"Unfortunately, that is not what they say, and they keep insisting things which are not myths are myths."

I suspect we need to stop using the word myth. Notion, seems more appropriate as you use it. Or another alternative.
For me the confusion needs the clarification that mythology, the myth, is not and should not become a 'bad thing'.
otherwise, if a myth were a bad thing, and if we are banning 'bad things' then we should ban Christmas and all festivities associated with it, and Easter, and.. the English garden, since the tree parked in the middle of the front yard with grass all around stems from mythology. It represents a myth, something not currently proven yet exists in cultural memory.
And we'd have to tell every culture on earth to get rid of the idea of dragons...

-are the zigzag bridges then a bad myth or are they a notion that was introduced into the garden as a way of explaining and understanding something that was duplicated previously without recognizing it came from a location on the Tokkaido Road?

--if one were to apply fusui, then angled routes are said to stop spirits. And there was normally cause for such things at one time in history.

Then the zig zag bridge + spirits is not the 'best explanation' for the bridge. The explanation is however, one way of looking at it, whereas the original conception of the zigzag bridge (attrb'd) came from the Tokkaido Road location.

The question would be that, What caused the mythology to be carried forward in the first place?

In the case of the original 8 islands, 5 were lost. The three remain.
This concept can be traced back to the flooding of the land bridge by the sea between the mainland and Japan proven to have happened BCE, 10,000 years ago.

Therefore, most myths and mythology can be traced back to an event that took place at one time and was carried forward in the cultural rememberance of a people.

A myth then,in my opinion, is not a 'bad thing', the myth has an origin, and if reference is made to it, then there may be a reason for it, even if the reason has been forgotten.
Best to find the reason for a myth. And to use that information positively for people's betterment, rather than avoiding its use.

put, a different way I would suggest:
the myth of the Islands, the concept, is a tool in the gardeners repertoire, not something to be avoided, rather something that in the right place, right client, good context, it can be an effective tool used to convey a design solution that becomes a 'beautiful place'.

Unfortunately, there are perhaps no more than 5 ways of constructing islands effectively, that work with other necessary parameters. No matter the construction technique, from at least one angle there will always be a 'visual relationship' that would also be seen in the mythological representations that have been rendered already.
edzard

Edzerd. I like you lots : ) Thankyou .

Edzerd,

would you please explain what/where is the Tokkaido road location and the connection with zig-zag type bridges ?

thanks, Ron B

Lee, do you think you could translate the 15 books I don't yet have into English? Maybe in your spare time...

And Herb, the thing here is the myth (notion, superstition, whim, flight of fancy) predates the use in the garden. It is not an imitation of nature in this case, it is a symbol of an abstract, neh...?

Ron, the Yatsuhashi or 8-fold bridge refers to a location on the Tokkaido on the Azuma River where the river splits into 8 estuaries, each with their own bridge. Very famous in Japanese literature...(I'm no Edzard, but I know what I know...)

Scott

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1011482}}

Scott,

Thank you, I am very familiar with the term Yatsuhashi and the Azuma river I just did not know of the Tokkaido road to which edzerd referred. Live and learn !

Thanks, Ron B

On the topic of the zigzag bridge --- I understand the origin of the zigzag bridge, but when and how did the notion of spirits disliking a crooked path come in? I'm interested if anyone has a source for the origin of this idea or notion (nodding to Edzard).

I'm hoping that my general point is not completely lost --- i.e. the turtle island was (and is) created intentionally by garden designers and it represents or harkens back to or evokes a mythical scene. The mythical scene is very old (and originally Chinese), and the custom of representing it in Japanese gardens is also old. As others have pointed out, works of art sometimes portray mythical scenes (or scenes from "fairytales" if you like).

I don't think this is at all the same as what Herb is talking about --- "...simply a human tendency to give names to natural objects that have outlines that resemble living creatures, the names of those creatures..." Herb is talking here about a person overlaying his own arbitrary ideas on a scene he happens upon. This is not the case with the turtle island in the Japanese garden.

About your last comment Herb --- are you referring to me when you mention "...arguing about whether a turtle island is 'correct'..." or that "understanding turtle islands requires deep learning"? --- or are you referring to somebody else's comments? I don't understand what you're saying.

Scott --- I'll get on those translations right away! (Sigh) Too bad the Japanese bubble burst, or we could probably find someone to fund it.....

