Edzard, this is a polite question- but, who told you that Chinese gardens did not influence Japanese gardens in any way ?

Hi Edzard;

How does bear stew taste??? I suggest adding a bit of furikake. It makes everything taste good.

"evolve of itself"??? Quantitatively, how does anything "evolve of itself" regardless of external stimuli without being in a glass jar? Qualitatively, I find it hard to believe that in all those trips to the mainland, after bringing back the gold standard, religion, written language, geomancy, martial arts, and to some degree gyoza (pot stickers) that NO ONE tried to replicate something they saw growing in China. NO ONE???

For you plant people out there. Is there a plant that originated in China and found its way to Japan?

Three stone placement???

Kyoto, Heian period, what is the layout of the noble houses and gardens? Then ask why.

Edzard, where and when is the symposium? This sound, how do I say, "provocative". Emphasis on the root. I see the room dividing right up the middle if this gets brought up. Ron Artest not allowed on the premises.

Michael

Niwashi san,.. --the only person I spoke/wrote to replied only with the 'China Japan issue', & in discretion I'd rather not say, though may I suffice to say that my eyebrow met my hairline.
However, the suggested research stream of "China Japan issue" led back to the JoJG editorials and has overlapped onto these pages in various posts.
trust you are well... best regards,
edzard

Michael, I understand they are vocalizing at the Getty Research Institute and Huntington Library, L.A.

Bear stew? what bear stew? you mean the one protected by the Fed's inspiring the Quadrupal S procedure?
shoot stew shovel & shutup??
what bear?
furikake?, I am low on juniper berries.
e

I am surprised at some of their pronouncements, but I appreciate JoJG as an informative and inspirational publication, and they offer resources that are not available to many otherwise. Although the editors often take stands I do not share, I still recognize their efforts to share a wonderful thing.

I am surprised at some of their pronouncements, but I appreciate JoJG as an informative and inspirational publication, and they offer resources that are not available to many otherwise. Although the editors often take stands I do not share, I still recognize their efforts to share a wonderful thing.

Edzard, yes very well though overworked/very busy as usual. Whenever I get chance to look back in on this forum I see you are as busy as ever ! As far as JOJG as an information source is concerned I would wholeheartedly agree with DonP's statement- useful resource, sometimes informative, though the editorials are sometimes off-the-wall. Particularly the one to which we are referring regarding the Chinese influence (or apparent lack of it ?)on Japanese gardens.

Graham

Looking at the larger picture and rephrasing the comment of Michael above: given the tremendous amount of borrowing of linguistic and cultural concepts by Japan from China, it would be very unlikely that garden concepts were for some reason excluded from this mass borrowing of ideas.
On a parallel with the way language develops, for example, many concepts probably originated in China, were borrowed and refined by Japan, and in some cases borrowed back along with new ideas by China; over the centuries, they likely would have continued to influence each other, even though developing rather distinctively. The extent of these borrowings can be left to the experts, and it would be unusual if more-nationalistic Chinese and Japanese researchers didn't make claims as to the primacy of their culture's influences.

Mark's suggestion of the inclination of "the more nationalistic Chinese and Japanese" could not be more profound.

Michael, I am not sure of Chinese species being imported and naturalised in Japan though in ancient China naturally dwarf/distorted tree specimens were collected from the wild and planted in ceramic pots as 'artistic pot plants' long before the earliest evidence (late Heian/early Kamakura?)of bonsai in Japanese art.

... thanks for the comments thus far. Moreso than concerning myself over a plus/minus factor of what the JoJG is writing, which professionally I do, yet the curious part was wondering simply whether people believed the Journal writings or whether the available research was being believed.

With the vast sources of information available, and opening todays Post, it occured to me to wonder if writers/researchers such as the one from Bowdoin was wasting his time in echoing the Journal by espousing that the templates from China had very little to do with the development of the gardens in Japan.

In short the comments thus far indicate that there are some things that are to be believed about the contents of the Journal, for which the Journal is valuable for and some views which are wasting paper and print and the readers already know this.

once again, this is _not to comment on the Journal, as a quality or not, or a primacy issue (thanks though) this question arose only to understand what 'we the people' believe from the research already available from researchers ie: at Dumbarton or believing the Journal, if that is the source.

In a round about way, I suppose the comments could be valuable to the Journal to indicate that the readers are already better educated than they are being written too, but again, its not my job nor interest to do so, since no one asked. As mentioned, it evolved merely from the response from another source over 'the issue'... without ever thinking there could have been one.

On plant transfer, this seems to have been happening in this culture 'for all time', numerous old tales, supported by pollen dating show that plant material was migrated across the Sea of Japan, back to when it was a walkable pathway some 12000 BCE ago.
And on shea tzu ching and the magician shrinking the world evolving into the bonseki, eventually to be the template for the karesansui... there are many examples of the interactions and mutual borrowings.....
These tales are perhaps a different thread on another date.

