You are so right! Everyone who keeps Koi needs to know about this virus.KHV is a huge problem. And it would be horrible to lose your whole collection to one misstep.I know first hand...we built our pond last year with optimal filtration and did everything right, but we were losing fish left and right.Finally, one of the employees at the pond store where we bought our fish told us the truth..they had a bad shipment and had to destroy all the fish.They never scoped and scraped, but they felt strongly it was KHV.So I added two new fish from a reputable dealer and have had no problems since.I will only put fish in my pond from this dealer.She tests every fish that comes to her from Japan as well as her own stock. Every other fish will go into Qtank for months!
Trust no one and be careful!

Some of your information is correct and some is not. Heating the water to 87 degrees helps to cut down the losses. But besides that Iseral has figuired out a way to beat KHV. All fish from Iseral have been exposed to KHV and are not carriers. The fish will never get KHV again. Nobody knows for sure how they are doing it but they expose and inject the fish with live KHV with a marker attached. They do this when the fish are very young. They use a marker so that they can tell if any other fish gets KHV from them. They have been doing it for years and no other fish have ever come down with KHV from them and none of the fish they sell have ever come down with KHV.
Mike

Mike, The people in the US have also done a lot of research with KHV and there are conflicting reports about if the Isreal fish are truely "cured" of the disease, or if they are just carriers. True...heat treating a fish can drive the disease into dormancy....but heat treated fish can still be carriers. It has not been proven in this country that it actually is effective, and until I hear it from a Country and from researchers who I TRUST.....I will not have a fish from Isreal anywhere near my pond.

Isreal has been doing this for close to five years with every fish being infected with live KHV and if they were all carriers KHV would be breaking out all over the world in vast amounts from these fish. I would probably agree with you about having Isreal fish. But I would have to say that they probably know more about KHV than anyone in the world. To dismiss their work would be a big mistake.
Mike

I won't dismiss the Israeli findings, but do I trust them to be correct? Who is policing them? Themselves? Not gonna trust them to know enough to put Israeli heat treated koi in my pond!

exactly.....they are policing it themselves.

-Good thread!-
I agree that Israel's work with KHV is something we can't forget, but there is a reason Israeli koi are banned from many koi shows. I am not bashing the Israelis,they have some fine koi. The method of "curing" the disease is questionable and unproven. I don't trust it as ccoombs said. I probably won't have Israeli koi anytime in this life....
Israel has found a way to cheat KHV, but it is still there. They are carriers after being heat treated, the virus is still present, and that to me is not "cured".
That said...

*Know your Dealer
*Quarantine Quarantine QUARANTINE!!!

Also, there are a few research groups who need some
funding to continue the fight. If you google it, you can find some sites who take donations. It is a great cause.

---Kenny--

There is way too much still unknown about KHV, and to date there is no verifiable cure. Some koi do survive, they then do remain carriers. I would not take a chance in my pond, they are my pets.

So what are the symptoms??

I never said that Israel was heat treating fish to cure the fish. That was devoloped in this country. From what I can gather is that they are treating KHV virus much as you might viruses that affect humans like chicken poxes or mumphes. If you contract them as a child and get over them you can never get them again and you are not a carrier. Let an adult get the smae disease and it can be deadly. I assume what Israel is doing is exposing the fish at a very young age to a weaken strain of the virus and letting the fish build antibodies to it and the fish will never get it again. This appoarch is very close to how alot of viruses that affect humans are treated.
What Israel has done is proved that is possible to beat KHV but it has to be bread into the fish. They have proved thousands of times that when done they way they do it the fish are not carriers. Israel got blamed for a lot of the KHV when they should not have. The only thing about Israel is they were honest about having a problem which is something I can't say about a lot of other countries including the US. You may or may not know that Dr Kebus is the first to find KHV and it was found in Chicago. The fish that were found to have were not from Israel. Israel didn't have a problem until two years later. If you look back at the little bit that Japan has said about disease out breaks it is clear that it probably started there back in the early 90's. But Japan is very closed mouthed about anything to do with disease with koi.

