I am sure this is just rambling rather than concrete design principles but one thing that helped me in the construction rather than the theory behind it was seeing a Jg as a landscape and not as a garden. By this I mean something like making a likeness to the hills and valleys and streams rather than a showplace for plants, instead a miniaturized and idealized landscape . I think that an enclosure is essential too as I don't think that having raked gravel and a lantern in the corner of an otherwise conventionally Western garden works. So to get the ball rolling I would say that a Japanese garden should be undulating and enclosed.

laag-Amen to HOW. I think that Ink has offered a good start by defining a characteristic that would be incorporated in the garden. I offer that the first step is to define the area available for the garden.
Next would be to identify the vantage point for viewing (in the case of a small area) or the path and destination (again for viewing) for a larger area.
Now it gets harder. We need to define the subject to be viewed or the experience generated by the garden. Ink offers miniature or idealized landscapes. I like that and it approaches the HOW.
I look forward input from the forum to advance this thread. I think that it would create interest and enthusiasm for people to install Japanese gardens in their landscape.

Well, I was trying to get to practical rock arranging in the "animism" thread but it seems to be dying, so I'll go here too :-). Stevega mentions above to "define the area available". I remember when I hired a Japanese landscaper to turn the front yard of my first house into a Japanese-style garden (this was back before I had the courage to step out and try on my own). He drew a quick schematic of the house and front yard, outlined where the drains were, and said, "give me a couple days to think about it". So I do think defining the area is a first step. To elaborate a bit, I think one of the first essentials is to know well how the sun sets across your yard, and where the predominantly sunny and shady areas are. (If you want to design a tea-style garden area, for instance, you'll need shade for the appropriate type of plantings). And notice the high spots and low spots in your space. High spots in a corner (either present or built up manually) may suggest a future waterfall area :-). Drain-gutter areas, as I mentioned, can be used to develop a small "river", etc.
Any ugly areas you want to cover up, screen with bamboo, block with dense planting, etc.? How about borrowing some neighbor trees for "borrowed scenery" (tm)?
I'll throw out I remember the section about developing a corner area of yard space in the Engels et al book "Japanese Touch for Your Garden" suggestive for somebody going about building a small layout.

Also, I agree with my good pal Inky that trying to integrate a Japanese-style section (maybe a corner) of yard with a Western garden around it (growing veggies, flower garden, etc.) may not work out too well. Enclosure is needed.

Ink is the only one on the subject that I'm trying to get discussion going on. Basic layout stuff, or whether I want a tea house. It is composition and design elements.

You can talk all day about rocks coming alive. If you don't know how to make them come alive, you're not going to get living rocks.

I'm not trying to make rocks come alive. I have designed and built lots of gardens that are similar to Japanese Gardens. I don't really want to call them JGs simply because I am not Japanese, have not built one in Japan, and have very little interest in the Japanese culture (social studies is not my bag, nothing against the Japanese). I use a lot of design strategy that yields certain results that are similar to those that JGs achieve.

I'm interested in discussing these and the strategies others who get these results use. I don't feel like writing a lot without interacting with others that are on the same page.

laag writes: "You can talk all day about rocks coming alive. If you don't know how to make them come alive, you're not going to get living rocks."

Agreed. To do that, however, if one is trying to create the effect of a Japanese rock arrangement, it makes sense to know the basic shapes and how they are typically combined to create a dynamic arrangement. We don't care about the symbolism ("three buddhas", etc), no. But without discussing the basic rock shapes as Japanese see them, good luck in your discussion on "design composition".
Shrubs are another basic element. For a "rolling hills" effect, one simply must deal with the basics of learning how to prune O-karikomi style. I don't care if people want to get away from Japanese terminology, but good luck without discussing this style of pruning.

Basic cloud-pruning techniques for pines, yews, holly and so on are crucial Japanese design elements. If we don't discuss Japanese pruning techniques, we're going nowhere.