Unfortunately in the end result, having read this letter, I feel compelled to ask if most people are once again filtering their sources for the credible and tolerating the questionable in silence for want of the credible.
I'm grateful for the shared opinions...
..........edzard

edzard;

Concerning your last question, you hit the nail right on the head. I am just a wee bit less silent that you. I am a humble gardener, you are a world renown professional, it goes without saying, I am less restrained by what I can say. I am also an Engineer by trade. I love data. Sometimes a piece of data will contradict another piece of data. What do you do??? Get more data.....

Do we trust the data we have now? I leave all with a comment Marc Keane made. He said at the Symposium that he wished four other people would write their own translation of the Sakuteiki. I thought that was pretty classy (as he authored a version himself) but the message was clear.

Get more data......

Michael

I am by no means an expert in Japanese garden history and design. So, I will merely cite an expert that I met while in Japan. Dr. Makoto Nakamura spent his academic career studying archaeological sites and the history of garden development in Japan. He speaks rather particularly about Byodoin and the East Palace Garden at Nara Palace. He said he could quite easily follow the transition from Chinese style stone work and design in the garden, overlaid with what we now refer to as Japanese style stone work and design. Nakamura-sensei also referred to the acceptance of Chinese-based mythologies such as the islands of the immortals as a major influence on Japanese garden design which we still find today. He also said a lot more things which I won't get into since I have to get to work.

Personally, I agree with the theory that the Chinese probably did influence early garden designs, since it was obviously the fashion of the day to copy Chinese culture, but over the centuries, Japanese garden builders and designers developed their own styles, sometimes incorporating influences from China, sometimes developing their own.

Grettings to all,

Edzard, not sure how many opinions you need, or if mine needs voicing, but this smacks of the JOJG hardline that states the gardens of Japan sprang fully formed from the Edo and Meiji periods, with NO outside influences (other than the editorial input of said magazine). Seems unlikely...

I would say that there is little in the way of the Zen arts that has NOT seen influence from Japan, and gardening falls into that category (DESPITE pronounciatons otherwise; Muso Soseki actually wrote a sermon on the garden (which I would be glad to post here if anyones interested; The Mountain and Rivers sermon captures all the different levels of J-gardening very nicely I think).

Scott

Two thoughts :

- this symposium seems to be examining the contribution of garden art to other social experiences and creative pursuits. I suppose this examination could take place irrespective of the origins of the two traditions and therefore could sidestep the entire question. That is, they can be considered as having some paralell and similar roles without asking how the traditions arose.
-"hard line" is a good description of JOJG's editorial policies. They seem silly and shallow to many, but it does serve a purpose in clarifying an issue. In this question, the "hard line" of autogenesis serves to contrast the equally simplistic view that the Japanese gardening tradition is only a local, derivitive variant of an older Chinese tradition.

Excellent point, Louis. Does the derivation define the current state of the art, or even the art form in general? And of what import is the fact that there is derivation of another form inherent in the art form (in this case, J-Gardens)? Does it in some way diminish J-gardens if there is Chinese influences? These are all excellent questions that could be debated for some time.

That does not change historical fact or accurate, educated research, the grand majority of which indicates that the J-garden was an inherited art form with religious overtones. We could preach 'till the cows came home that because no one has kept slaves in the U.S. for over a century that slavery never existed, but it does not change the (accurate) historical record. This kind of revisionism colors far too much history already and I feel it does great diservice to those trying to find the true roots of this art form to miseducate and misinform in the interest of personal agendas.

Fair and accurate reporting is all I ask of my Japanese gardening publications and my presidential elections and I don't expect it in either anytime soon...

Scott

Hi Ezdard
How about Korean ?. The first garden on the first temple in Japan was build by Korean craftmam. The oldest stone lantern could be buid by korean craftman. Wife of Shotoku taishi/Prince Shotoku was Korean, few of Empress had Korean blood. many of member of envoy to China "Kenzuishi" 6th century were Koreians. Korean craftman, artist, monks out number Chinese craftman in Nara piriod. Kingdom of early Japan occuied southern tip of Korean peninshula in late 4 century.

I am learning history between Korean and Japan from Korean side to understand how Korean buddhism and Korean culture affect to Japanese cultures . Attending Korean Temple Chogy sect ( zen line of Buddhsim) for past three month almost every sunday. I have visited chinese purland buddhism "dojo" and given many sutras of Jodo line( pur land buuddhism) of Sutras. one of book I have given has copy of old painting of chinese garden. In that painting, pulm tree's branch is crossing and making chinese charactor of " woman/women". Mr Saito Katuso's gardening book mentioning that only pulm tree's branchs are ok to cross. Now I know why plum tree is ok to cross branchs and where it is come from.