Yes there is no cure for koi that has gotten KHV but Israel has probably done what no body else has been able to do and that is produce a fish that will not get KHV and is not a carrier. To Israel koi are a science and to everyone else they are an art. Millions of koi from Israel have been sold over the last few years all over the world and there has been not a single case of there fish causing or breaking out with the disease.

To Israel credit they have been honest about the problems they have had with KHV and it just about distroyed the koi industry there. Where everyone else has either denied or kept quit about the problems they have had as not to hurt there business and the disease has spread.
Mike

Heating the koi to 88 degrees causes the virus to go dormant, but this does not cure the fish. The virus can lay dormant for years sometimes. It is not purely temp based either, stress and overall heath of the koi plays a factor. once a koi contracts the virus it has it for the rest of its life. If the virus is dormant then it will not spread it. It must be "shedding" the virus for another to contract it. So forcing the virus dormant will cause it to "test" negative, that doesn't mean it is cured.

But the isralies are doing some interesting things this past year. More then just heat cycling, and they have gotten some attention. But no proof has been given that what they have done actually works.

As for not getting it? QT, QT, QT.

The Israllies do not heat the fish to force the virus to go dormant that was developed by doc Johnson. What the Israllies are doing is treating it like you might if it was a human virus. As most childern in this country have been treated for viruses. I don't have all the details but what have done is beaten the virus. Where everyone else is trying to save adult fish they have is raised fish that are immune from getting it. It won't do anything for an adult fish.
Mike

I am not 100% sure either but from what I understand they are exposing the koi to low levels of the virus several times when they are young and creating a koi that is immune. Kinda like when we get chicken pox as a kid, then we are immune and can't get it again. According to them their koi do not break with KHV, but I am not convinced that they cannot spread it to others. time will tell.

The Israeli breeders had HUGE problems with KHV in the past and because of this they have become the worlds leader in studies for cures for KHV. I read somewhere that their findings are being used as a model for developing cures for other human diseases. They also produce some very high quality koi. However I am not ready to buy them....not yet. The simple fact that they have been intentionally exposed to the virus scares the beejeebas out of me.

Yes that is true but the virus they are exposing them to has a marker on it and if any koi that these fish are in with if they breakout with KHV from these fish would have the marker. They have doing it for a few years now and no other fish has very broken out KHV with this marker.
Mike

I learned the hard way.I add 4 small koi to my 4500 gallon pond that had 10 koi from the 24" to the 19" range and just wiped me out. My goldfish are fine and I have one small koi left that I will take out and put in a tank by himself. But question is how long do I wait before I add new koi. I do know that the virus will not stay in the water without a host. But how long and is they anything I need to do to the water? Please help before I add new koi which I had bought from a dealer. I have them in a kid pool. Just not sure when to add them to the pond. e-mail me Kimantnee@earthlink.net

the one koi you have left should be destroyed. At the very least it will spread it to others. sooner or later it will die a very miserable death.

Goldfish are not effected by KHV nor are they carriers. BUT, I would remove them from the pond, then drain the pond and steralize everything in it with bleach...filters, pumps, plumbing, nets, everything. Then refill and dechlor to remove the residue bleach and run the system for a few days to make sure all the chlorine from the bleach treatment has evaporated. Once you test and show no chlorine, then add the goldfish back into the pond, but don't let their water (original water from the KHV pond) get mixed into the new clean pond.

I just want to tell you that I didn't do anything to my pond execpt remove one of my last koi that I had in the pond and I left my goldfish in the pond. I let the water sit for 7 or 8 days then I add some koi to it and they are doing fine its been 4 days since I add the fish and there are dong fine. I don;t know how long it thkes before you should problems with the fish but so far so good. I will keep you posted on what is going on.

So you added more koi to a KHV infected pond without cleaning out or even draining the pond???? Is this some twisted experiment to see if they will die? why not at the very least add some bleach, drain and then refill?? Its not really all that hard. You are playing Russian roulette with these fish, you might get lucky but is it worth the risk? If you are wrong they will die a horrible ugly death.

How long it takes can vary from fish to fish. usually if the fish do not break after being above 72 degrees for 2-3 weeks then you are probably fine. But the fact is the virus can lay domrant for months waiting for a moment of weakness in the fish to show itself.