In short, I see no reason not to take the JoJG approach that pruning and rock arranging are fundamental skills.
If Inky and laag want to discuss composition among themselves, fine with me, but good luck if you ignore some basic skills of Japanese pruning and rock shapes.
I don't care how good you guys think your composition skills are (and they may be very good), if you don't discuss crucial Japanese pruning techniques, you're fooling yourselves trying to "imitate" this style.
Jim "over and out"

Okay, Laag, my first suggestion is to add a book to your library published in 1886, revised in 1912 and constantly reprinted by Dover and available online. LANDSCAPE GARDENING IN JAPAN by Josiah Conder. It covers and illustrates with simple line drawings all aspects of Japanese gardening. Yes, there is some history. Yes, spirituality is touched on in the book minimally. A very nice chapter with drawings explaining stones, their placement and the importance of understanding masculine(tall rocks) and female(short and lower) rock placement. This chapter alone is worth the book price. Once studied you should feel very comfortable setting rocks (or single rock) groupings whatever the terrain.

I find it difficult to discuss how one goes about designing a Japanese garden as each is site specific. There are so many approaches. There are some rules to be followed; one of them is to pay close attention to scale. Sorry, for me it is an inner design process based on a great deal of study over the years. This is an art form not learned overnight!

Hmmm, I thought I had posted this before, but it seems to have gotten lost in a black hole...so I'll try again. Apologies if this gets posted twice.

I've attached a link to a brief commentary by the late, great Dr. Koichi Kawana, designer of many public gardens around the U.S., on the particular aesthetics of the Japanese garden. While he may use more Japanese terminology than suits some on this forum, I believe it may be wise to sometimes sit back, keep still, relax, and let a true pro discuss the design principles one is trying to achieve in this style of garden :-)))) If you want to Westernize his concepts, fine, have at it. But at least keep the principles in mind.

Excellent comments, Nandina. I like you already, although the feeling might not be mutual :-). I agree that talking about specific elements pretty much depends on the site and a lot of prior contemplation. But we can certainly talk about general rules for composition.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kawana talks aesthetics

Thank you for the reference Nandina.

I have come to the conclusion that either no one wants to or no one has the ability to discuss the subject.

Jimbo, you have not said a direct thing about placement of anything, just references to philosophy and culture. You have said nothing directly about rock shapes for purposes of design discussion. You are doing what most people discussing JGs do. You seem to try to make it some mystical thing that only few can comprehend and therefore no one is worthy of the discussion. You seem to want to be seen a member of the enlightened society.

Do you have a clue on how to build these things? Can you place a rock or merely toss out Japanese cliches? Can you put a rock formation together? Can you describe what you do or did? Can you tell anyone how you do anything? If you can, why won't you do it in without burying in PuPu platter for six?

Are you an enlightened philosopher, or do you know something about putting together a JG?

You can't wish these things together for it to be an actual built garden. At some oint the rock is placed, it is turned, and it is manipulated. It is joined in composition with other rocks, with soil, with plants, and with all that is around it. For that to happen, someone has to decide which way that particular rock will sit, how much soil will be behind it, what plant will go next to it ..... that is long after understanding why your doing it.

We can bring rock placement down to a level that your dad would appreciate Andrew and I say this with the utmost respect, rocks should not be placed without consideration for how the rock was found, (Ricky who used to post here is a poet about this stuff) but let's keep it practical: the strata of a rock tells some one in tune with such things (like father laag) how to place it. The rock determines this, the designer recognises the signs and the rock gets put in the right place.

laag writes,
"Do you have a clue on how to build these things? Can you place a rock or merely toss out Japanese cliches? Can you put a rock formation together? Can you describe what you do or did? Can you tell anyone how you do anything? If you can, why won't you do it in without burying in PuPu platter for six?"