( I will send you copy of painting or the book, It is chinese book/ not gardening book. if you wanto see it. I can send it to Scott as well )

Chinese culture have been affecting many way in Japanese culture, but Korean culture also had great influence to Japanese culture specialy in Nara piriod and before and after.

I am sorry for peoples who depend on soley from JOJG informations and Opinion of JOJG. luck of depth of information, only one sided information, not enough space to write/short of informations.If publisher open his mind and stay in neutarl and bring more of peoples into JOJG and make them exchange idea, thought, debate freely then the jurnal bring more intrest and attract more subscribers.
(my 2 cents)
I have to go to temple now.... if ok I will call you. .................yama

Scott, yama,..
this was only observational since others commented on it, and left me confused and pondering what the public thought... and Korean also fits what I consider the adsorption of the best parts of any cultures that have interacted with the Japanese garden... time and again, history has introduced other cultures, and the method of keeping only what is useful in the Japanese design sense is truly unique.
Yet it came from somewhere, much as the original came from Persia, gathering momentum and details through China and Korea...
shrug, just having difficulty with the concept of the Immaculate conception of the Japanese Garden in the Edo period.

-even as the Shinden-Sukiya architecture is carried forward from the 700'sAD in a romantic return.
edzard
-- 2 more places to visit and I'll be around, better I call you.

Hi Scott
responding to your post of Nov 29:
JoJG editor did not reserch or did not reserched deep enough of origin of Japanese garden and it's history.
reading sakuteiki and other old Japanese garden books, I found many things written in those books I can find it in suras. Kinkaku ji temple and Ginkaku ji temple are build according Amitaba sutra /purland Buddhism doctrin .
Kegon kyo/Sutra , Bonmyuo kyo/sutra, Jizo Bosatus hongan kyo,Namu myo horenge kyo etc.
Leaning Japanese hisotry from Korean side, I discovered many things about Japan which Japanese history book did not tell.

Koan is like poops. poops has good use as fertilizer but koan is no use and worthless. If no action is taking place, and if you are just thinking and reading koan. Zen is not hard as most peoples think and easy to do it. you can find Zen in your every day life as you reading this post.

I am going to make color copys of cover of chinese book which has chinese paining. when I look very carefully this painting , I found many intresting things in this painting.This painting some how relate to Japnanese garden desgne and pruing of prunus Mume.
I am goingto send it to person(s) who gave me cooking recipe and Gw posters who gave me thier home adress priviuosly and know me well.
If you donot know me well, never gave me coking recipe before ( Be nice to me next time I ask cooking recipe,hehehe ) but you like to have a copy, you send me e-mail and give me address, send self stamped, self adressed envelope and acural cost of copy( one 37 cent stamp should be enough) please note: This is only one time offer. end Dec 31 04
Next year I will buy scanner and learn how to use it.Then every one can see it.( may be, I should send it to Christian or Herb ) ...........yama

"Yet it came from somewhere, much as the original came from Persia" is a strange thing to be saying and on the face of it is contradictary. Presumably the Persian garden did arise spontaneously?
At a certain point in Japan's history there was an attempt at isolationism but "too late" was the cry because foreign influence was already present. Outside influence may have been curtailed for a while and this insularity is the distinction that a Japanese garden has, yet the Chinese were already in. The simplistic view that George offers of one guy going overseas to bring back a video of "How to make a garden the Chinese way" is naive. Ono no Imoko had more of a connection with flower arranging than garden design although it is true some see garden design as such.
In recent discussions here both Scott and Mike have attempted to pin a tail on this donkey which makes for interesting speculation and it comes from a genuine source and, just like a koan, this is the power. Which is in, not the answer: but the question.
There is no doubt that we (westerners) see things in a materialistic way i.e. if I can see it then it exists. Things. We see a Japanese garden as a certain arrangement of these things. Mike spends a lot of time trying to explain something that we don't get and I think that this is it. We impose the word 'garden' when what it is something else.

:)... I've raised an eyebrow...
INKcognito,.. the Japanese garden came from the Persian garden. Nothing contradictory and hoping you would enlighten me.
Research has shown this to be accurate. Further additions to it on the way to Japan, were the shapes and trees grown on temple's (Borobudur), which were templated into the Japanese garden. Do double check the history of the Silk Road and its extent of influence, (cave art sculpture painting etc.) (further please check Amasaki's research on the origins of the pond being rectangular,... not even keyholed)

I'm always surprised that we westerners presume to believe that foreign influence has besmearched a pure thing. This is highly untrue, merely us seeing in our own context.
In greater truth, the Japanese people are perhaps the greatest adopters of mankind. They have actively sought to adopt anything from other cultures that they possibly could, encouraging this adoption in every phase of living. They still do,.. being the product test market of the world.