But if there is no host in the water how can the virus survive? From what I have beed reading it needs a host no host no virus. Also I was in contact with 2 people one is from Georgia Univesity "Vickie" who does alot of research on KHV and the other was a guy named Mark Morrone you may know him from Martha Stewart. They both told me a host has to be in the water for the virus to survive. And bleaching is a bigger problem what about all the plants that I have in the pond the bleach won't affect them. OK so you take them out of the water then what? Put them back in after the bleach? Won't the virus stay on the plant? What just wipe the plants clean of any water and the virus is gone? No because the virus won't stay on plants. So why do I need to bleach the water? If there is no Host? I also have goldfish in the same pond what about them? You think by taking them out of the water before bleaching then add them back in without the water they were in won't contaminate the water? So I should dry the goldfish off also before putting them back in also? NO HOST NO VIRUS :-)

ok, good luck! I'm keeping my fingers crossed for your fish!

Keep in mind VERY LITTLE is truly known about this virus. Its is very hard to say it can or can't survive w/o a host because it goes dormant very easily. Also we don't know how long in can survive w/o a host. It has been proven to survive a few days for sure.

as for plants, you can dip them quickly in a bleach solution then rinse clean water. remove the goldfish by hand into a clean tub of water, hold them there for a few days then remove by hand back into the pond.

some very simple steps could have removed the risk factor. Maybe you will be ok, but after losing all your fish I would think that maybe you wouldn't want to mess around and take chances again.

but its your pond and your fish, so you can do what you want.

I hope it works out!

There is some research that suggests that the virus can live in water, without a host, for up to 20 hours (or longer), however it is acknowledged that more research is needed.

KHV research has shown that KHV may have some sensitivity to oxidizing agents. There have been some early experiments done with potassium permanganate, H2O2, and methylene blue that have shown some results, but it is acknowledged that more research is needed.

Regarding the protection of plants, there are some virucides (for example Physan 20) that can be used on plants to protect them from transmitting viri. As with all things, read the manufactures directions of use.

Regarding heat, there seems to be some conflicting information as to the true effect that heat has on KHV. Some experiments have shown that lower temperatures allow for KHV to go dormant, which afford the infected fish some time to build up antigens, then raising the temperature to a point above where the virus is active allowing the fish to quickly ward off the virus. Because this practice has been acknowledged as very experimental, this is not a suggested practice.

Regarding how long it takes for KHV to show up in the fish, it has been noted that it can take up to two weeks after virus contact to start showing symptoms of a virus infection. After the symptoms are present, it can take another 2 weeks for death to start affecting the fish. Of course, viri do not follow man-set "rules-of-thumb," so it could take longer or be very quick. With that said, the two week time frame seems to be common.

When quarantining your new fish for at least 3 to 4 weeks, you should select a "sacrificial" koi from your current healthy pond to place with the new fish. This will allow the new fish to have a "buddy," and it will give you an idea of the potential of infection if the "sacrificial" koi becomes ill.

Selected References:

K. H. Hartman, R. P.E. Yanong, B. Denise Petty, R. Francis-Floyd, A. C. Riggs. "Koi Herpes Virus (KHV) Disease" University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Science, Electronic Data Information Source. http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM113

M. Crane, M. Sano, C. Komar. "Infection with koi herpesvirus-Disease Card" http://library.enaca.org/Health/DiseaseLibrary/Infection_with_koi_herpes_virus_Disease_Card.pdf

D. Pokorova, T. Vesely, V. Piackova, S. Reschova, J. Hulova. "Current knowledge on koi herpesvirus (KHV): a review" Vet. Med. Â Czech, 50, 2005 (4): 139Â147. http://www.vri.cz/docs/vetmed/50-4-139.pdf

Associated Koi Clubs of America. "AKCA Guide to Koi Health." Ed. Burt Ballou. Midway City: Associated Koi Clubs of America, Inc. 2000.

