pops

try this place

http://www.farmtek.com/

I have their tree dolly / two wheeler and I haul rock, but I doubt that it will handle 500 pounders. Its good as an all-around dolly but it is not built as heavy as the professional variety.

Also, I have moved a lot of rock with it (maybe up to about 200 lb) and ya gotta watch out for run away - it's very hard to control on hills even with my son helping (impossible to pull up hill)

Now that I am geezer I am looking at these or cheeper variations thereof:

http://www.toolfetch.com/tools/FB1000.html

http://www.countryhomeproducts.com/twoStepInquiry.aspx?Name=FieldBrush2Step

I have moved very large rocks with a block and tackle, also with a come-a-long, but the best thing I found was using an old car hood as a skid. Roll the rock on the hood and its 1000% easier to move. I had a hand crank type cable winch on the back of flat bed truck. Had no problems winching 500 pound rocks on the hood up 2x12s to get them in the bed of the truck.

I rented a rock dolly from the local rental store. I liked it so much I bought it from them for $300. It is 30 inches wide with tires larger than a wheelbarrow and handles anything I can get on it. Sometimes it takes two people, especially on
hills. Sliding rocks on a piece of channel steel works for short distances. Before I retired I used to back up to rocks in a quarry and slide them down into the truck on the steel. Balancing is the tricky part. In this way I was able to load rocks that were unobtainable without a front end loader.
Two people, each with a bar, working together, can roll surprisingly large rocks into place with a minimum of effort. Note: minimum effort is a relative thing here and teamwork is of the utmost importance.

I spent a (ridiculously) large amount of time researching this, too. At least I found something I like, the Mighty Cart. Seems hard to find; I got one at
http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID4789397P2832912-Wheeled-Goods/Tree-Dollies/RBM88021.aspx
It's a monster--it's much bigger than it looks in that picture, more like this one:
http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/view_catalog_page.asp?id=6652
I also saw a more expensive one, designed just for rocks:
http://www.pondsaway.com/rock.htm
I saw that several people liked using truck hoods from junkyards.
I asked a similar question on the tool shed forum:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tools/msg0909503423164.html

I have several 2 x 12 boards I use to slide rocks from location to vehicle. A double pulley with bull rope gets them up slopes and gets the big ones moving. Once moving, they slide well on the wood and are not damaged. At the truck, I use a portable tripod. It is three steel tubes 10 feet long that slide onto steel tabs welded to a triangle. The triangle has a pulley with steel cable and a crank attached to one leg. On a regular pick-up, remove the tailgate if you are sliding large rocks directly up the boards.

DonPylant- can you elaborate more on your tripod??? Pipe size, Sch 40, Sch 80????, how much does it weigh, welding tips, etc.....

I am getting info together so I can build a tripod for my own use.

FYI, in these parts folks use a 3 part flat braided sling to move rocks around. The advantage is that the sling has less of a tendency to roll on you once in the air. Kinda visualize a ponytail wrapped around a stone under load.

Michael

Much appreciate all the info, advice, and knowledge.

I'm well on my way to procuring a 1st CL (?) used auto hood, and a heavy duty dolly/cart.

Any specifics on the cable, come alongs or systems that some of you use?

And I too would like to know more about the tripod, bull rope (specs), pulleys, etc. that are involved. And do you move your truck under the tripod (carefully), which is holding the large rock in a sling, and then lower the rock into the truck bed!?

Not being a metalurgical engineer, I found out about repeatedly stressing metal the hard way....continuing to use my tail gate for leverage....flip to the tail gate and lift...and it's now in the shape of a V.

I've made a ramp of sorts using 3/4" plywood with 3 2x8's for support...to move, shimmy larger rocks up this 'ramp'.

I guess I could flip it, drill a hole (secure with some metal bracketing?) at one end, attach the bull rope (specs?) and a winch/pulley system to the trailor hitch, to pull rocks close to the truck-where it can't go?

thanks again.

Since I need to use it tomorrow (not raining!), I will set the tripod up and take pictures. You can see how to properly abuse a 1/2 ton toyota. How do you display pictures in this forum?