This is a good thing, not a dilution of anything (to my understanding as it has been explained to me not being Japanese). What has occurred from historical records is that adopted things were tried, and in keeping with the uniqueness of the culture they kept what they felt fit into their culture by reworking the precept. And 'what works' dates back to thought process developed by the original 'forest Culture' processes of the Yayoi/Jomon basics - proportion, balance, choice-selection, meanings =rope is snake culture, pottery shape as first yam cultivation etc.

Indeed there was a period of isolation, however all the garden pieces were already there by this time and stagnated the gardens to became mere reflections of what was before an innovative creation with purpose and specific result. The isolationism brought about the templated DIY garden woodblocks which acutely devalued the garden (Nitschke, Kuitert)
In this period, occasional gardeners surfaced who understood the 'seek what they sought not what they did' from the previous periods/schools of garden work (and we now quote often with undoubtably misdirected intent)
This isolation did not bring about new revelations. It did bring a refinement of the patterns of expressing nuances developing a highly evolved communication text, which in origin, is Chinese Court thought, Heian period romanticised and brought forward. And in turn, adoption of new concepts still continued, which were again weeded out and reconceived in the uniquely Japanese way.

Flower design, Ikebana, bonkei specifically developed into the karesansui garden, lack of water and Real Estate did the rest.

Indeed, it, the garden, is something else. It is the subtext of communication and understanding of space, nature, people and the relationships we spontaneously require to feel comfort and memory to remain humanly whole. This covers all aspects of living and as 'things' is primarily weakly reflected as being only in architecture and landscape architecture... and these derive from our relationships with all around us and include thought and decoration.
I'm curious to hear where the previous thoughts come from... and would enjoy any insights you would offer.
edzard

Hi,
I find Inkognito's remark about being niave and bringing back a video about how to make a Japanese garden VERY OFENSIVE,
I also remember a couple of years back when these so called know it alls where being quite offensive in their posts, are we getting back to those days again when us simple minds don't post, because we don't profess to know it all or should I say we don't know anything,
George.

George;

I did a quick google on video tapes and could not find a reference that goes back to 1000 AD. Got to be careful with what some people write on this board. The opinions can sometimes be hard to stomach but the backbiting and lack of credible information are real red flags that something is amiss with the writer. Just remember that some people are contributors and some people are merely critics. One brings something into this world, the other destroys it.

I'll check with my family in Morioka. Perhaps they can find an ancient scroll or something that has a video tape on it. I have a cousin in Kamakura as well. I will have her check on it too.

A lack of humility is almost always a defense mechanism for either 1)a lack of education or 2) a lack of confidence. George, I have always considered you a humble guy.

Let's see you talk your way out of this one, Inky

Michael

George, I hadn't meant to be offensive but your statement "Is it true, is it not, it is history, we have to believe in somethings that we read." is a tad naive isn't it? Once again this is not an attack any more than your calling me names is. Your garden speaks for itself and you have no need of this intellectual babble yet the way you present the historical precedent is flawed, perhaps it doesn't matter.
edzard, I believe the Persian carpet is the artifact that most influenced garden design world wide almost accidentally. Can you point me to Amosaki's work?

Hi George
Onno Imoko was went to China via Korea 607 as the emisary. next year when he retuned to Japan( not 5 years) Chinese Empror send his emisary to Japanese Empror with Onno Imoko. Rest of scholar monks and studen are remained in China for study. We do not have exact number of monks and students , probably between 20 ~ 40. Name of 4 of scholar monks and 4 student we have recorded for surethat they were Korean decendant. It is easy to understand it since Prince Shotoku 's wife, his mother also Korean decendent.
when Chinese emisary retune to China Onno Imoko went to China as second time emisary with Chinse emisary. when He retuned second time,He brought back some of scholar monks and student, some are remained in China for long as 30 years and some were never retuned and died in China.
Our record show that first temple Asuka ji/ another name is Hoko ji was build around 620 . Michinokonotakumi ( I think it is mean craftman) / Shikimaro( name of craftman ) Build garden on Asuka ji compound.
Askaji also has the oldest stone lantern( only stone base is remained).

Kenzuishi/emisary to china in 607 was not first emisary to China. hundreds years ago, Japan occupied southern Korea and send gift and emisary to King of China asking recognition of it.
About 200 years befor Buddhism came to Japan, Teach of Confuios arrived to Japan.