Lee

It is only fairly recently that 'myth' has become synonymous with 'untruth'. Fairy tales and legends were part of an oral tradition that has almost disappeared as edzard observes "most myths and mythology can be traced back to an event that took place at one time and was carried forward in the cultural rememberance of a people." or as Wlkepedia has it "A myth is often thought to be a lesson in story form which has deep explanatory or symbolic resonance for preliterate cultures, who preserve and cherish the wisdom of their elders through oral traditions by the use of skilled story teller." If you look at it from that perspective a myth that has people talking about it or discussing a physical manifestation of it 500 years later has an excellent pedigree.
The only problem with myths is that according to the Greeks the talking about it (Logos) and the magic contained within it (Mythos) are difficult to reconcile.

Lee,

In the sense that natural objects are often given names, you are correct in saying "Herb is talking here about a person overlaying his own arbitrary ideas on a scene he happens upon."

I had in mind the origin of such names, the incorporation into gardens of things that that evoke the originals and the use of the names in garden vocabulary. It seems to me that the same sort of process occurs when Japanese garden builders incorporate representations of Mount Fuji in their gardens. In this respect I see no reason to distinguish between turtles and Mt. Fuji. Whether it be a turtle or Mount Fuji, the result can be a charming whimsy, to be appreciated (or not) by viewers according to their own sensibilities. To quote Shinichiro Abe again - they can put any meaning they like on a garden - it isn't for the designer to say.

It was his attitude that I had in mind when I wrote about - "...arguing about whether a turtle island is 'correct'..." and about the notion that "understanding turtle islands requires deep learning". I was certainly not referring to you. I was making the point that a true Artist - which is what Shinochino Abe is - does not need to embark on analyses of that sort, and that the more effort there is to analyse, the more it leads in the direction of boring pedantry.

Herb

I prefer the term "fairytale" (over myth) that I read in the other post. That terminology is easier to grasp, I think.

Anyway, to me it doesn't matter whether there's evidence that anyone ever beleived that zig-zag bridge bit or not. Either way, it's still a pile of malarkey.

Oh Herb,... there ya go again... and I was remembering nice things about you... and then,
"It seems to me that the same sort of process occurs when Japanese garden builders incorporate representations of Mount Fuji in their gardens. In this respect I see no reason to distinguish between turtles and Mt. Fuji. "

The two ideas are two different design solutions.

The point you miss again, as you still prefer to translate Abe's words to your own uses, is simply that the gardener is not supposed to need to tell people what they are seeing, because,,
it will then always be seen that way, which is not the objective of gardens.

And this statement has absolutely no reference to turtle islands or other constructions of any kind.. the statement refers to 'garden', not to historic representative gardens or scroll painting gardens or temple gardens, just, gardens in the modern age.

-- Islands, in finding design solutions, if you were at all familiar with working with a team on a job site, you would realize quickly that when the worker asks what the island should look like, then referring to a turtle is also a construction technique, much the same as the moon 'cone' at Ginkakuji, is also in the shape of Mt Fuji, again... the emphasis is on the need for a design solution/construction technique.

This is about Myths, and roundabout perhaps the realization that most (as mentioned, thank you Scott/INKy) have reasons for being in specific gardens... and when in certain positions should follow certain forms, like.. which way the turtle is heading, much the same as the 'treasure boat' stone in Daisen-in.
-And these forms came mostly from the Chinese painting schools, which were used to create gardens in specific periods of history that are copies of scroll paintings...

so, please leave modern gardens as modern gardens that don't give a mosquito's armpits about whats in them excepting a design solution and respect the efforts of a discussion on historic references in historic gardens,

so that,
--unless a workable design solution that needs a constructed island is needed, beyond footings and visual directions, then turtle images are probably not used.. but, and, yet, knowing when you've turned the head of the turtle around in a historic referenced garden, ... might save some face for you or
might just be an extended courtesy to a host if you happen ever to be in a garden that has the representation of one, and courtesy of knowing when it was intended to be one...

well if this little education is too much boring pedantry for you, then, sorry, I guess thats the limit of the depth of gardening for you...
Your perspective can't be helped, no matter who is trying, and if you do not wish to see the variables and joys of what design and the JG can be... and to use the tools given to you, then don't comment and highjack the thread.

I presume that this validates your position so that you are absolved of your lack of motivation to learn?
"I was making the point that a true Artist - which is what Shinochino Abe is - does not need to embark on analyses of that sort, and that the more effort there is to analyse, the more it leads in the direction of boring pedantry."

again, you do not know what he analysis he did, or concept he thought of while he was designing the space,....
what Shinochino (Shinchiro Abe) was also saying is that if you don't get (ie: understand) the garden then he's not telling you to spoil it for you, nor should he, so, it is not for the gardener to say. The garden is a learning vehicle to stretch the imagination, etc.

