Truly odd... this topic has come up fairly often lately; and having experienced some of the same frustration, Bellatrix, I know where you are coming from.

I think we are all confused.

All of the "runner cannellini" beans that I have thus far seen or read about, turned out to be P. coccineus, regardless of how they were identified. For some reason, the white runner beans from Europe are frequently misidentified; sometimes as limas, sometimes as P. vulgaris. I have also been sent white "runner beans" that upon examination & planting, turned out to be limas. Confusing indeed.

It may be a question of language; perhaps cannellini is a term used to describe many types of beans that are similar in appearance (white), or usage. Hopefully someone from "across the pond" could shed some light on this.

I have also been searching for the elusive "pole cannellini", so far unsuccessfully. "Gigande" seems to refer to both a runner bean & a lima; logical I suppose, given that both are large seeded. I grew the lima last year, obtained under one of its synonyms "Hija" (it did not mature for me). And I grew one of the white runner beans in 2005 - it is completely different, in terms of taste & texture, from the bush cannellini.

The search goes on... I will be watching this thread.

However, I have found white-seeded pole beans that were similar to cannellini. One that I grew last year, an heirloom called "Brita's Foot Long", had large white seeds of very fine quality... perhaps that is as close as I will come to the real thing.

Hi there! I'm also very interested in this thread. I was sorely disappointed when I purchased what were labeled as "pole cannellini" from SSE a few years ago, and they turned out to be runner beans bellatrix seeks. I gave the extra seed away (sorry, bella!) They did not taste anything like the yummy, authentic cannellini bush beans I grow every year. I too seek the elusive pole version, as I want to give only two beds to bush beans ("Flagrano flageolet" and "Dutch Brown"). Zeedman, I'd be forever grateful if you let me know if you find them!

Here is a possible clue. The Greek cooks at here and here state that the Greek "Gigantes" bean is a runner bean. This name is also protected by EU law so that people in Europe cannot label beans as "Gigantes" unless they are grown in a certain area in northern Greece where the growers are protected from competition.

Oh great, now I have to buy another bean book. ;-) Thanks, Flora, for the reference, I'm sure it will be a good read.

At this point, I am beginning to doubt that there is a true "pole cannellini". I think that it falls in that area of ambiguity occupied by white-seeded runner beans. Every time I track down a pole bean with large white seeds, it turns out to be a runner bean. Like "Pole Cannellini", "Greek Giant Lima" appears to be a white-seeded runner bean.

And still, I continue to get "runner beans" that turn out to be other species. My own research agrees with Flora; "Gigante" (or Gigande, or Hija) is a very large pole lima. And two years back, I received a "runner bean" which proved to be epigeal (the cotyledons emerged). Since runner beans are hypogeal like English peas, I destroyed the plants then... but I am growing it this year in isolation. Having observed the flowers & thin yellow(!) pods (and how it set them in hot weather) I would classify it as P. vulgaris.

Part of the problem, I think, is the bean lexicon (I hear echoes of Gardenlad whenever I say that). Runner beans are a species... but runner bean is also the general term for any bean with pole habit. IMO, this leads to too much confusion.

Maybe it is a lima. The climate around Kastoria would appear to be good for limas.

On the other hand, the EU regulation states that it is P. coccineus that originated in Mexico.

I think I may have some of these Gigante beans in my garden this year. Someone sent them to me as a bonus, saying they came from Greece. They were labeled "Cannellini".

All of them grew with the cotyledons below ground. I kind of forgot about them before reading this thread, so I'll have to check for flowers and pods.

Gary

I am going to make the assumption that the Gigande beans I have are the "Hija" or the lima bean version of the large white beans (I am growing three more that I know are runners). I will keep an eye on the epigeal/hypogeal feature as they sprout to tell if it is still another runner bean.

If I do indeed have the lima version, any idea if it will be a bush or a pole lima?

Will be on the lookout for a large podded white bean of the P vulgaris species, since P. vulgaris do the best here and produce the longest. Any luck with that anyone?

OK, cancel my question - I see that in another lima bean thread zeedman mentioned the Gigande lima being a pole lima. I guess I better plant them soon and trellis.

If your "Gigande" proves to be identical/similar to the "Hija" that I grew, it will require a very long season. Fortunately, Cabrita, you have that (says this Wisconsinite wistfully).

I've seen a very large lima sold in some ethnic food stores, I believe under the brand name Goya. It would be interesting to find out how similar they are to "Gigandes". If I can find them way out here, that would make them "widely available". ;-)

I trialed another good white-seeded pole bean last year, "Tetovac", a Serbian bean sent to me in trade. They are sold in bulk there commercially. Rather unusual, flat white seeds the size & shape of "Sieva" limas... but it is P. vulgaris. Very vigorous vines, and a decent yield. Haven't tried them in soup yet, so don't know how well they hold up; but they were easy to shell, and very good as shellies.