Haha
Pupu platter for six, I like it :-)
I don't care to get all defensive and try to counter your questions, it really doesn't bother me one way or the other. I've already mentioned many times on various posts I've posted a couple quick pond pics for everyone to see, I'm certainly not hiding anything (unlike some "professionals" here who can't seem to come up with a public portfolio ). I started from stratch and turned my backyard into a garden; I don't use the word "Japanese garden" per se (which is presumptuous), but certainly an imitation of one. It's a hobby for me.
So yes, I do my own planting, rock arranging, i.e., work. Which brings up an interesting story...
When I first moved into my current house, it was new and there was no fencing yet. Great opportunity to bring in some large boulders. I didn't care to rent a backhoe and haul these one ton+ rocks myself, so I hired a local well-known "professional" (tm) landscape designer to haul in just the big rocks. We toured some other sites he developed and he did very competent work, although none of these had Japanese motiffs. At any rate, I would do everything else myself, and I can (and did) lift and move several-hundred pound rocks. But I needed him to lay down the big rocks for a natural-looking pond as well. I instructed him where and how I wanted these placed, but unfortunately, I work full time and had to leave him with just my instructions. Well, I get home at the end of the day and he had laid some of my pond stones, sure enough, although to my chagrin he didn't know how to do what I had envisioned. He had resorted to black flat flagstone to build the edges, with only a couple large boulders scattered around (you can see some of this from the pics). Not exactly what I wanted, but the work was done...I decided to live with it and make the best of it. (something about "charging me more" to re-arrange also helped the decision).

Moral of the story: just because someone is a "professional landscaper", it doesn't mean much to me per se in this context. You'll excuse me when you guys throw around the word "landscape developer" and I'm not suitably impressed just with that...I know how ignorant the average American landscape professional is concerning Japanese design elements, it worried me even before I hired this guy just for big rock hauling, but I just wish I had been home. (Another day, I stayed home while he laid some big boulders for a sanzon arrangement, and fortunately I could direct the placement a little better).

The reason I keep harping on knowing Japanese aesthetics is directly concerned with this story. When some of you guys want to move away from terminology and so on, fine, but when a "professional" like Inky (and I'm not trying to pick on him, I actually think he's pulling my chain mostly) argues with me on design elements such as gaudy ornaments, and wonders how seasonal color fits in with Japanese subdued aesthetics in general, I get a little concerned.
These are basics. I didn't make any of this up...

As for discussing composition arrangements, go ahead, we HAVEN'T HEARD ANY IDEAS FROM YOU EITHER. I see a big problem with a mainly text format, unless you guys want to post a lot of pics. There's no other way to talk about it meaningfully. Also, since the basic shapes of rocks have been discussed in numerous books, along with basic placement designs (adequately or not), I'm not sure why we need to re-invent the wheel here. You'll need to convince me with examples that stray from what numerous books have already pointed out. Most of this stuff is intuitive anyway. One tries various rock placements, and most don't work. Finally, after a lot of trial and error, the rocks look natural in a particular setting. Good luck putting that on paper.

Andrew, I would normally e-mail you with what I have to say but my conclusion; that we are not going to achieve anything here, needs to be in the public domain. Jim has an agenda which, trying to be kind, it is best we don't get involved in. I appreciate your unique way of approaching how to understand Japanese gardens but we are going to have to let it go. Another occasion will arise and you know that you and I share mutual respect.

Agreed, let's drop any more of this discussion.
(I'm as happy this is public domain as you guys are; let the statements be evident).
I'm going back to what I came back on here for in the first place, and that is to enjoy other folk's gardens, some of which people are posting with little feedback so far.
I'm pleased to see people showing their pics again, reminds me of some of the old days when this forum actually was fun to be on.

I am by no means an expert at Japanese Gardening, far from it. I have put together a public garden with many Japanese influences and I call it a Japanese Garden because it is simpler to explain when I take visitors through. I do explain that it is not authentic, but rather my interpretation of a Japanese STYLE garden.

