C3D,
When you talk about why it is considered a more special variety most of it is in the eyes of the beholder. Then there is also the thought that butterflies are not true koi. But most of these people would say that doitsu is a true koi. One thing about Platinum Ogons is that they will sometimes pick on butterflies.

Are some varieties hardier than others? The answer is yes. A lot of it has to do with the quality of the fish. The higher the quality of the fish the less hardy it is. Usually Kohako's are usually the lest hardy. The closer the koi is to the natural carp the hardier it is.
Mike

Hi Mike.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my question !

Personally I like the look of the Butterflies more than the Ogon but that is my eye, ehh? :-) So far the Ogon has not been seen picking on the Butterflies but seems to like the company of a pair of Comets and hangs out with them.

Thanks again!

Chick a Dx3

Hello,

This raises some questions in my mind, and please bear with me, as I know very little about koi. My husband and I planned on purchasing 3 koi this spring. One of which we was a platinum gin rin butterfly. This is not the same thing is it? I ask because we already have 5 butterfly koi.

I'd appreciate any information on this.

Thanks
Carolyn

Carolyn,
Let's take a look at the name and what it tells us. First is Platinum which is white normal in reference to a metallic skinned fish. But what you wrote as the name did not indicate that it was metallic. Second is Gin Rin which is silver shiny scale. Than Butterfly which is a long finned fish. Because it is a butterfly it would not be a true Platinum Ogon if it was a Ogon. So it will not be a problem and not all Platinum Ogons are a problem it is just that they are the only type of koi that have demosrated this type of behavior. Next thing you are going to want to know is what make a fish metallic. If you look at the top of the head it will have a shiny metal look to it.
Mike

Mike,

Thank you. I was hoping because the fish I want is a butterfly, that it would not be an issue.

Carolyn

CD3- Here is a link to a geneology chart. I think there is an error in the chart- one of the utsuri should be a bekko, but none the less it is a good reference.

Lisa

Here is a link that might be useful: Koi geneology chart

Thank you Goodkarma!

That is a very nice reference. I had no idea there were so many. Need to make plans to a larger pond for the spring.

ChickaDDD :-)

Wow! Neat chart. I may actually have some of those color combos!

Yes that is a neat chart but it only covers a few of the different varieties that are out there. Question for everyone what is the variety that is on the chart that is suppose to have red eyes?
Mike

Ooooo. A quiz. :-)

Is it a Kigoi ?

Chick with 3Ds

C3D,
Yes you are correct. I have a Kigoi. It is a beautifull yellow fish with dark red eyes. Lisa I would agree with you that the middle shiro utsuri should be a shiro bekko.
Mike

Hi again Mike.

Another question if I may... (I don't want to abuse your generosity with your information.)

BTW ... THANK YOU for being so nice with your information and how you present it to everyone! :-)

Do you know if the Kigoi would have an increased likelihood of eye problems due to the red pigmentation like mammals would have as a result of sunlight exposure? Are they better kept in a shaded pond?

C3D

C3D,
I am happy to answer any questions that I can. To answer your question I do not know. I can tell you about the one that I have and if that is normal for all of them so be it. My koi pond is not shaded at all except for a bridge that goes across the pond. I do not see this fish staying out of the sunlight at all. It will come up and suck on the fingers like most of the fish in the pond. It will stick its head out the water to ask for food like the rest of them. It acts just like any other koi in the pond. Most fish don't rely on eye sight ever much at all un like mammals.
Mike

Thanks again Mike!

I was thinking about this on the way to work and perhaps the damaging UV rays don't bother the red eyed fish through water? The mammals and birds are more prone to eye damage and early cataract formation with the lack of iris pigmentation.

Another thing to make one say: Hmmmmmmm. :-)

Thanks!

C3D

So are there kois that are considered "mutts"(for lack of a better term) as you have for a dog or cat? Or does every koi technically have a "name" due to it's color?

For instance, I have a solid whitish/gold koi, but it's not metallic. I also have a solid blackish one with gold fins (this is a cool looking koi).

Some of these kois for sale on eBay are stunning, but I have to tell you my hand would shake a little too much to hit "submit bid" for a $1000 fish! lol

Any koi that does fit a type of koi falls into the Kawarimono class which is all other koi. Without seeing a picture of the koi it is very difficult to correctly name it.

I have spent over a $1000.00 on a koi before and I would never think about doing with just a picture to go by. I have seen fish that photograph very poorly or that look a lot better in pictures. Spending that kind of money I would want to see the fish in person.
Mike

This is going to drive me nuts. You are all talking about the way the fish looks but no one mentions it's heredity. Surely that must be part of the equasion. Why pay so much if you don't have any idea of what the progeny will look like or how previous generations looked. If you go just by looks, you're going to get a lot of mutts. Sandy

That's in essence what I was wondering. If you're going to pay $1000 or more for a koi, does it come with something like the equivalent of "papers"?