Now,.. Herb, kindly get off the thread or use your intellect and research abilities to further Lee's research thread,.. which she doesn't need to share with anybody, but kindly is...

and the topic is:
"I think what they actually mean is that these Japanese garden features are representations of mythical events or that they demonstrate belief in what we now think of as superstitions. Unfortunately, that is not what they say, and they keep insisting things which are not myths are myths."

as INKy contributed with the problematic observation that,
"preserve and cherish the wisdom of their elders through oral traditions by the use of skilled story teller." If you look at it from that perspective a myth that has people talking about it or discussing a physical manifestation of it 500 years later has an excellent pedigree.
The only problem with myths is that according to the Greeks the talking about it (Logos) and the magic contained within it (Mythos) are difficult to reconcile."
........ and there were others, but this post is far to long, sorry everyone,.. edzard

Answer to the "Ghostbuster" question in that other post....

"People mock what they do not understand"

Michael

Herb-

You example regarding to name natural objects that have outlines that resemble living creatures is not correct.
The twin peaks on the North Shore overlooking Vancouver do not really resembles lions. The non-Native name, The Lions comes from the resemblance to the famous crouching lions of London's Trafalgar Square. (man made object)

The North Shore Mountains are there since the glacial ice cap expired.
".... According to the First Nations' legend, twin sisters-daughters of a great chief......they had borne the two offspring of peace and brotherhood, the sisters were given immortality: lifted in the Great Chief's hand, they were set forever on a high place..."
People still call the peaks Twins or Sisters. I like this name better, too.

The turtle island is a symbol, doesn't have to look exactly like a turtle or "vaguely resembles a turtle" as you wrote it, but has certain characteristics. Not just some people call it turtle island, everybody, who has any knowledge of Japanese Gardens call it on that name. Maybe they don't like the turtle island, but it is the name.

You didn't recognize that it is very-very Japanese, criticized it and now you bring up everything to make a point ....Stir, stir, stir.

Andrea

Turtle islands? Demons on zig-zag bridges? How silly! As somebody said in that other post, Japan probably has more citizens who believe in Santa Clause than people who believe in this silly stuff.

Don't get caught up or fixated on details. The point of a turtle for an island is nothing more than a mathimatical equation expressed in simple terms.

When creating an island make it oval-like and convex (image could be a turtles' shell), then add the feature rocks (place them roughly where a tutles' legs, head and tail are located, use the same proportionate sizes).

Then fill the spaces with the in between stones, and presto, you have a well balanced natural looking island.

Ferrytales are a lot more romantic than all those silly mathimatical equations, and offers a simaler result.

Don't make it look like a turtle, just think about what a turtle looks like and use that image. Does the Milkyway really look like a milky way?

Gerald

Andrea,

So, the Lions overlooking Vancouver don't resemble Lions - they only resemble another resemblance of Lions?

It makes me think of cousins. Are they what might be called Lions once removed?

Herb

"when and how did the notion of spirits disliking a crooked path come in?" Lee asks.
The 'when' is impossible to date, as to the other part of your question it is more likely the belief is that evil spirits travel in straight lines and zig zags are a way to stop them or at least slow them down so that you can make your escape. As a symbol the zig zag exists in ancient cultures around the world, it may even be possible that the swastika is another version of a it, there are zig zags on Indian blankets for instance. The origin is probably something to do with covering sight lines (arrows) and thwarting real enemies, the Romans built straight roads (the opposite of a zig zag) for there successful military purposes.

Herb

The symbol of a symbol of a symbol doesn't resemble the origin.

Did you know that the miners and loggers called the peaks " Sheba's Paps" before it was renamed Lions ?

Canada, British Columbia, Vancouver is my chosen home. I respect and learn about the people who lived here since the time begin, their culture, their heritage, their legends and myths. I try to learn more about Japanese Gardens, Japanese people and their believes, arts, myths, symbols, religion, life. I don't call it silly or fairy tales as keithnotrichard or bahamababe repeat in their stupid comments again, again, again. They have nothing else to add to this thread. Are you on the same level( mentaly) as your supporters?

As I said before, you are the master of the English language, you can twist the words, joke about it, but at the end you are still wrong.

Andrea

Andrea -

Andrea, to say that "The symbol of a symbol of a symbol doesn't resemble the origin" is just silly.

The fact is that people don't make the connection with the Lions in Trafalgar Square. They make the connection with real Lions. I know because I have relatives there whose family moved to Vancouver around 1905, before World War I.