I am attending Korean temple of Jun Doung Sa of Chogye sect,( Sa means temple in Korean) largest sect of zen line of Korean Buhhsim past 4 months almost every sunday. also start learning Korean so that I can chant sutras in Korean. some time I also visit Chinese temple of Pur land sect(jodo shu in Japanese).
I am prepaireing to send you a copy of chinese paint which you can see bonsai, flower arengement and chinese garden , round entrance, pruning of prunus mume ect in one painting.
If you have some other things you like to see (if I have. you never know until you ask :):):)... ) , I am happy to make copy and send it to you.

If you have chance to chat with long lost friend Sam , please say hello to him. Perhaps Spike may allow him to come back to GW...............Yama

I have no need to talk my way out of anything Michael. Your nastiness is also humourless and trite yet enough to turn me away from further contribution to a forum that you obviously consider yours.

Dear Edzard
You are my friend. I respect you and knowlege you have. also you have been helping many others in the past.
However Your posting of Dec 9, I do not and cannot agree some part of your opinion at all. ( not all of it)I do know myself a little about Persian in Japanese culture. In Japanese hisitory, record show there were direct contact of a persian doctor and Indian monk came to heian piriod to Japan . However we do not have very detail record of it. What we know is that their presence did not have much of big impact to Japanese culture at the time. Dutch marchants brought some marchandise form persia, probably via China. Some Dutch marchant was on board of Chinese trade ship. Dutch was only western nation allow to trade after Christianty was destroyed compleatly in early 1600, Becourse They promissed not bring Christianty into Japan.

I look into hisotry books if any of books I have are suport you opinion. You also have to give me information source which suport your opinin. I do not know Who is Amasaki . Can you tell me about him ?

It may take long time to serch. If I missed good timeing, We exchange opinions privetely.

I am going to read your posting care fully again and respond later. ......... Respectful bow to you.

Yama

Tony;

Contribute or criticize that is your choice. I have no problem with thanking someone or letting them know to play nice. Your contributions to this site are noteworthy however the fact of the matter is that you will say something really nasty to someone for no apparent reason. My reactions however are fairly obvious and are pretty predictable. And just as nasty.......

What we both did was wrong. I justify my actions by your initial bash job on George but wrong is wrong. I'll take the first step and apologize to you, Tony. I am pretty sure we will not be having this conversation again if you just learn to be nice to people and treat them with the respect that you expect others to treat you.

Michael

Hi Edzard
I am going to send you map of Japan and China of about 10,000 years ago. The Map shows today's yellow sea was land , siveria and Hokkaido was connected. Today's Japan sea was huge lake. I am going to spend time to study of Jomon / yayoi Era . I think this map will help you to understand few things.

I hope peoples who you mentioned on Nov 22 posting are able to find many informations before they speak front of many audiance. some of informations of early history of Japan never translated to English and may not able to reach to those speakers.

Micheal :
Please ask to your relative that If they can think of Japanese word "Sama" is originated from korean. Sato sama, yamada sama like "san", Oto san, yama san. word that is added to end of name of perosn to call him /her politely.

Please hold your breath and not write back to Inky for few days. once you write or spoken , It is hard to take it back your word. Offten we regret later when we react with anger.
..... yama

yama san, sumimasen, --
demo mata jodzhu ja arimasen...

Mike,..
research is always done first, :), and yes, they should do their own research before deciding to quote mine. On the other hand, the research I quote is from sources that make sense. shrug, naturally with any research, sometimes it may be all wrong or twisted,.. shrug, thats why we always do more research and keep an open mind.

(Dr.) Amasaki Hiromasa is President of Kyoto College of Art, University and directs the Research Centre of Japanese Garden Art. - :), thank you I have a detailed map(s) of Japan and the Korean peninsula dating back 12,000yearsBCE. Another is always welcome.
Regarding square shaped ponds:
Shima no sho excavations in Asuka, dated 600 A.D., 42 square meters, comprised of flat stones average 30cm across. Same specific garden design is in Paekche and Koguryo. quote, "it must be said that it also overturns the formerly held belief that lakes with a natural curving shoreline were a universal design feature of the Japanese garden", Amasaki, 'From Reality to Abstraction'-- Journal of Japanese Trade & Industry May/June, 1999, Publisher Japan Economic Foundation
next: the earlier excavation of the Toin garden, Heijokyo, straight line L shape typical of the Asuka period (new research, square edge ponds), and was reconstructed in the 8C with suhama, etc.

July/August, 1999, JJT&I, Amasaki: "It was Enshu who employed a linear design for the lake at Sentogosho (photo 4)--part of the Imperial rsidence in Kyoto -- and he also planned the planted areas there. It had been a thousand years since such ornamental ponds had first been used in gardens in the Asuka period and, interestingly enough, it preceded the use of such formalized schemes in Baroque gardens in Europe."