This year I will be growing a very large-seeded white bush bean (an heirloom, "Clem & Sarah's Big Bean", from Drloyd), but the search for a true "pole Cannellini" continues. Either of the two varieties I've mentioned might be acceptable substitutes.

Thanks for telling us about 'Tetovac' zeedman. I have lots of latin stores around so I will look for the large lima from Goya. Please do tell us if you find the elusive 'true' pole cannellini. As much as I like to try other legume species, the P. vulgaris do so well here and produce the longest. Peas do quite well too but in the winter, or whatever passes for winter around here (no complaints!).

How long is long? If I plant them this weekend do you think they will produce by November? We do have a long season, but not a long "hot" season.

If I am not mistaken, Cabrita, the coastal fogs should be burning off just about now, so this would be a good time to plant your limas. They should still have plenty of time to mature in your climate.

Adding to the white bean confusion:

"Cannellini" is a specific bush common bean also known as "white kidney bean" that I grow as a shelly.

"Cannellini" is also unfortunately is used to describe most any large white seeded bean except possibly Lima beans. Therefore the concept of a "pole cannellini" will forever remain elusive or even meaningless. I know that is a dismal view, but it seems to be the way it is. ;-)

"Brita's Foot Long" is a very fine pole shelly or dry bean that could be renamed "pole cannellini" so we could have a pole cannellini. ;D

"Monteges del Gaxnet" is favorite in Spain. It has more of a curve that kidney types. I am trialing it this year, a year even more difficult here than 2008 was. Our spring has been incredibly wet and colder than parts of Siberia and Alaska. So it is not really getting a fair trial.

More confusion:

"Bond's Orcas Lima" is a very early pole runner with large seeds and good eating quality. It easily produced mature seed here in the PNW even in a very difficult year like 2008.

"Bianco di Spagna" or "Italian Butter Bean" is sold by seed companies as a common bean but it is a runner with huge shellies up to 1-3/4 inches long. It is fairly late but does produce mature seed here in the PNW.

"Cannellini Gigante" is a pole runner with very large seeds that will produce dry seed here. Good shellies.

"Delucci Cannellini" is a pole runner that will produce dry seed here. Very large and good quality shellies.

"Gigantes" is a very large seeded pole runner bean that is only grown in a specific region in Greece. The name is protected by EU law so if you grow these in other parts of the EU, you have to call them something else.

"Gigandes" is a large seeded Lima that is sold by that name by Purcell Mountain Farms. It makes an outstanding bean soup with little added to it besides onion and salt. I have about 2 gallons of it on cooking this morning. I would love to be able to grow that one.- Dick

""Brita's Foot Long" is a very fine pole shelly or dry bean that could be renamed "pole cannellini" so we could have a pole cannellini. ;D"

I second the motion. It's probably as close as we are likely to get to the bush variety. The fact that it is tasty & highly productive doesn't hurt either. Tip o' the hat to Salt Spring Seeds in Canada for introducing it, too bad they no longer ship to the States.

Hmmmmmm, I alway buy my garlic from Salt Spring Seeds, I'll be sending Dan some of my Italian beans to trial this fall sooooo maybe I should order some Brita's :).

Annette

I love it when some of these old threads get linked to, as this just was. It provides a chance to update them with new info.

One other bean has surfaced as a good "pole Cannellini" substitute - "Tarbais". Like "Gigandes", it is a geographically-protected name in the E.U. This is another good white-seeded P. vulgaris pole bean. There is a GW thread on it, link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tarbais

Where would a Southern bean collector get Gigantes?
zeedman,
It would be wonderful if you could list your 10 best types of bean & a source to buy them for us beginners( on a new thread).
I have raised beans/peas all my live, but only the common types.
Thank you for all that you do for the bean world.

Jolj, you would get Gigantes on ebay right now. Just put this in the search string:
(gigantes,yigandes,gigandes)

Include the parenthesis

DarJones

Now 2 years later, just received some Cannellini Runner Pole beans from Mandy's Greenhouse, business closing May 2014. Will grow out and report. Think it will be interesting because in the description, "Not to be confused with other lima varieties". Other comments, Plants to 6' plus, 90 days, said to have come originally from Argentina. Seeds are large, white, slightly elongated.

Frances

Here is a link that might be useful: Mandy's Greenhouse Beans Page

'Cannellini White Runner' from Mandy's Greenhouse. Not the best pic but it will give you an idea of what the seed looks like.

I wonder if those are the same "Runner Cannellinis" that Chili Smith sells. I bought a 25# sack last year. They were wonderful beans, plump, tender, and tasty. They made a great snack, served hot or cold, with a liberal splash of good olive oil.

Chili Smith's runner cannellinis

Chili Smith's runner cannellinis in my eyes looks more like a coccineus than vulgaris, but that just my take on it. Here's a pic of the Greek Gigandes a P. coccineus mixed with the pole Cannellinis P. vulgaris I bought from Mandy's Greenhouse. Quite a size difference. I think Gigandes or Gigantes are often referred to as Cannellinis, makes for a lot of confusion.

Annette