dmcunningham, Some very good information. The problem is that there probably more that is not known about KHV than is known about it. The one thing that I might add to what you said about exposure and out break time period is the water temp has to be in the right range or the outbreak time increases until the water gets warm enough again. The other thing would be that not every pond exposed to KHV will have an outbreak. I don't know this for a fact but from what I have seen. Every year the MPKS has a two trade shows a year. Different vendors sell fish and some have sold fish that have KHV but every pond that these fish have gone into have broken out with KHV. They should have but they didn't or haven't yet. Last year a vendor right after the show started loosing all thier fish and it was confirmed by the U of GA that he had KHV. Some of the ponds that some of the fish that brought went into broke out and some were confirmed to be KHV but not every pond broke out even though the fish were brought from the same vat of fish. This last May another vendor I believe sold fish that had KHV. I believe that at least ten ponds were wiped out by KHV but I know of at least one where the fish appear to be healthy. The other thing is that in both instances the fish also had parasites. The ponds that were treated early for parasites seem to be the ponds that the KHV didn't breakout and the ones where fish already started dying from the parasites were the ones that KHV broke out in.
Mike

Mike,

Its possible that some koi NEVER contract KHV. They are not carriers either, they are simply immune. According to the lab I send my swabs to for PCR testing this will occur in about one out of every 1000 koi. they are completely immune. This is what the Israelies are attmepting to reproduce.

Also, different peoples ponds are different temps. It has been shown that above 85 degrees the virus goes dormant again, so if somebody had a shallow pond in full sun, that might explain why they never had an outbreak.

Thanks for the discussion. I have had a summer from hell. I lost 12 big ones - 10-12 years old and another 15 smaller ones 6 - 12 inches. I have frantically changed filters, water, food - yet every day, there seems to be another floater. After about 15 years without a problem, this summer has been a disaster. Thanks for your explanation. It sure seems to fit.

edy....have you added any new fish or plants recently? KHV doesn't just show up out of nowhere. Its usually brought in with another fish.

so far you had over 27 fish. I assume more if any are still alive. How big is your pond? there are several parasites that look like KHV and kill fish just as quickly. Can you describe what the dead koi look like? Have you inspected the gills? What is the current temp of your pond? Can you give me some basic test reading? ammonia, nitrites, kH, pH, etc.

Surfhead, I haven't looked at this site in a while but the Israelies are not trying to reproduce koi that are naturally immune. They are making very small koi immune by exposing them to KHV. This is the way a lot of human are made immune to viruses. By doing this they can raise fish that will never get KHV or so they claim.
Mike

Surfhead
Thanks for your response. Yes, I added about a dozen small koi like I do every year. They came from four different sources. And being a trusting soul, I did not quarantine them.
About the ponds, each is about 2000 gallons, in operation for about 15 years. Both use a biological filter with supplemental bacteria and lots of plants in a bog to manage the wastes. All measures of water quality were normal, Ammonia, Nitrates, kH, pH, etc. Water temperature is upper seventy's after a week of temperatures in the upper 80's. I have always changed fish back and forth between ponds without giving it any thought.
No, I have not inspected the gills of the dead fish. I am not sure what to look for. I am not even sure what healthy gill look like. There is no outside evidence of disease. Eyes are clear, No discoloration. No apparent trauma. The speed at which this kills is amazing. In one case, I watched a very happy 22 inch female and in an hour, She was dead. There were two more dead on Friday (one 10 inch and one 6 inch) and another on Saturday.
I do not have the facilities for heat treating the fish. I think my only choice is pull them out as they die, to hold off buying any more, add a few goldfish and add one or two koi at a time in a year or two to see if they survive.
Any other suggestions?

From what I was told don't add new fish intil you get rid of the rest. Even if the "killing" stops and there are survives they may still carry KHV or be hosts. So get rid of all the koi or put them into one pond and don't move them any more. I waited 7 or 8 days before add new fish. I was also told 3 or 4 days will do but I was out of town. Thing are going well no fish has died after waiting. Nothing was add to the water. Its been 5 of 6 weeks at least.

Mike, I think that's exactly what I said several posts higher...they are intentionally exposing them to low levels of KHV to build up a natural immunity. When I said the isralies are tryign to reproduce this, that's what I meant.

edy, next time a koi dies, pack it on ice and send it to a lab for tests. I use R.A.L. Inc in Texas. give them a call...972-960-2221. If it is KHV (and it sounds like it is), then I am very sorry to say you need to destroy your entire collection of koi...goldfish are fine though. To be safe, remove all living things, drain the pond, refill with clean water and bleach, then drain and hose out the pond. Then refill and add LOTS of dechlor. let sit for a week or so to make sure no bleach remains and then add your goldfish and plants back into the pond.