Persia: the gardens of Persia were incorporated in the gardens of India, which became part of the gardens of China, which became a part of the gardens of Korea, which became part of the gardens of Japan.
No one traveling from Persia to Japan is needed for this to happen.
This is however from presentations at the Research Center of Japanese garden Art
5 lines of independant research may also be followed:
the migration of the horse,
migration of pottery,
migration of bronze (note: Japan never had a bronze period)
tomb paintings going backwards from Japan, correlate to Kokuryo Tombs in Korea, then back through China, back through India, back through to Persia.
Specific subjects:
Mountains- eg: authors: Bernbaum, Munakata, Stanley-Baker.
Trees/pollen: Stanley-Baker: tomb murals on the Silk Road, Yoshinori Yasuda: pollen data to the time of Susanoo-no mikoto and Gilgamesh, removal of Cedar Forests, Lomgmagucheng Baodun site/Min river-China jade eyes = Jomon dogu (Snake = forest) eyes relate to Medusa (feather period) to 'blue - eye' amulets from Turkey/Syria.....
--not to mention the quartered format of the Persian garden as wellspring, in which the Japanese garden is retained at 1 of the quarters, and that the names of the rivers from Mt. Sumeru are the same names..... + 8 Mountain Mandala template...
-now I would need visuals and presentation time to show the information.

and most interesting is the latest research stream of Marc Keane, that the 'shells' refering to the koans on Buddhas head are a redepiction/design translation of the curls of hair of an 'assyrian' godking, -- perhaps Michael would correct or adjust, enlighten on this presentation Marc had done...

I would ask that open minds prevail, since it would be ludicrus for me to comment without some form of research or reason for the the notation.

INKcognito enjoys a good verbal challenge and never fails to add just enough flavouring to incite a response, quite successful would we not agree??? --and when INKcognito wishes to annoy, rest assured people are annoyed...
all in good challenge,.. I read no insults..
edzard

Thanks George and a Merry Christmas to you too. PAX.

I have been intrigued by edzards insistence that the inspiration for Japanese Gardens was the Persian Garden but instead of following the Silk Road as suggested I followed the Lotus Flower road and went a little way down the Peony road too, travelling on a Persian carpet. It is not my intention to write my thesis here in full but...
The lotus (or water lily) grows almost everywhere there is fresh (not salted) still water, even in the United States! It was first given religious powers by the Egyptians and revved up when the Persians showed their blue one. The Mughals (Persians) set up shop in India where the Lotus sutra was written and then carried to China along with Buddhism. The Chinese were growing Lotus for food at this point (in square ponds) soon it became the symbol of rebirth and purity. Next stop Japan... da dah. The Chinese grew peonies for medicinal purposes Ghengis Khan knew of the peony. The Persian paradieze was either an enclosed (hortus conclusus) garden or an enclosed hunting park, either could have influenced the Chinese nobility and scholars as both are evident. Buddhism travelled from China to Japan and with it these ideas. It is evident how attractive a secluded garden might be to a religion based on meditation on nature (shortened version).

I will let you know when this story is out on video.

INKcognito,
Then may I suggest following the Hokkyuin lantern through Korea (as stupa varient) to China (special attention to the Lamaist Halls, Wanshou Hills and the Jingmingyuan garden of Yuquan mountain - shape of pagoda roofs = ? lotus) through the caves of India - side stream to Anghor Watt, then literally the paper trail of recorded lotus + carvings, cave paintings combined with placement on stupa bases -> Egypt and then pre-Egyptian to the hanging walls.
As stupa are noted (by misdirection & disproven) to only be placed over wells the trail of the lotus becomes clear.
Paper / painting focus might be on the duality (Dao) of the ying/yang of the Lotus in painting...
another trail associated with the lotus is that of now extinct plant/tree species.
No doubt you have already encountered these research streams, and otherwise hope this helps and proves as interesting as appreciated by others,
edzard

This thread is my cup of tea : )

Thankyou for the adventure and I feel great while reading the thread. The excitement of exploring and discovery.

INKcognito.. was there a specific reason for mentioned the carpet??? at least it jogged a memory of the basis of Bedoiun tent sizes.

on the Lotus road:
Uhde, 1903, press: Wasmuth, Ernst -Berlin verlag, Der Holzbau, ...
the connection back to Egypt -> the lotus flower reverts to bud form and in the stalk is the shape of the columns with top of lotus bud (Collonade to Philae, Temple to Denderah, Temple of Edfu / bud top pillars of Tontmes III, Karnak / Necropolis of Giza IV Dynasty and also very apparent of the polebarges developed for the Nile) the bud top column developed into the Corinth (ian).