The 1" bull rope is for my antique double pulley, not for the tripod. The tripod uses simple aircraft cable like a come-along.

As for lassoing the rocks, I use 1" flat nylon tie-down straps on smaller specimens and 4" tree-straps for larger boulders. Some slip happens when the load is first applied, but between the straps and the wooden boards, there is little damage to the stones.

Advice: If you have that perfect stone, cushion it after loading because if you don't, Murphy will throw on his brakes in front of you and you will chip off the surface/moss/lichens on the most prized surface! Oh if I would only follow my own advice more often....

Nachodaddy, I had a great plate of nachos for lunch today - what are Fridays for anyway? However, visual of the ponytail made my hair hurt! (No I don't have a ponytail). I think we are referring to the same type of 4" nylon sling strap. Usually green or yellow and have flat loops sown into each end?

Re: Using the personal truck. Yes, pops1, my tailgate is not easy to close anymore. If you have a truck liner, do not take it out if you have a fragile stomach. What you thought you were protecting, you were only covering up. Speaking of stomach, I have to go take a prilosec for my nachos at lunch.

DonPylant-what I was referring to was actual wire cable, three strands of flat cable, woven like a ponytail with loops on each end.

I am not sure what the weight limit is for 4" nylon strap. Can you elaborate on what you consider a "large boulder" ?

Concerning posting pictures, I have an account at Photobucket that I put pictures in and then I provide a link to that account. It's free and pretty easy.....

Michael

Hi Micheal.
tripod:
if you are going to use steal pipe , you need minimum of 12 feet long pipe and 1/8 of thick to 1/4". you can dril holes one feet below from top of pipe. use 1/2 long bolt and use two nuts, make it sure bolt do not lose nut. you need also we called "oni gami" short (about 2feet) cable which has both end looped. since you use onigami and chain hoist to lift boulder, 10 feet pipe or logs do not give you enough clearance to load onto truck or tariler. If you can use trailer , it is much easer than loading onto truck bed, tailer bed is much lower than truck bed. U_haul has open utilty traier for $29.00 per day . most time, I use triler to trans port boulders. My tripod are 14 and 16 feet long. I use hichory. Hichory is stronger than oak, when you over loaded, Hickory will give you enought time to avoid accident. I use galvinized 1/4 inch cable 24~5 feet long to tie three hickory logs togather. ( you need to know how to tie correctly)to lift boulder. I have 3/8" cable 6 feet to 14 feet, 6' 8' 10 ' 12' 14' long. 7/16 diameter cable, I have 6 to 14 feet long . 6' 8' 10 ' 11' 12 ' 13' 14' and 1/2 inch diameter cables for large boulder. and few other hadwears .
you need to work with exprienced people at least 3 ~4 times befor you handle boulder with tripods your self. if you set wire cable wrong way, boulder will shift.
car's hood will work. 2x10 board will work.but you should know your limit too.
Please work safly..................yama

Yama Sensei;

Thank you very much!!!! Missed you for a while but I am glad you are back!!!! I look forward to your wisdom in the future.

Michael

How about a rock movin conference @ my place. I have thousands of tons of great licen/moss coverd bolders just beggin to be moved?

Everyone gets a boulder and I will supply the venison stew and red wine.

Are there extra concerns when you place the boulders in/around a pond? For instance, using liner, should the pond be filled with water first so the liner won't tear? Should certain tools, such as a tripod, not be place on liner? Should there be a concrete footing under the liner for large boulders? Can rocks be moved/rolled slightly once on the liner, or do they need to be placed exactly in the correct place? Any other concerns/warnings? Thanks.

what kind of liner?? what is 'large boulder' ? ....... edzard

Ah, yes, sorry, 'large boulder' for me is probably a lot smaller than it is for you. I am concerned about stone anywhere from 0.25 to 1.5 tons. In my personal situation, I am constructing a pond with EPDM rubber liner that will hold around 8000-9000 gallons, along with a 30-foot stream. I will have several strong young men moving stones that I will purchase and have delivered on pallets from a local stone yard. I much prefer larger stones, and am trying to determine what the largest size boulders are that I can safely move and place in this situation, what techniques/tools to use, and how to create safe support for them. I recently bought the Mighty Cart referred to above. I will need to move the stones about 100 feet over a slight downhill slope and safely position them on the EPDM liner. Thanks very much!