And in any event, if this site is right, the explanation that you offer of the name's origin is mistaken too -

Click here

Lee,

You wrote - "....... historic manuals give us clear evidence that the builders of old Japanese gardens built turtle and crane islands and used named rocks (both practices originating in China). These are facts that the editors of JOJG (appearing in GardenWeb under various pseudonyms) call "myths........Unfortunately, that is not what they say, and they keep insisting things which are not myths are myths."

I've just thumbed - rather quickly so I haven't been really thorough - through my collection of JOJG issues, and though I found quite a lot of articles about myths, (including one where they quote the Webster's Dictionary definition of 'myth') I didn't come across any example of the mis-use you are referring to - nor did I find many references to turtle islands.

Where is it that they keep insisting as you allege? Can you point me to the issue(s) that you had in mind?

Or were you referring to a particular posting in this forum? I've found one that said - "....those turtle stories ARE fairytales.." and another that said - "somewhere up above edzard posted some Japanese fairytales about turtles" and when I followed that up it turns out that it was referring to Edzard's quotations from other peoples' postings.

So far, the basis for your general disparagement of the JOJG seems to me to be a bit tenuous.

Herb

Herb ---

Check the JOJG book reviews. Lots of myth bashing and general dissing of reputable authors (including dead ones who can't defend themselves).

Also, yes, check the comments of bahamababe, iamkatiehackett, keithnotrichard, patjonking, Chris74Robinson, etc.

By the way, Herb, I've been convinced for some time that you and I are never going to agree about JOJG, so there's no point in our discussing it. It's just boring for everyone else who has to read the same comments over and over again.

Lee

Ron, Scott,...
the other 8 Fold Bridge is derived from the famous scene in 'Journey to the East' (Azuma-Kudari), episode 9 of the Ise monogotari,.. in which,

Ariwara no Narihara and his followers stop to admire the celebrated eight Fold Bridge over an iris pool in the Province of Mikawa.

This scene is brought into visual reference in 2 ways (and more), yet principally,
as based on the 'design alone' of stepped clumps of iris in a plane of view, which does not have the bridge.
the second perhaps more famous way is the complete view of the zig zag 8 fold bridge 'among' the iris's, which indicates that the scene is specifically referring to the Ise monogotari (Tales of Ise)
(this piece is also the monogram of the Japanese Garden Forum's main page)

the original 2 images were rendered by Ogata Kourin 1715 Attrib'd, (Nezu Art Museum) the most famous, the 2 copies similar as the examples given above are by Uge Houistu hitsu, second panel. (later Kourin's 6 panels are hanging in the Met, New York, -subsection: Rimpa Art, purchase and gift -McBurney)

A footnote to successful planting given the importance of the references would be to having the iris planted in 'movement' (cultivars with leaves that bend) in the first half of the bridge sequence and the 'stillness' (cultivars with upright leaves, not bending) of the second part of the bridge should be attempted when rendering the Eight Fold bridge.

hope this helps,
edzard

Herb

No, it is not right.

Maybe you and your family is so ignorant that they are not interested to learn about this beautiful Province. Why do you believe everything in Google? Who wrote that about Vancouver? Check out respectable authors who know about Vancouver. There are wonderful bookstores and libraries. If you discuss a subject at least learn the facts.
If your relatives arrived 15-20 years after Judge Gray named the peaks Lions, they should have know about it if they cared. People who associate the peaks with real lions must be blind or never seen a lion. Do not make " facts" about your mistakes or ignorance. By the way Google is wrong about "Sheba's Pass" too. It isn't a pass. The name was "Sheba's Paps" , for the less educated it means "Sheba's Tits". No wonder that the lonely miners and loggers dreamt about it.
Check what you wrote about the Lions to see what is silly.

I wanted to correct your misleading information about Vancouver for the benefit of other readers. I'm very proud of my beautiful City.

Andrea

:)))))), oh Herby,.. you old lovebug,..- gotta love how ya bug people.
tsk, tsk, now you are making fun of people's English who's second language is English...
what is your second language?? mine is English.
You can tease me all you want on that score. For a second language, my English is pretty fair and I always try to improve it where I can. --shrug, natural progression, I prefer not to sit around and idle. (elbow to michael)
and now Andrea's and my English is similiar?? thanks, and before this the closest we were related was that her gardener is a friend of mine... ah relationships.

anyway, Forum, thank you for your patience and forebearance,

with some amusement, a lot of head scratching to cue up lagging memory cells followed by significant shuffling of stacks of books and,

-- it appears that Floating Islands have been the basis of the divination of a provinces fortunes for a very long time. Since the Tokugawa regime as a matter of historic reference. (The Tokugawa era, had a marked increase of Horai, Tsuru, Kame -(Elysian) floating Islands shown in their gardens...)