I won't kill the rest I would put them in the seperate pond and stop moving them around because you may have some that are immuned. But I would send 2 or 3 fish to have them tested. Because 1 might show as false but 3 will at least show up. I would also go to the U of G in Athens Ga. they also do testing for $38.00 a fish I think.The women there Vickie Vaughn she just got married and I don't know her married name does alot of reseach for KHV. As for cleaning or bleaching well you saw my last posting. The way I was told about the virus is NO HOST NO VIRUS. Just like Human Herps. No contact no virus.

I'm sorry, but kimantnee is taking this virus WAY too lightly. It is something that is threatening the ENTIRE koi industry. Breeders and koi farms have lost MILLIONS to the virus. Please take the proper steps to be CERTAIN the virus is removed from your pond. So little is really known about this virus. cleaning the pond is a simple step to protect your future koi and help keep the virus from spreading.

IF you test positive, please destroy your stock. Its actually the humane thing since most will surely die a horrible painful death. a few might survive, but they will ALWAYS carry the virus and spread it to others for as long as they live. There are humane ways to put them down.

Maybe I'm taking it lightly because they are fish not my mother. And you are taking it to the limit. You must be a KOI seller or KOI mill "just like a puppy mill". I myself is a koi collector. I prefer to collect koi that are diease free. So maybe we should talk to the people that SELL us these KOI. I got my diease from a reputable pet store and they just thought nothing of it. The thing that they did was give me replacemnet koi. I was going into that store every day to monitor what they were going to do with there Koi they didn't destroy there fish or clean out all the tanks that were connected. WHY? Because they need to make money. So it doesn't start at the buy it starts at the sell. And what is the humane way to put down a fish?

I am a koi dealer and I have spent countless hours trying to learn everything I can about KHV. You are correct there are a lot of dealers out there that don't test for KHV, QT new arrivals or even know what KHV is. fish come in and they go out and they could care less. I don't operate like that, I take great lengths to make sure all the koi I have in stock are KHV free before I mix them with any of my other stock or sell them. But it doesn't stop with the seller. The buyer has some responsibility as well to protect their existing collection by quarantining all new arrivals. Most pet stores or aquarium/fish stores don't have the foggiest idea what KHV is and they are the biggest reason KHV spreads so quickly. your pet store does not sound at all reputable when it comes to koi. Koi dealers, who only deal in koi, tend to know a lot more about KHV and take steps to protect themselves and their customers.

as for putting down a fish in a humane way, you add clove oil or eugenol to about 5 gallons of water. It is an anesthetic. The fish will quietly become numb, but still be alive. This is the method used to give fish injections, treatments and even surgery. If removed from the clove oil mix and put back into fresh water they revive in a few minutes. If left in the clove oil for a longer period of time they will go to sleep and die feeling nothing. some like to put them in the freezer once the clove oil has done its job...just to make sure they don't wake up later on.

If you are trying to learn everthing about the virus how come all you people are tell us to bleach everthing. By wiping out the virus could be a bad thing. How do you learn from something if it gone? Consider what I did as a test. Most of my fish have died. The remremaining 1 was destroyed. I waited 8 days before adding any new fish. So far my fish are doing fine. My pond is 4500 gallons its 12x22 2.5 feet deep. I'm showing no signs of the virus and it been 6 or 7 weeks. Can't we learn from this? If the fish start dying I will have them tested to see if it KHV. The virus is stress related right. I was out of town and my pond over flowed and I lost most of the water. My neighbor add tab water to the pond then add dechlor and the fish are still fine. That should have been stressful enough. Right? And if thing go wrong I willl let you know because this is the way we learn not by bleaching. And I won't add any new fish to the pond because it well stocked again.

How do we get the sellers to become KHV free or test them for KHV before selling fish to pet store?

kimantee,

There are many qualified vets and specialists who are preforming many tests, the last thing we need is hobbiests exposing their koi the KHV just to see what happens. you got lucky, but please don't go telling people to do the same. Steralizing the pond and all equipment is 100%...your method is 50/50 at best. Why are you SO against this? Its not like its hard or cost any money.