The sidebar timeline into Mesopotamia / Persia exists as the pillar size/ square dimension determining the tent size of one, eg: Ibrahim Pascha in Wezanschehir between Urfa and Mardin / the stone tomb of Beni-Hassan.
These derived from the 'abacus' (flat beam under-support & top of column) portion of the capital, based on the proportion of the lotus leaf/papyrus proportion.
This lotus stalk base 'foot' is apparently removed at the proto-Dorian stage and with the removal of the pillar & eventually becomes the open lotus bud form to support weight equivalent to the abacus... shortform as my Alt-Deutsch is rusty at the skimming level.

This effectively places the open Lotus flower form as a base to weighted forms and then perhaps the Kouzama = abacus (grin... just for Yamakami san)

Correlating to portions of this pillar history is Forest & Civilization, Yasuda, 2001, supported by pollen counts/Sasonoo = Gilgamesh, Mykonos, etal.

an interesting sidebar to read and see, is the duplication of the Torii form as the base in the tombs in Lykos and Mykonos and an uncanny likeness of the Tomb of Telmissus to the stone tombs of Japan (Buddhist). (hmm, opposite of anything I've ever read)
makes one think... ah well, never enough time for indulgent research.
edzard
:), INKcognito, when will you be defending this thesis??? can I come too??

Hi all
about plant(S):
Micheal and Niwashisan
many of plants use on temple garden came from China more than average Japanese can think of.( so do you) some of plant can tell by name like "Tokaede" "korai shiba" "Kara take" horai "chiku" etc. some of plant name have been changed from chinese to japanese, some of name like "botan" "shaku yaku" are just like Chinese pronaceation.
sarusuberi/hyaku jitsuko is from India via china and korea.
many of plants are so much of Japanese plants like name, name it's self can not tell where plants are came from originary .you have no clue. some book say it is native of china, other book tell native of china, korea and Japan,other book tell it is native of Japan. 10,000 ~12,000 years ago kyushu Island and Hokkaido was conected to main land/ continent.

many weeds came from north America also , agin We changed name of weeds sound like native weeds of Japan.
When I hear "Japanese beetle" I tell "we have America hirohitori/tent catapillar" hehehe

Hi Edzard
I found informations. regarding your post of Dec 10.
L shape pond:
asukaji initial archiaeology reserch was dated long time ago . back to Taisho era. Asuka-ji (official name is ganko ji) was bult by Sogano Umako around 588. pond of asulaji donot shape L shape. there is Island in in pond , base on shumi sen ,buddism fron based on Bonmyokyo.

L shape pond was discovered 1935 by Dr Yasushi Adachi, archaeologyist , reserch was contenued by Nara natioanl reserch center, Mr Testuo Tanaka who is head of resrch of Heijo kyo reserch wrote article on "Kuge, busho no niwa " Heibonshya in 1980 aslo Garden historyian , Resercher Atusshi Mori wrote about Heijo kyo reserch in same magazine. Dr Amasaki's reasech or article is nothing new.

Buddhism of India wento far as Greek but Buddhism did not give big impact to Greek cultuer. Roman empire controled many land and went far as Africa, Egypt . I am sure that Greek culture were hired by Roman Empire. Daruma daishi who is founder of all zen sect of Buddism , his face show he is not chinese, Big eye, high nose ridge indicate he is not like ordanary Chinese. Many scholor think he came from middle east.

studying korean history and Japanese history, Buddhism came long before offical date of buudism in Japan
"Nihon shoki" recorded chinese influence of garden with pond date back to 402 and 485. around this era kingdom of wanokuni/ eraly time of empror aready occupied southern tip of korean peninsula and fought with Kogryo. kingdom of paekje had good relation ship with ruler of Japan for long time. 366 and 391to404 send solders to Shila and paekje and conquer the both country.

I think L shape pond is very unusal,isolated garden pond
designe.
How many of square or L shape garden pond you can find in Japanese garden? Buddhism it's self has other relegion's influence as well.
I can not orgaize my thinking ,writeing and all informations togather yet.
......................yama

chuckling,.. yama san,..
as many as are needed by the design requirements.
edzard
...... i answer quickly for fun, yet i will think on this awhile, and consider that while the research is not new ( I miss the point here, why is new important?), it took Dr.Amasaki to put it into English. Perhaps I am biased by knowing him.
On the other hand, the keyhole tombs with the almost right angles and straight lines... its relationship to Shima= Niwa is interesting.
it removes the isolated idea of square and L shape.

Hmmm...

Bedouins basing their architectural features on the size of their carpets, huh? Sounds vaguely familiar...