Turns out that in 681, the ninth year of the era of the Hakuho (White Phoenix) during the reign of Emperor Temmu the 40th, Priest En-no-Shokaku first discoverd the floating islands of Lake Ohnuma. In 739 the Priest Gyouki counted 66 islets and named them after the provinces into which Japan was divided.
In 1193, Ohye Hiromoto, Lord of Sagaye of Uzen built the Floating-Islet shrine (Ukishima) and as of November 1947, the then present Shinto priest was the 55th of his line.

The provinces fortune, after which the Islet is named, is divined by what direction (of the 12 directions) the Islet floats in. The largest is named Ohshu and is 10 meters by 2 meters. A few (fuzzy old photograph of three) larger islets have 'luxuriant shrubs' growing on them that appear as islands with mountains and trees. (separate note from elsewhere in the text, that the majority of the islands are only 2m x 1 m)

They move about 'usually in the morning, are still for the day on bright sunny days', - which result in clear cool nights which give rise to fog, through which the Islets are seen to float.

The lake itself is 600m long and ranges from 150 to 350 m wide with a depth of 3 meters with numerous bays, and is 200 feet above sea level and is the bottom of a basin.

Scientifically, the islets consist of sod or rotten leaves of plants (the small ones are covered by only reeds, resulting in a naturally light colored (eggshell) marsh mallowy turtle shapes) and the gases given off from this growths decomposition causes them to float. The lake being so shallow and with bays, does not have a constant temperature, therefore the warming and cooling cycles cause the water to 'be set in motion which drives the Islets from one part of the lake to the other'.

Lake Kobuta 2 Japanese miles (2.5 US/ri ) north of Kusatsu, Gumma Prefecture has 2 floating Islands that consist of lava from Mount Shirane. (hmmmm, Tsuru and Kame? or Horai?

And there are 3 Floating Islands on the lake of the island of Sado, which is located ,............. guess what...... in the Sea of Japan, which is much much closer to Kyoto than Lake Ohnuma.

This information suggests to me that the floating Elsyian Isles, Horai, Kame, Tsuru, etal are a bit more real than just simply fairytales or myths, of which quite possibly 5 may have been eaten.....
and this information suggests their inclusion in gardens would seem a natural choice of 'bringing in' the scenes of travel, far away places -definitely the unusual -floating islands in fog, let alone the images from imported scroll paintings showing where kami like to land or dwell.........

(notes from Yamagata Press, 1937, republished '40, '47, written by Atsuharu, Sakai)

edzard :- (~~~~~~~~~)
Herby,... rainen no koto o iuto Oni ga warau -- have a nice day.

I guess I am going to have to admit to something that I don't usually reveal on these forums. I am a 10,000 year-old turtle. And, I am a myth.

Being ancient and eternal ain't that easy neither is participating in this forum. You try sitting on a chair with a large shell and typing with turtle claws. I don't know much about Japanese gardens. Came over here to learn something. So far, I've found out that learning here is like picking your teeth with a sledge hammer. So let's talk about something that I do know a little about

First of all, I am real. And, myths are real, too.

Myth, particularly in connection with spirituality, uses symbols to convey a truth. The most convenient vehicle for transmitting myth is language itself, but you can also "tell" a myth through the literature of stone or patterns (zig-zags, for instance), form, or color. You can dance a myth, play it on a flute, draw it, even cook one up for dinner. You can even tell the myth by using live versions of its key symbols. I'm sure we could come up with a suitable contract for my turtle services. It's just that one of the subtle intrigues of a good myth is its many disguises, so a direct one to one corespondence, turtle = turtle, doesn't necessitate an adequate potential for contemplation of the myth.

Is a myth a fairytale? Sure, why not, although it might be better to say that a fairytale is one of the forms that a myth can take. Little Red Riding Hood expresses truths about sexual power, gender and age relations, and, at another level, a primal fear of wolves. Do we have to "believe" that a wolf talked to a young woman in the woods, beat her to Grandma's house, ate Grandma burp and then a woodcutter came along and extracted her alive? No, of course not. Do we have to "believe" the truths expressed? No, again, but we may find that they point us to a deeper understanding of those truths as we know them

"Turtle Stones? Oh, those are just stones that are supposed to look like turtles "

I hope not.

Wellspring

edzard, Michael

thank you for your kind words! Your posting is one of the reasons I still read this Forum. I learn a lot from you, enjoy your style and benefit from your knowledge and help.

