortling!!!
and of important note is ::
"Underlayer:
Make the underlay fast and even. If it contains a lot of clay, then drainpipes could be a good idea to install."
--Herb and Ray must also being playing petanque
edzard

Hello from Melbourne, FL. This is my first post, about what size gravel to use in a Japanese Garden.
I'm also in the process of about starting one in the front entrace courtyard. This is what I found some years ago:

The following is from the Brooklyn Botanic Garden Record, Plants & Garden 1961-62 (new series vol. 17 no. 4)
The "Sand Gardens" Of Japan
...there are centuries-old "abstract" gardens in Japan in which sand or gravel are used more frequently, because it can be raked in meaningful patterens.
In constructing the replica of the Ryoanji Temple Stone Garden at Brooklyn Botanic Garden, the gravel problem required a satisfactory solution. Washed gravel cannot satisfactorry be raked into surface patterens. Crushed gravel of uniformly-sized particles can be raked into patterens, but if it it is to hold the pattern and at the same time present a satisfactory appearance (texture, light and shadow, etc.), it is necessary to combine two or three sizes of gravel particles.
After several experiments, it was found that poultry grit from the North Carolina Granite Corporation, Mt Airy, NC came closet to giving the effect obtained by the Japanese in their Ryoanji Garden in Kyoto.
Of the many size combinations we tested, one of the best proved to be:
2 parts "Grower" size
1 part "Turkey" size
1 part "Turkey Finisher"
The different sizes were thoroughly mixed, applied evenly over a flat surface, and raked into a the "wavelet" pattern.
The mixture can be recommended both for texture and holding quality. The wavelet pattern holds its form for several weeks, depending on the weather.
While mixtures with a higher percentage of small grit held the pattern very satisfactory, they were chaclky in appearance and did not resemble the orginal Ryoanji mix. --- Landon H. Winchester, (Assistant Horticulturist, Brooklyn Botanic Garden).

I added the following:
http://www.ncgranite.com/gritmailer.pdf
grower: 3/32 - 3/16 inch (2.3813 - 4.7625 mm)
turkey: 5/16 - 7/16 inch (7.9375 - 11.1125 mm)
turkey finisher: 7/16 - 5/8 inch (11.1125 - 15-8725 mm)

Here is a link that might be useful: Gran-i-grit broucher

Hi: And thank you for the info. regarding poultry grit.

I'm just beginning my garden and am concerned about the weight of gravel. I want to be able to use an electric leaf blower to clean off the gravel; therefore, I don't want something too light that will blow away. I live in a rainy clime and won't have any plants in my garden.

Yesterday, I visited a gorgeous garden at Bloedel Reserve

http://bloedelreserve.org/

and decided that their gravel (perhaps a blend of limestone and poultry?), is too light. Less maintenance trumps beautifully sculpted waves in the stones.

Can you use a leaf blower to clean off the combination listed above?

Thanks

Hi, this is actually only my second time participating in a forum (the first was 5 minutes ago) and it is amazing how passionate everyone is here about their gardens. We also use a poultry grit/crushed granite and it is always funny when we share this bit of info with our clients. My personal preference is to go a little heavier on the turkey (larger size) as it holds better.....and if you do not like the look of it, you can always recycle it and go into the poultry business!

DT