How do we get dealers to test for KHV? only buy from those that do and tell everybody you know to only buy from those that do. But even that is not a guarantee. You need to protect yourself and QT all your new koi. I know I am KHV free right now and I STILL tell people to QT.

I did talk to 2 people that are very familiar with the virus. Vickie Vaughn is one of the top people doing research on this virus. I took her advice and things are fine. And I also look here for it. I'm not against doing thing that will make a difference. But I choose to listen to a expert with a degree in the subject.

QT is a great idea. For a lot of reasons. But will it work with khv?

Just for thoughts.I QT my fish and the virus is dormant I wait 6 weeks of QT. I add the new fish to my pond the koi stess out and has a breakout and kills all my fish again. What are the chance that this will happen?

One my question. If I have 3 of my fish tested and the virus is dormant will it shows as a postive of khv?

If you have 3 fish tested that are carriers, but dormant, the test will be positive for the presence of antibodies. A fish that has been vaccinated will also test positive for antibodies. Fish that survive KHV may stay well for week, months, or even years. they may not shed the virus all the time either (meaning they won't infect other fish). They may go for a period of time before shedding the virus and infecting other fish, which is why it is important to destroy all koi that were exposed to KHV unfected fish.

Vickie Vaughn will be the first to tell you there is still a LOT we don't know about his virus and I highly doubt she said to wait two weeks and the virus is 100% gone. I'd like to see a published paper by her or anybody else on this fact.

As for QT, when dealing with one fish it does almost nothing as this koi could be a carrier or have the virus be dormant and test negative. Adding known KHV free koi into a QT with a suspect fish greatly increases your odds. the more you add the greater the probability of an accurate test. Plus there are some pretty accurate tests out there that can be done by drawing blood and not killing the koi. The best time to test is at the importer/dealer when he orshe has hundreds of koi from the same place. Test and heat cycle all those koi and you can be reasonably certain of an accurate test.

surfhead,

You just said it yourself the importer/dealer should test. How do we make that happen?

Doesn't the goverment have any say in this since it can destroy stocks of fish?

I don't believe this but there a person selling koi that says that she is ceterfied by the USDA for virus KHV free fish. Can this be true?

And still my fish are doing fine.

I am glad your fish are doing fine. But you got lucky IMO.

KHV is not a reportable disease in the US since it does not effect humans or any food fish. so really they could care less. In fact some consider carp an invasive species and are more then happy to have wild populations destroyed by KHV.

So any dealer that says they are USDA approved for KHV is lying to sell fish. perhaps they availed themselves of the testing facility at some government funded lab and they are stretching the truth a wee bit.

how do we get the dealers to test? right now its the power of the dollar. If they don't test, don't buy from them. That and inform yourself and others of KHV. The more informed the general public is the more likely dealers are to test. MOST reptuable koi dealers do test though. Pet stores and garden centers mostly don't, but those that specialize in koi know full well what this disease can do to their business and will test and QT every fish they bring in.

Does a UV Radiation filter kill this virus?

No,

UV will not kill it.

wow, this is an old thread! So much has changed in the last couple years.....some good, mostly bad. There are now several different strains of KHV, meaning the virus is mutating. It is just as deadly as ever. Heat cycling a fish to force the virus to show it's self has been found to be of little benefit. Putting a niave fish from your own collection while the new fish is in QT is also of little benefit (at least for the purpose of KHV detection). The only way to know for sure is to have new fish blood tested, which is usually done by the dealer since drawing blood is outside the ability of most hobbiests. A KHV survivor can live with the virus for a long time and not show any ill effects for a long time. How long? Unknown at this time. But like the chicken pox virus in humans comes back as shingles in adults, the KHV virus can live in a koi or goldfish for a long time and then the fish can start to shed the virus again, killing other pond inhabitants. So my advise?

1. Only buy fish from trusted sources.
2. Only buy from dealers who test the fish for the active virus, and also the antibodies.
3. destroy ALL fish that have been exposed to KHV or assume the risk that these fish can infect others later down the road.

Pretty scary stuff. Be careful.