BTW English is my fifth language, no wonder that it isn't perfect and comes with a strong accent (some European- people guess but very seldom pick the right answer).

Andrea

I have been reading these pages for a relatively short time but have been amazed at the the wealth of information available. It appears that many of you have been participating for some time from the level of familiarity displayed in your postings. I do not know if this familiarity has led to other 'situations' but it could appear to a new reader or an outsider that there is some kind of witch hunt going on. I certainly do not wish to offend anyone, this is just an observation but human nature tends towards 'hunting in packs' which is actually a very inhumane thing to to do.

Ron B

On the subject of tales that tell a truth Craig Clunas, in his excellent book on Ming dynasty gardens, cites a 12th century book on aquaculture to suggest that garden ponds were not merely ornamental. The 12th century source offers commercial breeders of carp advice that includes building an island that will encourage the fish to exercise when they swim around it to eat more and to grow. It can only be a short step from here to making an island resemble one from a painting, one's travels, a myth or an idealized landscape plucked from the imagination.

Wellspring, well said and welcome, and similiarly to Ron B for your contributions and bravery.

Indeed the currents are moving rapidly at the moment with very precious little real information being exchanged or explored. Sadly, it seems that factions have sprung up, which had never existed to this degree before.

These factions, in the last year, seem to be separated into 2 groups that are serious about the Japanese gardens topic, and 'apparently' uses only one source of information to discuss the subjects, of whichthe sharing is then normally reduced to one liners. The greatest difference seems to be that this group is not involved professionally.
The professional group is finally being reduced, not only in people participating, but also in the quality of information being shared, to fending off the lowest denominator of comment, the unexplained 'I don't like it' comment, that can not be dealt with because it is simply 'non-conversational' giving nothing but the comment to reply to or to spinoff of.

The real tragedy of this is that instead of discussing and exploring a topic, sides are taken, which also reduces the shared information to alignments of sides. In the days of expensive pixels, the number of pixels one used determined that bare data was exchanged without the emotional sidebars.
Things change.

If a recommendation were asked for, it would be to ignore the factions, and hopefully, as has happened in the past the professionals will separate again, and yet, unfortunately I can not predict what the non-professional (one liner) faction will do.
Normally, the professionals include 2 topics, one on the subject, the other an optional spinoff, which would be another invitation for what the reader may wish to contribute.
:.
To further the thread of ponds, islands and the garden beneath the pond surface... many Japanese gardens have 'current dividing' stones in the pond itself.
Prof. Sowa in Kyoto, having received permission from the Imperial Family, drained many ponds and made some notes on this subject, though his main focus was to measure in detail the effects of the sounds emanating from waterfalls.
This was measure the decibel and 'note' of the waterfalls, finding the effect it had on the hearing and extropolated the results the human body would have from different points in the garden.
This also corresponded to how different the sounds were when an Island was placed into the hearing 'cone', and the 'sense' that one was near or far from 'a place'.

The sidebar to the water channel directional stones, beyond aquaculture, is that given a certain angle of viewing (angle of visual incidence, Haguchi's terminology) the stones cause a current to create 'ripples' in the surface of the water. These ripples also create a flow of water through temperature fluctuations enabling water rotation through the pond (reduce algae buildup).

As well as practical these ripples seem to be used as a design device to indicate 'movement*', 'floating', 'other land', 'heavens' and simultaneously have under early evenings during the 'moon-viewing', -a silvered flickering 'mirror' effect, similar to the responses caused by a strobe light on the eyes->brain, which induces a lack of focus, = relaxation, cessation of focused thought, up to passing out.

Prof. Sowa, by recommendation and next opportuntiy was going to look at Kinkakuji, which has more than 3 islands in it, one of which is a snake island, and in certain photographs the waves make the islands seem to *move as the 'floating islands' when the ripples 'move lengthwise' through (with?) the warmer water. The combination of all effects is floating, moving, hovering, distancing and variable sound (distance and level of motivation, to relax or move forward based on the decibel level and designed tones in the water (falls).
(imagine the aurora borealis and the wave patterns or the way wind creates fluctuating waves, repeating, yet never staying in the same place)

Though Kinkakuji is still in the conjecture stage, the landscape beneath the waves are design tools, as are islands, the plantings on them, and sound as tool, invited, rebuffs, gives reference, distance, place (wayfinding) and so on,.... all are effective design tools.

to ensure that 'people' find comfortable references, finding 'their' place in this world, myths, legends, fairytales, parables, fables and social comment, are some of the tools that are used... ie: Turtle Islands are tools of reference depending on the 'thought, Author's Intent of the garden.