Mark.. is it too late to change the liner to a weldable HD? ...edzard

Yes, I jumped the gun a little bit on buying the liner.

hmmmm,.. ok.
problems:
when impacted the EPDM "stars', which eventually causes a leak that will break the liner. ANY installers must first agree that if any, any, any impact occurs, there is no embarrassment, none, just that you need to know. Check for a whitish mark.. that is the star. Repair with patch. Take no chances, whatsoever.
-It should be installed after compacting the subbase with a compactor using sand as the slidable material instead of gravel.
Be absolutely certain that there are no stones, rocks in the base that will rise over time. Since temperature changes are not extreme there should be little movement of any rock.

- do spray water on the sand after tamping, and tamp again.

add 1" of sand all around. Where large boulders fit into pre-excavated cavities place carpet under the liner, more sand, and then the liner with carpet on top, then 1" or to grade to fit of sand - course btw.
(the pre work is a large bowl shape? and has shelves or ? What about the stream?)

No tripods. Counter-balanced rotating tripod with a long/short boom may be used on the edge where machinery can not enter.
Fit stone exactly into place by strapping which will come out from the sand. No wire slings.
Place 1/4 inch plywood 'rounds' on edges under each side, so that there is no stretching of the fabric. Stone is set or is rolled off the plywood, final fitting is done with a strap and boom/people lifting juggling. Sand is the medium that supports the stone.

The pond would be lined with small gabian stone NO SHARP EDGES ALLOWED, if stone has a break or edge then ensure that these stones are used soft curved side down, sharp edges up.
or use flat stone disks that are mixed with sand... over the layer of sand, then stone side to side, (patterns may be achieved), and at the edges, they are installed at the same angle as the bottom ground with a slight inward tilt at the heel (toe is out, heel is into the side). This wedging effect will suport the large stones that fit into the cavities. This method displaces the weight over a larger area than just that immediate spot where the stone rests. Try to ensure that these pieces look like a rhombus so that you have almost a castle wall effect showing on the sides. Stones may then be fitted to overhang in the water so that fish may swim under (simialr to a deadman.)
Sweep sand over the entire, this will be a cleaning layer, that will slide down the stones, will hold plants, acts as a natural filter in the movement of the water. This layer will be replaced from time to time, 7- 10 years it gets thinner.. or is scooped out when cleaning the bottom.
No free running water, except in the installation process, mist so that the sand enters the crevices of the stone and settles. The more compact this layer is the longer the liner will last and the more weight it will displace.

Now you could probably use a tripod with foamed load distributors,.. but the work is already done... but you could use a tripod ladder if needed.

all this means that the size of the pond in depth and widths will need to be 12" deeper and 24" wider than planned for a natural surface to show.

where abouts are you located?
jpegs needed?
there is/are other ways of doing this and more I would add, but do not know what stage you are at.. ie: using concrete to float sharp edged stones,.. and this should be a separate thread... (apology to others)

feel free to ask offline, just that replies may not be immediate..
edzard

Edzard, thanks for your well-thought out comments and the time you have spent. I live near Washington DC. The pond has fairly steep sides, with no shelves. This was on advice from some koi people: steep sides and no shelves due to predators. The koi folks (for garden-sized ponds) currently appear to not like stones on the bottoms or sides of ponds, due to increased maintenance as well as the koi injuring themselves on the stone. (Some water garden folks prefer shelves and rocks, though; what do the Japanese gardeners think?) I do plan, however, to have a small area dedicated to water plants separated from the main pond by a rock-topped ridge, with water able to move through the rock cracks. To make up for no stone on the sides, I would like to have the border stones placed several inches or more down in the water with a lip, to help hide the liner below. I really appreciate your comments on how to spread the weight of the large stones, and place them. They will be very helpful. If it is convenient for you to post or email jpegs related to this, I would be happy to see them (but please don't spend too much time on it!). Thanks again!