My guys are from the local pet store, so somehow I don't think I have any "champions" in my line, lol. But, I do have some that fit the descriptions of various types color wise, to actually call something an "Ogon" or whatever, it just seems there should be a lineage involved.

What you are missing is that instaed of having just a few babies at a time like a dog koi will have 200,000 babies at a time. Of that 200,000 in japan maybe 2,000 will be sellable. Of that 2,000 about 1800 will be gotten rid of at a very small size because they are not good enough to raise to a larger size. Of the 200 that are left 180 will be sold at one year old again they don't show promise. Out of the 20 that are left maybe 2 or 3 might be worth that $1000.00 +. So if you are buying a fish for breeding you are going to have a lot of fish babies that are not worth anything. If dog breeder had to go thru this they would be out of business.
Mike

That's an interesting topic! Here's a question: For example, if Mr. and Mrs. Ogon have fry .... would they all be Ogons or would other colour combinations show up?

I'm thinking that unless the colour is because of a genetic double chromosome thing like xx or oo, there may be other variants resulting from such a breeding. Am I close? :-)

ChickaDDD

ChickaDDD, Quite a few are going to revert back to the original carp. It takes about three generations for all the babies to be like the carp that they come from. This is also true with goldfish. Some will have different colors to them and some will be ogons. Ogons tend to breed with a fairly high percentage being ogons because there is only the one color to begin with.
Mike

Thanks again for the information! :-)

C3D

Wow, fascinating thread! Mike, do you need a wagon to carry that brain around with you? LOL I just realized that I have a beautiful Shiro Bekko and didn't even mean to. :)

Ademink, I think you mean a match box wagon right. I don't even know if they still make match box toys. You don't see many becko's anymore so you are lucky. Magnoi use to have some of the best in world but they have gotten away from them.
Mike

I have only one Ogon of pure solid white. He is not a butterfly. I got him a few years ago. The fish store said he/she was imported from Bankok. What is nice about the white koi is they do stand out in the pond. My husband could not understand..why would i get a solid color koi when there are so many variety of patterns of color koi. I think it is nice to have both. I also have a 2 solid yellow koi, one is what they call a ginrin yama butterfly. The other is a bright solid yellow regular style. I guess when you see a lot of pattern koi, it is nice for a change to have a few solid ones in the bunch.
Theresa

Nope, definitely a bonafide chuckwagon, Mike. LOL

Gwen may not be a show quality becko but she's perfect to me! :) I may even be misdiagnosing her but let me down gently LOL (she's on the left). Her head isn't usually this peachy looking, she usually has a whiter head like ol' Kirby on the right (by the way, any clue what he is?).

Ademink, Right now she is a shiro bekko but it looks like there is black coming up on the head as it gets older and will end up being a Shiro Utsuri which I like better than Bekkos.
Mike

But mike....just having black on it't head won't turn a bekko into a Utsuri anymore than having black on the head turning a sanke into a showa. A bekko is from Sanke genetics....it is basically a sanke with no red. A utsuri is a showa with no red. The black on the head of a bekko is just a misplaced mark...not one that will throw it into a different class. Signs that this fish is indeed a bekko are the stripes in the pec fins. If it was a utsuri, the black in the pecs would be more like what you would see in a showa....totally black or large areas of black and not stripes. the black on the body would also be more banding and not spots. Does that make sense?

Cindy

Gwen is having an identity crisis. LOL

Cindy, I sorry to have to disagree with you but that is a young Shiro Utsuri and not a bekko. New style shiro utsuri very rarely have totally black fins but have the black stripping in the fins. The new style shiro utsuri has very little black on it unlike the old style that has a lot of black.
Mike

Well I'll disagree to, but it's that it is not a shiro, and not really a very good bekko either. The color on the head looks more like the skull color, not black coming. The head needs to be whiter (in an ideal world) and is why the skull shows through. It could whiten as it gets older.

Not sure where the idea is from that shiros utsuri's don't have much black on them now?
[img]http://www.keirinponds.com/fishpics/om1004.jpg[/img]

Not my fish..I'd like it however... Nice Shiro Utsuri either way.

It is very common for young fish to have the skull show through and the white to thicken as the fish gets older. New style shiro's, Showa's and Sanke's have very little black on them. I still prefer the old style with more black. When that fish gets older the black will come up on the head and the white will thicken.
Mike

You guys totally missed that the middle "shiro" is labeled as matsukawbake. Think of it as a scaled (wagoi) kumonryu. I don't why they chose to show the color change on that one and not the kumonryu. I used to have a matsukawabake before I lost my koi to bgd. I picked it out by accident as just an interesting dusty looking little koi then winter came and he turned mostly white...that's when I started looking into it. It is rarely one the koi charts. I'm not sure if it's because it is considered worthless or just rare.

Adrea