To get to basics, it is long and narrow, maybe 300 feet long and 50 feet wide. One long side is bordered by a canal. Across this canal is a condominium, that although not ugly, is certainly no prize winner style wise. Also across the canal is a vehicle storage lot. Ugly. What I have done is to plant a podocarpus hedge to screen the ugly view, but the condo was a different story. I have many large existing bamboos that gracefully screen high, so that you can see the canal, but not too much of the condo.

I used many limestone boulders because they are native to the area (South Florida). I think that Japanese style of boulder/rock arrangements have many lie flat and stable, but also a few at odd angles that look like they just rolled down the hill and haven't come to complete rest yet. I did not use this style for a couple reasons: one is that , being a public garden unstable rocks pose a safety problem with kids (and adults) climbing them. The second reason is that it doesn't fit the flat caprock form very well. The third reason is that it imparts a restless sense to the garden when I am shooting for tranquility.

The second long side of the garden is completely screened by Tiger Grass, a tall (6'+) ornamental. There are a few large trees that remain, live oak and Peltaphorum that give shade. These large trees I will not shape but will only prune them according to arboriculture best practices. I am trying to hone my skill at pruning the smaller trees and have purchased Hobson's "NIWAKI" which looks interesting.

I can give more info later if anyone is interested.

Jerry

Jerry, I hope this might help with your boulder placement. The Japanese gardens I have seen with upright stone arrangements would not cause a hazard for the public because you should bury at least one third of the boulder. Stability is key in creating the calm one feels in a Japanese garden. All of your boulders should be placed with one third of the stone buried. This gives the boulder the appearance it has been there a very long time. And making the garden appear AGED is highly recommended. Also freshly broken, scratched, or otherwise marred stones from shipping and placement are discouraged. If the boulder has lichens or moss this again shows age and is highly desirable. Using local material and plants are recommended. Just be sure to try and find boulders that blend into the surroundings and are not strong colors. (red, bright orange, ect.>

Also when creating a path you can change the material underfoot at a point where you want to draw attention to a certain view. This subtle change will subconsciously cause the viewer to see what you want them too. Again stability is key, if your path causes one to feel careful for fear of tripping or falling you have lost the tranquility you desire. Or have a small alcove in the path with a point of interest view revealed.

Laag, since you have a great thread going I hope this helps by giving reasons why many of the stone placements I see by those attempting to create a Japanese style garden look like rocks sitting on top of the ground and not part of the earth or natural landscape. I have made so many mistakes its not funny, but I am learning and would love to see this thread succeed.

So now we know that we need to see our surroundings and decide what views we wish to incorporate and which ones we will screen. And enclosure is desirable. This can be achieved with plant material or fencing. Would our surroundings tell us the type of garden that would be best for the location. A tea garden has different needs apposed to a stroll garden. Should we decide which hypothetical garden we are designing and then go from there????????? Or just use general Japanese Garden techniques????

Again great thread.

Cheers Jando

Thanks Jando.

In "my" garden (actually the publicly owned Deerfield Beach Arboretum) I would consider it a stroll garden. But I do have several paths that lead off into more contemplative areas. One is a zen garden, with a keystone flagging leading a meandering trail to it. Leading away from the zen garden is a boulder pathway where you walk atop the flat caprock boulders through at least 4 differnt species of bamboo, plus a dwarf black olive, a little gem magnolia, black ming aralia, and a dragon tree.

Across from this is our Azumaya, that everyone calls a Tea House (yes I know that is not correct). Beside the azumaya is a dry streambed of rounded river rock that cascades down to the canal.

Because this Japanese garden is in an Arboretum, we try to have many unique and unusual trees and plants that seem to fit the Japanese theme, but are not usually seen or are rare. The backbone of the J garden is a collection of about 20 different bamboos.

Jerry

"Should we decide which hypothetical garden we are designing and then go from there" good point and one I tried to address in the thread that stevega started as a knock on from this one. Is it an ideal that we lust after? If so perhaps a photo would serve us well.