-sidebar, this post has 5 to 7 spinoffs, for new threads or old, or comments on existing, or whatever, which unfortunately makes my post too long... the idea being to stimulate conversation,...
thanks for reading
edzard

Hi Ron;

Weclome to the forum. Don't be shy. No witch hunts here. We don't seem to get too jammed up when we are sharing information. The troubles start when advice and opinions differ. Throw in some disrespect and the fur starts to fly. Show respect. Get Respect. Pretty simple.

From a design perspective, I have always thought of the zig zag as a powerful tool. I have seen it's use in two scenarios(I am sure there are more though).

Framing views. Bridge over water in a iris bed. My thoughts were it keeps the viewers moving during the bloom period (versus walking in a straight line, looking left and right and running into someone doing the exact thing coming in the other direction).

Manipulating space and time. Someone mentioned Nitschke and I dusted off his "Japanese Gardens" and went to a worn sticky on page 199 where he decribes the design of Jinko-in. "This artificial detour in turn increases the distance that seems to separate the start and end of the path" can be found on page 200.

Maintaining the threads integrity, I think it is pretty cool that zig zags are Obake proof. Makes me sleep better at night.........

Michael

Hi Wellspring, RonB

I join edzard and Michael (with my broken English) to welcome you to this Forum. Amazing people with passion for Japanese Garden, but you can learn much more from them. Endless supply of information about history, art, philosophy, religion and practical gardening, just to mention a few. Some of them seldom post, some of them leave or just give up taking harassment from others.

Andrea

Michael,Andrea and all,

thank you for the welcome and all the information that is shared. Michael, surely there should not be trouble of any kind just because opinions and advice differ. Is'nt that what makes this kind of medium so useful ? Having been reading this thread and others I just thought that some people are a little hard on Herb and his opinions,

thanks again
Ron B

Ron B;

Some clarification is in order. Life would be pretty boring if we all thought the same. However, "trying very hard to make something that looked Japanese", "It looks like something hastily cobbled up for a tourist park", "looks like either a Hollywood minimalist toilet seat or an old spare wheel cover", and "those turtle stories ARE fairytales" do not really contribute to the learning process and are disrespectful to those who came before us or who are actively trying to learn. Photoshopping with a 10 year old's mentality is also included in the above. Posting under various screen names (besides the psychological implications)can also be included.

I may be wrong, but this is the only forum I know of in GardenWeb that includes history, culture, tradition, heritage, and (gasp) religion. You will have advocates and you will have haters. It will get hot at times. Trust me.

Looking forward, a moderated forum would prevent a lot of this from getting out of hand. Heck, turn the IPs on. On other boards that I contribute either/both seem to keep the topics on track. Here, usually a red card or a yellow card is the only thing that slows down the momentum.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong..........

Again, welcome to the board. And, yes, you are catching the movie at the final five minutes. There is a bit of history here. Search back a few months. Posts with more than 25 replies should warrant a look.

Michael

It's amazing how much hot air can be wasted on a subject as stupid and irrelevant as "fairytales" about turtle islands. Herb and Gerald have both tried to talk about actual stone setting but have been largely ignored.

To me, the only worthwhile point of this thread is Lee's intial comment about how myths and fairytales are not the same thing. Yup, that's true, and I agree with her that JOJG is guilty of throwing them both in the same garbage bag. They deserve to be placed in separate garbage bags.

Thanks, Doug.

Lee

KnR;

This is the first time you disparaged JOJG. Congrats!!! I do think you are salvagable.

Michael

Interesting that Japanese mythology put value in myths to the point of creating them around historical figures. Add to that the deification of emperors and shoguns, and it would seem that the mythology of Japan and the history are in many ways, intertwined...

Less interesting than that is the Western need to trash all they cannot see, touch or buy...mythology lacks meaning only to those who lack belief; it's reality to those who do, and should at least garner some respect from anyone who values diverse culture. I can historically take a big dump on Johnny Appleseed, Washington, Jefferson and Franklin Woodrow Wilson as Great Humanitarian, or Ronald Reagan as a decent President, using actual facts and not just opinion, but these modern myths are still held with regard by many in this country, and it does no one any good to trash anothers strongly held beliefs, no matter how tenuous the thread to reality may be...

Was there ever a real Turtle Island or Mt. Horai? Maybe, but they definitely became garden features. Did a Buddhist saint really chase all the foxes from Shikoku? No foxes there anymore, so it must be true...now let's abolish teaching evolution and call it a day...