Tha last culture I heard of that had no outside influence was that tribe on Mindanao that had stayed in the Stone Age a few thousand years longer than the rest of the planet. Anthropology is full of stories of truly sheltered cultures and they simply do not advance without assimilating outside ideas. Denying the historical record is certainly feasible but myopically challenged; look at Huxley's Brave New World or Orwell's Oceania (or the current American regime) to see how well that plays out in the long run. I'd much rather sift through what everyone else is saying and keep the stuff that fits and discount the rest. Thanks to Edzard, Yama, Inky, and all the rest of you for adding plenty of grist to my mill; I have garnered many kernels of knowledge here...

Happy Holidays (Xmas, Hanukah, Dhana, Kwanza, etc., etc.,etc...

Scott

P.S. Yama I will call you this evening, promise...

edzard: I actually meant the carpet as being 1) an essential component of a nomads travelling home and 2) as a kind of precursor to the photograph. The similarity to tatami may only be a coincidence if you believe in such things. The effect would have been, consciously or not, a sharing of the geometry and floral patterns of the Persian carpet.
I had a look on the internet for Yasuda's work and what I found seemed to suggest that the traffic went the other way, I have ordered the book for further study, so don't leave me off your Christmas list if I am wide of the mark.

hmm, INKcognito, you'll find it raises a lot of questions...
and the nomads life is cartage and as we all know that China has moved us into the container age, I am sure that the problems of now were relevant then.
What convenient size can one move as smallest, lightest, yet adequate for ones needs, much as the sizes of everything we have around us that has been shipped is based on the proportion of what goes in the box, what fits on the truck and so on. Lego lives.

What I'll need to go back to was a reference by Uhde that is still incomprehensive but thereby caught my attention enough to go back for your quip. It translates as 'the floor is the ceiling' wherein floor as teppich, carpet, seemed inclusive of pattern. (?????) Unless it refered to the pattern the laid carpets took became the ceiling... only way it makes sense. I'll read it again sometime.

yet, these containers, shipping sizes, then brings back the query string of ? Yoshinobu ? who mentioned the nomadic influence on the peoples of Japan.

I'm sure you'll enjoy the book, more everytime you peruse it.
edzard

Hi Edzard.
I am still serching Kozama facts. I did not know where I can start, I know now where and what books I should get to complete reserch it. I located addtional Japanese stone lantern book(s) but can not find related Chinse book (s )/book store , chinese stone lantern book(s) yet. so serching stone larntern's "Kozama" facts may take lot's longer than I inititialy thought.
also I start learning Korean. whole purpose of leraning Korean is that I want to chant sutra in Korean with members of Korean Temple and able to greet them. ( beside I have to learn English)

also I am midle of study of early relation of between China, Korea and Japan In 100' to 700'.
The subjct you bought in this post is like spaghetti and piza. spaghetti and piza are Italian food right ? Can you think of Chinese foods in Spaghetti ?
Spell of Japan was zipangu,( 1300's) zipangri, then Jopuen,Jepuen Japan , Japon . Was it( word) originated Europe ? No, it is Chinese.
I am for sure that one culture went to other part of world and adapted well and no longer cannot smell any chinese herbs and lost taste of chinese .
How you bring this subject and present the subject (s) to others makes big different/impact(s).
first thing is first. I want to give you answer of "Kozama" ( and I want to know it myself)and finish study of early Japanese/ korean/Chinse history.

You gave me many questions and new informations which I
never thought of . It lead me to study myself more .

Have a Nice and Safe holiday saeson and Happy new year to all..................................Yama

Hi Edzard
about pond ; I found two kind of pond in sutras, first one is most peoples know as part of shumisen. It is mainly base on Bonmyo kyu and "kegon kyo kezo sekaibon"
( I have a sutra of " kegonkyo kezo sekaibon but Bonmokyo. I cannot read in Bonmokyo sekai kan yet. only I have part of Bonmyo kyu )
Many of temple's big ponds and noble's pond were based on those sutras.
another pond is from " muryoju kyo" one of three sutra of purland buddhism . This pond is like wading pond , no lotus plants are mentioned in the pond. few trees are mentioned edge of pond. It is much like use of swiming pool.

Pond of L shaped in Heijokyo: Thirdly, Heijo kyo Pond is constracted along inside of wall. at time of constraction of many building of capital" Heijokyo " Thousand official and its family had to live in Capital city to conduct daily busines, at time Nobles had own solders, horse, bull, they must have water within reasonable distance. drinking water for domestic annimal, washing horse and bull, children and wife(s) might use as wadeing pool to cool off hot summer.
keep water in case of fire, washing dish or pots. water for cooking, bath ect, To suport thousnads peoples without tap water nor hand pump, L shaped pond might have been used as functioal multiple purpose pond.
The peoples of Heian priod, thier life style are not complicated . If you live at time what you want in hot summer days ? air conditioner/cooler ?

Oops I forgot, you don't need air condtioner, you have enough ice and snow most of time. you need to have heater for long time.;););)...yama