Scott

KnR, glad to hear you recycle.

Gerald

I guess I should clarify that my last comment was facetious (is there an emoticon for facetiousness??).

My understanding of Doug's statement was that he was trying to say in a clever way that 1) his magazine has been right all along and 2) any facet of turtle islands is unworthy of discussion. So I was thanking him for tossing in the trash all the thoughts and comments on this subject by myself and other posters who made an effort to discuss it intelligently (i.e., based on facts and history, not relying on disparaging, emotion-based one-liners).

Although it's somewhat reassuring that he can make enough of a distinction to put them in separate trash bags, he's still putting the baby in one trash bag and the bathwater in the other.

Lee

So is KnR actually Doug Roth???

Oh yeeeees , "patjonking" too, and who knows how many more ! (split personality!!)

Roth has nothing to do with what I write in this forum. Please do not attribute my words to him. It's likely to insult both of us.

And, yes, I do agree that any facet of turtle islands is unworthy of discussion. That kind of foolishness most certainly makes this forum look like (as J. Skuba claims) "a bunch of wannabes."

Than do not discuss it, stay away from the subject.

Andrea

Gerald ---

Yes, Andrea is right. Of course Tamao Goda (Doug's wife) is also participating in their little ruse, so that accounts for stylistic differences. In addition, Tim Hansken (their "copy editor") is also weighing in under psuedonyms.

This is what several of us have been complaining about for some time now. It's the group we've been referring to as the "Fantastic Five," etc.

They've gotten more clever about planting red herrings to mask their identity. Remember "Watanabe-san"? He was a pretty transparent pseudonym. Be suspicious of any poster who apprears in 2005 out of nowhere, seems to know tons about Japanese gardens, lists no personal information, usually lists no e-mail contact, is fiercly loyal to JOJG, parrots JOJG themes and pet peeves, etc. These psuedonyms are also usually fishing for information (which sometimes appears later in JOJG articles) on broad subjects, and they rarely share any detailed personal experience or information. Never pictures. Of course now that I've said all this it will allow them to adjust their next rash of shills to dodge the profile.

As further evidence of this, since I started complaining about it here on GW my name and business information disappeared from the JOJG website as a designer and builder of Japanese gardens in Maine. I'm honored to join the ranks of the likes of Julie Moir Messervy, Pat Chasse, Marc Peter Keane and Matsuhiko Seko, all Japanese garden designers of the northeast U.S. who are now shunned by JOJG due to their failure to kowtow.

Lee

Lee--

Thank you to clear up this issue for us, less informed readers. I was away this summer when you first wrote about the "Fantastic Five" and your posting was removed (?) I put different comments together and understood what is it all about these attacks on the posters, especially on the talented professionals who gave their effort and time to make this Forum what it is.

These attacks are not clever, they just harass the posters, insult them, provoke them. Their technique, attitude and personality disgust me.

On Dec. 16th, 2005 a new poster registered, " doug roth".

I'm a very amateur gardener, collected many books about Japanese Gardens, but 90% of my knowledge came from this Forum, from the passionate posters who share their ideas, opinion and talent with us.

I would like some information how can I complain to higher power (Spike?).

I wish all of you Peace, Love and Happy Holidays, whatever you celebrate.

Andrea

Andrea --- You can report abuse of the forum to:

abuse@gardenweb.com

It's against the rules to promote your business here, and you're apparently also not supposed to have more than one name/account.

Lee

Lee you are in inestimably good company on the JOJG enemies list; while JMM and MPK aren't going to get listings, like you, I think they will survive...

Edzard, the floating islands thing is a fascinating look at how reality becomes myth. Hope we don't see a diatribe against reality anytime soon...

Scott

I'm loyal to JOJG and no one is paying me to say anything in their behalf. It's a great publication and an excellent educational resource.

BTW, if 90 percent of your knowledge came from this forum, then your knowledge level is pretty miserable. No offense, but there's not a lot of information here. Plenty of hot air, though.

A fair amount coming from you Bill. Hot air being empty of any substantive content by definition. Add something to the discussion why doncha instead of sitting on the fence with nothing much to say other than to lob a jibe at Andrea.

Yes, Bill, why don't you share some impressions and information about the gardens you're visiting? For instance, did you ever go to the Nozaki Estate? I think most of the posters on this forum are outside Japan, so you could contribute a current perspective.

Lee

Not a fan of the forum Archer? I've a suggestion then. Post your superior knowledge here and elevate us to your lofty station...

Waiting anxiously...

Scott